I haven't started Three Faces of Evil yet, but it seems that there are a couple of encounters that could end in a TPK, if everything goes well for the bad guys. I also considered the possibility that the party may be captured.
I really liked the encounter in The Queen with Burning Eyes (by James Wyatt in Dungeon #113) where the party was captured, only to be helped at a crucial moment. I've been going over the tactics to be used in the Citadel of Hextor to see if I can turn the events towards a party capture, instead of a TPK.
The cultists would then offer the PCs as a sacrifice to the Ebon Aspect, and as the Ebon Aspect rises, a cultist frees the PCs and gives them their weapons. The cultist would be a spy from the Free City sent to follow the dealings of some worshippers of the Ebon Triad, who are counted among the enemies of the Free City.
Has anyone run this encounter yet? How did it turn out? I'm interested if anyone needed to "soften up" the encounters at all to avoid a TPK.
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I ran the encounter and my party avoided the doubled doors to area 11 and went around. The halfling rogue snuck onto the balcony and sneak attacked the priest on the throne. The rest of the group stormed the balcony and then the clerics began to rain their spells on the group. They barely survived. But they trashed the grimlock cave with no problem
I ran the encounter and my party avoided the doubled doors to area 11 and went around. The halfling rogue snuck onto the balcony and sneak attacked the priest on the throne. The rest of the group stormed the balcony and then the clerics began to rain their spells on the group. They barely survived. But they trashed the grimlock cave with no problem
Hey guys- thanks for the input, again it brings to the fore how tough 3FOE can be. Especiallly if the PCs aren't up to using sound tactics, or, even if they are... potential for disaster.
Here is what I had to say about this on another thread:
(...) I pulled a TPK on my players on Sunday. The went for the Banite/Hextorian temple first, the cleric easily wiped out the skelettons with a well done turn attempt and they had a couple of lucky criticals to take care of all the cultists and Tiefling fighters.
Unfortunately "Beast" gave them a real hard time and by the time this horror was down they had depleted their healing resources.
Their logic was to push forward with the assault because they did not want to let the survivors (a couple of cultists had escaped deeper and warned the clerics) warn their leaders or the other temples. Perfect logic, I have nothing to say against that.
But they had used all their spells and the wand of burning hands was close to useless against the remaining Tieflings and Theldrik.
In the end, Theldrik managed to take them single-handedly. His Hold-Person prevented the last surviving hero (the cleric of Tyr, oh irony) to flee and he slit his throat...
I felt really bad, because they did not do any gross mistake and were even quite lucky with their rolls. So the only reason I saw for this, was that the set up led them to believe (rightfully so) that they had to press on in order to prevent the temples and the Banites to put up an irresistible defense. Furthermore they had slipped secretly in the mine and did not consider going back to rest on the surface.
TFoE is a player-killer in that it puts them under pressure to carry an assault through, but pits them against very strong opponents. Hence the equation "the stronger the opponents, the more often resting places are available" was not...
Now I find myself wondering if I will bother at all starting anew and let them roll new characters... There were also so many mistakes in the adventure that I felt a bit annoyed. Maybe I will just skip the AoW?
Sorry for sounding so bitter, but that's just how I feel...
Bocklin
Here is what I had to say about this on another thread:
(...) I pulled a TPK on my players on Sunday. The went for the Banite/Hextorian temple first, the cleric easily wiped out the skelettons with a well done turn attempt and they had a couple of lucky criticals to take care of all the cultists and Tiefling fighters.
Unfortunately "Beast" gave them a real hard time and by the time this horror was down they had depleted their healing resources.
Their logic was to push forward with the assault because they did not want to let the survivors (a couple of cultists had escaped deeper and warned the clerics) warn their leaders or the other temples. Perfect logic, I have nothing to say against that.
But they had used all their spells and the wand of burning hands was close to useless against the remaining Tieflings and Theldrik.
In the end, Theldrik managed to take them single-handedly. His Hold-Person prevented the last surviving hero (the cleric of Tyr, oh irony) to flee and he slit his throat...
I felt really bad, because they did not do any gross mistake and were even quite lucky with their rolls. So the only reason I saw for this, was that the set up led them to believe (rightfully so) that they had to press on in order to prevent the temples and the Banites to put up an irresistible defense. Furthermore they had slipped secretly in the mine and did not consider going back to rest on the surface.
TFoE is a player-killer in that it puts them under pressure to carry an assault through, but pits them against very strong opponents. Hence the equation "the stronger the opponents, the more often resting places are available" was not...
Now I find myself wondering if I will bother at all starting anew and let them roll new characters... There were also so many mistakes in the adventure that I felt a bit annoyed. Maybe I will just skip the AoW?
Sorry for sounding so bitter, but that's just how I feel...
Bocklin
No worries Bock, I think you're voicing a legitimate concern here. Maybe it'd be best if the PCs went up another level before hitting 3FOE?
No worries Bock, I think...
I guess it would have helped, Theldrik could have taken them single-handedly anyway.
He is quite optimised and with a well used combination of "Summon Monster III" + "Magic Vestment" (on his shield) + "Hold Monster" AND his +1 Full Plate he can take any lvl 3 party.
Maybe if they had been lvl 4...
Bocklin
So, with one win (Malik) and one loss (Bocklin), it does seem like it could go either way. And I really plan on hitting them hard.
The adventure says that the Hextorites tried to get the PCs into the central area, so I've been thinking about the strategies to do so. I plan on having NPCs bar all the doors other than the main hall, and then put up a false show of force as if they don't want the PCs to enter the room. I think that should do the trick.
Of course, since I plan on their capture, instead of a TPK, I won't hold anything back.
The skeletons attack and the PCs "spot" 2 cultists run down the hall towards the arena, which predictably they follow. And yes it was a near TPK (cept for the monk and a prostitute NpC make there stabilize saves, what are the odds???) Luckly for my players i put in extra tidbits for extra xp. The players are all about 1 lv. advanced for the encounters and the still almost die all the time. Iz a tricky thing this DMing thing wanna have iconic players and yet slay them all.
Every once in a while, you get in a situation where there's the potential of a tpk when it isn't the party's fault.
Now, IMHO you shouldn't be afraid to have a party member die due to just plain bad luck, and if it is the party's fault they're in a TPK situation (like going straight to the bottom level of a 10 level dungeon like my party did once) then wipe 'em out by all means, but otherwise you have a few options:
1) Fudge the die rolls. I hate this, but sometimes it's the only way. That's what the screen's there for. Just don't let the party know.
2) Fudge the enemy stats. Next blow kills the main enemy (he only had 12 hp), the summoned monster disappears a round or two early, whatever. More effective than #2 but still cheating.
3) The Cavalry. At the last moment, the town guard rushes in. Cheesy, but maybe you can pull it off. At high levels, this could be Divine Intervention, which i personally hate, but hey, it's your campaign. Could also be a defector who falls in love with a party member, etc.
4) Fudge the monster tactics. Have the monster just try to capture the party, as suggested earlier. If i was running whispering cairn again and all the players died from the beetle swarm, i would have them all wake up a day later at 0 hp. They wouldn't understand why they were spared - until the eggs started hatching. This is my favorite solution if you can think up something quick enough.
If your players are all so jaded that all of these options are too cheezy for them, then:
5) Let the party die. Hey, it's dangerous out there. This ain't Daisies & Dewdrops.
Thanks for the tips Sean.
I really liked the encounter in The Queen with Burning Eyes (by James Wyatt in Dungeon #113) where the party was captured, only to be helped at a crucial moment...
Wait a second, we were supposed to be helped? I just mind-thrusted the bad guys with my psion while the rogue EA'd out of his manacles. They were done in two rounds, tops.
1) Fudge the die rolls. I hate this, but sometimes it's the only way. That's what the screen's there for. Just don't let the party know.
Actually, my opinion is that the screen is there to prevent the party from meta-gaming the DM's rolls. A player sees the DM roll a 9 and ask the player if a 25 hit, then he deduces that the enemy has a +16 to hit. Since the PC's AC is 32, he knows that if he adds 3 to his AC from Combat Expertise, he optimizes his chances of hitting while minimizing his ability to get hit. Different DMs have different opinions though.
2) Fudge the enemy stats. Next blow kills the main enemy (he only had 12 hp), the summoned monster disappears a round or two early, whatever. More effective than #2 but still cheating.
3) The Cavalry. At the last moment, the town guard rushes in. Cheesy, but maybe you can pull it off. At high levels, this could be Divine Intervention, which i personally hate, but hey, it's your campaign. Could also be a defector who falls in love with a party member, etc.
4) Fudge the monster tactics. Have the monster just try to capture the party, as suggested earlier. If i was running whispering cairn again and all the players died from the beetle swarm, i would have them all wake up a day later at 0 hp. They wouldn't understand why they were spared - until the eggs started hatching. This is my favorite solution if you can think up something quick enough.
If your players are all so jaded that all of these options are too cheezy for them, then:
5) Let the party die. Hey, it's dangerous out there. This ain't Daisies & Dewdrops.
All good solutions. From my point of view, it all depends on the campaign. I run two campaigns right now, one is a role-playing campaign. Rules are kind of loose and I fudge die rolls from time to time if I think it will help advance the story (occassionally this means fudging AGAINST the PCs too). The other campaign I run is AoW, in which I specifically warned everyone involved that I would not fudge a single die roll and that their characters would suffer a fatal heart attack if I caught them doing the same. AoW is, IMHO, a traditional dungeon-crawl campaign with a story wrapped around it, as opposed to being the gooey center. Hence, part of the fun is knowing that if the enemy crits the last PC standing, he crits the last PC standing. It fosters good planning though.
I am really worried about my group. They just started cairn and right off they nearly died from the face trap, and the beatles, and the wierd thing with the eye and nerve rope, and they haven't even fought the water elemental yet. I've got this guy who played a spellcaster (wizard) for the first time in like 6 years so naturally he picked a dwarf, gave him a club and won't stop going into melee. They also have only three in the group, so oddly appropriate for three faces of evil, but they have no killing power. Worset of all that darned dwarf wizard is always the only one to live and just drags them back to the smashed mine office every time. If i want my party to live what character should i get to join the already pretty top notch team of a human fighter, dwarf wizard, and elven cleric.
Every once in a while, you get in a situation where there's the potential of a tpk when it isn't the party's fault. (...)
Thanks, Sean.
Actually I did quite a bit of dice fudgin in my years, but somehow got tired of it. My players are not so experienced and I also want them to teach them what it means to lose a character. So I guess that I somehow "let" this TPK happen... but it still p... me because I had not planned it. Strange thought, I know. I guess I would have rather let one of them die so the other learn, but here the odds were really overwhelming.
I already had delayed the "Summon M. III" by a couple of rounds to give them a chance to organise themselves and realize with whom they were fighting and I had Theldrik renounce on his "inflict wounds" (which would have been a killer with the low HP they had by that time).
Hating the "cavalry" option, I guess that I just went for your option 5. But I would have preferred to do so after bad playing on their part and not because the module's power was unbalanced.
Bocklin
I have a suggestion... tell your players before your next session to bring their character sheets with them, instead of having them make new ones.
Have Theldrick Raise the entire party, imprison them, then throw them into the middle of the battle temple against some sort of horrible beast. To make things remotely fair, he gives them mundane equiptment, (keep all of their magical gear,) and forces them to fight the beast to the death. Survivors are given a chance to convert to the cult.
The trick here is that the party can stand a chance of survival if they can get through the door into the temple, (it's only a normal door, after all,) and out of the complex without the Hexorites capturing them. The Hexorites haven't told the rest of the temple that the PCs are there... why spoil their own fun?
Or, you could have the dead pcs wake up from one of the Faceless One's experiements... maybe coming back as some sort of undead?
This is D&D... much like the comics, death is only a temporary condition.
Squid
1) So I guess that I somehow "let" this TPK happen... but it still p... me because I had not planned it.
....
2) Hating the "cavalry" option, I guess that I just went for your option 5. But I would have preferred to do so after bad playing on their part and not because the module's power was unbalanced.
Bocklin
Just a couple of thoughts inspired by Bocklins post -
1) Planning a TPK is just bad an wrong, if it happens it happens, but it cant be right for a DM to come to the table with the thought in their mind "tonight, I'm gonna wipe 'em all out".
2) The notion of a module being unbalanced because the foes are too powerful to overcome seems broken. It might say lvls 3-4 or the box, but if you figure that lvls 5-6 is better, than its down to the DM to hold off till the PC's can cut it. Or at least have a chance.
Just my gut reaction.
I agree with Hobbesgoblin, a DM actually planning out the death of an enitre party is a horrbile thing. Please don't give any of them ideas.
i don't think any DM here wishes a tpk but if the PCs are going to go in half-cocked as it were, they may deserve what's coming to them. 3FOE is a difficult adventure, and the concern here is, for me, anyway, that even with careful planning, it may be a TPK.
3FOE is a difficult adventure, and the concern here is, for me, anyway, that even with careful planning, it may be a TPK.
...hence my point number 2, above :-)
Sean posts tried and true tactics that a DM can use to help out the party a bit if he sees his story heading for the grave too early when the players were not at fault. In some adventures, this not only kills the PCs fun, but the DMs fun as well if his story was character-centric (can't have a heroic Vader transformation if Luke isn't alive to be shocked....oh wait, there is another).
I don't think I will have any of these TPK problems in 3FoE since my party will likely be 4th going on 5th level due to side adventures and such. And my 4 member party has no cleric, no wizard and no NPC companions.
Sean posts tried and true tactics that a DM can use to help out the party a bit if he sees his story heading for the grave too early when the players were not at fault. In some adventures, this not only kills the PCs fun, but the DMs fun as well if his story was character-centric (can't have a heroic Vader transformation if Luke isn't alive to be shocked....oh wait, there is another).
I don't think I will have any of these TPK problems in 3FoE since my party will likely be 4th going on 5th level due to side adventures and such. And my 4 member party has no cleric, no wizard and no NPC companions.
I'm making up some side adventures as well..
My party has only 3 PCs.. So I felt obligated to put an NPC in there. How the heck did your PCs get past the brown mold in the Whispering Cairn, Lair of the Architect? Or did they avoid it entirely?
3FOE is a difficult adventure, and the concern here is, for me, anyway, that even with careful planning, it may be a TPK....hence my point number 2, above :-)
Hence.. Errr.. Point taken. Pppppphhhbbblllltthhhh! ; )
Humm... I guess I did not mean "planned" but rather "foreseen". I don't ever remember coming to the table and thinking "let's wipe them out".
Let's just say that if, for a couple of sessions, they consistently play badly and go deeper and deeper until they put their characters in a situation from which there is no turning back, I have "foreseen" the TPK and can live with it.
Here it was not the case. I was surprised by it.
Of course I could have read through the module a bit better, I guess I would have also "foreseen" the TPK. Then I would probably have decided to reduce the dangers and make the Temple of Hextor more manageable. But I have a full time job and I count on Paizo to get their "overall EL" right (no hard feelings, though: I will still buy the mag! ;-)
So I am probably also bitter because I could have "foreseen" the TPK, had I read the module better.
Bocklin
PS: Thanks for the tip about the "raise dead" twist, but our group seems to be pass that episode and we are looking at starting another campaign.
Just a couple of thoughts inspired by Bocklins post -1) Planning a TPK is just bad an wrong, if it happens it happens, but it cant be right for a DM to come to the table with the thought in their mind "tonight, I'm gonna wipe 'em all out".
2) The notion of a module being unbalanced because the foes are too powerful to overcome seems broken. It might say lvls 3-4 or the box, but if you figure that lvls 5-6 is better, than its down to the DM to hold off till the PC's can cut it. Or at least have a chance.
Just my gut reaction.
airwalkrr, I'm surprised you didn't mention your near-TPK experience in 3FoE. That was a good read, and your idea in bringing in the rival adventuring party to "rescue" the PCs was particularly clever! For those of you who are interested, here is the link. Hope you don't mind, airwalkrr. :)
Wow, morbid endings. I have an interesting party:
They started at 3rd (I always do this with all my players, to give them experience for growing up in a harsh world).
They are:
1. Tiefling Barbarian/Rogue CN
2. Wizard/Transmuter NG
3. Elf Ranger who ran with dwarves (kinda surly sort)CG
4. Half Human (orc) LG Cleric
5. Human Monk/Wilder LN
6. Elf Fighter - N
7. Halfling Bard (CN) NPC
So far, they had the Tiefling go below Zero HP against the Wind Warriors and several of the traps hurt them. However, I decide to change and spice things up. There is an equally evil party of 4 Seekers in Diamond Lake watching their progress (A warlock, Duergar SoulKnife, Gnome Cleric/Thrall of Orcus, and a Half Orc Fighter). That keeps the party on their toes. My goal is not to kill them at any point. There are times I have to adjust the minions in the Whispering Cairn and I know I will with the Triad.
However, I play to take Erik's advice and a lair below the Ebon Aspect well. I am making it Vecna's original laboratory. This will keep them spinning and wondering. But, my advice to any who are killing their players: Either start them at 3rd level (that way less die) or adjust the encounters to allow for them to live. Don't have the baddies kill them outright. I liked the DM above who kept them to be sacrificed and them had a spy in the cult free them.
So, those are my thoughts and how I am adjusting it. What I love about the Dungeon modules is they give you most of what you need for a great adventure. Then, as a DM, I can add in my own twists and turns to spice things up.
Ric
Since my group has no wiz/sor, and thus, no area effect spells, they had to run screaming from the beetle swarm. I could hardly stop laughing, especially since they almost NEVER run away (one of the most memorable moments from our first campaign was the 9th level monk charging two fire giants saying, "Come on, we can take them!" A round and several amazing criticals later, the monk was at -70 health).
I scaled up 3FoE for the 4th level party that I have, and threw in two NPCs. They got done with the temple and only lost one of those two, Melinde from the Hieronean chapel (who died fittingly in combat with Theldrick and was quickly avenged). And, they made some huge mistakes; the cultists had more than enough time to fully prepared, and the party got bottled up in a position I considered tactical suicide, but they made it out with no problem, other than Melinde's death, but that was due to an unforseen series of poor circumstances for her. I love 3FoE.
AoW is, IMHO, a traditional dungeon-crawl campaign with a story wrapped around it, as opposed to being the gooey center. Hence, part of the fun is knowing that if the enemy crits the last PC standing, he crits the last PC standing. It fosters good planning though.
This is a good option IMO however it really helps if you have at least one veterean player if your going to go down this path. The Veteran will be able to at least get the problem solving and planning style across to the rest of the players.
Once the players start playing like this they will usually continue and play extremely well but I find they need some kind of a jump start to get into this in the first place.
Once here though they are bloody hard to kill. When my players are playing well they sometimes seem damn near unstopable. Usually becuase I have not realized some kind of combo between the wizrds spells, the clerics spells and the fact that the ranger can track or some other insane combo that my poor monsters never stood a chance against.
I am really worried about my group. They just started cairn and right off they nearly died from the face trap, and the beatles, and the wierd thing with the eye and nerve rope, and they haven't even fought the water elemental yet. I've got this guy who played a spellcaster (wizard) for the first time in like 6 years so naturally he picked a dwarf, gave him a club and won't stop going into melee. They also have only three in the group, so oddly appropriate for three faces of evil, but they have no killing power. Worset of all that darned dwarf wizard is always the only one to live and just drags them back to the smashed mine office every time. If i want my party to live what character should i get to join the already pretty top notch team of a human fighter, dwarf wizard, and elven cleric.
....Another Cleric...hell two might not be too many.
i don't think any DM here wishes a tpk but if the PCs are going to go in half-cocked as it were, they may deserve what's coming to them. 3FOE is a difficult adventure, and the concern here is, for me, anyway, that even with careful planning, it may be a TPK.
personally I live for TPK's - I just want to be able to cover my tracks. Plausable deniability is a critical component in a good TPK. You gotta be able to blame it on the dice or the stars or something...I mean most DMs are badly outnumbered by their players. DMing can be a high risk activity.
Chock up another TPK for 3FOE. Our session (and our Age of Worms game) ended last night with the death of the party near the rope bridge section in the grimlock caves.
Half-orc Scout 3
Human Sorcerer 3
Half-elf Swashbuckler 2/ Bard 1
Human Cleric 3
All standard point-buy.
Everyone was underneath the bridge near the pile of debris. In short order, they split up into two teams and managed to trigger all three encounters near that area at once--the grimlock barbarian, the grimlock guards and the chokers.
While the players enjoyed the variety and creativity of the Age of Worms encounters, they felt it was too unforgiving of any missteps. We'd had two PC deaths in the first 5 sessions and now 4 more in the 6th. That's the highest mortality rate of any campaign we've ever played. We're going to start anew after Gen Con with something less combat-focused.
Had another near-TPK last Tuesday. It was against Filge, of all people.
The reason: Bad rolls (nothing worse than casting True Strike and then rolling a 1) and bad tactics (doesn't everyone know that when your fighting a zombie master, you ignore the zombies and go straight for the master?). Soon everyone was unconscious, with some of them bleeding, except for one terrified gnome rogue running despretely to Allustan for help. Filge, out of spells and knowing the calvary is on the way, bolts in the opposite direction. The bleeding party members have to stabilize or die. That was some tense rolling there, let me tell you. Surprisingly, two party members actually stabilized. The other two bleeders, the bard and the barbarian, didn't make it.
Well, I had fun, anyway. And I thought it appropriate that on the 10th anniversary of Jerry Garcia's death, the Dead were triumphant.