So my players finally got to Zenith last night. They open the door to his room and hold at the doorway while they talk to him. He mutters some random things and the wizard quickly concludes that he has "lost it". The dwarf bbn/ftr downs a couple of potions.
After some more conversing but not really getting anywhere, the cleric casts hold person. Ok, fair enough. Not too unexpected. Zenith might have to make a few saves but it will only last 7 rounds and he should come out of it to fight them.
They spend another couple of rounds (while Zenith fails a couple more saving throws) discussing tactics and then the monk rushes next to Zenith. Roll init.
A couple of the PC's close in and then the monk acts.
He coup de grace's Zenithg!
Whoa. Not what I expected. The player did have a case about why he did it and it was legit. Basically, the monk is new to the group and wasn't around at the beginning of the quest. He didn't know they needed to take Zenith alive. Being LG and seeing all the hanging corpses, he took justice into his own hands. He dished out like 20 points of damage and Zenith failed his Fort save. Dead.
This won't really matter to the Cagewrights as long as they get the body back but depending on what the PC's do, it will definitely affect what kind of reward they get, if any. They do have a raise dead scroll as well so I'm curious if they'll use it on Zenith.
Something to consider is when you try to raise someone their spirit knows who you are, what your alignment is etc. So that may put the Cagewrights in a bit of a pickle. LOL! City saved and they don't even know it.
I have to go with Coup de Grace a held oponent is not a good thing to do and definitely a violation of LG. There were many other options available to the monk from binding to manacles, to wailing on him for non-lethal damage (the monk is uniquely gifted in this way). Maybe lawful, but definitely evil. I see it as a bored pc and if they're that capricious I would discuss with the player if they feel able to play a lawful class.
Being LG and seeing all the hanging corpses, he took justice into his own hands.Taking the Law into your own hands is not lawful.
According to who? Perhaps by "today's" laws but that has nothing to do with a medeival fantasy interpretation. You could even argue he did the merciful thing by killing him quick and painless. Remember, this character was not aware they were trying to bring him back. He knew he was evil (from detect evil) and saw the corpses and made his own conclusion. I was surprised but I didn't think twice during the game.
Something to consider is when you try to raise someone their spirit knows who you are, what your alignment is etc.
Where did you get this from?
I have to go with Coup de Grace a held oponent is not a good thing to do and definitely a violation of LG. There were many other options available to the monk from binding to manacles, to wailing on him for non-lethal damage (the monk is uniquely gifted in this way). Maybe lawful, but definitely evil. I see it as a bored pc and if they're that capricious I would discuss with the player if they feel able to play a lawful class.
Wow, I'm really surprised at the responses on this. IMO, you can't use current society's views on law to define alignment in a fantasy setting. Perhaps the monk in question LG with respect to his teachings and views on evil. If he is unwavering in his quest to rid the world of evil, how is that not LG? He used a mercy killing to dispatch his evil opponent. He also knew that leaving him alive may have resulted in one of his ally's being harmed.
Alignment isn't a black and white issue. There are many shades of gray to every alignment.
Also, the player in question is one of the best in the group. He is knowledgeable of the rules, never argues, and plays cool characters.
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Regardless of whether CDG'ing poor addle-brained Zenith was a LG thing to do or not, here's what I'd make the repercussions...
1) Gortio/Papa Splintershield will NOT be happy. No reward, and if you can work it in, a blood feud with the Splintershields -- the PCs were asked to rescue Zenith, not gakk him.
2) Of course Embril will arrange to raise Zenith -- they need that 13th sacrifice. If not, there are other persons around with the Carcerian sign - it's a hassle to go round another one up, so another reason for the Cagewrights to hate the PCs.
3) Last, because they botched the mission, word should get out around Cauldron that the PCs bungled it, and whether they are LG or not, it should be muttered in inns and taverns the PCs are cold-blooded mercenaries, and those Stormblades are so much more heroic ...
Of course, that's how this Rat-Bastard DM would run it.
My PCs are just going into Flood Season right now, so time will tell how my PCs manage.
1) Gortio/Papa Splintershield will NOT be happy. No reward, and if you can work it in, a blood feud with the Splintershields -- the PCs were asked to rescue Zenith, not gakk him.
Problem with this one is that it isn't REALLY Papa Splintershield and while there was probably a Papa Splintershield somewhere he doesn't know about this.
2) Of course Embril will arrange to raise Zenith -- they need that 13th sacrifice. If not, there are other persons around with the Carcerian sign - it's a hassle to go round another one up, so another reason for the Cagewrights to hate the PCs.
The best part of this adventure is the realization later that the PCs were actually doing the work of their enemies. Don't take that away. If they leave the body behind, then look for other places that they save someone and use that person as someone with the Carcerian Sign.
3) Last, because they botched the mission, word should get out around Cauldron that the PCs bungled it, and whether they are LG or not, it should be muttered in inns and taverns the PCs are cold-blooded mercenaries, and those Stormblades are so much more heroic ...
I am 100% with you on this one! Any excuse to make them hate the Stormblades more.
Sean Mahoney
And then the mage, being a suspicious bastard, uses the Temple Mace Commune to ask "Is returning Zenith to the people who hired us beneficial for him?". Uhh.... noo....
So Zenith's hanging out in the Temple of St. Cuthbert now...
Interesting... how did he get ahold of the Mace of Commune to use it?
As for Zenith hanging out in the Temple that is no problem... there are plenty of times that the PCs can't be gaurding it and there is enough chances with chaotic stuff going on that you can get Zenith out of the temple and into a cage... if not sooner you can do it during the eruption.
Sean Mahoney
Of course, that's how this Rat-Bastard DM would run it.
All good points. It will depend a lot on what the PC's decide to do. They could return his dead body and lie (not a good idea). They could return his dead body and tell the truth. They could also use the scroll of raise dead they have on him.
Bringing a dead body back to the Cagewrights doesn't really matter - they just need the body. Of course the PC's don't know that. The only thing it will effect is their rewards and reputation if they lie.
If they raise Zenith, most likely no one will be the wiser.
Question #1: Why did Zenith waste time parlaying with the PCs?
Speaking is a free action, so he could have "prophesied their dooms", gotten a pithy reply from the party and thrown his glass orb (and released the invisible stalker), either before initiative was rolled or as the first action - Zenith was waiting for the party to arrive and could be considered 'readying action' to throw the globe to lead off the initiative order, regardless of what he rolled.
Any other speaking could be done as free actions as he and the party prepped and closed for battle...
But then, a few bad rolls and failed saves could still doom anyone.
Regardless, the monk was neither Lawful nor Good in murdering Zenith in cold blood - Evil nature or not, he gave him no 'due process' nor solicited any confession. The party is going to lose a ton of good will in the city and certainly get no reward of any kind from "Papa Splintershield/Orbius".
M
I'd hate to turn this into another alignment argument thread, especially since you seem to have an established line of ethics set for your game. However...
Even if the monk wasn't in the meeting to discuss what was supposed to happen, he should have been completely filled in by the rest of the group as to what their mission was.
Even if Zenith were evil (now), it should have been abundantly clear that he was once a great leader of the Cauldron dwarves. He could have been viewed, even by LG zealatous characters, as redeemable.
The party has no indication, other than detect evil (which isn't much), of the depraved situation of Zenith. All of the dead corpses could have been presented to him by his evil followers... not simply killed by his own hand. For a Lawful or Good character to simply pass judgement without more information, and without provocation from Zenith himself is disturbing.
As noted above, as a helpless character, he could have been bound, thus negating any perceived possible threat to his fellow party members. And, as written, Zenith becomes docile once he is captured... not that the players would have known that.
Also... coup de crace is a full-round action. Any of the other characters would have been able to stop him. Your exalted wizard may have done enough to lose his exalted feats for not stopping the monk.
Is your cleric Lawful or Good? He too could have stopped the monk. Even if the monk thought he was acting according to his alignment (which is debatable), that doesn't hold true to those who allowed him to do so. The cleric may be surprised to find that he can't access his spells for a week or so.
And what about the invisible assassin? He should have picked an opportune time to attack. When the characters opened the door to Zenith's chambers and started chatting, the assassin should have had the surprise attack, allowing Zenith a chance to join in the fray as you see fit.
I have issues with what happened, and if it were in my campaign, I would consider having the monk lose his Lawful alignment (for his condemning Zenith without justification) and/or his Good alignment (for killing a helpless person without provocation).
But, again we all, as DMs, set our own definitions of morality and ethics to suit our needs in our campaigns. So however you handle it is the right answer. Rock on! And let the PCs stick it to the Cagewrights.
Oh, and another thought.
You may deem their actions permissible under their circumstances and alignments, but to the rest of Cauldron, they just killed a Hero.
Question #1: Why did Zenith waste time parlaying with the PCs?
Well it does say right in the module "...he's willing to listen to any entreaties from the PC's."
I thought it was much cooler that he wasn't a raving lunatic when they found him. I basically played him like Brando from Apocalypse Now. He would listen to them and spew his prophecies and fight if attacked.
Regardless, the monk was neither Lawful nor Good in murdering Zenith in cold blood - Evil nature or not, he gave him no 'due process' nor solicited any confession. The party is going to lose a ton of good will in the city and certainly get no reward of any kind from "Papa Splintershield/Orbius".
Well again, everyone seems to have a very black and white definition of alignment. All of the reasons cited are why I really hate alignment in general, especially LG. Why can't a LG character be a ruthless hunter of evil, making no exceptions along the way? I'm extremely loose on my interpretations of alignment. As long as the player plays his character consisently, I'm fine with it.
As far as the goodwill of the city, we will have to wait and see. I think it really depends on the characters. If they return his dead body (and try to lie about it), they certainly won't get any reward, but I don't think the people of Cauldron will turn on them, at least right away. Aside from Vhanlantru's crew spreading rumors, how will the citizens even find out?
Even if the monk wasn't in the meeting to discuss what was supposed to happen, he should have been completely filled in by the rest of the group as to what their mission was.
I did mention this but I let the player(s) decide. It's not my place to make decisions for the players or their characters.
Even if Zenith were evil (now), it should have been abundantly clear that he was once a great leader of the Cauldron dwarves. He could have been viewed, even by LG zealatous characters, as redeemable.
Well I think that's a leap. If I was playing this, I'm not sure
I would think that.As noted above, as a helpless character, he could have been bound, thus negating any perceived possible threat to his fellow party members. And, as written, Zenith becomes docile once he is captured... not that the players would have known that.
I agree on all points, and that's what I fully expected the party to do. Like I said, I was surprised how it turned out.
Also... coup de crace is a full-round action. Any of the other characters would have been able to stop him. Your exalted wizard may have done enough to lose his exalted feats for not stopping the monk.
Well it's a full-round action, not a 1 round action. No one was really near the monk when he acted.
And what about the invisible assassin? He should have picked an opportune time to attack. When the characters opened the door to Zenith's chambers and started chatting, the assassin should have had the surprise attack, allowing Zenith a chance to join in the fray as you see fit.
Do you mean the invisible stalker or Saagogoi? The IS didn't "appear" until after the sphere broke, which didn't occur until after Zenith was killed (and he dropped the sphere). They killed Saagogoi before they entered the room.
You may deem their actions permissible under their circumstances and alignments, but to the rest of Cauldron, they just killed a Hero.
How does "the rest of Cauldron" even know who Zenith is?!
Zenith is described as "a righteous dwarven defender and the lord of the Malachite Fortress that guarded the underground approaches to Cauldron." He served in that position long enough, and well enough, to have his statue erected in the foyer of the Malachite Fortress, which is called "Zenith's Hall." And he'd only been gone about 10 years since "he recruited a small army for a crusade to rid the Underdark of evil."
Okay... I'll admit that the rest of this is pretty much just my interpretation and imagination going in one direction. But I'd imagine that many of the people who have lived in Cauldron at least 30 years would have known who Zenith was, and anyone who has had an interest in the security of the city (for the past 20 years) would almost have to have known of him, if not met him.
Now, I brought up the "death of a Hero" strictly for role-playing opportunities, and I didn't mean it to be an attack against your judgement for your game. So, just think:
Zenith Splintershield is dead at the hands of the PCs. Lord Vhalantru could arrange a large funeral in his honor. During all of this, Vhalantru makes reference to "the unfortunate conditions" that Zenith was in, and about the irony that he was killed by those who tried to help.
After the funeral, the Cagewrights could take Zenith's body for a raise dead spell, or other spell of the same nature. Since Zenith died in his evil and demented state, his spirit may be willing to come back to life to be part of the Cagewrights' plan, and at the same time not willing to return to his body when/if any non-evil aligned person (including any of the party members) tries to do the same.
So now Vhalantru is able to subtly turn public opinion against the PCs, and get Zenith back to the Cagewrights.
After reading all of your responses, I see why you've made the judgements the way you did. I also prefer a wider view of alignments as set in a world of different ethics and society values. Not to the extent as you have, but more than others that I have talked to.
And you're right... you did tell us all up front that the encounter didn't go as you expected. Heck, it's even in the title of the thread.
I've been thrown off many times by what players have done, or how they handled situations, so I know where you're coming from.
So, maybe you can use some of the ideas here as role-playing fodder. Maybe a quest to make the players feel better about themselves if they feel like they need to... or atone, if you feel like they need to.
If there is any more tension against the PCs in Cauldron, it can influence the players reactions in the up-coming tax riot. And anything that makes the Stormblades look better than the PCs is always another great motivator for the players to try to one-up them.
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If I am reading this right the existing party bump into this wandering itinerant monk (who is lawful good), somewhere between Cauldron and Bhal-Hamatugn, and he just joins them. He doesn't ask what they are doing, or why, and they don't think to tell the specifics of their mission and their contract either. Is it just me or is that quite a whimsical and random, dare I say chaotic, sequence of events? Doesn't seem very lawful to me, good and evil to one side. To uphold the law criminals must been seen to be punished by recognised authorities of the law. This came up for us last night in Flood Season.
The Ftr/Clr(Saint Cuthbert) managed to capture some of the thugs and Alley Bashers at The Lucky Monkey. Although Shensen specifically recognised some of the ones as being responsible for killing Sarcem, he had to saty his hand so justice and the law could seen to be served publically in Cauldron. He didn't like it but it was lawful.
If I am reading this right the existing party bump into this wandering itinerant monk (who is lawful good), somewhere between Cauldron and Bhal-Hamatugn, and he just joins them. He doesn't ask what they are doing, or why, and they don't think to tell the specifics of their mission and their contract either. Is it just me or is that quite a whimsical and random, dare I say chaotic, sequence of events? Doesn't seem very lawful to me, good and evil to one side. To uphold the law criminals must been seen to be punished by recognised authorities of the law. This came up for us last night in Flood Season.
The Ftr/Clr(Saint Cuthbert) managed to capture some of the thugs and Alley Bashers at The Lucky Monkey. Although Shensen specifically recognised some of the ones as being responsible for killing Sarcem, he had to saty his hand so justice and the law could seen to be served publically in Cauldron. He didn't like it but it was lawful.
This pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make about the Monk not ACTING monk-like...
Glassjaw's fine DMing aside, this appears (to me) to be a case of a naturally Chaotic PERSON role-playing a CHARACTER poorly, with the adventure plot and the rest of the player group suffering the burden of having to adjust accordingly.
It appears that the majority of posts agree that the monk did not act in a manner befitting a lawful alignment, regardless of class. If a DM allows a very liberal interpretation of alignment (up to and including the complete disregard for alignment at all), does it mean that a Lawful character is free to act in any way they feel is appropriate, as long as it is consistent and within the character's idiom?
Can a Paladin be so fanatical...so fervent in his hatred of anyone and anything Evil, that he would himself impulsively commit atrocities to see Evil be purged? Is that ultimately Good? Is it Lawful? Of course, a good reading of the 'Book of Exalted Deeds' or the 'Book of Vile Darkness' might be in order...
...but, to allow free rein of actions, especially in Lawful characters, without potential for punishment and atonement not only allows for the abuse of certain Character classes for the sake of using their abilities for selfish purpose (i.e., "CE" Paladins, "CN" Cavaliers, etc.), it would strip the game of an entire range of story lines, and some character classes of their defining essence:
- Paladin loses focus, must quest and atone (with no alignment restrictions, there would never be any digression NOR atonement)
- Cavalier champions on behalf of a cause (why follow a cause - I'm a kick ass warrior!)
- Clerics devoutly serve their flocks (why serve them? I want to go adventuring and get rich)
- Etc. Etc. Etc.
From what I've seen in players over the years, 90% prefer Chaotic alignments over Lawful ones because:
A. - They're much more easy to play, since they aren't "bound" by any restrictions on their behavior;
B. - They're a lot more FUN to play, for the same reason;
C. - They can be as impulsive and self-serving as they please without any in-game "penalties" on their character.
To these players, I usually say, "Good luck and have fun, but learn how to play a character other than yourself - you might be surprised."
D&D used to be about ROLE PLAY - but lately, I get the impression it's become a fantasy-themed tactical simulator...
{/rant}
M
Good points, all.
Trust me, I certainly think the player could have chosen an action that better fit his character. In hindsight, I really wish I spoke up during the game. The player in question is a good player, one of the best in the group. Maybe that's what I didn't make more of a stand, I don't know. I have talked with the player in question since and I think it was decision that was made in haste and one that probably wouldn't be made if the events were repeated.
If nothing else, some interesting developments could occur moving forward. I'm not going to outright penalize the player but depending on the party's next actions are, I'm potentially going to make life very difficult for them.
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By this time, my group had two wizards- an enchanter and a regular wizard who had unofficially "specialized" in necromancy. Between the enchanter's numerous touch of idiocy spells and the necromancer's final feeblemind, all it took was a simple charm person to send the drooling Zenith with them back to town, safe and sound.
At least it was funny watching people get attacked by the invisible stalker- it took a few rounds for them to figure out what the mystery damage was about.
Ok, so we finished AP3 last night.
The party cleans up the rest of Bhal-Hamatugn, including fighting Dhorlot. He smacked them around a bit but an Inflict Critical Wounds and a crit by the archer sent him running and he was able to escape.
After they were done, they head back to town. They first rest and cast speak with dead on Zenith. His answers now are even more cryptic than when he was alive. They decide to return to Davked.
Davked is shocked when he enters the room and sees Zenith's dead body. Long story short, the party (completely unapologetically) tells Davked that Zenith was evil and they killed him. Once again, I was pretty surprised by their actions here. The cleric of St. Cuthbert had some pretty strong words as well.
Then the dwarf speaks up and completely THROWS THE PARTY UNDER THE BUS! Oh man, it was great. He starts pointing at the rest of the party and tells Davked that he tried to save Zenith and that he didn't want to kill him. He tells Davked it was the monk that delivered the killing blow as well. I couldn't have scripted it any better.
Davked/Gortio is very pleased by this course of action. He sees it as a chance to create an internal rift in the adventuring party that has been a thorn in their side up to now. He ends up giving the dwarf his share of the treasure but no one else. He also allows the dwarf to take Zenith's axe as well. To further this rift, Gortio will begins to spread rumors (or just tell the truth perhaps) about the party's "true" colors. This should make for an interesting AP to come. ;>)
My group will be taking a break from the SC AP while we start AoW! Another player in the group will be running AoW and we are going to switch back and forth as we finish each module.