Chriton227 |
SPOILER WARNING
I just started running Whispering Cairn last weekend, and my players and I were surprised by the difficulty of making a number of the checks. For example, toppling the stone in the Architect's area (DC 25) required the entire party of four to make strength checks (one primary, three aid another), and the primary still needed to roll a 17+ if all of the other three made their checks (19+ if only 2 of the three made it). Since taking 10 isn't allowed when using Aid Another, we spent a fair amount of time just rolling again and again.
On the sarcophogus in Area 7, it is impossible for our party's rogue to find the trap. The Search DC is 26, she has 1st level max ranks (4) and a +1 Int, and since it is a trap no one else in the party can attempt to aid.
My party also got kicked around by the wolves. No one died, but it was touch and go. We ended the session with a cliff-hankger of the beetle swarm coming up from the Laborer's Quarters, I'm afraid the mad slasher and the beetle swarm will just about wipe them out, especially since they have no area effect damage ability. I don't have the adventure with me to check the base beetle size, but if it is Fine or Diminuitive, the party has no way to inflict damage on the swarm at all (it would be immune to all weapon damage and single target spells and effects).
Normally when I think of DCs for a first-level group, I think of 10 as normal, 15 as challenging, and 20 as difficult.
What was the PC stat assumption behind this module? Standard elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (total +5 modifier); I use a homebrew stat generation system that results in a total modifier of +6 to +9 (average stat 13). The current party makeup is Human Bard 1, Human Rogue 1, Elf Cleric (Cuthbert) 1, and Human Warlock 1. We do have a 5th player joining who will be playing a front-line fighter.
Timault Azal-Darkwarren |
Well, sometimes the party learns from failure.
The statue too hard to topple? Then it's too hard...
They didn't find the trap? Then it's sprung and they soon realize they better get better at searching...
They don't know how to deal with the beetle swarm? They had better run away and live to fight another day...
Chriton227 |
The statue too hard to topple? Then it's too hard....
At least that is an optional part of the adventure, but the treasure balance is radically altered if the PCs can't get to it.
They didn't find the trap? Then it's sprung and they soon realize they better get better at searching...
The sarcophogus is at least survivable, but it bugs me that the rogue is the only character that is repeatedly expected to make skill checks that require rolls in the high teens to succeed even with max ranks, and if they fail, they are the only ones who get negative consequences.
They don't know how to deal with the beetle swarm? They had better run away and live to fight another day...
If only they could. The only way for the party to run is to abandon the cleric. The cleric is their front line fighter, base move of 20'. The swarm is immune to all weapon attacks and single target effects, so the party has no way to damage it (no AoE spells). Once it comes in contact with the cleric, he will take damage every round and can move fast enough to get away. He will have maybe three rounds to live. The mad slasher is faster than the party, and if they stop to fight it, the beetle swarm will catch the rest of the party. If they don't stop, it will slowly pick off the party members one by one.
I think I made a mistake by suggesting to my players to create well rounded characters. The adventure appears to be designed with broken munchkin characters in mind instead of the default PC power level from the PHB/DMG. I think the AP will be great if the group can make it through the first adventure, but they almost abandoned the AP entirely after the fight with the wolves. They had to rest two days to recover. It's important to challenge the characters and to keep a feeling of danger, but if you don't allow the characters some initial success, it is much harder to firmly set the hook in their interest. Especially in the first encounter of the campaign, the party is still learning how to work together and will be far from making optimal use of their abilities. The only thing that prevented a PC death or two in the wolf fight was that I rolled minimum damage on a critical hit and rolled minimum damage on an AoO when the cleric tried to stand up. I hate to see the PC last less time than it took to create the character.
Jeremy Mac Donald |
Yeah - its a really tough module and many of the others in the AP are similier. Really the problem is in part the format. Dungeon adventures are to small to allow 13 EL 1 encounters and even if they where not 13 EL 1 encounters does not make for very compelling adventures to read about, most of the time anyway.
Maybe you should fudge this - Possibly have the mad slasher fight the beetles and let the players escape.
Personally if this where my game I'd just say that the module has challanges I was not really prepared for and where going to replay the scene where you guys are about to let the beetles escape...instead of letting the beetles escape you suddenly have an overwhelming desire to go and get another adventurer to help you out - now introduce a new PC or NPC frontline fighter. 6 characters is probably not to many to have in the AP - its really very challanging, with only 4 your at the mercy of a couple of bad dice rolls and the party is toast.
Tor Libram |
Timault Azal-Darkwarren wrote:They don't know how to deal with the beetle swarm? They had better run away and live to fight another day...If only they could. The only way for the party to run is to abandon the cleric. The cleric is their front line fighter, base move of 20'. The swarm is immune to all weapon attacks and single target effects, so the party has no way to damage it (no AoE spells). Once it comes in contact with the cleric, he will take damage every round and can move fast enough to get away. He will have maybe three rounds to live.
Two words. Withdrawal Action. Then claim that the swarm's max speed is 20' ('cos they only have little legs).
rotag42 |
I'm afraid the mad slasher and the beetle swarm will just about wipe them out, especially since they have no area effect damage ability. I don't have the adventure with me to check the base beetle size, but if it is Fine or Diminuitive, the party has no way to inflict damage on the swarm at all (it would be immune to all weapon damage and single target spells and effects).
I ran the mining office encounter posted here so the party had a scorll of burning hands(which they didn't use) and oil and torches. the oil and torches were used to kill the beetle swarm. It does say in the module I believe that lit torches will do 1d3 damage to the beetle swarm. I ruled that beetles soaked in oil took 1d3+3 dmg from a lit torch.
Bocklin |
I ran the mining office encounter posted here so the party had a scorll of burning hands(which they didn't use) and oil and torches. the oil and torches were used to kill the beetle swarm. It does say in the module I believe that lit torches will do 1d3 damage to the beetle swarm. I ruled that beetles soaked in oil took 1d3+3 dmg from a lit torch.
I authorized them to turn oil flasks into mini grenades with a range increment of 10 ft. and doing 1d4 fire damage + 1 per adjacent square of the swarm.
So if they hit (or miss but it falls nevertheless on a square of the swarm), they do 1d4+3. If they miss and it falls directly next to the swarm it splashes it for 2 points of fire dmg.
I further ruled that transforming an oil flasks into such a mini grenade takes 1 full round action, igniting it takes a move action.
So they prepared a couple of these flasks (after the encounter with the first swarm) and walked around with them ready to be ignited. The second swarm was an easy fight.
Bocklin
Black Dougal |
The swarm really is a piece of cake as long as you have oil and torches.
This should only be a problem for novice players. My players routinely bring rope, oil, torches, flint, spikes, paper, quills, ink.
Actually, where they screwed up was not buying healing potions despite a lack of a cleric. The encounter with the wolves made them wise up in a hurry. They retunred with several potions and the 3rd lvl paladin NPC.
Stats wise, I let my characters roll 4d6 and discard the lowest die and then assign as desired. To further encourage them not to take wierd combos and create local characters I have characters starting in Diamond take a hero point to start.
said hero point they then could use once stats were assigned to replace the lowest stat score with a base 10 plus 1d8.
so, yeah, I got what I wanted which was plausible charcters starting in Diamond lake and my players got characters with generally good stats. Of course now the barabrian whose wisdom went from 4 to 17 is thinking of taking cleric levels.
Robert Hradek |
For example, toppling the stone in the Architect's area (DC 25) required the entire party of four to make strength checks (one primary, three aid another), and the primary still needed to roll a 17+ if all of the other three made their checks (19+ if only 2 of the three made it). Since taking 10 isn't allowed when using Aid Another, we spent a fair amount of time just rolling again and again.
On the sarcophogus in Area 7, it is impossible for our party's rogue to find the trap. The Search DC is 26, she has 1st level max ranks (4) and a +1 Int, and since it is a trap no one else in the party can attempt to aid.
For the stone, you could take 20, being that there is no penalty for a failing roll, like say with a trap.
And for the trap, you could use aid another to boost your chance of finding it.
Halber
I’ve Got Reach |
Chriton227 wrote:For example, toppling the stone in the Architect's area (DC 25) required the entire party of four to make strength checks (one primary, three aid another), and the primary still needed to roll a 17+ if all of the other three made their checks (19+ if only 2 of the three made it). Since taking 10 isn't allowed when using Aid Another, we spent a fair amount of time just rolling again and again.
On the sarcophogus in Area 7, it is impossible for our party's rogue to find the trap. The Search DC is 26, she has 1st level max ranks (4) and a +1 Int, and since it is a trap no one else in the party can attempt to aid.
For the stone, you could take 20, being that there is no penalty for a failing roll, like say with a trap.
And for the trap, you could use aid another to boost your chance of finding it.
Halber
Allow me to add my two cents to the discussion about the high DCs to find and disable traps:
I have no problem with it whatsoever. Our party's Rouge started with two feats being human: Martial Weapon Proficincy and Dodge. This is telling me, the DM, that although the Rouge has a lot of skill points in various skills (and I appreciate that as the DM), he/she isn't necessarily great at any of them. My player's think D&D is a fighting game, and subsequently view Skill Focus and other skill enhancing feats as a waste. Getting back to the point, if the Rouge had taken Skill Focus or any of the other feats, he/she WOULD have been able to find the trap and potentially disable it.
4 ranks plus 1 Ability bonus, plus 2 or 3 for skill focus/type feats.
Chriton227 |
For the stone, you could take 20, being that there is no penalty for a failing roll, like say with a trap.
He can't hit the DC by himself (Str +2), and taking 10 or 20 is specifically disallowed for the Aid Another action, so it defaulted back to lots of rolling. Not that I doubted they would eventually hit the numbers, it was just a matter of how long. If they hadn't used their rope and pitons to make a safety net in the passage to area 8 (they reasoned out the trap easily), they could have used the elevator to help pull.
And for the trap, you could use aid another to boost your chance of finding it.
None of the other party members have trapfinding, so they can't aid in the search for traps with DCs over 20. From the SRD: "In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a
task that your character couldn’t achieve alone."Chriton227 |
Allow me to add my two cents to the discussion about the high DCs to find and disable traps:I have no problem with it whatsoever. Our party's Rouge started with two feats being human: Martial Weapon Proficincy and Dodge. This is telling me, the DM, that although the Rouge has a lot of skill points in various skills (and I appreciate that as the DM), he/she isn't necessarily great at any of them. My player's think D&D is a fighting game, and subsequently view Skill Focus and other skill enhancing feats as a waste. Getting back to the point, if the Rouge had taken Skill Focus or any of the other feats, he/she WOULD have been able to find the trap and potentially disable it.
4 ranks plus 1 Ability bonus, plus 2 or 3 for skill focus/type feats.
Feats are in short supply for rogues. She intends to go Invisible Blade, which has two feat prerequisites. With her +1 Int, she can have 10 skills at max ranks. I think she currently has 8 at max and 4 at half max. With that many skills, she would still have to make a choice as to which one(s) would get the skill focus. In my experience, the sheer number of skills a rogue has makes it very unlikely that they will take skill focus, as it would benefit such a narrow subset of their abilities. In the campaigns I have participated in, Skill Focus is used by characters that have one or maybe two critical skills (Concentration for the wizard, perform for the bard, etc.) or by characters that have bonus feats but few skill points.
Her character's back story has her as the daughter of an aging employee of the Emporium who isn't earning as well as she used to. The PC is currently a performer (contortionist & dancer) at the Emporium, but is being pressured to begin working in the more lucrative part of the business. As leverage, the Emporium is claiming that her mother owes 100gp in back rent since she isn't earning enough to cover her keep. With this background, skill focus in search or disable device really doesn't fit the character background. Her search is +5, her disable device is +8 (+4 dex).
Philippe Dubois |
I just started AoW my players are Tiefling Rogue(ECL2) Catfolk Warmage(ECL2) Human Bard(ECL1) and a Half Ogre Barbarian(EC3). Ok so i am pretty generous since the average level ends up being 2 in an adventure designed for 1st. I also gave them 900gp to start. I did this because i play tested a good part of the adventure and got my ass whupped
We only had time to do the wolf encounter since there was alot of time spent on char creation and roleplaying. The half-ogre got hit by all 3 wolves on a surprise attack and was brought to -3 hit points. The others finished the wolves off after a few scary moments. We stopped right after.
Swarms always worries me for a low level group but a knowledge nature (or even bardic knowledge <u remember that story about the innkeeper who couldndt kill a swarm of centipedes with his club and used his torch instead>) can tell them the their immunities and vulnerabilities. My players have area effect spells and torches so they should survive it but im sure one or 2 will fall unconscious. The danger is that if a player falls and the swarm stays on them they would keep getting damaged.
Kid Dork |
I actually had a player throw his dice across the table in frustration in this module. It is very tough, with my players on their *third* trip back to Diamond Lake to get healing. (I really shouldn't be such a nasty DM and keep raising the prices for them, but hey! It's Diamond Lake, the mining Mos Eisley of my world). I like the idea floated above of adding a 3rd level paladin NPC, so I may consider that.
Yes, the wolves nearly wiped out the party. They have yet to trigger the beetle swarm, but there will be tears. Even if the players play smart--and mine do--this is tough one.
DMPugLW |
The difficulty of this mod just depends on what classes they have with them. I ran to threw in an encounter at the minning office like they suggest in Dragon, but instead of goblins I used 3 Lizard Men and a 1st level Lixard Man Sorceror. They wiped them out in 3 rounds and only 1 member took any damage. Since they have a warmage, the swarm will be a cake walk. I really don't think this party will have much of a challenge until they get to Kulen and the Observatory.
T-Bone |
Any magical trap is overly difficult for a first level rogue to find or disable (DC 25 plus spell level), although, 1st-level spells are rarely lethal on a failed Disable Device check. I usually don't have players roll for strength checks unless they are pressed for time or there is an immediate negative consequence for failure. In the case of the stone block in the lair of the architect I see no reason not to allow them to push it over with a description of how heavy it is and how exeting the effort is. Save the rolls for places where a randomizing element is needed.
As for the wolves, one color spray took out two and the other backed into it's den growling fiercly. It was slain later when the party was camped in the false tomb. It tried to ambush the lone PC on watch but failed at it's stealth check receiving a spiked chain critical hit for it's trouble. We ended with the broken elevator collapsing and the classic "we've got company" call as the swarm approaches. What worries me is that the party of six is split with three up in the passage of the face waiting for the sarcophagus spinner to open the door and three PCs on the floor waiting for bugs.