If you decide to switch out one of the PC's for a doppleganger, why not simply note when and with whom the swap COULD take place, don't play it out, and just decide it occured? Let the player continue to play normally (as they don't know they've been kidnapped and replaced), then when time comes to reveal the possible traitor in their midst, NO player knows who the real deal is, only the DM. That will stop all metagaming and heighten the paranoia.
Just my thoughts after one read. Please point out any problems with this approach.
Thanks.
Let the player continue to play normally
The major gameplay problem with this is that the Doppleganger will have different stats (alignment, creature type, ability scores, HD, hp, skill bonuses, "to hit" bonuses, etc) and won't have access to all sorts of class abilities, character knowledge, etc. I know many DMs might not care so much about this, but my players would be very frustrated to find out later on that the "Detect Evil" they cast at such-and-such point should have detected the Doppleganger, that the thing shouldn't have been affected by a such-and-such spell, etc.
(as they don't know they've been kidnapped and replaced)
True; however, the *Doppleganger* knows it's a Doppleganger and would likely have a very different viewpoint/agenda than the actual PC - no matter how closely it tried to approximate the PCs traits.
I'm sure that for some campaigns, this could work. My players would not care for this kind of tactic from me, though. They'd feel (justifiably, IMO) that I'd railroaded them into something without a fair chance to detect it/handle it on their own.
To expand the conversation a bit... Is anyone planning on scrapping the Doppleganger stuff entirely? What ideas do you have for replacement material/creatures?
I haven't gotten my hands on that particular issue yet, but I like the sound of the "make an arrangement with one of my PCs" route. I wouldn't stop the other members from doing things like casting detect evil; I'd just do some pre-rolling to set up the initial doppleganging and encourage the player to do his best to hide his doppleganger-ness (while restricting himself to actions a doppleganger can take).
My players would love it!
I actually like your plan. Not telling any of the PC is a great way to get around the whole issue. I also think that it was suggested that even if you do replace one of the players and the players knows, that she could keep her character 'as is' so as to not raise any suspicions among the party. I really don't want to throw this part of the story away - I'm just struggling with the fact that there is more than one player in my group that might get a total kick out of playing a doppleganger for a bit.
On a similar note (having to do with the dopplegangers) I have a question about their lair. It seems to me that the only way to get to the cell area is via the catwalk - but the ladder leading up to it breaks as soon as a character tries to climb it. How the heck did you get their current prisoners into the cell block?? Carrying someone up the ladder would be a chore and a half to say the least. Am I missing something (which is more than likely)?
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On a similar note (having to do with the dopplegangers) I have a question about their lair. It seems to me that the only way to get to the cell area is via the catwalk - but the ladder leading up to it breaks as soon as a character tries to climb it. How the heck did you get their current prisoners into the cell block?? Carrying someone up the ladder would be a chore and a half to say the least. Am I missing something (which is more than likely)?
I have asked this question in several different threads and its been pretty much ignore each time. My final solution was for the ladder to be made into stairs and for the entire collapsing thing not to occur. The trap is not really a huge part of the dungeon.
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So far I think this is the lamest part of the adventure path. While nicly written and with neat maps, the adventure is so cliche and heavy handed I have to replace it or my party will rebel. They won't be paranoid, they'll be p!$$&@ **f and as far as a connection to the age of worms...was this just a module you guys re edited to fit the adventure path? It feels so out of place. If the whole scenario is to get the pc's to level up and go after Racknian, that part can be added to any homebrewed adventure. and constantly having the Npc's do all the investigative stuff while the party just hits things is becoming pretty boring.
So far I think this is the lamest part of the adventure path. While nicly written and with neat maps, the adventure is so cliche and heavy handed I have to replace it or my party will rebel. They won't be paranoid, they'll be p!$$&@ **f and as far as a connection to the age of worms...was this just a module you guys re edited to fit the adventure path? It feels so out of place. If the whole scenario is to get the pc's to level up and go after Racknian, that part can be added to any homebrewed adventure. and constantly having the Npc's do all the investigative stuff while the party just hits things is becoming pretty boring.
Well, it is tied to the adventure path, though that link is only mentioned briefly at the beginning, and then alluded to later in the Mind Flayer's journal. Raknian (or whatever his name is) is aware of the PCs and their actions against the Ebon Triad and knows they're in town. So, to keep them from prying any further and spoiling the upcoming events at his games, he tasks his underling (as any good villain would) with exterminating the PCs. The Mind Flayer (being an Illithid, who detest such grunt work) thus passes the assignment on to HIS minions, the dopplegangers. And I think it absolutely makes sense that a creature as intelligent as a Mind Flayer would have cowed a gang of dopplegangers and be using them to infiltrate key positions throughout the largest and most powerful city in the known world. So, while HoHR doesn't contain much in the way of direct interaction with the AP, it DOES illustrate that there are many players involved, all of whom have their own goals and agendas, going about their business with evil efficiency. They recognize potential monkey-wrenches (I.E. - the PCs) and try to keep them from being tossed into their carefully designed machinations. It makes the larger world around the PCs seem more real by making them interact with other bad guys who have been impacted, even indirectly, by their actions.
Now, I do agree with this - the PCs always handing off their findings to NPCs to do the research does get tiresome, but it is EASILY altered. Just have the loremaster (don't remember his name) vouch for the PCs to gain access to the Great Library themselves to do the research on their own. After all, he's bound to be a busy guy. Then, whatever they don't find on their own, he can present to them from his own studies on the side. Problem solved.
Actually Katana, I like that idea, and I would fine tune it like this:
The doppleganger in question has a magic item on its person that links it to the actual person being impersonated, and that person even thinks that they are in control of their body, and can use its abilities.
When certain conditions are met, such as entering the mirrored hall in the adventure, the magic item cuts out, and the doppleganger reasserts itself and control of its body. In this manner, there is no reason to worry about detect evil or detect thoughts, or that the PC might not have their abilities.
Okay . . . open fire, lol.
I've decided to change the concept of Ixiaxian to fit into one of my player's character concept, whose character's name is, oddly enough, Ix, a human rogue about to take levels in psion.
Ix's original concept is that he was a scribe in Greyhawk that worked for a group that tried to track down evil cultist activity in the city. He tired of reading the reports from the various investigators and decided to actively search out any cultist activity on his own. He eventually found himself in Diamond Lake, where his money ran out along with any hope of actually finding any cultist activity.
The player and I have been talking about ways to role-play in his new-found psionic ability over the past week, and now that I've read The Hall of Harsh Reflections, I've come up with a plan.
I spoke with the player earlier today with an idea to apply the half-doppleganger template from Dragon #313, but changing his spell-like ability to cast Empathy to the psionic power of the same name.
We've changed his background to this:
Ixiaxian is a psionic half-doppleganger that experienced intense psychic trauma while in a human guise. "Ix," as he calls himself, completely believes that he is human. He also totally believes his "back story" as he's told the friends he's made in Diamond Lake. However, over the course of his toiling experiences while adventuring, part of his true self starts to emerge, and he discovers his latent psionic powers.
Now... I told that player that at one point (at least a month away, maybe two) he and the other party members will discover that he is really a half-doppleganger, and when they find out, the party members might turn against him to the point that they might want to kill him. Until that time, Ix will not change at all from the way he has been, and that he can't tell the other players. He said that he understood, and is willing to make the change to his character.
However... I didn't tell him the rest of Ixiaxian's true history, and he won't find out until The Hall of Harsh Reflections. Ixiaxian did suffer psychic trauma, but it was during his time that he willingly served Zyrxog.
Zyrxog became interested in Raknian's involvement with the Ebon Triad, but instead of openly seeking information on the Ebon Triad, he sent Ixiaxian on a mission to join the cultists in Diamond Lake. Unfortunately, Ixiaxian became ill with a debilitating disease that causes intense psionic activity. He was found on the road near Diamond Lake by some good-hearted miners that tended to him until he recovered, without magical aid. By the time the fever passed, Ixiaxian was no more, and Ix ventured into Diamond Lake, intent on discovering any evil cultist activity in the area.
When Ix shows up at Sodden Hold with the adventurers, he will be greeted by his fellow dopplegangers, and openly questioned by Zyrxog in the final encounter. Things like "What has happened to you, Ixiaxian, to make you turn against us, your family?" If the party doesn't find out about Ix before this time, Zyrxog will open Ix's mind to what he really is. But by that time, even Ixiaxian will have discovered that he no longer wants to serve the powers of evil, and will stay loyal to his new friends.
It also goes hand-in-hand with an Outer Limits episode where a man discovers an alien threat to Earth, starts out to expose them, then in the end discovers that he himself is actually one of the aliens and had lost his memory in a car wreck or something.
It should play out fun.
That sounds like a good plan. Really designed with the PC in mind.
I think Dopplegangers are the most over-used villian in D&D. I'm a bit of "old-school" and personally prefer to think of Doppleganger in 1st ed. style. In the novel "Elfstones of Shannara", the Doppleganger is one of the big bad guys - end boss kind of thing; certainly not cannon fodder or any significant portion of the population (in the Underdark or above ground). Dopplegangers are insidious and because they murder the character in order to take his place (which totally sucks for the player, of course) they should be used with extreme caution, IMO.
Back to the point at hand...
Nine times out of ten I remove dopplegangers from published modules and rework the storyline accordingly (always keeping in mind how mad I'd be if the character I worked so hard to create and have become quite attached to is now revealed as some evil creature my fellow adventures are compelled to destroy). But on the rare occassion that I leave the doppleganger in his assigned place, I ALWAYS play it just as Katana suggested. Dopplegangers are not just some stupid lackey but an extremely intelligent creature (at least in my campaigns) whose very survival is dependent on their ability to replace a character and assume all the proper affectations and actions while in the company of that character's original companions. For character skills and abilities that a doppleganger couldn't possibly "fake", I just say that for unknown reasons that "didn't work" (I don't know what your problem is, Vargus, but you failed at your attempt to play your instrument/tie that knot/cast that spell,etc). This is the players' first clue that something isn't right but most likely players will be scratching their heads and wondering about their own abilities at first, rather than being instantly suspicious of their comrade (at least that's how it generally plays out when you have decent role-players).
I mean, imagine you live in Roswell,NV (so you are more than familiar with alien lore), and suddenly your best friend who you play basketball with every week can barely dribble the ball, let alone make a decent shot. Would you immediately tackle his *ss to the ground and haul this alien to the proper authorities? I doubt it. Your initial reaction would be concern and bewilderment. I know this is kinda a lame example since real life doesn't compare to fantasy and there aren't real aliens in any case (are there??) but you understand my point...
The player is going to do all the acting without scripting from the DM - he looks confused and bewildered when he can't perform his normal tasks properly; and will doubtlessly profess his innocence - aha! Exactly what the doppleganger would do!
Whether you tell the player before hand or not, the fact remains that they've effectively "lost" their character in favor of an evil creature. So, IMO, as long as there's going to be anger and resentment, may as well make the most of it!
As a post-script... Big Jake, that is quite the clever and convoluted storyline/explanation to the whole doppleganger thing - very impressive!
The major gameplay problem with this is that the Doppleganger will have different stats (alignment, creature type, ability scores, HD, hp, skill bonuses, "to hit" bonuses, etc) and won't have access to all sorts of class abilities, character knowledge, etc. I know many DMs might not care so much about this, but my players would be very frustrated to find out later on that the "Detect Evil" they cast at such-and-such point should have detected the Doppleganger, that the thing shouldn't have been affected by a such-and-such spell, etc.
With regard to the original question posed, this exact situation occurred in a game prior to AoW; my character had been traveling with an exact duplicate of his brother for an extended amount of time, and had not noticed the difference. It turns out that the duplicate did not know he was a duplicate and up until an extremely powerful entity exerted his will on the duplicate, he was normal in every aspect. It worked out fine since he was a copy of himself. After the duplicate was killed (yeah, it was pretty easy to kill my brother), the player was allowed to make minor modifications to skill points and feats for the real brother who is now released.
In AoW, I plan on doing virtually the same thing. I will let the player in on it so that he can play him slightly differently, just for fun, but I suspect no one will know the difference. Some of the characters in the party are evil, so detecting evil isn't a gamebreaker. I also think that the players will look beyond the irregularites of ability differences between the PC and the Doppleganger in the spirit of fun gameplay and good story. But, I can't get into too much more as I have players that lurk on these message boards....
My players would beat me if I tried to make one a doppleganger without their knowledge. Luckily, I have a player who has always loved that monster, and so I knew just who to go to with this part of the campaign. He was cery excited about it, and I told him that it was up to him if we did it "by the books" and played the doppleganger pretending to be him, or if we just glossed over the rules and kept him playing his own character as is.
He was up for the challenge of trying to play Ixiaxian by the books, not an easy feat since his character was a hexblade. Not only that, one of the other players in the group was playing the hexblade's half-sister, and I was pretty sure that even without sense motive, she'd catch on before the trap came to fruition.
The we got to the Caverns of Erythnul, where the hexblade died rather spectacularly. His half-sister is going to leave whenever we finish TFoE, distraught with her brother's death (allowing the player to try his gnome druid concept). So, now I don't have to worry about her detecting the doppleganger, but I am worried about how Ixiaxian is going to mimic the abilities of the hexblade's replacement; a Radiant Servant of Pelor. Hmmm....
The first time I posted on this thread, I hadn't read HOHR (sorry, just giving advice) but now that I have, I have to say this ... It is, beyond a doubt, the best doppleganger adventure I've ever read! As I said earlier, I almost always remove/replace dopplegangers in various modules - I won't even consider it in this one! Why would anyone want to? Your character isn't really dead; you're going to get him/her back (hopefully) at the great conclusion to the story. Using the don't ask/don't tell scenario in this case is going to work sooo perfectly because when the "reveal" happens and the characters are confronted with their doubles, the players honestly won't know who has been "replaced" and who is really themselves. Chaos,panic,dispair ensues! Then after the PCs have killed the creature they THINK is the doppleganger (or am I really a doppleganger who just succeeded in killing my double?) ... the fun really begins! Mwhahahahaha! I can't wait for the players in my campaign to progress to this point. I'm salivating over the possibilities and the great role-playing.
The Paladin in my party just hired a squire, while the mage found an apprentice. One of these two (Which ever one is still alive at the time) will fall prey to the doppleganger. Saves me a great deal of headache to run it this way.
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but my players would be very frustrated to find out later on that the "Detect Evil" they cast at such-and-such point should have detected the Doppleganger, that the thing shouldn't have been affected by a such-and-such spell, etc.
As lame as it sounds, Dopps in 3.5 are neutral...first thing i looked up when I thought of the party paladin....
You know, I think we have some REALLY violent players out there. I keep hearing DMs cower in fear that their players will beat/rape/murder/mutilate them if they do something one way or another. Perhaps D&D really DOES cause violence?
To expand the conversation a bit... Is anyone planning on scrapping the Doppleganger stuff entirely? What ideas do you have for replacement material/creatures?
Sorry no ideas for you but I share your sentiments - I keep Dopplegangers away from my PCs - they are a friggen nightmare waiting to take place.
I keep hearing DMs cower in fear that their players will beat/rape/murder/mutilate them if they do something one way or another. Perhaps D&D really DOES cause violence?
I realize that you're being cheeky, but seriously: it's not about 'living in fear' of my PC's (far from it); it's about a desire to create a game that I hope everyone - my players and myself - can enjoy. I've been DM-ing and playing with the same group for years and years and know what sorts of tricks they don't care for. And I respect those wishes.
Personally, I think it comes down to this: I expect *them* to follow the rules of the game when they level their characters and make skill checks and roll to hit, etc. In return, they expect me to follow the rules of them game even if I'm pulling a 'trick' or 'twist' like a Doppleganger replacement. They would expect that the actual creature's stats be used at all times, and would not care for me just saying, "ah, who cares: use the PC's stats, no matter how different they are, until the deception is revealed." They would feel cheated and railroaded... and personally, I wouldn't blame them. And they wouldn't beat or mutilate me, they would just be disappointed and ask me not to cheat them like that. It's not that they wouldn't care for the challenge of a party Doppleganger replacement (I just pulled something similar on them, as a matter of fact, and we all enjoyed the subplot) - they'd just expect me to keep things grounded in the rules of the game. That's all.
...it's about a desire to create a game that I hope everyone - my players and myself - can enjoy. I've been DM-ing and playing with the same group for years and years and know what sorts of tricks they don't care for. And I respect those wishes.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. This kind of thing really varies from group to group and maybe even within groups. Knowing you players feeling toward this sort of thing is like an apendix attachment too knowing how much your players want hack and slash vs. roleplaying vs. problem solving. Its not really that there is some kind of correct answer but some groups might think this was the greatest thing since sliced bread while other players are adamant that the one thing in this game they control is their players and when the DM decides that they are now playing a Doppleganger while their real character is tied up somewhere its just not cool.
Most of my players would want to be playing their captured character not the crummy doppleganger - they are not the doppleganger their a guy tied to a chair - what happens? to their chair bound charater? Does some one come to feed me? Can he escape some how?
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After two sessions into HoHR, I still hate the doppleganger plot. I really hate the Allustan reference. If the dopplegangers only learn after 3 days that the PC's are at the crooked house, why does the main Doppleganger appear as Allustan? The plot says Raknian learns the group is headed for Greyhawk so he plans to wax em there. If dude can already assume the form of Allustan, why dosen't he just show up as the wizrobe, and wax the party? I know, I know...cause the adventure needs a dungeon crawl...
I do like the two dungeons however.
As far as doppleganger replacement, I actually am still running the adventure as written. The players enjoyed roleplaying with Eligos alot as he was finally able to shed some light on things.
I actually approached each PC seperatly and conspired with them to be the doppleganger. After 2 sessions, the party is in area 9 of sodden hold and all 5 of them believe they are the doppleganger! When they reach area 15 I am going to select 1 of the pc's to give me their character sheet and then to resume play as the captured pc. I told each player seperatly that that was when I would reveal them as the doppleganger. Now all of the players are waiting (trying not to spoil the secret) for the unvieling.
(P.S. the water elevator in areas 8-9 is a little confusing as written ie: the octopus. It is listed as Giant sized but the room layout with the elevator shaft dosen't seem adequete to house the beast. I had to omit the creature because I couldn't fit it in the area after I drew the room on the battle-mat.)
I actually approached each PC seperatly and conspired with them to be the doppleganger. After 2 sessions, the party is in area 9 of sodden hold and all 5 of them believe they are the doppleganger!
That's a pretty sly way to include a surprise... let everyone in on it! It sounds like it should work out great.
To sly for me, ´cause I don´t get it! Sounds interesting. I´m still looking for an elegant solution for the "doppelganger-situation". Okay, all Players think they are the Doppelganger. How does this work out??? Cardinal_Malik: What happend after the revelation? Please explain...
Thanks
So, now that the Dungeon #127 online supplement is up, I can point folks to another alternate plan for doppleganger replacement in the Realms conversion. There's no reason, however, that this approach couldn't be used in Greyhawk or Eberron.
--Eric
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As the scene occured, every PC switched to the characters tied to the chairs. After three minutes of them looking around asking for help, I chose a character sheet randomly and resumed saying that that pc (in this case Tony) was the doppleganger and he attacked the party's cleric. the "other" pc's attacked the group and the scene played out. The players were pretty surprised this way and no one got mad about the switch.
Now I got it! That should work out without to much trouble from my player´s side. Thank´s a lot.
Big Jake, that's a really good idea.
The sad thing in my case is that I've done this in two previous campaigns. I replaced a dead PC rogue with a duplicate malaugrym demarch of Mask in our 2E campaign, and I replaced the party human fighter/sorcerer with a drow elf arcane trickster assassin. Both players were pleased with the new PCs they were allowed to play, and I made sure to make it up to them when their PCs were revealed and ultimately killed or driven off (becoming NPCs). To do it a third time seems silly to me. However, I really like this module, so I'll probably run it as is.
All of the Age of Worms modules are excellent. I'm dying to start.
As lame as it sounds, Dopps in 3.5 are neutral...first thing i looked up when I thought of the party paladin....but my players would be very frustrated to find out later on that the "Detect Evil" they cast at such-and-such point should have detected the Doppleganger, that the thing shouldn't have been affected by a such-and-such spell, etc.
I saw that too, and ran it that way when the party detected evil at one point. Now that its over, I think it was wrong. In what way is a doppleganger thief who is infiltrating a party for the purpose of killing them, while serving a Mind Flayer who hangs out with drow - " Neutral " Any other thoughts on this, I am thinking I may have to mulligan an encounter to undo some damage.
So, now that the Dungeon #127 online supplement is up, ...
--Eric
Just read what you did with the Ixaxian on this. Quite a work of genius, I guessed the Unseen would make it into the adventure but I couldn't see how Zyrxog would fit in.
Here's how I intend to handle the Doppleganger replacement.
Ixaxian has been observing the group for sometime and has learnt that one of the characters is keen to broaden his repetoire (the character wants to take the Assasin prestige class) and has been asking discreet questions to try and find out where he can get training.
Ixaxian has a contact with the Shadow Thieves (or some other shady group) and offers to introduce a potential new recruit on one condition, that they keep him busy and confined with his training until Ixaxian is ready. No doubt Ixaxian will owe this group some favour in return.
Meanwhile Ixaxian takes over as the PC with the player's knowledge that his real character is actually receiving training and is just unaware of the switch. This still requires that the player goes along with the ploy but I'm confident they will.
Saying all that it could change again, the group are only 1/2 way through 3FoE.