Is the Forgotten Realms a dying rpg world? I know many of the Realms hard core fans will see this and cry out it's not true or you couldn't be more wrong, I respect that, I too would fight to defend my favorite game world. First, let me state that when I first started role-playing it was in Greyhawk but eventually we moved to the Forgotten Realms, but when I got a little older we moved onto a more "mature" setting like Dark Sun. With the advent of the open game license we have been introduced to more exciting and in my opinion better game worlds like for example Aryth from Midnight or Monte Cook's Land of the Diamond Throne. I know many realms fans will point to product sales and claim that the realms have never been selling better. My response would be look how the product line it distributed. If it isn't Eberron, they slap the Forgotten Realms logo on it. For example, look at the Serpent Kingdoms book, this accessory can be used for any generic game world in fact it seems more appropriate for Greyhawk but instead it's given credit towards being a Realms product. I see this as an attempt to keep the realms afloat. The Realms is like a bloated beast that feeds on everything around it, very soon there will be nothing left to feed on but itself. The best thing WOTC was to have the open game license, this opened the door to vast untapped potential. However it put the first nail in the coffin of the Forgotten Realms. I would be interested in hearing what anyone else would think.
For what it's worth, I think so, and I blame pure overexposure more than anything else. During the 90s especially, there was an unbelievable deluge of material. Sadly, due to the sloppy quality control TSR showed during that era, a lot of it was really mediocre (and a little of it really bad). There were gems, too, but they were diamonds in the rough when viewed in the context of the massive volume of material and lax product standards.
I think that WotC was really hoping that by emphasizing quality a lot more and quantity a lot less, they could reverse the trend and make FR as popular and profitable as it was at the height of the TSR glut, except this time without the same disgusted burnout and backlash. They did a good job (the current run of FR material is the best since the Grey Box era by far), but I think that for the most part the damage was done. The new material was forced to integrate a lot of really shoddy continuity (like the Time of Troubles, the Cyric novels, etc) and the burnout and backlash from the glut seems like a wound that can be bandaged, but not really healed. A setting with that much history and continuity can also intimidate new players and foster arcane trivia fetishism that make the setting's fandom just as intimidating as the material itself.
My (completely unsupported by objective evidence) theory is that Eberron is intended to provide a fresh slate to capture the wider audience that the new FR material, which mostly appealed to die-hard Realms fans, wasn't able to.
So, yeah, I see it as a world that appeals mostly to a slowly-dwindling number of hardcore fans, not unlike Greyhawk, and in that sense it's "dying." It's not a "world on the grow" so to speak.
Make sense?
"My (completely unsupported by objective evidence) theory is that Eberron is intended to provide a fresh slate to capture the wider audience that the new FR material, which mostly appealed to die-hard Realms fans, wasn't able to."
Unsupported? Mabye. Untrue? Possibly.
But, i believe it as well. The ground-up approach, lack of epic-level NPCs (and lack of high-level NPCs in general). specfic-yet-vague presentation, and emphasis on the PCs being the true stars of the show (or at least major players therein) all seem to suggest to me that Eberron is the anti-Forgotten Realms, a world attempting, sometimes desperately, to avoid the mistakes of its predacessors.
"Mistakes" might be too harsh a word, FR (and many other settings of the time) were the end result of "This looks good" planning- Things that might not have been done if anyone had known any better at the time.
I think FR's biggest mistake, besides being a slave to its own metaplot and having too great a love of Epic NPCs, is that it bases its metaplot on the novels. Inadviseable, as events in the novels sometimes can do a number on the setting as an entity.
... I don't know anything about the Eberron novels, though, and I am wondering what effect, if any, they will have on Eberron...
Still. FR seems to be "dying" in the sense that it certainly isn't getting any more alive. Bit of a pity, because there's a good setting under all that metaplot...
Creative Director
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I wouldn't say FR was a "dying" world. It's still recieving regular support from WotC, for one thing.
Dungeon starts up Eric Boyd's three-part Vampires of Waterdeep campaign arc in issue #126.
Dragon has a lot of FR content coming soon too, but them Dragon editors are cagey and I'm not sure what they've come out and announced yet so I don't wanna steal their thunder.
Well, yes, but game settings aren't people. "Dying" is used by me to indicate a game world that is currently losing more users and fans that it's gaining. Eberron would be an example of the opposite: A settings that's gaining more devotees than it's losing at this point in time.
Also unlike us, a "dying" setting or game will probably never actually "die." People will play FR campaigns for a long, long time even if there's never another book or magazine article published for it again.
Basically, we're saying that it's reached the peak of its popularity and will now, barring a major miracle, continue to decline in that regard indefinitely.
It's post-shark jump, in short. Which is an observation and not a value-judgement.
Using this logic... aren't we all dying?
Yes, but some people, like you, are dying, even though they're on the up-and-up, doing things with their life, which would make you Eberron.
Meanwhile, there are those, like myself, who are dying and are stuck in place, unable or unwilling to do anything to truly turn the downward slant their life is on around, making me, I suppose, Forgotten Realms.
Neither of us are going anywhere any time soon, of course...
But there's a distinction there, however subtle.
I wouldn't say FR was a "dying" world. It's still recieving regular support from WotC, for one thing.
Dungeon starts up Eric Boyd's three-part Vampires of Waterdeep campaign arc in issue #126.
Dragon has a lot of FR content coming soon too, but them Dragon editors are cagey and I'm not sure what they've come out and announced yet so I don't wanna steal their thunder.
I guess that's the point I'm trying to make James. Instead of worrying about the content of the material WOTC or Dragon publishes for the Forgotten Realms, your answer was to point out the sheer volume of material your working on. You can produce volume after volume of accessories and adventures but if it's old and uninteresting where do you go from there?. The realms might have a few years left but with the other superior game worlds to choose from the Forgotten Realms is quickly becoming a relic from the 2nd edition age. Sorry, but I for one will not be sad to see it go.
For example, look at the Serpent Kingdoms book, this accessory can be used for any generic game world in fact it seems more appropriate for Greyhawk but instead it's given credit towards being a Realms product.
Actually, I was really looking forward to Serpent Kingdoms, and was disappointed because I thought it was *too* specific to the Realms. I mean, some of the material in that book is just *arcane*. The level of Realms detail and minutiae(sp?) made it nearly unusable for me, and I'm an FR fan!
In some books, the detail is good, because it provides lots of cool and interesting hooks, and gives me ideas to work with--that is, it lights up my imagination.
But in this book, the detail just seemed somehow oppressive--it actually shut down my imagination and intimidated me. I was a little depressed by it.
I GM a Forgotten Realms campaign and have been for about 4-5 years now. I find FR as vibrant and interesting a game world as Eberron, or any of the others. Where one sees the amazing amount of FR game material as a "glut", others, like myself, see it as an opportunity. I've looked at Monte Cook's new sourcebook(s), Green Ronin stuff, Midnight, and IMHO they are derivative of good ideas that originally appeared either in FR or in Greyhawk. I don't really dislike any of them, but also I don't really find anything compelling there either.
I GM a Forgotten Realms campaign and have been for about 4-5 years now. I find FR as vibrant and interesting a game world as Eberron, or any of the others.
To each his own. If you and your group of players are fans of the FR then by all means enjoy yourself. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the FR will always have its core base but the vast majority of the RPG community see the FR as a "starter" world and that with the other excellent setting available it has passed it's prime like Greyhawk (which I'm a big fan of) or Dragonlance. Just the way of the world, the old makes way for the new.
"Just the way of the world, the old makes way for the new."
Exactly. It'll always have importance and a following, but it's not really reasonable to assume that that following will grow indefinitely and will not eventually begin to erode after it does stop growing due to the influence of so many new settings competing for the same pool of gamers.
This is not an "attack" on FR that loyal Realms fans need to "defend" against. It's just, as you said, the way of the world. All game settings wane in relevence to the current state of the RPG hobby over time.
"I've looked at Monte Cook's new sourcebook(s), Green Ronin stuff, Midnight, and IMHO they are derivative of good ideas that originally appeared either in FR or in Greyhawk. I don't really dislike any of them, but also I don't really find anything compelling there either."
Well, to be fair, probably the majority of what we think of as D&D was forumlated during Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign. And Gygax and Greenwood obviously owe guys like Leiber, Vance and Tolkien for their ideas in turn. I don't see taking inspiration as something to look down on. I mean, is it more correct to say that Midnight takes its ideas from Gygax or Tolkein? Does it even matter in any meaningful way if the result is playable and fun?
I have been an avid FR fan since they remade it for 3rd edition and have bought every single sourcebook and many of the novels since then, but I have even pretty much stopped playing FR (except for the new AP that im converting) and focused on my homebrew. So as a FR fan I have to grudgingly admit that it has reached its pinnacle, or may be after the release of Champions of Evil and the Waterdeep sourcebook which I think will be a tremendous boost for the setting.
Is the Forgotten Realms a dying rpg world?
.... For example, look at the Serpent Kingdoms book, this accessory can be used for any generic game world in fact it seems more appropriate for Greyhawk but instead it's given credit towards being a Realms product. I see this as an attempt to keep the realms afloat.
Dying? I do not think so. Wotc has more FR products this year than ever (5 books, if you include Sons of Gruumsh). (The TSR days was off course a different matter)
The standard on the FR books is very high. Lost Empires of Faerun and Serpent Kingdoms have been very well recieved by the hardcore fans (check out the candlekeep boards) for presenting lots of spanking new content to the setting. Content that feels alot like true realmslore. Your points about SK actually fits Underdark far better.
I think that FR is not the flagship anymore. I believe the new books are more difficult to use for the average D&D fan, but accomodates the FR fans better by providing more lore about the setting and less ready-to-play material.
Don't get me wrong. I am very happy about this. I gladly pay more for my beloved FR books as long as the current trend continues.
The idea of Eberron as the anti-FR fits this reasoning, as I believe that setting is more focused on action.
"The standard on the FR books is very high. Lost Empires of Faerun and Serpent Kingdoms have been very well recieved by the hardcore fans (check out the candlekeep boards) for presenting lots of spanking new content to the setting...I believe the new books are more difficult to use for the average D&D fan, but accomodates the FR fans better by providing more lore about the setting and less ready-to-play material...Don't get me wrong. I am very happy about this. I gladly pay more for my beloved FR books as long as the current trend continues. "
This is exactly the point. This is who these books are for and who is buying them. Hard-core fans are not an incredibly huge group or a growing one, just one that will reliably buy several thousand copies of each new hardbound. The relevence of FR to the mainstream of the hobby, on the other hand, is in steady decline.
"The standard on the FR books is very high. Lost Empires of Faerun and Serpent Kingdoms have been very well recieved by the hardcore fans (check out the candlekeep boards) for presenting lots of spanking new content to the setting...I believe the new books are more difficult to use for the average D&D fan, but accomodates the FR fans better by providing more lore about the setting and less ready-to-play material...Don't get me wrong. I am very happy about this. I gladly pay more for my beloved FR books as long as the current trend continues. "
This is exactly the point. This is who these books are for and who is buying them. Haed-core fans are not a, incredibly huge group or a growing one, just one that will reliably buy several thousand copies of each new hardbound. The relevence of FR to the mainstream of the hobby, on the other hand, is in steady decline.
Thank you Yamo, that was my feelings as well.
This is exactly the point. This is who these books are for and who is buying them. Hard-core fans are not an incredibly huge group or a growing one, just one that will reliably buy several thousand copies of each new hardbound. The relevence of FR to the mainstream of the hobby, on the other hand, is in steady decline.
Well, yes, possibly. IMO it is a good thing. As long as wotc service the niche as well as they do at the moment, they should be able to maintain the current consumer base for years. This does not make the setting "dying", more like a low-maintance cash-cow.
Well, yes, possibly. IMO it is a good thing. As long as wotc service the niche as well as they do at the moment, they should be able to maintain the current consumer base for years. This does not make the setting "dying", more like a low-maintance cash-cow.
This is exactly the point. This is who these books are for and who is buying them. Hard-core fans are not an incredibly huge group or a growing one, just one that will reliably buy several thousand copies of each new hardbound. The relevence of FR to the mainstream of the hobby, on the other hand, is in steady decline.
"Nothing is easier than self-deceit.
For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true." - Demosthenes
Heheh. Very true.
However, that does not mean that being a cash-cow is a bad thing, or that imment death is the next logical step. A fast growing fad (like Pokemon or the "new economy") yields high profits, but goes away after a while. Safer household products (like mid-sized cars or food) give less profits per unit, but can continue for a long time if it is done right.
That said, FR will never again be the only dominant setting, or cutting edge, or even innovative. The nature of the cash-cow is to deliver the goods for its niche. The same goes for goes for Greyhawk, although I am not sure why FR got the upper hand. Probably blind luck, or some poor business decicions at a more critical period for those settings.
"The same goes for goes for Greyhawk, although I am not sure why FR got the upper hand. Probably blind luck, or some poor business decicions at a more critical period for those settings."
Politics, essentially. There were some bad feelings toward Gygax at TSR even after he was forced-out, and there was a conscious decision to minimize use of "his" setting and come up with a replacement that covered a lot of the same ground, but didn't originate with him. Ed Greenwood's homebrew, which he had already made oblique references to in dozens of Dragon articles, was seen as a good bet to fill that role, so the rights were purchased in the late 80s. Then the huge flood of FR material started and the rest is history. Greyhawk has be supported only in brief, widely-spaced spurts since then.
That said, FR will never again be the only dominant setting, or cutting edge, or even innovative. The nature of the cash-cow is to deliver the goods for its niche. The same goes for goes for Greyhawk, although I am not sure why FR got the upper hand. Probably blind luck, or some poor business decicions at a more critical period for those settings.
Greyhawk was an old RPG world at the time, the hard core fan base literally grew up and moved on. TSR at the time made the right financial decision and developed and supported the FR for a new generation of people. If Eberron is as successful as the WOTC hopes it will be it will do the same thing to the FR eventually.
Perhaps. If they are similar enough to attract the same fanbase. The times are changing, the fanbase change, so wotc are smart to offer something new.
I see the settings as different enough to service seperate niches, so I am hopeful. (Hmmm.... this is probably what the die-hard greyhawkers said in the last days of that setting)
I like both settings, and would hate to see either go away. It seems to me that we see DM products, so maybe wotc managers finally have realized that they need to produce more than just character generation books to keep the game healthy.
I do not think Forgotten Realms is dying, but it has stabalized. The Realms are like a good female friend you had in high school, if you took her to the prom you would have a great time, but predictable night. Eberron is the slutty chick that everyone talks about the things she would do in the sack or car or cafeteria; you are in for one hell of a prom night. Now the realms are established and well defined, which may be good for some people, but Eberron is new and flashy(wears suggestive clothes.) Now they are very similar but stable does not mean dying, it means reliable. I think Lord vile and Yamo are looking at the realms as old news, but I think it has done well. Greyhawk has the Living Gazeteer and plods on, Dragonlance has a new publishers. The Realms has made it to the top shelf and will be there for a while. Eberron is new, maybe better to some people, but we all know with whom we went to prom. So saying the Realms is dying is like saying a steak is better rare as opposed to well, it is an individual's choice.
I think Lord vile and Yamo are looking at the realms as old news, but I think it has done well.
The Realms has made it to the top shelf and will be there for a while.
As I quoted earlier:
"Nothing is easier than self-deceit.
For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true." - Demosthenes
I reply in kind with Tommy Boy:
"You can take a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it?"
I reply in kind with Tommy Boy:
"You can take a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it?"
LOL - I guess only time will tell if Eberron usupers FR as WOTC premier RPG world.
I see the settings as different enough to service seperate niches, so I am hopeful. (Hmmm.... this is probably what the die-hard greyhawkers said in the last days of that setting)
I think you are right Snotlord. Eberron is a flashy, action setting with railroads and airships. It serves a different crowd than the canon settings do and was chosen in an effort to market to younger gamers and keep the hobby fresh with new blood. This does not mean that FR is dead, just that it targets a different market. Players, like myself, who want a more archetypal campaign setting with lots of published material, choose FR because it is well-supported and easily meshes with the standard concept of D&D. I am not a FR hardcore fan, nor do I own most of the hardcover sourcebooks, but I enjoy gaming in the Realms because it is well-defined and has a rich background.
The relevence of FR to the mainstream of the hobby, on the other hand, is in steady decline.
Not to stir the pot and purely out of coincidence, what are you using as the basis for this rather broad statement?
"Not to stir the pot and purely out of coincidence, what are you using as the basis for this rather broad statement?"
Personal experience and common sense, I suppose. With all the new and well-executed settings out there today for D&D/d20 games like Eberron, Midnight, Iron Kingdoms, Dawnforge, Arcana Unearthed's setting (can't recall the name) and so forth, it just doesn't make sense that a setting which premiered in the 80s and which isn't presenting any bold new ideas anymore could be as relevent or more relevent to either new gamers to or old gamers looking for a new angle today as it was at its peak over a decade ago.
I mean, it makes sense to me, anyway.
Personal experience and common sense, I suppose. With all the new and well-executed settings out there today for D&D/d20 games like Eberron, Midnight, Iron Kingdoms, Dawnforge, Arcana Unearthed's setting (can't recall the name) and so forth, it just doesn't make sense that a setting which premiered in the 80s and which isn't presenting any bold new ideas anymore could be as relevent or more relevent to either new gamers to or old gamers looking for a new angle today as it was at its peak over a decade ago.
Surprisingly this is far from what is being seen in the entertainment industry, specifically in regards to computer games. The most anticipated games are all based in Forgotten Realms (NWN2 and BG3). The two games based out of Eberron, Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach and Dragonshard, have many complaints in regards to their current setting. Sure, there's the whole new slate with which to build upon with Eberron and Xen'Drik itself, but Forgotten Realms for most gamers interested in the new material seem to have a soft heart for the story that they've known all these years. The Eberron novels also haven't done as well as the Forgotten Realms novels. Though, that may be heavily due to the editing work on them, which was very poor in comparison.
First off, Greyhawk didn't die, it became the default setting. When it first was "axed" it was due to the fact that TSR had several campaign worlds going at once and the Greyhawk stuff wasn't selling that well. When it was offcially axed, tons of fans got upset about it and eventually it was relaunched with "From the Ashes" which sold really well. The thing about Greyhawk is that it doesn't change a whole lot, and it has always been a setting where modules drove things more than sourcebooks did.
Also, on the relevancy issue. If I had told you as far as fantasy goes, the Lord of the Rings has nothing to offer modern fantasy fans becuase it was introduced so long ago and since then so many fantasy series have cropped up, how likely are you to think that my arguement is valid? I'm not sure what should be offered as "new" in a setting, other than exploring regios that haven't been and updating rules from previous editions.
Eberron's introduction did remind me of FR in that WOTC declared that everything found in D&D is in Eberron, and that Eberron is going to bring the next generation of gamers into D&D. I was not particularly thrilled with that assumption, nor did I like the concept that kids don't like "Medieval Flavored" fantasy anymore, so they had to make a psuedo modern world. Dispite all of that, even if it does manage to pull in more younger gamers, I don't think D&D is going to go "all Eberron all the time."
As much as I love the Realms, I bounced back and forth between the Realms and DragonLance when I was younger as a DM, and my friend bounced back and forth between Greyhawk and Ravenloft as a DM (ah, to have that much time to game again).
Finally, my friend in my gaming group has only been gaming for a few years. He was introduced by college friends and played Spycraft, Shadowrun, and Star Wars. When he started getting into D&D he picked up FR sourcebooks. Now that he is used to the Realms, he is starting to read the novels, and his friend, who had only played "standard" D&D played a dwarf in our group and fell in love with the Dalelands.
I don't think this setting is losing its appeal as long as people are willing to look. If people aren't looking, it isn't the setting, its the marketing.
Greyhawk was an old RPG world at the time, the hard core fan base literally grew up and moved on. TSR at the time made the right financial decision and developed and supported the FR for a new generation of people. If Eberron is as successful as the WOTC hopes it will be it will do the same thing to the FR eventually.
Eberron's been out for about a year now, hasn't it? I bought the campaign book but nothing after that mostly because I'm not currently running a campaign in it and the game I'm in now is Realms-based. Are there a lot of Eberron campaigns being run out there? If so, are you buying all the products? Anyone know how well it's doing?
- Chris Shadowens
I reply in kind with Tommy Boy:
"You can take a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it?"
"...Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's ass by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?...No, I meant, you can get a good look at a T-bone steak by sticking your head up a butcher's ass... No, wait. It's gotta be your bull..."
(I like it better when Tommy gets it wrong) :D
- Chris Shadowens
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Well, No offense to anyone here, but everyone in my group has read Eberron, and we all decided it just was not for us. Mr. Baker did an awe inspiring job of creating a new setting, but we all felt that, yes, it was aimed at the 13-17 year olds. We have been exclusively FR and homebrews. I am doing Age of Worms, and it wll be the first Greyhawk based game in 20 years for us. The core 3 of our group has been gaming together since 1985, so, we are looking forward to it.
"...Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's ass by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?...No, I meant, you can get a good look at a T-bone steak by sticking your head up a butcher's ass... No, wait. It's gotta be your bull..."(I like it better when Tommy gets it wrong) :D
- Chris Shadowens
Yeah I like it too. Chris Farley was hilarious. Sorry, now returning thread back to its regularly scheduled on topic posting.
Surprisingly this is far from what is being seen in the entertainment industry, specifically in regards to computer games. The most anticipated games are all based in Forgotten Realms (NWN2 and BG3). The two games based out of Eberron, Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach and Dragonshard, have many complaints in regards to their current setting. Sure, there's the whole new slate with which to build upon with Eberron and Xen'Drik itself, but Forgotten Realms for most gamers interested in the new material seem to have a soft heart for the story that they've known all these years. The Eberron novels also haven't done as well as the Forgotten Realms novels. Though, that may be heavily due to the editing work on them, which was very poor in comparison.
Hmm... The computer games aren't a good illustration though. My wife loves the computer games, but has never seen the Realms outside of that context. Same with most of my friends... I know a lot of people who seek out the video games but have never seen the Realms.
I think the real reason the Realms games are better-received is that they're a lot closer to what people imagine as D&D -- armour, swords, magic, monsters. Eberron, though, is a complex setting with a number of concpets that fall far outside of the usual swords-and-sorcery high fantasy stuff that even non-gamers understand. Lightning rail? Dragonmarks? Warforged? It's the very things that make Eberron a fascinating campaign setting that make it unapproachable for the average video game player. Forgotten Realms serves as an excellent backdrop because it really is so generic and mundane, whereas Eberron suffers as a result of its innovation.
Personally, the reason I dislike FR is already in this thread: too much existing plot, too many existing Epic NPCs. When you play in the Forgotten Realms, you've got to take into account all these other stories that people have already told about the world. With Eberron, there's no worry about that: you can have the characters do virtually anything without fear of a player saying, "But Drizzt already killed this guy!" or the like.
Basically, I think FR is going to die because if you're not a fan already, there's just too much there to make it worth your while to really get into it, rather than just creating your own homebrew. What I think is going to happen is that at some point, Wizards is going to come up with another new campaign world that's got a fairly generic high fantasy feel (the default D&D atmosphere), with enough detail and interesting intrigue etc to spark the imagination and provide fertile breeding ground for adventure without the metaplot and backstory and Epic NPCs that are weighing down the FR. It may take a decade or two before Wizards gets to that point, but if the FR isn't attracting new fans, it's only a matter of time before the existing fan base stops buying the products. It's pretty near impossible to "reset" FR to make it more appealing to new folks, because a lot of what the fans love about it (the history, the Epic NPCs, etc) are the barriers that are making it hard for newcomers to get into it.
Remember, Oldsmobile did really well for a long time by focussing on the needs and wants of their existing fans. And then the fans all stopped buying new Oldsmobiles (generally because they died of old age) and the line's finished now. I see FR going the same way.
With all due respect, I would take a wee bit of umbrage at the term mundane being applied to the Forgotten Realms.
I understand that you like Eberron, and it fills your needs. That is wonderful. But to argue that becuase it is new and has non traditional "fantasy" elements, and that it has LESS backstory are all pluses that put it ahead of FR is rather strange to me.
First let me say that Eberron may be around forever, it may be the thing that draws millions of new young players, and 20 years from now people may be predicting its demise and talking about it has too much back story and how all of its "steam punk" elements have been done to death.
I guess what perplexes me here is that it seems like some people are arguing about how imminent the demise of the Forgotten Realms is becuase it will make their choice to game in Eberron validated. In 2nd Edition, I DMed FR and DragonLance, and my friend DMed Greyhawk and Ravenloft. Eventually he lost Greyhawk support and I lost DragonLance support, but neither of us felt like we had backed the wrong horse. We played with what he had and if we wanted to move on, we found a new setting or shifted to our alternate setting.
I have heard some of this before. As I have said, Eberron may be around forever, and I am not predicting its demise. But wheather it lives or dies is based on how dedicated its players are.
Dark Sun was going to be the ultimate game setting becuase it ditch the standard preconcieved fantasy notions by making a dark grim violent world of powerful PCs and alien monsters.
Birthright was going to be the ultimate game setting becuase it was more sophistcated, and it let the PCs be the main focus of the world, not high level NPCs, and it was a logical, deep, yet new setting.
So now we have Greyhawk as the default setting, a lot of support for Forgotten Realms, and the DragonLance novels still doing very well, the main campaign setting being published by WOTC and SP doing the suplements.
No Dark Sun, Birthright, Planescape, Spelljammer, Mystara, and Ravenloft is fully farmed out to a 3rd party publisher.
This is not a shot at any of the above settings, its only an admonishment not to get too cocky or sure that "new" equals "better." I have looked over Eberron rulebooks, and read the Dungeon adventures, and it does look well thought out and fun. Its just not what I would choose for my campaigns. I might even try a PC in someone else's session, but its not the "feel" I can get into to DM it.
In the end good luck to all of you who enjoy Eberron, and I hope you do your best to support it. I hope it lasts a lot time and brings you lots of gaming happiness. I only ask that you think for a moment about wheather you are predicting the demise of FR because it is logical, or because you feel that you must be validated in your choice of the "next big thing."
With all due respect, I would take a wee bit of umbrage at the term mundane being applied to the Forgotten Realms.
I say that it's mundane because it is. Take out the backstory (the novels, the adventures, the computer games, etc) and you've got a pretty generic campaign setting, at least in comparison with the dramatic change in feel that you get with Ravenloft or Eberron. The history that's been thrown in is pretty cool, but the reality is that FR has a generic "feel". It's intended to be typical high fantasy.
I understand that you like Eberron, and it fills your needs. That is wonderful. But to argue that becuase it is new and has non traditional "fantasy" elements, and that it has LESS backstory are all pluses that put it ahead of FR is rather strange to me.
Actually, I doubt that I'll run an Eberron campaign. I've tossed the idea around a few times, and it's definitely got a lot of interesting elements, but if I ever do run an Eberron campaign it'll be because my players just want a quick series of adventures with a different flavour from normal... Sort of a vacation from our normal type of gaming.
I started playing D&D with first edition. I've been around since before the Forgotten Realms were. :-) And the truth is that I've never once been interested in running, or even playing in, a campaign set in Forgotten Realms. The reason for that is that it's somebody else's story. There's already a set plot, a set direction that the world must take. There are set players already shaking up the landscape. There are schemes already in motion with which I can't tinker without wrecking untold other things that I really don't care about. The existing story for Forgotten Realms makes it hard for me to create my *own* story and throw it out there, whereas in a campaign setting like Eberron, there's no real set background of world-changing events that I have to take into consideration. I can create my own adventure and shake up the world however *I* want. It's what makes it a great campaign setting. It's not one I'm likely to use (the feel of it isn't really suited to the style of campaign I like to run) but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate good design when I see it.
Here's what it comes down to: People like Forgotten Realms for the stories, and Eberron for the world. (Put another way: People like FR for what's been done to the world, and Eberron for what they can do to the world.) Both are valid for different reasons and different players. Neither is the "right" way to play or enjoy D&D, and neither approach is inherently better. However, Eberron is likely to be much more approachable for new players than the Forgotten Realms, because there's less backstory and plot to learn and memorise.
I guess in a roundabout way from two different directions we agree on the point you made in the end. They do service different people's needs and desires for how to run a campaign and what they want to do with it. If Eberron fills a person's needs thats great, if you want to create your own, thats great. I guess I just wonder why the death knell for FR on this thread is all.
And although I love this setting as well, your "The Campaign Already Has a Predetermined Course" arguement is much more acurately leveled at DragonLance than the Forgotten Realms. As far as worrying about destroying what others have set in motion, I would be willing to bet that a DM that really likes Eberron is just as unlikely to allow Sharn to be destroyed and shake up the pre-established world as I would be to allow Waterdeep to be destroyed.
But I really like and appreciate your points, I just disagree that a "standard" fantasy world is mundane, at least in part becuase I don't think you CAN take away the backstory and the lore in FR and still be running a Forgotten Realms game. No, most people don't play becuase Harper Agent or Purple Dragon Knight Prc are so cool, they take those classes becuase they love the Harpers or Cormyr becuase of the lore.
I would also like to point out that if Eberron drawn in new people that is great, but I bet eventually some of those new people will be curious about FR (and Greyhawk, and DragonLance) and may migrate, or at least adopt a secondary campaign setting.
I don't run a Forgotten Realms campaign, but I don't think that in any way means that it is dying. Forgotten Realms does have many products out there, and I agree that when I looked over the Serpent Kingdoms, not a lot of the information was Realms Specific, and when it was, it was easily reformatted to fit whatever campaign I wanted it to fit. But quite frankly, all articles or books talking about another setting are like that.
FR receives regular support from great writers, and it is one of the few settings to recieve regular articles in Dragon and Dungeon (though Eberron is seeing some support too, which I applaude). The noevel line is thrilling and the characters great, so FR will never really die, I think Ed Greenwood's creation will not only make a lasting impression on D&D but on the entire genre of Fantasy Literature.
I play my own campaign world, but I regularly use Realms content, and I even have a loophole that allows me to slip in trips to Faerun when I want my characters to get a taste of one of the greatest settings ever.
I run Greyhawk now, but I ran the Realms as my campaign world from 1988 to 1998 and I bought the 3rd edition Realms book. It's excellent. A lot of the complaints about the Realms revolve around having to keep the campaign you're running consistent with the novels and previously published material. My answer is--no you don't. The Time of Troubles never happened in my Realms campaign because I thought it was stupid.
If some player said "but Drizzt already killed this guy! " as was mentioned before, I would laugh and ask him who the hell Drizzt is?? (must be some kind of figment of the character's imagination :-)
DMs are in control of their worlds, no one else. My current Greyhawk campaign starts in CY576 and it probably will not look like the Living Greyhawk sourcebook in CY591 after 15 years of campaign play.
So, the Realms are only dead if you want them to be.
I think Forgotten realms will keep a ceretain core audience {like me}, and attract a few more every now and then... however, most people like the "new and exotic" as it were, so they flock like sheep to settings like Eberron or whatever else is new. After a time, they'll figure out what setting they really like, and everything will stabilize.
As a retailer, I ask for a product's trade dress from my sales rep when it's announced. I used to order extra copies of a D&D book if it carried the FR trade dress. Then I started ordering fewer.
FR titles are currently selling (at my old store) about 25% of the number of generic titles. They were selling almost 100% for the first three releases under 3E.
Eberron is selling about 75% compared to generic titles.
I'm curious Lloyd, how are now standard TSR worlds selling? I'm a big fan of Midnight and Dawnforge and a few other game worlds. I'm sure they can't match the game production machine of the Forgotten Realms or Eberron but I would like to know how big of a bite the little guy is taking out of the Empire (WOTC)?
Eberron is currently outselling FR, judging by what the owner of my local gamestore is telling me. Which is good for D&D, and thus Forgotten Realms as well. (D&D is doing better than ever, according to the same guy)
I think the real test for Eberron, now that is a hit, is two years down the line. Will the Eberron tire of the setting, and we'll see a new setting to fill the "new-and-trendy" niche in the market.
Surprisingly this is far from what is being seen in the entertainment industry, specifically in regards to computer games. The most anticipated games are all based in Forgotten Realms (NWN2 and BG3). The two games based out of Eberron, Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach and Dragonshard, have many complaints in regards to their current setting. Sure, there's the whole new slate with which to build upon with Eberron and Xen'Drik itself, but Forgotten Realms for most gamers interested in the new material seem to have a soft heart for the story that they've known all these years. The Eberron novels also haven't done as well as the Forgotten Realms novels. Though, that may be heavily due to the editing work on them, which was very poor in comparison.Hmm... The computer games aren't a good illustration though. My wife loves the computer games, but has never seen the Realms outside of that context. Same with most of my friends... I know a lot of people who seek out the video games but have never seen the Realms.
I think the real reason the Realms games are better-received is that they're a lot closer to what people imagine as D&D -- armour, swords, magic, monsters. Eberron, though, is a complex setting with a number of concpets that fall far outside of the usual swords-and-sorcery high fantasy stuff that even non-gamers understand. Lightning rail? Dragonmarks? Warforged? It's the very things that make Eberron a fascinating campaign setting that make it unapproachable for the average video game player. Forgotten Realms serves as an excellent backdrop because it really is so generic and mundane, whereas Eberron suffers as a result of its innovation.
Personally, the reason I dislike FR is already in this thread: too much existing plot, too many existing Epic NPCs. When you play in the Forgotten Realms, you've got to take into account all these other stories that people have already told about the world. With Eberron, there's no worry about that: you can have the...
you say it halfway through: warforged. i HATE warforged and everything associated with warforged. Nothing pisses me off more than opening a box of d&d minis and pulling a warforged. Also, in my gaming communities i've yet to meet anyone interested in eberron. iron kingdoms yes arcana unearthed yes eberron no. let me reiterate. DO AWAY WITH WARFORGED!!!!