Had this come up in yesterdays game. The party happened to overhear a conversation in which they learned the true name of a demon they will likely have to fight later on in the adventure. The folks @ WotC tried to be helpful when I called, but the reality is that they have not addressed this question yet in v3.5 books.
So... In your own campaigns, what special powers/favors/protections does knowing a demons true name give your players? I have told the group I would come up with something by next session (next friday), and really would like to hear from all of you out there.
Tanks - Rath
I think they can banish, dismiss, gate, trap the soul him without a save and sr, they can also bargain:"If you don't obey we will tell your name to X"; tricky with a demon but they can always try.
Yeah, what he said.
Seriously ... being able to banish/dismiss, recall/summon, trap, etc. work perfectly when you know the demon's true name (under certain circumstances I might allow a reduced saving throw but would not allow any SR to block efforts).
I also like the idea of using it as a bargaining chip (information like a true name is kept secret for a reason so obviously the demon wouldn't want it revealed) but you'd have to succeed on your diplomacy because the player's knowledge paints that much bigger of a target on him. "Why bargain with you pathetic mortal, when I can just as easily squash you and be done with it?"
Wasn’t there an article in a dragon magazine sometime back about the power of a demon’s name and what it meant to know the true name of a demon? I took a look through my back issues but can’t seem to find it. Will keep looking
Saying the true name of a creature does a few things. Mostly treat it as a Dominate Monster spell with no will save possible. Once dominated as such you can order it to do anything from something against it's very nature or stop it's heart with a thought. True names are extremely powerful and shouldn't be given out lightly.
I would agree with most of the posts here concerning a true name. I am currently in a campaign with a good GM and we have had to deal with a demon from the Nazumi (sp?) pantheon. It turned out to be one of the higher demons which required us to learn it's true name in order to banish it. Also in games that I have played when the subject of summoning a greater to greatest demon has come up the only way to do so was by using it's true name.
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Royster is correct, there was an article on True names and fetishes several months ago. I don't know the issue of the top of my head, but can look for it.
Another important aspect of knowing the True name is that you will immediately make quite an enemy of that entity. If the demon/outsider is of greater power than the party, it would seek to destroy them (possibly through a proxy who will be unlikely to find out the name) rather than letting them use it casually. If it is of lesser power, it will try no end of machinations to kill off whoever knows it, because ultimately, the True Name holds everything of power about the demon in verbal form. It is completely at the mercy/domination of whoever knows that name.
Royster is correct, there was an article on True names and fetishes several months ago. I don't know the issue of the top of my head, but can look for it.
I think it was #317, the one with the tiger person on the front.
Gav is right too, Enmity is scary.
Adding to the enmity piece of the equation - demons (at least moderately powerful ones and above) don't operate in a vaccuum, they have relationships, alliances, minions, souls bound to service, and money (and or favors) - to hire mortal assistance. Thus is a demon knows someone has its "True Name" as a bargaining chip - things could get pretty unpleasant for that inividual pretty fast. Merely through the demons agents. If it were my game players would be much more likely to run into minions/agents than the demon itself.
Further, even a foolish demon that liked to broadcast its prowess, deeds, power, to try to get and get famous would probably has several false "true names" out in the marketplace (so to speak). These false true names may very well be magical for example:
They keep the demon informed as to the speakers whereabouts and activities.
When spoken they drain xp from the speaker and confer it to the demon.
They make the speaker more susceptible to the demon's own magic.
Also a demon may very well fake being influenced by a false true name in order to suck in the speaker.
As others have said finding a REAL true name would (in my game at least) be very difficult.
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Mongoose Publishing has a Slayer's Guide to Demons which I rather like. It has a good discussion about demonic names and their order of magnitude, with True Names being most important. If you don't want to buy it, you may want to give it a quick perusal at your FLGS.
It also has a good discussion about the importance of souls to demons, which I would think could come into immediate relavance for your players! ;-)
This stuff has been great so far guys, I have a few ideas about what to do now.
Keep it coming though!
I suspect my players will try to "Banish" (per the spell) the demon, who by the way, is a Vrock. However, they have a bit of a bloodthirsty streak and may just try to beat it down. This could be a disaster due to the fact that they are around 7th lvl. Should I lower its SR and DR for having it's true name? What about compulsion spells/enchantments?
Also, how much of this would the local priests and wizards be able to tell them? The city they are researching all of this in has a 9th lvl Wiz and 9th lvl priests of Pelor and Heironeous.
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I suspect my players will try to "Banish" (per the spell) the demon, who by the way, is a Vrock. However, they have a bit of a bloodthirsty streak and may just try to beat it down. This could be a disaster due to the fact that they are around 7th lvl.Even potentially worse for them than that... If they do just do a banishment or if they 'kill' it, it will only be dispersed from the Material plane to return Abyss and plot very evil, nasty, bloody revenge. And, barring an accident/attack of some kind while he's gulaged in the Abyss, he won't die, just plot revenge for generations.
Of course what intelligent players will be doing is that they get some kind of insurance...some way how, if they are killed, the name will get around or such things (interesting take of dealing with demons is presented in book Amulet of Samarkand by Jonathan Stroud).
Basic concept in word magic is that knowing the true name or history of an entity gives you power over that entity. Still, it's only a tool giving mere mortals just an edge and not supreme power. I would suggest that knowing the true name of a demon lets the person banish and summon that demon without saves or such, gives a minus to saves for other spells (so the characters still should know that "dominate" spell...and not dabble with powers too powerful) and bonus for their own saves against spells and effects of that demon.
In actual melee there would be no effect (but with knowledge of that true name some weapons intended specifically for slaying that demon can be forged).
This should give your characters an edge while still not being too powerful (remember all those cautionary tales of foolish demon summoning...)
Oh, and if you want to be nasty you could consider that another concept of word magic...true names should be used with caution since they draw attention of their owners. So saying that name aloud, even in their private conversation, might give that demon a possibility for eavesdropping...
i say the true name gives you complete and absolute control over the entity. In the 2nd expansion set of NeverWinter Nights, you get your hands on some true names and can even command the people to forget evil past dedds or even when you command this one guy to throw away all the evil within him, black ooze comes out of his mouth and hes all good then.
Just wanted to say thanks to all who posted to this inquiry.
As a note to how this will all play out - Will be giving the players a bit of a shock as it is safe to post now that the name they recieved was in fact not the demons "True Name". Silly players, they can come to the most amusing conclusions!
Let the carnage ensue! (Insert evil DM laugh here)
- Rath
I wrote up a monster called a kerexoloth:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/free/motm/motm4_kerexoloth.html
One of its hooks is that it likes to learn the truenames of other creatures, and once it has done so it gets bonuses against that creature (such as a bonus to DCs).
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In my campaigns, having a Demons "true" name means nothing for if ever the character/s run against one they should consider themselves in deep doo-doo. Only someone specifically trained to deal with demons like the demonologist, clerics, etc, would or could have use for said names. In fact, everytime a character/s verbalizes a demons "true" name (who isnt appropriately trained), there is a percentage roll for the demon to send appropriate forces to take care of said character/s. My 2 cents.
Thoth-Amon the Atlantian Mindflayerian
In my campaigns, having a Demons "true" name means nothing for if ever the character/s run against one they should consider themselves in deep doo-doo. Only someone specifically trained to deal with demons like the demonologist, clerics, etc, would or could have use for said names. In fact, everytime a character/s verbalizes a demons "true" name (who isnt appropriately trained), there is a percentage roll for the demon to send appropriate forces to take care of said character/s. My 2 cents.
Thoth-Amon the Atlantian Mindflayerian
I like what everyone else has said here, and I will use selected parts in my campaign. But, I really have to come down on the side of Conan's nemesis here. If a PC were not specifically trained to beat up demons, any attempted use of a true name would be get squishy really, really fast.
Did you see the move PI? 'They' said God's true name can be found in the digits of PI = 3.14159264.....
Sorry you cannot wait till March 2006 for your answer but I beleive that is the relase month for:
Tome of Magic: Pact, Shadow, and True Name Magic by Matthew Sernett, Dave Noonan, Ari Marmell, Robert J. Schwalb.
This book should answer all our questions when it comes out.
Sorry you cannot wait till March 2006 for your answer but I beleive that is the relase month for:
Tome of Magic: Pact, Shadow, and True Name Magic by Matthew Sernett, Dave Noonan, Ari Marmell, Robert J. Schwalb.
This book should answer all our questions when it comes out.
Wow, that sounds good (I hope it is not stupid.)
Plus, I hope they read H.P. Lovecraft's "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward", and the rest of his circle-writer's works. There is already a heap of sophisticated lore in the 'Call of Cthuluhu' mythos concerning summoning demons, and what they are good for other than cheap sex.
It has not come up in our campaign - yet - but the way I intend to handle true names is as follows:
The summoning character who uses the True Name of a creature in the incantation gets that specific demon, but without all the icky side effects of it being bent on their destruction - at least not right away... The demon would have all its offensive capibilities, but NONE of its defensive ones, which would include spell resistance/immunity, damage deduction, translocation magics. In addition, the demon cannot use any charms/compulsions on the summoning PC and loses its ability to re-materialize in the abyss if it is 'killed' on the prime material plane while under the summoning - that's right, a true death.
This should mean that the person doing to summoning must still be careful lest the Demon just kill him and be done with it, but also that the demon must weigh the true consequences of defeat and subsequent non-existance. So if the PC and his party just wanted to banish it, they would not have to overcome spell resistance to do so. If they instead wanted to end the threat of this particular demon - forever - then they could attack and it would be significantly easier to kill it due to its lack of defensive magics and innate abilities. The Demon would definately sense this and act accordingly - probably with initial 'Genie-like' service and eventually trying to turn the PC and any allies toward evil.
Celric
Had this come up in yesterdays game. The party happened to overhear a conversation in which they learned the true name of a demon they will likely have to fight later on in the adventure. The folks @ WotC tried to be helpful when I called, but the reality is that they have not addressed this question yet in v3.5 books.
So... In your own campaigns, what special powers/favors/protections does knowing a demons true name give your players? I have told the group I would come up with something by next session (next friday), and really would like to hear from all of you out there.
Tanks - Rath
In Arcana Evolved knowing a creatures true name gives out bonus to spells mostly. I've never really introduced teh mechanic before but I'd probably go along the same lines. Know their true name and maybe their SR is eliminated or halved.
The other famous thing about knowing a DM or Devils True name is that people summon them and control them with that - so if your PCs have powerful enough magic they should be able to summon the DM who's true name they know and control said demon. I'd always assumed that this was what was taking place when those poor lesser devels were summoned - via spell or magical research teh characters now knew some lesser demons true name and this summoned it.
I'd make it irrelivent for basic brawling as true names are usually tied up in magic. However if the PCs use the true name in the presence of the Demon it'll surely try its very hardest to kill them as it would know that they potentially can summon and bind it against its will.
I thought the Book of Exalted Deeds had something about True Names in it in the section about Words of Creation. I don't have my books in front of me, but I thought I saw something there.
I thought the Book of Exalted Deeds had something about True Names in it in the section about Words of Creation. I don't have my books in front of me, but I thought I saw something there.
Page 32 of Exalted Deeds. It requires a lot of time to research True Names and the benefits are dubious.
-4 on creatures saving throw to resist compulsion spell or effect.Reduce spell resistance by 4 or reduce damage reduction by 5, for one minute.
Cast teleport or greater teleport on the creature without including herself as a target of the spell.
Gain a +6 bonus on her opposed CHA check to compel service after she summons it with a planar binding spell.
Each action takes one full round and deals 5d4 nonlethal damage to the caster.
Hope that helps