Besides sheer quality, fluency, ease of use and amendments ....
what differences have people found between the old 'dungeon' adventures and the HC adventures?
I noticed that in the write up for Life's Bazaar there is now mention of the ramafications to Ghelves after his self serving actions and 'alliance' with the Skulks. I like this as I could never really stomach Ghelves actions - Rat vs peoples lives including little children. It always seemed far to self serving to me.
Has anyone found any other additions?
Delvesdeep
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I'm going on total recall here, so I might be mis-remembering, but I'm sure someone is bound to correct me ...
Prologue/Intro
- Dyr'ryd's involvement is more detailed
- the write up on the Spire of Long Shadows foreshadowing AOW
- the research DCs for the Cagewrights
Life's Bazaar
- mention of the big bad slaver later on
- Keygan's stilts?
Flood Season
- leader of ebon triad who toddled off to join the Hexblades, rather than the gnoll creating the items
- the gnoll tried to become a vampire, not a lich
Zenith Trajectory
- introduction of many nobles in the Cusp of Sunrise
- Vhalantru collecting Zenith at the end
- Celeste being a ghaele eladrin (and captured, too!)
Lords of Oblivion
- a chance to rescue Celeste
Anyone else?
A section on taxes - a small section.
A timline from 3000 to 2 years before Life's Bazaar begins.
Specific write-ups on Kingfisher, Hollowsky and other regions around Cauldron.
I better read more carefully. So you say their is a chance to rescue Celeste in Lord Of Oblivion and Vhalantru collects Zenith at the end of that adventure. Interesting I will have another lokk through these parts.
I like the additional write up on the Taxes, Environs, main NPCs and history. I would have liked to have more 'appearances' by Cagewrights just to give the party a taste of the villians before attacking them in 13 Cages. It would make the adventure seem less staged and like a dungeon crawl and more like a satisfying/purposeful climax.
Has anyone noticed any more foreshadowing inclusions? The mention of a later villian here, a meeting with a baddy there etc.
Delvesdeep
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The dreams from Adimarchus are a good thing to foreshadow the plane of Occipitus. I have sent several dreams now with a Kathedral standing in a hellish surrounding and the same Kathedral in a peaceful surrounding where it is attacked by a horde of demons. The dreaming players immediately went to Vortimax Weer and Jenya about this, and both of them have promised to search for knowledge about these pictures, that were sent...
I've sent the dreams to those players, that had been infected with Filth Fever (from the Xukasus lair in Life's Bazaar).
If you are in league with the Striders of Farlanghn you can give them some files about the Cagewrights they know of...
To foreshadow the things in "Flood Season" one player had a romantic interest in Maple (the halfling rogue rescued from the forge). He witnessed a Discussion between her and Triel Eldurast. Afterwards Triel struck Maple down and left her dying as she left. Maple died in his arms (3 subsequently botched Heal checks to stabilize her). Triel was the former wife of Skylar Krewis and he told them the story of Triel's time in the Town Guard, and the way she massacred the patrol sent to apprehend her, leaving him severely wounded on the floor. Triel asked Maple to join her Alleybashers. Maple declined. Any persons to decline were sure not to betray anything about the new force in town.
The only difference I've really noticede was the lack of the 'wet light'.
During TotSE, one of the mummy proctors, after giving his monologue, disappeared in a puff of acrid smoke and wet light. The group of mine that is the furthest along got a big kick out of it, but in the hardcover, the mummy just sticks around.
Just found a good bit of foreshadowing that I didn't see in the original Life's Bazaar (went back and checked).
In the new HC version it states that (pg 63) Kazmojen has been brought into the slave ring of a more powerful slaver by the name of Vervil Ashmantle who is the one who told Vhalantru about Kazmojen.
Then in Kazmojen's secret vault (M11), the players can find a note from Vervil stating that:
"it's easy to become 'too successful' at this job, which usually results in the unpleasent involvement of jealous competitors or offended do-gooders. The letter closes by stating bluntly that if Kazmojen doesn't slow down on the abductions, he'll attract the wrong sort of attention."
The scroll this is on has hints that point back to Kingfisher Hollow from which Vervil operates but it would be difficult to track it back to Vervil himself. Vervil Ashmantle shows up in Lords of Oblivion.
Sean Mahoney
Alright, another fairly big one. Vhalantru now wears a Simulacrum Suit to change into the Lord Vhalantru that the PCs likely know and love. This is much more robust and makes more sense than always having Thifirane around.
Sean Mahoney
Yeah, I'd love a list of all changes, especially errata from the original magazine version--as that's what I've already paid for and have, I don't have any desire to pay more money for the same thing.
Anyone up for the challenge as I'm sure I'm not the only one?
Creative Director
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While I don't mind people using this forum to talk about the changes and errata we incorperated into the Hardcover edition of Shackled City, I don't want to see wholesale portions of the book posted here. Which is a cruel corporate way of saying "If you want all the gory details, you'll have to buy the book (or at least borrow a friend's copy)."
In any event, the new & corrected material is well over 30,000 words (and lots of new art and maps), so posting the contents would be pretty rough and time consuming. You aren't buying the "Same Thing" if you buy the hardcover, any more than gamers who bought the old "Queen of the Spiders" super-adventure were buying the same thing if they already had G1-G3, D1-D3, and Q1 sitting on the shelves.
Oliver, I like your dreaming idea. This will tie in well with a character that has the 'Haunted Dreams' Local Trait that players can take in the Character Creation Section in the Hard Copy. The idea is particularly good as it actually preludes and hints at a purpose to the adventure before and during the trip rather than just as an after thought.
The idea of having the Striders describe some of the Cagewrights is also a great idea. What would the descriptions look like?
I've heard about the idea of linking Triel to Skylar on previous threads and always liked the idea (was it from you?). I'm thinking of having Skylar make his first appearance as he arrests Ghelve at the end of Life's Bazaar. My party were never 100% taken with the gnome or his explanation of his inability to act to save the children so I don't predict any tears. He will be arrested for kidnap, pergery, theft and attempted murder (he panicked and attacked the party one session when he realized his acts would be eventually be revealed to the public - he stopped before causing any damage and apologised).
Alright, another fairly big one. Vhalantru now wears a Simulacrum Suit to change into the Lord Vhalantru that the PCs likely know and love. This is much more robust and makes more sense than always having Thifirane around.
Sean Mahoney
Do you know how this suit works?
I would also like to see Vervil make an appearance before the party confront him during Lords of Oblivion. Perhaps he could make a brief entre during a earlier adventure though I'm not sure which one at this stage.
I do like the new Hard Cover Inclusion on Celeste & Vhalantru. Entrapping her in a painting is an interesting image and excellent method of expanding her role in the Path.
Delvesdeep
Do you know how this suit works?
It is fully detailed in the appendix items section.
Sean Mahoney
Yeah, I'd love a list of all changes, especially errata from the original magazine version--as that's what I've already paid for and have, I don't have any desire to pay more money for the same thing.
Anyone up for the challenge as I'm sure I'm not the only one?
rfox, you are doing yourself an inservice not purchasing the Hard Cover. I collected all the magazines and I felt the same way you do - Why should I spend money on a Hard Cover which is merely a collection of the adventures stuck together in the one book.
Eventually I purchased the book, a bit hestitantly I must admit, and I was blown away! The whole first chapter is new - history, NPC summary, rumours, environs, Cauldron location descriptions, Taxes, Backstory that actually makes sense, Random Encounters for the area and thats all just in the Introductory Section.
The adventures have been revised and extra elements added. Extra foreshowing parts have been included and the adventures tie together much more fluently now. There is a lot more 'in between/around town' events that help the players feel more connected to the city, NPCs and plot in general. I love the included section on the Flood Festival which has a huge array of events, games and even a ball that the players can attend.
The Players Creation Section is a terrific addition and includes a section on Local Traits such as the Dream Haunted, The Scarred and others that give the characters benefits and negatives but do a great deal to adding flavour and a sense of belonging to characters from the area.
The new Prestige Classes for the Striders and Chisel are also tremendous as are the level by level NPC progression tables. This is going to make life much more easier for me as the players progress and interact with these ongoing NPCs.
The New Adventure - dispite some small concerns of mine - is also an excellent inclusion. The villian is certainly memorable (Bugbear Vampire) and the adventure helps to foreshadow the Half-Orc infusion later in the AP. The little goblin vandals and worg riding goblins are really cool.
The Maps are also fantastic. There is a great booklet which allows you to not have to continually be flicking back through the magazine to check where the players are etc and the oversized city map is excellent - and is numbered and labelled (something I really value). The map of Cauldron after being partially destroyed is also very useful to have.
There are also plenty of NPC illustrations which do not automatically indicate that they are villians or allies and are great. The players handout section is also a great bonus - no more cutting up my magazines - and include alot of new components.
I know there is a huge amount of additions I have not even mentioned or noticed yet so as you can see I certainly don't regret buying the Hard Cover. The book is one of my favourite manuals I possess and one I will probably use the most too.
Trying to gather information over the messageboards about the new additions isn't going to give you what you want. You might gain a few snippets here and there but honestly there is no way you could gather all the new information from here. You are doing yourself an inservice if you don't grab a copy.
Good Luck which ever way you go but take it from me if you grab a copy you won't regret it.
Delvesdeep
Do you know how this suit works?It is fully detailed in the appendix items section.
Sean Mahoney
Thanks I'll check tonight.
I wasn't aware of all the new content in the book, so please don't think I was asking for a free copy of the book text. Thanks, delvesdeep, for filling me in on the details.
I thought it was just a compilation ("shovelware" in computer game re-released collections terminology) of what was in the magazine.
Let me rephrase my request this way:
If I were to run the campaign with the adventures printed in the magazines (not talking about the new content in the book), what "gotchas" do I need to know about that have been corrected in the book? Is that information alright to give out?
There was a thread James Jacobs began while he was putting the Hard Cover together on all the glitches and inclusions people wanted to see in the new book. It was huge! Unfortunately I just scanned back through the past threads and it has fallen off the board altogether. If someone could tell you how to access the thread it would go a long way to helping you with your request.
Delvesdeep
I wasn't aware of all the new content in the book, so please don't think I was asking for a free copy of the book text. Thanks, delvesdeep, for filling me in on the details.
I thought it was just a compilation ("shovelware" in computer game re-released collections terminology) of what was in the magazine.
I'm interested in this thread because I'm still on the fence on buying the book (I intend to, but I just can't seem to get around to it). Every example of how the book improves on the modules pushes me closer to that probably inevitable purchase.
...I just scanned back through the past threads and it has fallen off the board altogether. If someone could tell you how to access the thread it would go a long way to helping you with your request.
Delvesdeep
that one's easy. Just do a search for Shackeld City Hardcover in the messageboards. It should be somewhere down the list, under archive. Or you could just open the archive and scroll down. Or you cold follow this link
I've heard the Ebon Triad has a beefed up roll in Shackled City to go along with it's roll in Age of Worms. How does this pan out?
I ask because I intend to play the two APs in reverse order so as to introduce the city of Cauldron to my players well before setting a campaign there. Once the Ebon Triad is defeated in AoW, will the encounters in Flood Season still be feasible? Can I get away with just saying Triel leads a band of clever bandits as originally written or is there now more to it than that?
I've heard the Ebon Triad has a beefed up roll in Shackled City to go along with it's roll in Age of Worms. How does this pan out?
I ask because I intend to play the two APs in reverse order so as to introduce the city of Cauldron to my players well before setting a campaign there. Once the Ebon Triad is defeated in AoW, will the encounters in Flood Season still be feasible? Can I get away with just saying Triel leads a band of clever bandits as originally written or is there now more to it than that?
There's a lot more background info on the Ebon Triad in the HC. The HC also goes into the extend of the triad's involvement in constructing the soulcages. And there's a nice little tidbit on the Triad's leader betraying them and joining the cagewrights.
Still, I substituted the Ebon Triad for the Last Laugh. Triel and Jil are members of a rival faction within the guild. That worked out just fine.
Just came across one that makes no sense to me.
The Common Raggamoffyn found in J31 of Jzadirune now has +20 hp for some reason. This is listed in both its hp total (MM2 lists as 16 hp and this one has 36) and in HD 3d10+20 (MM2 lists as 3d10).
Just checked the mag... it is consistent with the MM2. Not sure why or how this was changed, but I am about to start this encounter in 35 minutes and so will see how it goes... so far things have been really easy for the PCs (large group... currently 6 players, about to go up) so I will try the HC version.
Sean Mahoney
Alright... I changed tacks part way through this encounter. I had intended to use the higher HP, thinking there was a reason. However, the activities of my group changed that.
Now to understand their thinking here you have to have a little history so far. In the very first encounter the monk grappled one of the thugs who were assaulting the cleric (a PC in my game replaced Ruphus Laro). The rest ran away, but because of the one grappled one, there was info to be gotten that made RP much more fun for them.
Then, while half the party was fighting the Skulk in Ghelve's the other half was confronting Fellian and Fario who they happen to catch following them at the same point. Again the Monk grappled one and this led to an RP session during a standoff with swords drawn. Good fun again.
Finally in the first encounter in Jzadirune, the mage cast sleep and helped to capture a skulk alive which was taken back to Jenya for further questioning.
So they get to the Raggomuffyn and the huge tank decides it would be best if he grappled it. My plan was for the rag to go after the bard who was first in the room. I figured they would have a good chance of killing it before it even got him though. Instead, the grappled rag just switched to the fighter who already had initiated the grapple, but no pin and who then rolled a three on his Wil save... instant monster Raggomuffyn.
So I quickly reverted to the 16 hp version and was a little loose with the rules to allow for PCs who were grappling him to do damage directly to the rag instead of both. As it was, one PC was very nearly killed and the formerly possessed player was badly injured (the rest of the party figured the most logical way of getting it off was to set fire to it... guess they deal with a lot of ticks or something).
Anyway... very tough encounter for my PCs... I would definately recommend NOT using the extra 20 HP.
Sean Mahoney
The +20 hp is a result of the 3.5 changes to oozes and constructs- Oozes no longer get bonus hp for their size, but now constructs do (a nice boost to otherwise low hps). Thus, the rag's hp are correct.
Cheers!
Wouldn't you think that would affect the creatures CR then?
Sean Mahoney
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One thing that is very useful and new is the Cagewrights history/knowledge chart in the beginning of the book ... it allows PCs to research the big bad guys as they progress, learning more and more.
Also, there are planted "papers" that give a bonus to the knowledge checks along the way, as well as blatant hints (like Fetor's letter naming the Cagewrights) that give them the right questions to ask!