When recharging multiple random cards, can I look at the cards after they've been selected at random to determine the order in which they are recharged?
Best answer I've come across was in an FAQ for RotR in regards to "random" cards (sorry, I don't know how to link) where we were instructed to shuffle the appropriate deck/hand and then draw the necessary number of cards at random, which leads me to believe that we can look at them afterwards. But this would seem to make Drelm's last power on his Keymaster role card extremely overpowered. If he had zero cards in his discard pile, he could opt to discard his entire deck and then choose the order in which they were recharged.
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I've always played such things as if I could not determine the order. In other words "Recharge 3 random cards" to mean means that the cards are random and their order is random. I treat them as a set, where I can't change the order.
I've always played such things as if I could not determine the order. In other words "Recharge 3 random cards" to mean means that the cards are random and their order is random. I treat them as a set, where I can't change the order.
This is an elegant interpretation and feels in accordance with the designer's intent. As always, thanks, Hawkmoon.
As a side note, I initially felt like this Drelm power was very weak, but it suddenly occurred to me how it could be utilized to get all your blessings of Abadar back to the top of your deck. Keymaster, indeed!
I play the same way as Hawkmoon, the order is determined randomly. That being said, I do also play that I get to see which cards I randomly chose before I shove them in the bottom of my deck (or shuffle them into the deck), so in the case of recharging while I couldn't choose the cards or the order, I would know what cards they are and what order they are in.
"At the start of your turn, you may discard any number of cards from the top of your deck to allow a character at your location to recharge a random card from her discard pile for each card discarded"
What are the limits of Drelm using this power on himself? Originally, I thought he could use this power even if he had zero cards in his discard pile, but I don't think that's correct because of the rule that using powers and playing cards must have an immediate effect.
But what if there's one card in my discard pile? Can I choose to discard ten cards from my deck? The first card I discard would have the immediate effect of recharging a random card...but are my only options the card that was originally in my discard pile? Or is the card I just discarded now in the mix? Either way, now I discard the second card from my deck and it still has an immediate effect cause there's still another card in my discard pile. So on and so forth, and I've now just recharged ten cards from my deck when only one card started in my discard pile.
Some clarity on this rule as it applies to Drelm using it on himself would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action. For example, if a card says “Recharge this card to recharge a card from your discard pile,” recharge the card you’re playing before recharging the card from your discard pile.
You discard all the cards before you recharge any of them, so the discarded cards are in the mix. If you have 1 card in your discard pile and choose to discard 10 cards, you now have 11 cards in your discard pile. At that point, you randomly choose 10 of those 11 cards to recharge.
I've always played such things as if I could not determine the order. In other words "Recharge 3 random cards" to mean means that the cards are random and their order is random. I treat them as a set, where I can't change the order.
Actually, I'd like something official on that power, as one way or the other, it will greatly impact its usefulness.
I too consider the recharged card as being a 'set'. However, Hawkmoon's reading is exactly the opposite of what I think a 'set is. In his reading, the power is parsed as such:
1) Discard X card from top of your deck
2) Draw 1 (ONE!) random card and recharge it
3) Repeat step 2) until X cards are recharged
My reading is:
1) Discard X card from top of your deck
2) Draw X random cards (finish one thing before another, Skizzers' quote right above this post)
3) Recharge the whole 'set' of drawn cards (simultaneously, ergo you chose the order)
Furthermore, Hawkmoon's reading seems to imply the correct procedure for playing a Cure (for example), is:
1) Roll 1d4+1
2) Draw 1d4+1 cards from your discard pile
3) Shuffle 1 of the drawn cards into your deck
4) Repeat 3) as necessary
Sure, such a procedure wouldn't really matter for the order of the healed cards in your deck, as they all end up shuffled. However, it would matter in case of power like "When you shuffle a deck, do whatever".
I've always played such things as if I could not determine the order. In other words "Recharge 3 random cards" to mean means that the cards are random and their order is random. I treat them as a set, where I can't change the order.Actually, I'd like something official on that power, as one way or the other, it will greatly impact its usefulness.
I too consider the recharged card as being a 'set'. However, Hawkmoon's reading is exactly the opposite of what I think a 'set is. In his reading, the power is parsed as such:
1) Discard X card from top of your deck
2) Draw 1 (ONE!) random card and recharge it
3) Repeat step 2) until X cards are rechargedMy reading is:
1) Discard X card from top of your deck
2) Draw X random cards (finish one thing before another, Skizzers' quote right above this post)
3) Recharge the whole 'set' of drawn cards (simultaneously, ergo you chose the order)Furthermore, Hawkmoon's reading seems to imply the correct procedure for playing a Cure (for example), is:
1) Roll 1d4+1
2) Draw 1d4+1 cards from your discard pile
3) Shuffle 1 of the drawn cards into your deck
4) Repeat 3) as necessarySure, such a procedure wouldn't really matter for the order of the healed cards in your deck, as they all end up shuffled. However, it would matter in case of power like "When you shuffle a deck, do whatever".
Your first sequence is correct for Drelm's power, because the power tells you to recharge a random card for each card you discarded. That means that you recharge 1 card at a time, and repeat that for as many cards as you discarded.
If you were told to recharge multiple random cards at once, I don't think it's defined in the rulebook either way (couldn't find anything relevant from a quick read-through). I guess, pick the one that works best for your group until Vic says otherwise.
Your first sequence is correct for Drelm's power, because the power tells you to recharge a random card for each card you discarded. That means that you recharge 1 card at a time, and repeat that for as many cards as you discarded.
Looking over the power again, I'm inclined to agree, but mostly because - as Cax points out- the opposite would mean at start of game Drelm would be able to arrange his whole deck to his liking, not because the meaning of the wording is immediately obvious.
So, if we do get any official input on the whole 'recharge random cards' thing, I guess I would reframe my question thus:
If a power instructs me to "Recharge X random cards from you discard pile" - do we get to set the order of those cards?
I'm inclined to agree with Hawk's interpretation and carrying over the "randomness" of the recharged cards and also randomizing the order in which they're recharged.
Still curious if Devs intended Drelm to be able to recharge a large portion of his deck, though.
I thought that whenever a power said to do something with X cards that in all cases where it makes a difference you should interpret it as doing one thing X times. Which means random order effectively, though at least you can look at what the order is.
For example, when you reveal the top X cards of a deck, you technically reveal them one at a time for the purpose of triggers. Though obviously you don't just look at the same top card X times.
Also note that if they wanted to let you choose the order then technically they could say something like "Choose X random cards from your hand, then recharge them".
I thought that whenever a power said to do something with X cards that in all cases where it makes a difference you should interpret it as doing one thing X times. Which means random order effectively, though at least you can look at what the order is.
For example, when you reveal the top X cards of a deck, you technically reveal them one at a time for the purpose of triggers. Though obviously you don't just look at the same top card X times.
That is a distinction that would be nice if they addressed. In my example where Drelm decides to discard ten cards, discarding/recharging one card at a time would mean that the tenth card you discarded could never be the first you recharged. On the other hand, if you discarded ten cards and then shuffled them to determine the random recharge order, it could be.
I thought that whenever a power said to do something with X cards that in all cases where it makes a difference you should interpret it as doing one thing X times. Which means random order effectively, though at least you can look at what the order is.
For example, when you reveal the top X cards of a deck, you technically reveal them one at a time for the purpose of triggers. Though obviously you don't just look at the same top card X times.
Also note that if they wanted to let you choose the order then technically they could say something like "Choose X random cards from your hand, then recharge them".
There is a rule that you examine cards one at a time if you are told to examine multiple cards, but that rule only applies to examining cards. In all other cases, fall back to cards do what they say and cards don't do what they don't say -- if the card says to do something with X cards, you do it with all of those cards simultaneously. If the card says to do something with 1 card X times, you do it with each card individually.
Chief Technical Officer
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There is a rule that you examine cards one at a time if you are told to examine multiple cards, but that rule only applies to examining cards. In all other cases, fall back to cards do what they say and cards don't do what they don't say -- if the card says to do something with X cards, you do it with all of those cards simultaneously. If the card says to do something with 1 card X times, you do it with each card individually.
This is my current belief, but we will discuss it.
That is a distinction that would be nice if they addressed. In my example where Drelm decides to discard ten cards, discarding/recharging one card at a time would mean that the tenth card you discarded could never be the first you recharged. On the other hand, if you discarded ten cards and then shuffled them to determine the random recharge order, it could be.
In that example, at most you would discard 10 cards one at a time then recharge 10 cards one at a time. I don't see any justification for mixing and re-ordering the two separate actions.
Sounds like I was just interpreting a special case as a more general principle in any case.
Assumptions:
1) They wanted to give Drelm the option to use this power for himself. Otherwise, the power would have read "another character at your location" instead of "a character."
2) They wanted to maintain the common theme of knowing the order in which your cards are recharged. Vic admitted himself in another post that he recharges cards face-up until he has to shuffle his deck, because if he had a perfect memory he would always know where each card was anyway. But they do want the cards chosen at random.
3) They did not want Drelm to be able to discard a large portion of his deck and determine the order in which those cards were recharged, essentially setting up his entire deck.
4) They wanted to give other players the option of recharging a certain number of cards regardless of how many cards Drelm decided to discard. Otherwise they wouldn't have used words like "allow a character" and "for each card discarded."
Possible Solution:
"At the start of your turn, you may discard one card (or any number of cards) from the top of your deck to allow a character at your location to recharge up to that number of other random cards from her discard pile."
Thoughts?
Possible Solution:
"At the start of your turn, you may discard one card (or any number of cards) from the top of your deck to allow a character at your location to recharge up to that number of other random cards from her discard pile."
Thoughts?
The last part of that wording means you will never be able to recharge the cards you discarded to activate the power.
The last part of that wording means you will never be able to recharge the cards you discarded to activate the power.Possible Solution:
"At the start of your turn, you may discard one card (or any number of cards) from the top of your deck to allow a character at your location to recharge up to that number of other random cards from her discard pile."
Thoughts?
Correct, in order to fulfill the third assumption.
Why not just add "Then that player shuffles her deck." at the end of the power?
Because that would make the power much too powerful. The cxards you discard aren't supposed to have a chance to get immediately back on top of your deck.
I've always played such things as if I could not determine the order. In other words "Recharge 3 random cards" to mean means that the cards are random and their order is random. I treat them as a set, where I can't change the order.Actually, I'd like something official on that power, as one way or the other, it will greatly impact its usefulness.
I too consider the recharged card as being a 'set'. However, Hawkmoon's reading is exactly the opposite of what I think a 'set is. In his reading, the power is parsed as such:
1) Discard X card from top of your deck
2) Draw 1 (ONE!) random card and recharge it
3) Repeat step 2) until X cards are rechargedMy reading is:
1) Discard X card from top of your deck
2) Draw X random cards (finish one thing before another, Skizzers' quote right above this post)
3) Recharge the whole 'set' of drawn cards (simultaneously, ergo you chose the order)Furthermore, Hawkmoon's reading seems to imply the correct procedure for playing a Cure (for example), is:
1) Roll 1d4+1
2) Draw 1d4+1 cards from your discard pile
3) Shuffle 1 of the drawn cards into your deck
4) Repeat 3) as necessarySure, such a procedure wouldn't really matter for the order of the healed cards in your deck, as they all end up shuffled. However, it would matter in case of power like "When you shuffle a deck, do whatever".
I know this has aged a bit, but I've been busy the last week or so. To clarify, this is what I meant:
Drelm chooses how many cards he will discard. He then randomly gets the same number of cards from his discard pile. The order he pulled them from his discard in is the order he puts them on the bottom of the deck.
This would technically be something like this:
Step 1: Discard X cards.
Step 2: Flip discard pile face down and shuffle it.
Step 3: Pick the top X card from discard pile. Look at them if you want, then in the same order they came off the discard pile, put them on the bottom of your deck.
Step 4: Flip discard pile face up.
Cure would be the same, but I'd shuffle instead of recharge. Physically, I'm only making one hand motion to move cards from my discard pile to my deck. I take them as a group.