Well I have played D&D off and on since 1981 or 82 kinda hard to remember back that far. I see where everyone is coming from there are multiple way's to play I remember when a +1 longsword was like getting a Holy Avenger because you did not see much magic. But the way monsters are designed now some you cannot even hit without a certain kind of weapon and we do not always have that certain weapon. And I would not mind playing under any DM as long as he was open minded.Everyone keeps saying your the DM change the rule to fit do not just change it without Discussing it with the player's That is all I was saying.
And I do understand having a background explains alot of your abilities and how you turned out in game to be what you are but it is not the end all be all of D&D. I would like to have the shiny magic sword too and since it is me who is investing his time as well as my DM and the group we all should get what we want like Joe said we are supposed to win but not always.
And please do not using magic makes it easier to win and you do not need tactics. I have had plenty of Characters killed in this group that was loaded with stuff and never even got a chance to use them. To farewell I was not even refering to you in my other other post it was another poster that got my blood boiling.
Sorry if I offended anyone it was not my intent I was just defending my group and the way we play.
I will....I wasn't trying to insinuate that you guys don't use tactics, I was just saying that in my game the players don't have a choice, and running away is a legitimate tactic, he he.
Just tell your buddy Ika to go easy on us soft-hearted dictators, LOL....
I will take it easy lol. No hard feelings.
I used to play with a DM that kept our Character sheets and would give us what Proficiency(1stedition) he thought we deserved and not let us pick heck he had all the books. I enjoyed that game but I still would have liked to picked my own stuff. That is where I am coming from so that is where the Dictatorship thing came from.
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Hope I don't go off topic a little too much, but I have a question that relates to the whole math vs. character.
See, as some who have read past posts of mine (including the AOW obits) is that I don't pull punches. That just isn't me. The problem that I'm having is that while my players are interesting, and can play interesting characters, the depth of the characters is lacking. This is due to the high death rate. They spend a little bit more time on the math side of things rather than character, mostly because they have little faith in their characters (though the current ones have done very well and work very well.. good tactics).
How do other DM's deal with the Math vs. RP debate with character death? I'm stating this without saying "flub the dice rolls and always let the characters live". Just wondering, because I've wondered about it for awhile.
Also, just an extra note, thanks for the heads up about these abilities. I'm going to adopt the whole "only one +2000 gp" solution that someone mentioned.
How do other DM's deal with the Math vs. RP debate with character death?
Using action points helps players that sacrifice Math in favor of RP. In certain dire situations, that action point goes a long way.
Hope I don't go off topic a little too much, but I have a question that relates to the whole math vs. character.
See, as some who have read past posts of mine (including the AOW obits) is that I don't pull punches. That just isn't me. The problem that I'm having is that while my players are interesting, and can play interesting characters, the depth of the characters is lacking. This is due to the high death rate. They spend a little bit more time on the math side of things rather than character, mostly because they have little faith in their characters (though the current ones have done very well and work very well.. good tactics).
I've noticed this in my group as well. If the players characters are dying the new ones are going to be maxed out as well as the players can make them. The higher the mortality the more your players are going to munchkin. I got no real solution and am not even sure if this bothers me that much but it does somewhat stunt things later in the campaign as things tend to move out of the dungeon and more into interaction with NPCs and such - meanwhile your players are busy min-maxing 'cause this guy is not going to suffer the fate of my last character'.
Your second (and bigger) problem is simple party strength. I don't know what race your paladin is, or what level of play you are used to, but the game is designed around a 25 point-build. Thats what the monsters use. Thats what the game designers and adventure writers have to use. I switched to point build a while back because it balances things out a bit and puts each player on a level playing field with the other players. Admittedly, I use a 32 point-build. I run hard campaigns, and I like to see PC's really churn out good characters. In point-buy, an ability score of 18 costs 16 points. With 25 points to spend (or even 32), you can see how rare a character with an 18 would be. Ability scores in my games (before racial bonuses) usually cap out between 14 and 16. So your paladin found another way to exploit his obscenely high 20 Charisma: is the problem the magic item, which would only be good for a round or two in normal level play, or your paladin's (and I assume the rest of the group's) ability scores?my two coppers, for what they are worth...
-Ryn
No perfect solution for more powerful characters but I wanted my players to have good stats and give them a very forgiving rolling system that results in characters with a number of good stats. +6 is pretty much minimium in terms of total bonus and +10 not unheard of.
What I did is stopped using average hps per die for the monsters. Give them 3/4s max or even max and it mitigates this issue to a fair extent. Low level monsters are somewhat underpowered (8hps just is not much more then 5) but otherwise it mostly works - and your players get some pretty impressive characters in the deal - something thats often pretty populer among players.
I've been thinking about an idea I got from another post here--don't remember who, or I'd give credit for the idea.
I'm thinking about allowing PC's who get to 10th level a chance to fight their way back to the material plane after dying if they have no other way to get raised from the dead. Give them some difficult side quest in the afterlife and if they succeed they can come back to life--perhaps with some geas or quest put on them by their deity or whatever.
Just a thought.
I'm thinking about allowing PC's who get to 10th level a chance to fight their way back to the material plane after dying if they have no other way to get raised from the dead. Give them some difficult side quest in the afterlife and if they succeed they can come back to life--perhaps with some geas or quest put on them by their deity or whatever.Just a thought.
That sounds damn sweet!
Very inventive/original. I raise my stein of Mead to you SALUTE!As for the others, my friends and I have a philosophy. The DM starts out pulling for the players. Just enough to help them build up their character experience and what not. Then once the PCs reach a certain level the gloves sort of come off. The DM is no longer "working with" the characters, but completely against them. Granted you may think this goes against the rules, and makes the game a little less challenging, but it doesn't. It makes for great roleplaying and character building. I have played characters that have made it all the way to 20th level before, and that doesn't mean they didn't die. they may have died a couple of times and the rest have been pretty much knocked on their ass and had to be saved by some NPC. But it made for a great game. The DM may fudge the dice at first, granted it also depends on the situation. A first level character that walks into the lair of a Red dragon will always die! So players must be reasonable too.
I guess what I am getting at is that DMs though they have the power to do pretty much anything, work better when what they do makes sense in relation to the plot the adventure is taking. Just the way I think.
Later
I'd second the use of Action points. It takes out some of the bad rolling problem and helps when the players have over estimated their abilities. It allows the players to role play more and worry less about some of the number things.
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I don't use Action Points, per se, but for years have had a table rule of "Third Time Counts No Matter What". There are plenty of dramatic moments in a game where rolling crappy knocks the wind out of everyone. When I sense this is the case, I'll make the offer to the player which is usually accepted. So they roll the d20 a second time and ignore that roll. They roll a third time and that's the result of the action no matter what. Generally I allow it once per game per character in those uber-dramatic-climax situations. This idea works well, giving the player a chance to be heroic still. Some sessions the rule will be invoked but I've also gone numerous sessions without needing to.
I'm thinking about allowing PC's who get to 10th level a chance to fight their way back to the material plane after dying if they have no other way to get raised from the dead. Give them some difficult side quest in the afterlife and if they succeed they can come back to life--perhaps with some geas or quest put on them by their deity or whatever.
Just a thought.
This is a great idea... did you have any quest outlines in mind?
Well, I got the idea from someone else on these boards (I cannot find the original thread??), so I hadn't really given it too much thought. However, I think something tied to the deity or extraplanar patron that finally sends the dead PC back to the material plane.
I'm thinking that higher level PC's might be given "hit-man" missions to take out powerful extraplanar creatures on the material plane that are opposed to the PC's religion or deity.
They're given a year to accomplish the goal, which might be a huge undertaking or simply a tough fight. It might be cool that until they accomplish their mission, that the PC temporarily acquire an appropriate extraplanar template.
While "dead" and in one of the outer planes, they would also be given a puzzle or cryptic quest to follow to lead them to their benefactor that will send them back.
Such a puzzle or extraplanar quest could be played out by e-mail between the DM and the player whose character died in between gaming sessions so as not to take time away from the regular game.
BTW Alasani--thanks for the mug of mead salute..if you're ever in the El Paso, TX area let me know, 'cuz I homebrew my own mead..LOL