Evil Players....


3.5/d20/OGL


Shaun, a fellow classmate, asked if he may play in the small (test) group for D&D at school. I agreed, but he wished to ONLY play as an evil character. He wanted to become a Drow Blackguard, but alas, lackguards are prestige classes. So my question is this:
What class should evil players be?!? I mean, what can they be??? O.o"


What class should evil players be?!? I mean, what can they be???"

They can be just about anything, Rogues, and Barbarians seem the most logical fit.

Personally though I discourage evil players (maybe I would make exceptions if the group is exceptionally mature), I think it tends to makes for poor party dynamics especially if the "role play" aspect of the game is emphasized over combat. I for one really don't want to hear the kinds of destructive behaviors I associate with evil role played, I don't want my game bogged down by them either. The other thing to remember is that being Machevellian or trafficking with "Dark Powers" does not necessarily make one evil - and walking that line can be good role-play.

The other thing is of the player really wants to be a Blackguard, make him start as a paladin - make him gain some levels there and talk to him about how he plans to "fall" it will probably make for a better Blackguard (and he may find he likes being the knight in shining armor), and it will create a better fit for the rest of the party at the outset, especially if the rest of the party is good.

The other thing to consider is how big a role alignment plays in your game.

The other thing I might do (well I do it antway) is provide a background for the starting location and ask everyone to create a backstory to get there and a reason to work with each other. A group that makes sense together is more likely to gel.

My two coppers.

I hope that helps.


Drake_Ranger wrote:

Shaun, a fellow classmate, asked if he may play in the small (test) group for D&D at school. I agreed, but he wished to ONLY play as an evil character. He wanted to become a Drow Blackguard, but alas, lackguards are prestige classes. So my question is this:

What class should evil players be?!? I mean, what can they be??? O.o"

First off, don't let your players boss you around. If you don't want to have evil characters in your game, that's your call. He can either play by your rules or find another sandbox.

So, assuming you are okay with having evil in your group, the next issue is this: if you are running a 1st level adventure, a drow character is too powerful to have as a PC. In 3.5, drow have a level adjustment (LA) of +2, so a 1st level character has an effective character level (ECL) of 3. Level adjustments are "phantom levels" that the character does not get hit dice, skills, or other class abilities for to represent that he/she is just a more powerful race.

That all being said, (assuming you aren't too confused here, it took me a while to understand LA myself) you still have options. He can choose to be a standard elf from the PH, or perhaps try a level progression (see below).

Classwise... if he wants this character to become a blackguard, the blackguard has a few prerequisites: the character must be evil, have a base attack bonus of +6 or greater, have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, 2 or more in Knowledge (religion), the feats Cleave, Improved Sunder, and Power Attack, and have made peaceful contact with a summoned evil outsider.

Assuming male drow or either gender of standard elf (both favored class wizard), the fastest way to becoming a blackguard is: 3 levels in a class with Bluff as a class skill and average base attack bonus (Bard, Cleric with the Trickery domain, Rogue) alternating with 4 levels in a class with a good Base Attack Bonus (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin*, and Ranger).

The reason for needing 3 levels in a Bluff class is 1) having a skill be a class skill once means that you can always put maximum ranks in it for your character level (not ECL... character level is based only on the number of hit dice) though you still need to spend 2 points for 1 rank, and 2) to avoid multiclass XP penalties.

Of the Bluff class options, Cleric is best, as they can most easily fulfill the final prerequisite of becoming a blackguard: peaceful contact with a summoned evil outsider. Summon Monster II. Assuming this character is neutral evil or lawful evil, SM II (which can be cast by 3rd level clerics, or 4th level sorcerers) allows him to summon a lemure, the least form of devil. What he does then is up to him, but as long as the encounter with it isn't hostile, he's technically fulfilled that particular prerequisite.

A more spell-based Blackguard would have 4 levels in Sorcerer and 4 levels in a good base attack bonus class.

*If he chooses Paladin, he would have to take the Paladin's levels first so he doesn't incur as many XP penalties, and play a Lawful Good alignment while taking Paladin levels. He'd also have to have a reason for becoming evil. This makes for a dramatic option that may not be suitable for a player determined to be evil from step one.

The fastest path for a female drow (favored class Cleric) is one level in Cleric (with the Trickery domain) and 6 levels in a class with good base attack bonus. The setup is basically the same, but because of the female drow's favored class, more levels can be put toward a "tank" class. Since this option leaves the character's overall spell power very low (almost non-existant), she'll have to find some other way to satisfy the final prerequisite of blackguard.

So back to drow. If he's very sure that the standard elf won't work for him, here's a level progression: (quoted from WotC's Savage Progressions page, with notes in parentheses.)

Drow Base Racial Features (treat as any other base race)

All of the following are base racial abilities for the drow.

Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence.

Size: Drow are Medium size.

Speed: Drow base land speed is 30 feet.

Proficiencies: A drow is proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword.

Dancing Lights (Sp): A drow may use dancing lights (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day.

Darkvision (Ex): A drow has darkvision to a 60-foot range.

Immunities (Ex): A drow is immune to magic sleep effects.

Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds a drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, he is dazzled as long as he remains in the affected area.

Skill Bonuses: A drow has a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. Furthermore, a drow who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if he were actively looking for it.

Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin.

Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). A multiclass drow's wizard or cleric class (male or female, respectively) does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies.

Table SP-20: The Drow Racial Class (The character must take these "phantom levels" at 2nd and 3rd level, in place of his standard progression. He gains the abilities listed, and is treated as having leveled up for purposes of experience earned and needed, but that's it. The original table also included the modification the the character's Challenge Rating, but that's not important for a PC and confuses the issues. As a quick note, CR is only important for DMs, and only monsters and other NPCs have it)

Level Special
~ 1st Darkvision 120 ft., faerie fire, spell resistance (5 + character level)
~ 2nd Cha +2, darkness, saving throw bonuses, spell resistance (11 + character level)

Drow Racial Class Features (The levels referred to here mean how many levels the character has in the drow level progression; e.g. a 1st level Cleric, 1st level Drow is an effective 2nd level character)

All of the following are class features of the drow racial class.

Darkvision (Ex): A 1st-level drow's darkvision range increases to 120 feet.

Faerie Fire (Sp): At 1st level, the drow may use faerie fire (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day.

Spell Resistance (Su): At 1st level, the drow gains spell resistance equal to 5 + character level. At 2nd level, her spell resistance increases to 11 + character level.

Darkness (Sp): At 2nd level, the drow may use darkness (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day.

Saving Throw Bonuses (Ex): At 2nd level, a drow gains a +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.

-----------------------
So that's it. If you have any other questions or if I've confused you, don't hesitate to ask.


At the present, I have an evil player in my group. He plays a human, fighter (neutral evil). At the beginning (around 1st level), he was in it for the money. He was actually hired by the group as a mercenary. He didn't really care what happened to the others, he was just a brute. Now he's realizing that there are greater evils in the world, and that defeating them will bring him fame, fortune and power.

Who knows, maybe his PC will become an evil NPC in a future campaign.

Ultradan

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Personally, I discourage evil PCs for one reason. they don't work well. A lot of players, even experienced ones, don't tend to play "evil". instead they are just snotty, arrogant, and rude. they don't do anything actually evil and that really annoys me.

then there are the few that do play the "evil". when you have a group that consists of various alignments it should only be a matter of time before the evil character does something that makes him/her leave the group (willing or not). Sometimes, this can come dangerously close to crossing the line between game and the real world when one player does things to the other characters or causes a disruption that screws things up. Players can get offended on a personal level, not just in the game. Trust me, I've seen it happen.

As for your player, find out why he is drawn to the Drow Blackguard and then come up with a path to lead him there. Make sure he understands what being evil in the game should be. Then you, as DM, have to be prepared to deal with the consequences.


I have enjoyed playing evil characters and have seen some very fine evil characters. But it is not easy.

Basically evil characters should think long-term. They could be in it only for themselves but still know that in short-term it is better to work with these people (other PCs) to actually gain more power, influence etc. So no backstabbing over some 100 gp gem or just acting extremely rude, that's plain stupid. Especially if you want to manipulate the others for your own purposes...
If someone wants to play evil AND stupid character, go ahead and kill the character quickly, those are nothing but trouble (except in one-shots where they are highly entertaining).

So the rule is that evil character should avoid disrupting party dynamics as much as possible (being a nasty whiner is ok though). If someone wants to disrupt party dynamics (and I happily encourage this) better play basically nice guy who just thinks differently or doesn't readily agree on tactics.


D'oh.. my late-night addled eyes saw the Hide prereq for Blackguards, my brain disagreed, and my fingers typed Bluff. I still think Bluff makes more sense, but anyway... My suggestions still work, as all the classes I mentioned have Hide as a class skill as well. Also, the character can become a Blackguard 1 level quicker by taking all Ranger (!) levels, though this of course puts him in the position of being "another drow ranger."


I'm just smiling to myself. Certainly I've played with evil characters. Evil PLAYERS? Well, my younger brother did try to play once...

Scarab Sages

I played in a Greyhawk campaign (1st ed) where all the characters were evil. The DM just wanted to see what would happen...plus the Anti Paladin npc had just been described in Dragon #39 (I think) & I was happy to test drive one....Nexus Havok from Aerdy....we played our characters like a cross between the Wild Bunch & McHale's Navy until we finally broke with the Great Kingdom. We functioned well together; I don't remember anyone backstabbing (literally or figuratively) anyone (possibly the thieve's kept more than their fair share of booty but that can happen with any group). having a "might makes right" attitude doesn't necessarily preclude working well together, and liking each other...the Nazis & Hells Angels don't seem to have many more internal disputes than a church group (though they settle them more permanently).....

Scarab Sages

After reading my last post, let me add that my father was a minister so I saw a lot of infighting in the church (I grew up during the Civil Rights movement in the sixities in Mississippi); I didn't mean to imply that are literal similarities between any church and the Nazis or Hells Angels. I've no problem w/bikers either......I apologize if I offended anyone out there...


I think most of the points about evil characters have pretty well been covered.

Personally I am of the opinion that in a world with a hell and demons - that actually bleed over into everyday life, and dark gods actually grant dark powers, only a fool would want to be evil. The final payoff isn't theoretical, or a question faith, it is there to be seen - you can even visit with the right spells or magic items. I think this would dissuade most people from being evil. I also prefer to be the good guy as a player. In my game evil is the purview of NPCs.

My question is what do people consider evil?

Rude and abnoxious aren't evil, they are rude and obnoxious.
Adventuring (randomly killing others - often sentient - could make almost all characters evil)

In the context of the game my list of Evil acts:

Rape
Serving and evil god
Traffiking with demons undead
Controlling/eavesdropping in peoples minds
Which makes certain spells pretty dodging (IMO)
Killing non combatants because it is expeditious
Area of effect spells/items can be an issue their
Entering contract with no intent to fullfil them
Refusing aid when it could be reasonably offered
Vandalism for the sake of the act
Backstabbing friends, family, party members
Slavery
Dealing/using highly addictive drugs magic

Well anyway thats part of it.

Acting in self interest, plotting, even stealing (depending on how you define your terms) and killing are part of the career choice.

What does Evil and/or Good mean in your games?


I don't have a problem with players playing evil characters. We have many in our group, and others who through actions have had their alignments shifted to evil (Or back to good if the senario fit.) But I think that I need to explain my view of good and evil, law and chaos.

The law and chaos aspect of alignment determins the characters world view. Do they believe that the world and the heavens are ordered and structured, or do they believe it is chaotic with no real pattern?

With the good and evil axis, this is determined by the characers outlook. Are they out to help those around them and do the right thing, or are they looking out for number one, and the rest of the world can be damned?

The fact that a character is evil aligned doesn't mean that they can't do good things, though they may be doing them for selfish reasons. Just like I believe a character can commit acts of great evil while trying to do good things.

I think that you try to make complicate things when you view the little evils of day to day life with the huge evils of Hell and the Abyss. If you have to go that far down the spectrum to find true evil, then nothing that a player can do will ever be considered evil.
I have seen plenty of posts about characters actions that in my world would have gotten them a chaotic evil alignment, that the DMs just laugh off with out saying a word.


Evil players tend to be multiclass "closed-minded idiots" with a few levels in "jerk", "marketing whiz", "attention hog", "political cronie" or "lawyer".
Evil characters can be of almost any class.

GGG


I would just add that, in my eyes, entering into a contract with no intention to fulfill is chaotic, not evil. In fact, it could easily be good. If you enter a contract with a devil, with no intent to fulfill, but maybe even bring about the devil's fall, that's chatoic good. Just my opinion.


We played an evil game once, just to try it out. It wasn't as much fun as we thought it would be. Don't get me wrong, we still had fun, but we definitely prefer the good campaigns. I've had players that had LE alignments play in my group before, but soon I made them change their alignment to LN because that was more what they were playing. Most players don't understand what an evil character is like and play more towards neutral or chaotic instead evil. I say let him play it at first, then if he does or doesn't follow the alignment you should act accordingly and either change his alignment or let him keep progressing in evil.

A bit from my Hoarde


I've played NE characters before and DM'd parties with evil characters in them. If done right, which I'll grant you is rare, I've seen it work very well and make for a very interesting dynamic.
Bear in mind, if an evil PC is played right, IMHO, the other members of the party shouldn't be able to figure out he/she is evil, discounting CE, which would be absurd as a PC.
A well-played NE or LE character isn't going to walk around introducing himself, "Hi, I'm Ragnoth, LE 3rd level fighter. I'm a Capricorn who enjoys murder, rape, pillage, and long walks on the beach at midnight." He's going to get into the fight when the opportunity arises, either to preserve his own skin or to keep the fools he's adventuring with unaware so that they will continue to act in such a way as to further his own goals.
But he is going to hoard his own healing potions and spells, while accepting any the party is willing to hand out. I played with a NE cleric once who hid it so well we didn't even figure out he was a cleric until 3 adventures into the campaign, when he was caught casting a spell. We just thought he was another fighter.

Contributor

To answer the orignal poster's question, ANY character (aside from the Paladin) can by evil. It's really just a matter of motivation. Here are some examples of good and evil versions of pretty much the same character class from pop culture: Gandalf the good wizard - Sarumon the evil wizard; Li Mu Bai and Jade Fox from Crouching Tiger, Hiden Dragon, good and evil monks; Rand Al Thor and Sammael (The Wheel of Time), good and evil sorcerers (for lack of a better combarable class); etc., etc.

A test group at school, though? Do you mean you're playing at school like at lunch or something?

Anyway, if the guy wants to play an evil character, let him. But you should warn him that evil characters in non-evil parties don't last too long and he should come with a non-evil back up character ready if he wants to continue playing when/if his PC gets whacked. If he is really commited to role playing an evil character and not just using an evil alignment as an immature excuse to kill every thing in sight, it could actually be interesting. The problem is that most people have a very skewed idea of what being evil means. It's not kill, kill, kill. A well thought out evil character isn't overtly evil. You might not know the difference between him and the good-aligned character until crucial decisions have to be made. How they react is a pretty good indicator and even then it might not be obvious.

Anyway, good luck.


The difference between alignments, whether opposed or one step from each other, can sometimes be very pronouned, but quite often, it is almost undetectable in most situations. Demons and devils are, in most cases, almost identical. It just comes down to when you get a devil in a contract, he'll keep it, unless he finds a loophole, and a demon won't. Demons aren't necessarily crazed maniacs that don't use any planning. Look at maraliths- they're described as the tacticians of the Abyss. Even though they're chaotic, they're super intelligent.

Neutral and good characters can be hard to pin down, too, when you take realistic feelings and motivations and actions into acount.

All this just goes to the already stated point that evil characters aren't all murderous psychopaths, like many people seem to assume. Look at Hannibal Lecter. Evil? You bet! Insane? Depends on your definition. Runs around killing everyone he sees? No. Yet it seems like most people, when trying to play "evil" kill anything that annoys them even the slightest, and even somethings that don't. Well, that's evil, yes, but it's also stupid, and will get the PC killed fast more than anything.

So, let the evil character in, but don't get your hopes up. Use it as a test. If problems crop up, use it as a basis for a "no evil PCs" rule. If it works well, go with it. If you need to get rid of the PC, do it. A paladin is on his quest to get a special mount, along with his three cleric friends and the ten infantrymen his regional lord assigned him, and you just happen to be the search and destroy mission his deity assigned... good luck.


Kyr wrote:
...What does Evil and/or Good mean in your games?

Well...

There was the time our party woke up to find that one character had eaten another during the night.

We were playing orcs, and the game was a one-shot deal -- anything was fair game.

Jack


I found most of my campaigns featuring evil characters..I think the people I was playing with felt a bit repressed. I guess what really matters is the group dynamic. Because a large majority of people who play evil characters have the idea to kill others in the group. But I DMed for a group of cultists that were all bound to the same god, and although their differing methods led to bickering (evil cleric, wizard, and druid), and it was one of my best groups ever. You just have to make sure that none of the pcs are completly incompatable and accept the fact that an evil group will stray from your story even more than the normal heros might.

Dark Archive

I am just getting ready to start AoW for my 1st campaign in almost 9 years and I am debating if I will let "Hawggs" the evil thief join the old group again. On one hand, "Hawggs" was an amazing role-player and was such an evil bastard that we still laugh about things from 8 years ago like they happened yesterday(killing a sleeping innocent the 1st night of our adventure in the inn- guards spot him jumping out of the window - he hides in the bushes and removes his clothes- runs in to the inn naked yelling something about thieves attacking him- they don't believe him and he gets an arrow in the bare ass from a guard while running again). The bad part though is we were never able to get moving along and the second session ended with all of us having to stop "Sativ", the party cleric(and no stranger to real life fist fights), from literally giving "Hawggs" a very real life beat-down for his evil antics.
I am thinking of letting "hawggs" play again but only as a lawful good character to see if he can actually roleplay something different. "Sativ" is long gone and won't be joining our sessions :(


Steve Greer wrote:
To answer the orignal poster's question, ANY character (aside from the Paladin) can by evil. It's really just a matter of motivation.

One of my favorite characters was a healer in another system who, when translated to D&D, would have been neutral evil...she did do lots of healing since, well, she had the power and skill to do it and thus it was not a big thing to do...and she cared about the other members of the group because they were useful. But behind it all she was only looking for more power (and after getting that power there would be a massacre to come...). And of course her power and knowledge allowed her also to harm people in imaginatively nasty ways.

It took quite a long time before she really needed to act against her friends in overt manner...(and finally she ended up selling her soul to a demon)
But still, highly enjoyable character and important part for party dynamics (as healers tend to be) even when she wasn't particularly nice person.

Silver Crusade

I do not let players play evil characters in my campaigns. Character survival through a long campaign depends on characters working together and evil characters disrupt group coession. It is also harder to plan adventure hooks because you can't assume the character would do the adventure just because it is the right thing to do.
Even the neutral rogue in our party is causing problems. For example, when the party needed horses he went out and stole some from a stable instead of buying them. So when the party, including a paladin and good cleric, was spotted riding stolen horses and arrested the other players were not happy.
My other thought when I read the post is if this group plays at a high school (a college would be no problem). D&D has had a bad reputation for years and the last thing you want to do is get band from playing at school because some one over hears you all playing out evil acts and makes a complaint. These days even one person making a complaint can ruin the enjoyment of many.


I think it's possible to have a group of evil PCs work - but I think you have to have the right kind of campaign for it to make sense, and I think it takes a lot more effort on everyone's part to keep it from self destructing.

For example, if you've readthe "War of the Spider Queen" novels, these books detail the adventures of a group of Drow. They're all evil, but they have a common goal. Eventhough they actively dislike each other, they're intelligent enough to realize the benefit/necessity of working together (as opposed to slitting each others' throats).

Dark Archive

I never had any problems with evil characters in my games, but I have a very mature group of players so there won't be any bad vibes carried into real life.
As a DM I always found it way easier to include lawful or neutral evil characters into non-evil groups than chaotic ones.
An evil character doesn't have to commit evil acts all the time.
Mostly the evil alignment showed up when ethical decision had to be made and this always led to challenging roleplaying.
Even if the character is evil, it is not addicted to commiting evil acts.
It can integrate into a non-evil group if this will help him reach his goals.
I think the description of the various alignments in the PHB is pretty good, but it should be remembered, that these guide-lines doesn't have to be followed all the time.
An evil character can save a helpless person, but his motivations for it will be different from the motivations of a LG character.
A mixed-up group with characters of good and evil alignments is more challenging to DM than a group without these extremes in alignment, but it can be a lot of fun with players that want to portray an interesting character-concept.
If an evil character is chosen just for the sake of acting evil, I wouldn't allow it.


Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Drake_Ranger wrote:

Shaun, a fellow classmate, asked if he may play in the small (test) group for D&D at school. I agreed, but he wished to ONLY play as an evil character. He wanted to become a Drow Blackguard, but alas, lackguards are prestige classes. So my question is this:

What class should evil players be?!? I mean, what can they be??? O.o"

First off, don't let your players boss you around. If you don't want to have evil characters in your game, that's your call. He can either play by your rules or find another sandbox.

So, assuming you are okay with having evil in your group, the next issue is this: if you are running a 1st level adventure, a drow character is too powerful to have as a PC. In 3.5, drow have a level adjustment (LA) of +2, so a 1st level character has an effective character level (ECL) of 3. Level adjustments are "phantom levels" that the character does not get hit dice, skills, or other class abilities for to represent that he/she is just a more powerful race.

That all being said, (assuming you aren't too confused here, it took me a while to understand LA myself) you still have options. He can choose to be a standard elf from the PH, or perhaps try a level progression (see below).

Classwise... if he wants this character to become a blackguard, the blackguard has a few prerequisites: the character must be evil, have a base attack bonus of +6 or greater, have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, 2 or more in Knowledge (religion), the feats Cleave, Improved Sunder, and Power Attack, and have made peaceful contact with a summoned evil outsider.

Assuming male drow or either gender of standard elf (both favored class wizard), the fastest way to becoming a blackguard is: 3 levels in a class with Bluff as a class skill and average base attack bonus (Bard, Cleric with the Trickery domain, Rogue) alternating with 4 levels in a class with a good Base Attack Bonus (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin*, and Ranger).

The reason for needing 3 levels in a Bluff class is 1) having a skill be...

Ok here's how I deal with this.

I start with a good adventure party which builds group integrity.

After the group has experience I will allow one player, who wishes, to be evil. A rogue is a good choice for this, at present I have a Bargast PC (the party is not aware of his true nature, due to magical protections and illusions which make him appear otherwise.)

Later, if my group gets too large(# of players) I encourage some players to desighn and run monster characters who activly stalk the party. This makes my game VERY dangerous to the PCs and forces them to be attentive even more. It also provides an excellent villan who they all soon love to hate. Usually the monster character is a bit higher in level than the party and I give him a group of low level followers (for the pc's to fight)

If the number of players gets really cumbersome, I then have anyone interested create a monster character of the appropriate level. I then increase the difficulty of the campaighn again (and the body count) by introducing some of my favorite villans (who the party will never kill if I can help it.) One example is a Medusa Sorcerer. She allows me to remove "extra" or boring characters> I then "spawn" the intresting monster characters (that the players have created as backup characters and run themselves) while putting there favored PC's into limbo...I allow them to revive any character turned to stone by the Medusas gaze IF they can gain the means to do so...As a rule I try to make monster characters a "guest appearance" feature and encourage players to try to regain their good PC's ASAP. If a player wishes to runa an evil character in a good campaighn then I take him under my wing and insert his character into the dungeon in a private game before the party plays. I them run the games in tandem.

There are also some other ways to handle this...

An evil party is only added (to my game) when I want to flesh out the base of operations of good. This can be a castle that the players have taken and call thir own or a village or city. An evil party provides the DM with a reason to flesh out normally friendly territory (to good PC's)

Note. Some spots will require protection.

For instance, the magic shop where players can get all that cool stuff...well, evil players kill and steal it.

I will not go into all the variations that this creates I will only say that it is important to remember that there are means of scrying that good has at its disposal and evil suffers in a "good controled" territory whern the bounty hunters are sent after them. Lawful societys also benifit from the numbers of resources they can bring to bear on a problem...(think of law enforcement here)


The biggest problem I've had with evil characters is how people perceive them. This - as I call it - misperception isn't just a problem with players, but DMs as well.

With players, I often run into people that just flat betray the party "because they're evil". This much, I suppose, wouldn't be so bad if they didn't also have the unreasonable expectation of being able to stay with the party. And more unbelievably, the other players don't rally their characters and punish, oust, or eliminate the threatening PC; they actually let them stay, and just gripe about it out of character.

On the DM side, I run into a similar misperception of an evil PC's motives and character. For years, I've wanted to run an evil PC, and despite all the conversations we've had on the subject, my DM still sees Good and Evil as black and white. An evil PC can't be trusted. They'd only be using the other PCs. They could never get along. In short, an evil PC is a heartless creature who isn't even human (or elf, dwarf, whatever) anymore.

Personally, I don't understand this. Okay, if you're looking for examples of evil in Ted Bundy, or Jeff Dahmer, or Hannibal Lecter, then sure these characteristics fit to some extent. Maybe.

But what's usually never taken into account is that evil people /are/ human (elf, dwarf, whatever). They are capable of depth beyond their dark urges and mad schemes. They can have friends, they can be loyal, they even have the capacity for love. They can get along perfectly fine with a party of adventurers, and leave few to no clues about their inclinations. Heck, if anything, it'll be the good characters who'd be the first to turn on their evil friends.

So evil characters are dehumanized. It makes it easier to slaughter them in the name of good, after all. ;)


Xellan wrote:
Personally, I don't understand this. Okay, if you're looking for examples of evil in Ted Bundy, or Jeff Dahmer, or Hannibal Lecter, then sure these characteristics fit to some extent. Maybe.

As hinted in an earlier post, I'm a fan of Hannibal Lecter. Actually, he was very charming and agreeable most of the time. If you didn't know who he really was and what he did, he would have been great to be around. Yet, he is one of the quintessential evil characters of film and literature in recent years, largely because of these facts. He could very easily get along with good characters.

For inspiration within D&D, look at the descriptions of Asmodeous, himself. He is, arguably, depending on who or what you reference, one of, if not the, most powerful force(s) of evil in the multiverse. Yet, he doesn't just slay everything he comes by. He's very charming, witty, and, well, nice to be around, all when he wants to be. Then he twists his words and starts working subtle plots, and before long, he's got you killing your own children in their sleep. Yet, to begin with, and for a very long time, you would never guess that he was so horrible.

Players who just want to play stupid psychos can't make evil characters get along with a party. Often, they can barely get good ones to get along with the rest of the party. Even if they're mature about their evil, and take on a Darth Vader stance (openly evil, but not a crazed mass murderer), they still won't get along with a good party (usually, although I'm suer we could easily come up with exceptions that would be really fun), though a mercenary neutral group might easily embrace them. I think it would be really great to run a campaign where one of Vader's archetype was forced to work with good PCs by coincidence.

So, in order to pull off evil while around good characters, it's easiest to go with LE or NE, and not show it off so much. However, unless you have a mature group, don't get your hopes up about the feasibility of it all. You can often defeat this, and teach them some good roleplaying, or quell their evil urge, by letting them play evil, and find out how hard it is to do it well. The guards will always be on them if they're too overt. They'll be fined at least, maybe executed. A lot of people think they can just play evil to run wild, but it really doesn't (or shouldn't) work that way. So, just have fun with it, no matter what.


Ok. So here's the reason "I let my PCs push me around". lol. I WANT to have an evil PC character to understand ONE side of the story, and the rest of the party to see the stereotypical GOOD side of the story. No one ever looks at the evil villian's side of the story (no one I know of...except you Orth. lol) Anyways, just what does it take to be evil, and why is anyone evil? What is their goal(s)?


Well if you WANT an evil character in thte party:

Give him extra starting money, the result of investments in the past:

Part ownership in a brothel
Shares in a slave trading vessel/operation
Investment in a drug smuggling/distribution outfit
Investment in a rigged to the house gambling operation
Investment in a loan sharking operation
Investment in an operation the fences stolen goods

All of these are activities adventurers could easily be invlolved with as part of their history either actively or passively, in places that were as nice or seedy as the character (and you as DM choose)

The party doesn't have to know anything about it, but their could loads of interesting hooks from, disgruntled partners looking for more investment, the law, rivals, customers who have issues, victims of these various enterprises, the list goes on, all of which provide the character with a host of reasons to get out of town as soon as possible - and hook up with the first group available even if they are not like minded.

If you don't like that you could do something as subtle as have him worship a distasteful deity (not even necessarily evil) but his specific faith require certain practices/sacrifices that others (while not knowing about it) would deem evil if they knew.

You could have enter a pact with a demon for some benefit - bonus abilities, levels, spells, money, whatever - but as a result the character is obligated to perform certain rites make certain sacrifices the party would not approve of (if they knew).

You could make him an addict to some substance, normal or arcane, that makes him behave acertain way (on occassion) or that he HAS to get to be functional - and will do anything to get - not so much evil as some of the other suggestions, but could be depending on execution.

I guess it all boils down to baggage - evil is probably going to come with more, more people looking for you, more effort to cover tracks, more excuses to make, more activities to manage.

Hope that helps.


Drake_Ranger wrote:
Ok. So here's the reason "I let my PCs push me around". lol. I WANT to have an evil PC character to understand ONE side of the story, and the rest of the party to see the stereotypical GOOD side of the story. No one ever looks at the evil villian's side of the story (no one I know of...except you Orth. lol) Anyways, just what does it take to be evil, and why is anyone evil? What is their goal(s)?

What does it take to be evil? Caring about yourself above all others, and being willing to go to any length to achieve your goals, no matter who or what you hurt along the way. Some stick to this and don't participate in unneccessary violence, others enjoy going out of their way to bring harm to others.

What are their goals? What are anyone's goals? What is a good character's goals? Even a saintly character can be motivated by personal agendas and desires for wealth and power (though they show restraint in their quest, and use the rewards in a responsible, helpful manner). But, generally, their goals deal with unrestrained ambition and or love of power and control, or simply vengeance and destruction. Again, look to some iconic "evil" characters- Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, Sauron, Saruman, Hannibal Lecter, Raistlin, Fistandantilus, and even real-life villains, such as the Nazis.

Ever see the movie Seven? While it's a great movie, I must advise anyone of young age (if you even have to ask if this applies to you, then the answer is yes) or anyone who has even the slightest suicidal tendencies or any hope for humanity. That said, it will give you a good taste of what pure evil is like.


One last thing: Kyr, I wouldn't be so quick to hand out extra starting money. I know the paltry sums of first level rarely mean much once the first 1000XP is gained, but I've learned from experience that it does unbalance some characters for that brief time, and the starting sums are meant to indicate how much wealth one has from WHATEVER ventures you've been in in the past. One of my players used to talk me into giving him extra starting money once and a while, and I later realized that it wasn't appropriate from game logic viewpoint. Just my thoughts.


Lareth, Elven Ranger (played by Ryan), is on a quest to the city of Dimeh to find his Mother's friend, Drake. Upon arriving at the bridge between the Mossy Woods, and the Telmar Woods at Death Valley, Lareth meets a vile Drow Necromancer. With him is a younger Drow, unknown and unamed throughout the encounter; merely a spectator at best. After fighting his way across Death Valley's narrow, roped bridge, barely holding on when it is cut loose, and climbing to the other side of the riveen, Lareth simply puts the endeavor aside in his mind, searching for the city of Dimeh, and Drake.
...Meanwhile, Sylikka and his younger companion, Shar'ren, a young Blackguard in training (played by Shaun), bow down before their master, Master Malakie, awaiting orders for their next mission. Unbeknownst to Lareth, Sylikka and his young protoge' are attempting to cut off supplies to Dimeh City, attempting to secretly kill the mortals who live there, and the secret Vampire cabal; known as the Red Fang. The Red Fang has been a major threat to their rivals, the Illithids (need a name for their gang...:P), for the two require the citizens of Dimeh City for sustinance. The two rivals are merely annoyances to Master, and he wishes them to be disposed of, or to rule over the two. So as young Shar'ren grows stronger, so does his intelligence, and his preciousness to Master Malakie.
***Cool huh? Tell me what you think. Oh! My point is this***
You see, the campaign I'm running is somewhat like any other fantasy novel, where the reader can see both sides of the story. BUT, in this campaign, when the two forces are forced together (Shaun would probably want to somehow eliminate Master, and claim his glory by joining Ryan temporarily), the two might see where the stories connect in a cool sort of way! ^.^ THIS my friends, is REAL GAMING!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA! Blessed (*) Be.


Saern wrote:
One last thing: Kyr, I wouldn't be so quick to hand out extra starting money. I know the paltry sums of first level rarely mean much once the first 1000XP is gained, but I've learned from experience that it does unbalance some characters for that brief time, and the starting sums are meant to indicate how much wealth one has from WHATEVER ventures you've been in in the past.

I am usually a big one for balance. IF you awarded extra starting money (which was an idea - not necessarily a recommendation since I don't have the context) it would be balanced by enemies hounding the character, debts, addiction, etc. If those issues have to be addressed in the campaign then they may (again depending on the campaign) merit additional starting money - similar to how flaws balance feats, if the DM is not going to incorporate them into the game then your right extra starting money is unbalancing.

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