Remember the Minis are for the D&D Miniatures Skirmish Game and not for D&D.Why would you say that? They are for both.
MI
Because if they were game aids, any more than say pieces to a monoply game are, you would be able to buy them singly from the producer, and thus be able to only buy the figures you wanted.
They are designed for the miniatures game where it doesn't really matter what the figures are, or how many of the same one you have. The point value is the main thing. You can always field a bunch of Wood Woads even if you have no idea what the hell they are.
Now, the fact that some of the figures happen to represent creatures that a DM might want to use as game aids is pure conicidental just as the chance of getting the particular figure you want to use as a game aid by buying a box is.
ASEO out
What they need to do is release the minis as singles with a different base color that is illegal for D&D miniature game play...
That really would not effect the price at all.
Well, the rairity would not matter, so the minis could be sold purely based on production cost + profit margin. No longer would a small miniature sell individually for more than a huge figure.
Maybe sell them without the cards.
I doubt that would affect it much either
Once again the idea is keeping the minis sold as game aids from corrupting the Miniatures game.
I'd pay $3-5 for a large figure, and would probably buy 50 of the things from the different sets.
Since they have started up with uncommon large minis, that is possible to do. There are some good ones, too: trolls, ogres, dire bears, weretigers...
True, and I have picked up some commons and uncommons, but the real cool minis that I would get some real use out of...Blue Slaad, Displacer Beast, Carrion Crawler, Beholder,...I can put down quite a large list of the rare's here..but I'll save readers my pipe dreams...are all price inflated because of their value to the Miniatures game.
But Hey, I'm not the customer they are looking for...
Don't be so certain. There are literally tons of good minis to be had for a reasonable price.
But why should my purchases be limited by the value a figure has in a game I have no intention of even using the minis in. For PC minis I don't think you can beat Reaper.
Why do the large figures havs a 1.5 inch base instead of a 2 inch base?
Large minis have a 2" base.
My displacer beast and Dire ape have 1.5 inch bases...maybe I have flawed minis or they changed thiings receintly.
ASEO out
True, and I have picked up some commons and uncommons, but the real cool minis that I would get some real use out of...Blue Slaad, Displacer Beast, Carrion Crawler, Beholder,...I can put down quite a large list of the rare's here..but I'll save readers my pipe dreams...are all price inflated because of their value to the Miniatures game.
ASEO, you're joking right? The beholder is the only half-decent skirmish figure you just listed.
The reason why the figures you listed cost so much is because of the RPG game, not the skirmish game.
It says right on the box that these are intended for RPG play. The fact is that less than 10% of the available figures show up in the tournament scenes. The majority of figures are created for their use in the RPG.
As for some helpful suggestions, Chraals make good subs for Blue Slaads, and you could use Dire Wolverines as decent sub for Displacer Beasts. We could really use a good large uncommon for a carrion crawler; perhaps underdark will have something wormy. And if you need an army of beholders I feel sorry for your players!
You say that the aftermarket price doesn't help WotC. It most certainly does. If people know that a chase figure like a beholder will be worth $30-40 down the road then they'll easily order two or three cases for resale.
It takes a ton of micromanagement to find buyers for specific minis and to track down which figures sell well and which don't. It's thousands of times easier for a large corporation to design a large variety of figures on a constant basis and just ship them out randomly. Think of all the time saved in inventory management!
I knew a lot of people back when MtG was big who never played the game but had binder after binder of cards. Just last week I met two kids in a hobby shop who own a few dozen miniatures but have never played the RPG or skirmish game. People like collectibles, and the current business model, IMO, the best thing that could have ever happened for D&D miniatures.
As one of the largest fan sites for DDM says:
"Merric's Law of Miniatures: Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, and a Large Range of Figures: Choose two."
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"Well, the rarity would not matter, so the minis could be sold purely based on production cost + profit margin. No longer would a small miniature sell individually for more than a huge figure."
Aseo,
Inherent in your apparent disgust with the miniature pricing scheme for D&D minis is a misplaced sense that rares are being overcharged for by WotC, and that the "true" price is the same as that attached to commons.
You are fundamentally in error.
WotC has created a scheme of marketing that allows them to incur substantial set up costs for a given run of a set of 60 miniatures. They have done this by marketing their miniatures in such a way as to create incentive in the purchaser to buy the product in a volume greater than they otherwise would if sold individually.
The overall setup costs are recovered by this scheme.
They do this because it is overall volume of figures sold that permits WotC to make the investment to create a large and varied line of pre-painted and pre-assembled injection plastic miniatures, while at the same time permitting a profit to the company.
WotC’s costs of good sold is not the same for every miniature. Many miniatures are more complex to model, cast in a mold, paint and assemble than others.
Here is the part you plainly don’t get: the durability of a mold is finite for a given number of injections. These molds are for injection plastics and they are hella-expensive to create. (Some are more hella expensive than others).
Far more molds of the same mini are required for a common figure than a rare one by virtue of the vast number of common minis made vs an uncommon or rare. Make no mistake – these molds are a VERY significant costs of good sold. Not all of that cost is incurred as a one time set up fee. A significant portion of that costs is incurred *every time* they make another mold of that same figure.
Generally speaking, the more complex the model - the more complex and expensive the mold. By restricting the number of these “extra” molds they have to make for a given set, they can create a more varied line of miniatures and average the costs of good sold over a larger # of SKUS sold.
You may point to a relatively uncomplicated ordinary mini being designated as a “rare” and cry “foul”. At the same time, you conveniently ignore that in the most recent set, 8 large uncommons were produced. These would normally be figures that would have been rares in the past. To address demands by RPG fans for larger numbers of these figures available for RPG play, they have increased the rares to 24 (and made some of them less exceptional) while creating more value in use to gamers via large uncommons (and made those more exceptional).
WotC does not price their costs of good sold like you do. They don’t sell these things individually and they don’t order or make them individually either. They must measure and pay their overall costs as a lump sum figure covering the entire set and then assign breakdowns of figures. This permits them to make limited numbers of molds for 24 of their figures, slightly more molds for the uncommons and a larger number of molds for the commons. But WotC’s attention is on overall costs of good sold on the entire line.
WotC retails these miniatures in a package of 8 for about $10 USD- 12USD.
Let’s use $10 a package as it’s easy to break down. There are 8 figures in a box. Your average cost per figure is $1.25.
Some of those figures are more expensive to produce than others. Some of those figures are being sold for less than they really cost to make on a per unit basis – by virtue of the fact that you have “overpaid” for others. The entire marketing scheme behind common/uncommon/rare figures permits a more varied model line, increases overall # of SKUs sold and thereby permits WotC to make a profit on what would otherwise – if sold at a “true” price per individual figure – be less profitable, more risky and – overall – less complete.
So: to put it bluntly, your analysis is fundamentally flawed. You assume it is some mystical “rare” designation being arbitrarily assigned which increases a figure’s value. They are rare because they are made in reduced numbers using less overall molds to decrease the overall costs of good sold for a line. This reduces the costs of setup, still makes the mini available (though in reduced numbers) and permits a more complete and varied expansion set to be brought to market - and yes – makes a collectible game more “collectible”.
Merric’s law of miniatures applies. Your premise is incorrect.
Some questions: why are their decisions asinine, in your estimation?
Why should WotC have stayed out of the miniatures business?
Why do you feel the execution of the D&D miniatures line is bad?
MIAsinine might've been too strong a word. When I first found out about the D&D minis (about a month prior to Harbringer's release, if I remember correctly), I thought, "Uh, random? That's silly. In all my years of collecting miniatures for gaming, knowing what I'm going to get was the whole point of buying what I bought!"
A few packs of minis later (at this point, Archfiends was out), I decided random wasn't so bad because I was getting models I'd never thought to use before (and, interestingly enough, still haven't).
However, now the random part is bothering me again. I'm sorry, but I simply have no desire for a wood woad or another dozen spell-stitched hobgoblin zombies.
Merric of MaxMinis.com said it best:
Merric's Law of Miniatures: Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, and a Large Range of Figures: Choose two.
In short, there is a pretty compelling economic reason for doing things the way that they did.
That said, it is generally pretty easy to get the miniatures you want on the secondary market at a reasonable price.
Well, maybe they shouldn't have stayed out of the miniatures games. Based on nothing other than knowledge that collectible anything catches on at least for a couple years here in the US, the D&D Miniatures seemt to be doing fine; and there are a number of really cool figures. However, there're a lot of long established miniatures companies out there (Games Workshop, despite whatever bad things so many people say about them, Reaper, Rackham, and many more), and they all make a whole lot of great figures perfectly suitable for D&D.
Sure. I have quite a few myself. However, they are not painted and ready to play out of the box. They are also a bit of a pain to store. I could never transport and would have extreme difficulty and expense storing the massive quantity of miniatures I have if the D&D minis were not so light and easy to pack up.
What would be really cool is some sort of licensing where these companies could make miniatures of the more guarded D&D monsters (copyrighted/trademarked creatures that otherwise can't be reproduced).
Reaper already did a few - check out their "Vulture Demon" for a good example.
MI
Remember the Minis are for the D&D Miniatures Skirmish Game and not for D&D.
Why would you say that? They are for both.
Because if they were game aids, any more than say pieces to a monoply game are, you would be able to buy them singly from the producer, and thus be able to only buy the figures you wanted.
Your view does not mesh well with economic reality. They need to make money, and they have a great strategy to do so. If they were to sell the minis individually, their sales would be a small fraction of what they are now.
They are designed for the miniatures game where it doesn't really matter what the figures are, or how many of the same one you have.
No, they are designed for both. I probably have the largest personal collection of these miniatures in the world (that is not an exaggeration), and I have never played the skirmish game even once. I have played a few pseudo-skirmish games with my kids, but that is it.
Now, the fact that some of the figures happen to represent creatures that a DM might want to use as game aids is pure conicidental
No, it really isn't. They specifically choose a number of "D&D popular" creatures to be a part of each set. You may notice that creatures which are popular for D&D play sell for substantially more on the secondary market. So do figures that are good for skirmish play. Minis that both "D&D popular" *and* are good for skirmish play go for even more.
MI
What they need to do is release the minis as singles with a different base color that is illegal for D&D miniature game play...
That really would not effect the price at all.
Well, the rairity would not matter, so the minis could be sold purely based on production cost + profit margin. No longer would a small miniature sell individually for more than a huge figure.
Size is not the only factor. You may notice that the quality of paint jobs are generally quite a bit higher on the rares. That said, I am not sure if the numbers would work out well. They would have to charge quite a bit for each mini in order for this to work, and the risk would be greater (unsold stock and the like).
Maybe sell them without the cards.
I doubt that would affect it much either
Once again the idea is keeping the minis sold as game aids from corrupting the Miniatures game.
That is still part of the set-up expense which has to be covered. The printing cost of the cards is probably insignificantly small.
I'd pay $3-5 for a large figure, and would probably buy 50 of the things from the different sets.
Since they have started up with uncommon large minis, that is possible to do. There are some good ones, too: trolls, ogres, dire bears, weretigers...
True, and I have picked up some commons and uncommons, but the real cool minis that I would get some real use out of...Blue Slaad, Displacer Beast, Carrion Crawler, Beholder,...I can put down quite a large list of the rare's here..but I'll save readers my pipe dreams...are all price inflated because of their value to the Miniatures game.
Those minis you mentioned are not particularly good for the skirmish game. They are expensive on the secondary market because they are popular D&D monsters (and are scarce).
But Hey, I'm not the customer they are looking for...
Don't be so certain. There are literally tons of good minis to be had for a reasonable price.
But why should my purchases be limited by the value a figure has in a game I have no intention of even using the minis in.
Once again, that is not the only, or even the primary factor at work. The *vast* majority of people who have purchased minis from me did so for roleplaying gameplay only.
For PC minis I don't think you can beat Reaper.
Agreed. Sandra Garrity is awesome. That said, I don't paint, and it is a pain to get someone both good and reliable to do so. That also does not factor in storage and transportation difficulties that I do not have with D&D minis.
Why do the large figures havs a 1.5 inch base instead of a 2 inch base?
Large minis have a 2" base.
My displacer beast and Dire ape have 1.5 inch bases...maybe I have flawed minis or they changed thiings receintly.
I have a substantial number of both, and they fit perfectly on a 2X2 space on a 1" grid Crystal Caste combat mat. I would check measurements again.
MI
We could really use a good large uncommon for a carrion crawler; perhaps underdark will have something wormy.
You could always fudge with a Grick (Common from Giants of Legend). It is green and has tentacles - all you need to do is set it on a bigger base (like a 2"x2" piece of 3x5 card).
And if you need an army of beholders I feel sorry for your players!
Indeed. Even *I* only have 6...
MI
I have a substantial number of both, and they fit perfectly on a 2X2 space on a 1" grid Crystal Caste combat mat. I would check measurements again.
I just ran TFoE using a Dire Ape. It did not have a 2" diameter base.
Some very interesting points have been made:
WotC has created a scheme of marketing that allows them to incur substantial set up costs for a given run of a set of 60 miniatures. They have done this by marketing their miniatures in such a way as to create incentive in the purchaser to buy the product in a volume greater than they otherwise would if sold individually.
Incentive? “Keep buying until and you might get what you want…but we guarantee you will get a lot of what you don’t want.” The beatings will continue until morale improves.
WotC’s costs of good sold is not the same for every miniature. Many miniatures are more complex to model, cast in a mold, paint and assemble than others.
Which is why I said I would be willing to pay production cost + profit margin for figures I wanted. Maybe they could spend the money they did on Wrackspawn and Wood Woads making more Beholder molds…
Let’s use $10 a package as it’s easy to break down. There are 8 figures in a box. Your average cost per figure is $1.25.
Which is a great price…until you have to buy a case (12 boxes) and very probably not get the 1 miniature you wanted. My local game store opened two cases of Deathknell figures and still didn’t find one Beholder. They did get 16 Wood Woads, 17 Dire Badgers, and 13 Killer Frogs. Greaaaat….
It is getting stuck with that which I do not want that really bothers me.Fiendish T-Rex? Give me a Behiir! I can buy any of a dozen plastic dinosaurs form the local $1 store
Some of those figures are more expensive to produce than others. Some of those figures are being sold for less than they really cost to make on a per unit basis – by virtue of the fact that you have “overpaid” for others. The entire marketing scheme behind common/uncommon/rare figures permits a more varied model line, increases overall # of SKUs sold and thereby permits WotC to make a profit on what would otherwise – if sold at a “true” price per individual figure – be less profitable, more risky and – overall – less complete.
Only if they continue to produce figures that no one wants. If they produced and sold figures like say Reaper does, then they would of course chose to individually market creatures which they thought were more marketable.
Merric’s law of miniatures applies.
Absolutely, and I’ll take a limited range of figures and Low cost over random packaging any day. Now D&D miniature set to date has had more than 20 figures that I have been interested in. And of those that I want, 80% are "rare". I say cut the Woad Woads, Killer Frogs (Who hasn’t considered picking up a package of plastic frogs at Walmart when they needed some) and Blues, and focus on the biggy core D&D monsters like Beholders Carrion Crawlers, Displacer Beasts, Slaads, Otyugh, Giants, Demons, Devils, Dragons, Mind Flayers, Chuul and the like. Heck, leave the PC classes, Humanoid races, and SRD Undead out. Those are dime a dozen anyway, and _ every_ other miniature producer makes them. Don’t drop junk on the consumer who is trying to purchase what they desire.
So give me a range of 20 quality figures that I can choose from Vs. 60 random quality and desireable figures that I have to play Lotto with.
Your view does not mesh well with economic reality. They need to make money, and they have a great strategy to do so. If they were to sell the minis individually, their sales would be a small fraction of what they are now.
And yet most other miniature companies do just that…weird. Maybe if they limited the miniatures they produced to ones that people actually wanted, Maybe taking a look through the pages of DUNGEON would give them an idea of creatures that actually get play.
No, it really isn't. They specifically choose a number of "D&D popular" creatures to be a part of each set. You may notice that creatures which are popular for D&D play sell for substantially more on the secondary market. So do figures that are good for skirmish play. Minis that both "D&D popular" *and* are good for skirmish play go for even more.
I have never seen a figure that was common or uncommon sell for more than a rare. The resell price is based purely on the rarity of the figure. I will agree that the height of the price, once it has madr the Higher than an Uncommon level is possibly influenced by the points, or the fact that some Gamers realize the futility of buying a case of figures and still not getting the one they want and then knuckling down and dropping $50 on a Displacer Beast.
Size is not the only factor. You may notice that the quality of paint jobs are generally quite a bit higher on the rares. That said, I am not sure if the numbers would work out well. They would have to charge quite a bit for each mini in order for this to work, and the risk would be greater (unsold stock and the like).
Hmmm. How to prevent unsold stock….Don’t make figures that no one wants.
For PC minis I don't think you can beat Reaper.
Agreed. Sandra Garrity is awesome. That said, I don't paint, and it is a pain to get someone both good and reliable to do so. That also does not factor in storage and transportation difficulties that I do not have with D&D minis.
I totally agree, Sandra Garrity is fantastic. As far as Miniature transport of metal figures, I have an old briefcase with egg crate foam in it. I put the figures in and close it and it works like a charm. As far as painting. I would rather have a quality (high detail) unpainted metal miniature than a poorly painted lo detail plastic one. That may just be me though. I also am a fairly good miniature painter when I have the time to do it, and have repainted most of the D&D miniature singles I have purchased.
As for substituting minis for creatures that I don’t have…What choice does any DM have…that is pretty much SOP. I’d practically kill for a Xorn Mini!
My guess is that WotC, despite what they say will eventually re-release most of the discontinued miniatures just like the people who marketed beanie babies did…”Ohh, we found an extra couple of boxes in the back of a warehouse in Tibet.” Or “The molds held up better than we expected so we will be making another production run”
Very interesting conversation though.
ASEO out
I have a substantial number of both, and they fit perfectly on a 2X2 space on a 1" grid Crystal Caste combat mat. I would check measurements again.I just ran TFoE using a Dire Ape. It did not have a 2" diameter base.
Hmm. I will check again.
MI
I have a substantial number of both, and they fit perfectly on a 2X2 space on a 1" grid Crystal Caste combat mat. I would check measurements again.I just ran TFoE using a Dire Ape. It did not have a 2" diameter base.Hmm. I will check again.
MI
Maybe I'm not crazy...
ASEO out
Interesting points brought by SW, MI and ASEO, but I will say again what burns me up is that the you can buy alot of mini sets and get the same stuff, I don't know how many Mordenkainens I pulled out of Giants of Legend, and I know I've bought over two cases of that particular set; I've received no dragons, no slaads, no rakashas, no Lord Soth, no fire giants.. With the Deathknell, same thing, no beholders, no ettin skirmishers, no spectres.. Aberrations, well over 2 cases; no warforged hero, no wyverns, no hook horrors, no bladebearer hobgoblins, no fiendish praying mantis... It is very frustrating when you look at what you might have to pay from various merchants to purchase many of these minis.
On top of that, I've gotten some blackscale lizardfolk with their tails missing from the Angelfire pack.
Yes, maybe WOTC is justified in the strategy of their mini lines, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
I have a substantial number of both, and they fit perfectly on a 2X2 space on a 1" grid Crystal Caste combat mat. I would check measurements again.I just ran TFoE using a Dire Ape. It did not have a 2" diameter base.Hmm. I will check again.
MI
Maybe I'm not crazy...
ASEO out
Just remeasured all my larges. Bases are 1.5 inch. Why?
ASEO out
Interesting points brought by SW, MI and ASEO, but I will say again what burns me up is that the you can buy alot of mini sets and get the same stuff, I don't know how many Mordenkainens I pulled out of Giants of Legend, and I know I've bought over two cases of that particular set; I've received no dragons, no slaads, no rakashas, no Lord Soth, no fire giants.. With the Deathknell, same thing, no beholders, no ettin skirmishers, no spectres.. Aberrations, well over 2 cases; no warforged hero, no wyverns, no hook horrors, no bladebearer hobgoblins, no fiendish praying mantis... It is very frustrating when you look at what you might have to pay from various merchants to purchase many of these minis.
On top of that, I've gotten some blackscale lizardfolk with their tails missing from the Angelfire pack.
Yes, maybe WOTC is justified in the strategy of their mini lines, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Exactly! I guess if you actually use the Mordenkain figure as a PC mini you will be ready to cast mirror image ::Sigh::
Every cloud has a silver lining...
and thousands of people get killed by lightning each year looking for it.
Having many many many multiples of the same monster figure is bad enough, but maybe you will be able to run an encounter wher the party faces 17 Wood Woads. But getting stuck with 12 Lida the halflings or 15 Gnome nose pickers...man that just blows. I'd be happier with themed packs even if the contents were random yet within the theme.
Orc (or any other humanoid race) Pack
Undead Pack (with large creatures, of which there are several undead) and a necromancer figure.
Gnoll/Flind Pack
Drow Pack
Iconic Hero Pack
Dragon Pack(with a mini of each size for a particular color dragon, Or just several random dragons in general)
Demon Pack
Devil Pack
The Paizo store gave this a try, but their 5 figure packs all contain lame figures that they obviously couldn't get rid of any other way.
I've heard the arguements from WotC...The individual packaging would be too much...To which I say sell figures that people want and they will buy them. Don't waste efforts on lame figures.
They have enough figures out now that they should do a vote of each set and have people rate each set of figures from 1-60. I bet they would get an idea of which figures were lame pretty quick. Ditch those and mass produce the top 10 figures in each set for sale as singles.
I guess this is my new Failed Wil Save...
ASEO out
Some very interesting points have been made:
WotC has created a scheme of marketing that allows them to incur substantial set up costs for a given run of a set of 60 miniatures. They have done this by marketing their miniatures in such a way as to create incentive in the purchaser to buy the product in a volume greater than they otherwise would if sold individually.
Incentive? “Keep buying until and you might get what you want…but we guarantee you will get a lot of what you don’t want.” The beatings will continue until morale improves.
This marketing strategy has proven quote successful. You cannot argue with results. If someone only wants a specific mini, there are tons of sources for them. The secondary market provides the individual sales, and WotC saves on costs.
WotC’s costs of good sold is not the same for every miniature. Many miniatures are more complex to model, cast in a mold, paint and assemble than others.
Which is why I said I would be willing to pay production cost + profit margin for figures I wanted.
Production cost is not the only extra expense. How about the increased market research costs? You also must know that with an increase in price comes a decrease in sales. *You* and others like you may be willing to pay the price, but that might not tip the scales.
Let’s use $10 a package as it’s easy to break down. There are 8 figures in a box. Your average cost per figure is $1.25.
Which is a great price…until you have to buy a case (12 boxes) and very probably not get the 1 miniature you wanted.
To which I say: why didn't you just buy the individual mini you wanted in the first place?
My local game store opened two cases of Deathknell figures and still didn’t find one Beholder. They did get 16 Wood Woads, 17 Dire Badgers, and 13 Killer Frogs. Greaaaat….
What 24 rares *did* they get, though? What other desired minis were among the 192 acquired?
It is getting stuck with that which I do not want that really bothers me.
If that is the case, why don't you just buy the individual minis?
Fiendish T-Rex? Give me a Behir!
Why don't you just *buy one*? Doing a cursory seach, I find that the average online store price is around $23.00 (which is really not that bad for a well-painted figure of that size). However, looking at recently completed eBay auctions, I see one that sold for only $6.50, with the highest priced recent sale being only $14.99. That is plenty cheap for someone who wants a Behir.
I am going to break this message up, since these are getting rather long.
MI
I’ll take a limited range of figures and Low cost over random packaging any day.
Sure. Others would rather keep the random packaging and continue to get a line of 180+ miniatures per year. I am certainly one of those.
No D&D miniature set to date has had more than 20 figures that I have been interested in.
My experience obviously differs. Generally, I find over half of each set to be regularly useful in gaming (the Evil half, for the most part). As for the rest, I enjoy a wide array of PC and NPC minis.
And of those that I want, 80% are "rare". I say cut the Woad Woads, Killer Frogs, and Blues, and focus on the biggy core D&D monsters like Beholders Carrion Crawlers, Displacer Beasts, Slaads, Otyugh, Giants, Demons, Devils, Dragons, Mind Flayers, Chuul and the like.
You see, they *are* focussing on those. They only include a few of the really popular ones in each set, because eventually, they are going to run out of popular monsters. Trickling them out is a smart marketing decision. How many people bought Deathknell mainly because they wanted a Beholder?
Heck, leave the PC classes, Humanoid races, and SRD Undead out.
Why?
Those are dime a dozen anyway, and _ every_ other miniature producer makes them.
Fully painted and ready to play straight out of the box? Who produces such minis?
Don’t drop junk on the consumer who is trying to purchase what they desire.
One man's trash is another's treasure. I have sold large volumes of individual D&D minis since the first set came out, and you would be surprised what individuals want for their games. The wide selection supports many more gaming preferences than a higher-priced narrow selection would.
MI
OK... I'm going to pipe in with some unfounded comments that may very well be wrong!
I don't believe the D&D Miniatures booster packs/starter sets are truly random. One, you never get duplicates in the same box. Two, they have to make sure they give property quantities based on rarity. It's still random enough, but they don't just shove their hands in bins of models (they might, but there's a bin per figure, I'd guess) and let it be. I'm imagining a warehouse packed with shelves. On these shelves are tubs/drawers/boxs/bins of D&D Minis, hopefully labeled. I think there probably is inventory involved - A worker goes and decides to grab a Beholder, he probably marks that downs somewhere. The other way to do inventory on something like D&D Minis is to just look, of course. "Oh, that tub of Blue Slaad is empty."
They also, obviously, know what they're putting into any given box as the matching cards have to be included.
The comment about the boxes being $10/box? What is that based on? I pay $11.69 after my 10% discount at my local gaming store. ($12.99 suggested list price.)
ASEO has made a number of comments in regards to buying out-of-box D&D Miniatures and how, in his opinion, most likely based on his income, they cost too much (which is how I feel, save for the ones that cost less than $1, but those I usually don't want). This has nothing to do with the production costs - WotC does not determine those prices, aside from maybe indirectly through the designations of rare, uncommon, common and of course, by how useful they really can be in either the D&D RPG, or the skirmish game.
OK, time to curb my unfounded comments that I'm sure to be called on. "You're misguided. You're view is warped. Wah wah." (Or is that Waa waa?)
Oh, and MI, I'm aware of things like Reaper's Vulture Deamon. I think I just want more to chose from, but a half dozen sculptors can only work so fast. Naturally, I could stop being lazy and teach myself to sculpt well enough to convert models to such an extent as to make what I want... Nah.
Your view does not mesh well with economic reality. They need to make money, and they have a great strategy to do so. If they were to sell the minis individually, their sales would be a small fraction of what they are now.
And yet most other miniature companies do just that…weird.
They produce ready-to-play, painted minis for $1.25 each on average?
Maybe if they limited the miniatures they produced to ones that people actually wanted,
The huge success of D&D minis indicates that people actually *do* want what they are selling.
I have never seen a figure that was common or uncommon sell for more than a rare.
I have. Many times.
The resell price is based purely on the rarity of the figure.
Not remotely. For example, Drow figures are almost *always* high ticket items, no matter what the rarity. Drow Archers regularly sell for $8.00 or so, and there are some rares I have never gotten that much for. I have seen Harbinger Wolves (a common) go for as high as $8.00, and had a Sahuagin Ranger (uncommon) go for $27.00.
Hmmm. How to prevent unsold stock….Don’t make figures that no one wants.
Even then, you will have some problems moving stock. As it stands now, WotC has created *huge* demand. Stores buy extra so they can sell it later for a higher price. People buy massive numbers of cases to get the selection they want, then sell the remainder on eBay.
I totally agree, Sandra Garrity is fantastic. As far as Miniature transport of metal figures, I have an old briefcase with egg crate foam in it. I put the figures in and close it and it works like a charm.
I have a similar setup for my metal minis. However, I have over 3700 plastic D&D minis, and I can store them in small ziploc bags by type (e.g. Ogre Ravagers), then in clear plastic shoeboxes by group (e.g. Ogres & Trolls), then 13 shoeboxes in a toybox-like bin. My collection takes up 5 such bins so far, and all my minis are in great condition. I would need a bobtail moving truck to keep that many metal minis around with adequate protection. Granted, I am an extreme example, and it is a pain to transport the whole shebang, but I like having a mini for every occasion.
As far as painting. I would rather have a quality (high detail) unpainted metal miniature than a poorly painted lo detail plastic one.
We differ on this. I like having color on the table. Then again, I do not have to make that choice, because there are plenty of great, highly detailed plastic minis in my collection.
That may just be me though. I also am a fairly good miniature painter when I have the time to do it, and have repainted most of the D&D miniature singles I have purchased.
I figured you were a painter ;-)
As for substituting minis for creatures that I don’t have…What choice does any DM have…that is pretty much SOP. I’d practically kill for a Xorn Mini!
I hear one is coming. Hopefully Underdark will have one.
My guess is that WotC, despite what they say will eventually re-release most of the discontinued miniatures just like the people who marketed beanie babies did…
That does not appear to be their plan. They have issued *resculpts*, though (Minotaur, Zombie, Gnoll, and Drow Fighter so far).
Very interesting conversation though.
Agreed.
MI
On top of that, I've gotten some blackscale lizardfolk with their tails missing from the Angelfire pack.
Call WotC customer service. They will replace defective minis, and give you a little extra for your trouble.
MI
I don't begrudge them something that makes money for them, but I do with we would see an "all orcs" or "all goblins" or whatever for the most common creatures in the game. The closest we have there is the kobolds and skelatons you get with the basic set.
Wait . . . looking at my collection maybe I should revise my comment. Orcs and kobolds I got . . . but not many halflings, dwarves, or elves.
Hmmm...maybe my main beef is with the figures that they choose to make commons and the ones they make rares...I did find a great place to buy singles without the crazy shipping charges you sometimes see on ebay. I purchased 27 common and uncommon figures from www.coolstuffinc.com and only paid $.99 shipping.
As for the behiir. I bought Reapers Cavern Crawler which is a great figure. I also have the Vulture Demon, Marilith, beetle swarms, several of their gnolls, and almost all my PC figures are from their collection.
And as is obvious, WotC paint jobs don't thrill me, although the one on the Bullette is quite good. My Flind Sergeant looks like it was painted with pudding.
Still, If I am going to spent over $10 on a figure. it will be well sculpted and metal...but then again I paint pretty well.
Here is my list of have (ones with an X for each one I have and no Xs on the ones that I would be interested in getting at what I consider a fair price based on their size.)
Harbinger
Azer Raider
Barghest
Bearded Devil
Displacer Beast X
Gnoll
Kobold Warrior XX (from Game day)
Large Fire elemental
Large Earth elemental
Lizardfolk
Kuo-Toa
Troll
Umberhulk
Wolf Skeleton X
Dragon Eye
Abyssal Maw X
Bugbear X
Copper Samurai X
Brass Dragon
Bright Naga
Dire Ape X
Drech X
Goblin skirmisher X
Grimlock XXX (purchased for Sleeper in Dreams but will come in handy in AoW)
Harpy X
Human Crossbowman X
Kobold Skirmisher XX (from Game day)
Hobgoblin warrior X
Kerwyn human rogue X
Meduim Air elemental X
Maduim water elemental
Red Samurai X
Salamander
Small white dragon
Troglodyte XXX (from DMing Game Day)
Medium black dragon
Large red dragon
Carrion crawler
Orc Druid
Blue Wyrmling
Arch Fiends
Bone Devil
Dalelands Militia X
Cursed Spirit X
Githzerai. X
Githyanki Fighter
Gnoll Archer X
Mediun Fire elemental X
Ochre Jelly
Vrock
Yaun-Ti Pureblood
Giants of Legend
Huge Behir
Blue Slaad
Bugbear Footpad
Bronze Wyrmling X
Bulette X
Displacer Serpent X
Drider Sorcerer
Eberk Adventurer X (from Game Day)
Lida Adventurer X (from Game Day)
Aramil Adventurer X (from Game Day)
Ettercap X
Fire Giant
Frost Giant
Grick X
Gnoll sergeant
Huge Fomorian X
Githyanki renegade
Glabrezu
Hobgoblin sergeant
Huge gold Dragon
Huge red dragon
Lemure XX
King Snurre Fire Giant
Lizardfolk rogue
Otyugh
Red Wyrmling
Regdar adventurer X (from Game Day)
Treant X
War forged fighter X
Huge Night Walker X
Death Knell
Beholder
Dire badger XX
Dire Bear X
Ettin Skirmisher
Giant Frog XX
Flind captain X
Forest Troll
Gold Dragon
Grell X
Griffon
Kenku sneak XXXXX (purchased for AoW)
Large blue dragon
Warforged Wizard X
Zombie White Dragon
Dragonblade Ninja X
Aberrations
Black bear X
Choaker XX
Chuul
Destrachan XX
Dire weasel XX
Etherial Flicher X
Green Dragon
Gnoll Skeleton X
Hook Horror
Longtooth barbarian X
Mountain Orc XXXXX (extras from Game day)
Mad Slasher XX (purchased for AoW)
Myconid Guard XX
Iron Cobra X
Kobold Champion X
Kobold Sorcerer X
Sahuagin Ranger X
Wyvren
Warforged Hero
Gnoll
Yaun-Ti Halfblood X
Yaun-Ti Abomination
Angel Fire
04 – U – Dwarf Wizard X
08 – R – Stone Giant
17 – R – Djinni
20 – U – Large Air Elemental X
21 – R – Large Copper Dragon
26 – R – Thri-Kreen Barbarian
32 – U – Blackscale Lizardfolk X
33 – R – Red Slaad
35 – R – Barbed Devil
36 – R – Chain Devil
37 – U – Chraal X
39 – R – Efreeti
40 – U – Flamebrother Salamander X
41 – R – Ghostly Consort
42 – C – Hobgoblin Impaler
43 – U – Imp X
44 – C – Kobold Soldier X
46 – R – Ogre Mage
49 – U – Vargouille X
52 – U – Bugbear Champion of Erythnul
54 – U – Fiendish Dire Wolverine X
55 – R – Hezrou
56 – U – Magmin XX
58 – R – Orc Wolf Shaman
59 – U – Troll Slasher X
Were Boar X
I just wish the ones I don't have were not out of the price range I am willing to pay for plastic miniatures...
I think I was in Iraq when the first couple sets came out, and by the time I got back a lot of the figures had disapeared from coolstuff, and I'm not willing to pay more for shipping than the figure on ebay for the older commons and uncommons...I'll find them in a garage sale sooner or later.
Oh well
ASEO out
ASEO, you should try maxminis.com. There you can create your own have/want list and find a good number of long-time buyers, sellers and traders.
I wonder whether the price of grimlocks and kenku's have risen in the past month compaired with other commons of their set?
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I don't begrudge them something that makes money for them, but I do with we would see an "all orcs" or "all goblins" or whatever for the most common creatures in the game. The closest we have there is the kobolds and skelatons you get with the basic set.
Wait . . . looking at my collection maybe I should revise my comment. Orcs and kobolds I got . . . but not many halflings, dwarves, or elves.
Not enough Dwarves? That's the first time I ever heard that. The general criticism is that there are far far too many.
If you don't have "enough" dwarves or elves - you haven't been buying D&D minis very often.
The alignment factions of the mini game have dictated a nigh RIDICULOUS number of dwarves and elves. They are anything but in short supply.
As for kenkus and grimlocks in short supply - I did buy a number of Age of Worms minis at my local shop the other day and cleaned em out of kenkus :)
I wonder whether the price of grimlocks and kenku's have risen in the past month compaired with other commons of their set?
If anyone is interested, I have tons of both still in the bag, and I am willing to sell them for $1.25 each plus minimal S&H (the cost of the postage plus the box, and about $1.00 fudge factor).
invictusebay@yahoo.com
MI
Maybe all creatures from the Monster Mannual should be Commons, MMII and Fiend Folio Uncommons, and MMIII and other sources Rares. There should be some correspondance to the frequency at which creatures appear in D&D products to their rarity as figures.
ASEO
Maybe all creatures from the Monster Mannual should be Commons, MMII and Fiend Folio Uncommons, and MMIII and other sources Rares. There should be some correspondance to the frequency at which creatures appear in D&D products to their rarity as figures.
Part of the issue is the complexity of the sculpt and the difficulty in painting it on a mass-production basis. For example, it has been stated that all mounted figures are going to be rare, because of the paint complexity. Judging from the Mounted Paladin figure, I believe it.
By the way, the next set is going to include a spider swarm. Too bad for me it will be far too late to sub it in for those acid beatles.
MI
By the way, the next set is going to include a spider swarm. Too bad for me it will be far too late to sub it in for those acid beatles.
MI
Yeah, I saw that...Probably will be a rare...(having to paint each spider and all) The drow on the lizard looked lame, but maybe it will become common for Drow to ride lizards and those Warhammer Cold One Riders will become useful in D&D.
I would think a Xorn would be a pretty easy miniature to mold and paint..Hopefully the Underdark set will have one and it won't be a rare.
ASEO out
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If you don't have "enough" dwarves or elves - you haven't been buying D&D minis very often.
The alignment factions of the mini game have dictated a nigh RIDICULOUS number of dwarves and elves. They are anything but in short supply.
I currently don't have any D&D minis at all - I simply don't have the disposable income to buy more than a few. I'm trying to find a decent (male) elf wizard mini, but the only suitable ones I can see (from searching on maxminis.com) are the Arcane Archer and Elf Pyromancer. These are both rare, and with the shipping to the UK that people on eBay are asking, it isn't economically viable to buy either of these.
I'm awful at painting, so a pre-painted miniature would be ideal for me. Given that wizard is the favoured class for elves, this seems a strange situation; am I missing something here?
paz
Aramil is an uncommon from Giants of Legend that makes a nice elven wizard PC fig.
The spider swarm is confirmed as a large uncommon for Underdark. The Xorn will appear in the next set (War Drums).
Yeah, I saw that...Probably will be a rare...(having to paint each spider and all)
ASEO out
Heh, you really believe they paint each spider individually? ; )
You're a miniature painter, surely you understand the beauty of shortcuts. I know I do! When I'm painting 50 Night Goblin Spearmen for WHFB, I don't want to spend too much time on each figure. If I were to paint a spider swarm model for the D&D minis, I'd be doing a lot of drybrushing to avoid detailing each individual spider.
I currently don't have any D&D minis at all - I simply don't have the disposable income to buy more than a few. I'm trying to find a decent (male) elf wizard mini,
paz
Try reaper minis for their awesome selection of PCs. I'm sure you can paint at least as well as the D&D PC minis are painted...lools like they use q-tips and nail polish on them ::sigh:: The detail on the Reaper minis are well defined ant thus allow the paint to flow easily on them and yet stay in the areas where you want it. I use ceramic paints from a loca craft store. runs like $.69 a bottle and is water based so it mixes well and if I really screw it up I can scrub it off with an old toothbrush. When it is the way I want it, I hit it with clear spray paint.
ASEO out
I currently don't have any D&D minis at all - I simply don't have the disposable income to buy more than a few. I'm trying to find a decent (male) elf wizard mini,
paz
Try reaper minis for their awesome selection of PCs. I'm sure you can paint at least as well as the D&D PC minis are painted...lools like they use q-tips and nail polish on them ::sigh:: The detail on the Reaper minis are well defined ant thus allow the paint to flow easily on them and yet stay in the areas where you want it. I use ceramic paints from a loca craft store. runs like $.69 a bottle and is water based so it mixes well and if I really screw it up I can scrub it off with an old toothbrush. When it is the way I want it, I hit it with clear spray paint.
ASEO out
Hey ASEO, how many colors did you get with those paints? Did you have to mix some together to get the right colors?
Hey ASEO, how many colors did you get with those paints? Did you have to mix some together to get the right colors?
Not sure if I'm being mocked here, if so I probably deserve it.
Hobby Lobby has a wide variety of colors, but when I started off I got Red, Blue, Yellow, Black, White, silver and Gold. From there I could make a wide variety of other colors...As I went on painting I went ahead and bought several other colors. For flesh, I do use Testors Tan...a bit of a pain since it is oil based, but it is the best covering fleshtone I've found so far, and since it is oil based, and I do the skin first, it is easy to wipe off the water based colors is I slip when painting near the skin areas. Just don't go to heavily with the testers becaise you will lose some detail.
ASEO out
sorry to ressurect an old thread, but looking at reaper's upcoming selection of miniatures, one that is slated to be released in december looks like it was almost custom made for all the AoW DM's out in the world.
http://www.reapermini.com/gallery/album14/3009_G
a giant worm, with a mouth full of lots of teeth...
Did anyone in this thread ever get around to actually answering the original question?
I will put in my two cents on that thought (skipping over the entire - does WotC properly manufacture/market their miniatures line issue).
I think a spawn of kyuss zombie (or two or three) would be nice for full effect of zombies covered in worms. I think the urgastastha (that giant worm who regurgitates undead, whatever it's called) from Champions Belt would be cool. Though others have suggested acceptable substitutions, a proper wind warrior would also be helpful. The Ebon Aspect would be good since I read several posts requesting even a plausible substitution without much success. And then, of course, there's the humongous green worms shown on the original AoW AP Dungeon cover which I can only assume will spring forth near the conclusion of the adventure path.
I realize that most of these miniatures would be over-sized and therefore expensive (you could probably make a lurking strangler with very little plastic, but costs for details would then creep in), but I figure the market for these miniatures would be a relatively small but devoted group, the majority of which are probably willing to pay above-average prices for specific "special edition" AoW miniatures that perfectly match the adventure.
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I have been away from d&d for quite some time and I am totally enjoying the jump to 3.5 edition. I like how combat is based around miniatures and the battle grid. I just wish that WotC would have made a specific line of minis for all of us that just play rpg style and aren't interested in the "collectible" random miniatures skirmish game. It almost looks like a scenario where WotC purposely switched to the miniatures combat system just to promote and sell more of their collectable products. Collectable games like Magic, is what WotC excels at and it makes sense that they would want to add that aspect to the original d&d game. My only problem with this is that it seems to go against the "by the players, for the players" attitude of d&d that attracted me to the game in the first place. Dungeon magazine and Paizo seem to have this type of mentality, and that is a major reason I have become so happy with the game again. Of course I will buy the pewter minis when possible and have my players paint them(I am terrible at painting) and you know I have spent a few hundred dollars on the skirmish minis hoping to use some in my brand new AoW campaign. It would just be nice to see some rpg specific minis even if they needed to cost a little more per box to ensure a profit. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that these rpg minis could be different in a way that it would be obvious they weren't for the skirmish game. I hope to use as many minis as I can in the AoW campaign and I am so happy to be a serious d&d enthusiast again! Praises to dungeon and paizo for bringing me back in!!
I think a spawn of kyuss zombie (or two or three) would be nice for full effect of zombies covered in worms.
1) for a giant green worm that fits the adventure path, look at the link i posted just above. metal mini, 25mm scale, due out on december from reaper mini.
2) hows this one, due out in january from reaper, for a spawn of kyuss?
http://www.reapermini.com/gallery/album14/3023_G
...
I think reaper is paying attention over here, for some odd reason ;-)
I think a spawn of kyuss zombie (or two or three) would be nice for full effect of zombies covered in worms.
Mega Minis is making Kyuss Spawn for Paizo. Looks great.
...a proper wind warrior would also be helpful.
Cynwall construct warriors made by Rackham looks perfect for the part
The Ebon Aspect would be good...
Greater Daemon of Slaanesh from Games Workshop look good with very little editing but the cost is steep. Ebay you can usually find it better. Another is the Manganaw Gnoll Lord from Reaper
Of course if Reaper keeps up we may have better matches. And also if Paizo keeps getting other companies to make exclusives than we may have more.
I think a spawn of kyuss zombie (or two or three) would be nice for full effect of zombies covered in worms.Mega Minis is making Kyuss Spawn for Paizo. Looks great.
...a proper wind warrior would also be helpful.Cynwall construct warriors made by Rackham looks perfect for the part
The Ebon Aspect would be good...Greater Daemon of Slaanesh from Games Workshop look good with very little editing but the cost is steep. Ebay you can usually find it better. Another is the Manganaw Gnoll Lord from Reaper
Of course if Reaper keeps up we may have better matches. And also if Paizo keeps getting other companies to make exclusives than we may have more.
can you throw out some links here, preferably to graphics? i'd love to see the stuff you are talking about!
Spawn of Kyuss
http://paizo.com/store/games/miniatures/miniaturesForRoleplaying/megaMiniat ures/paizoDotComExclusives
Wind Warriors
http://www.rackham-store.com/index_us.htm
Ebon Aspect
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&c ode=303073&orignav=301030&ParentID=214235&GameNav=13
I've also compiled a list for the first three magazines but only posted the first due to the rampant off subject talking that was going on in this thread. If it would help anyone with their games I’ll post more.
Spawn of Kyuss
http://paizo.com/store/games/miniatures/miniaturesForRoleplaying/megaMiniat ures/paizoDotComExclusivesWind Warriors
http://www.rackham-store.com/index_us.htmEbon Aspect
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&c ode=303073&orignav=301030&ParentID=214235&GameNav=13I've also compiled a list for the first three magazines but only posted the first due to the rampant off subject talking that was going on in this thread. If it would help anyone with their games I’ll post more.
i sure as heck wouldn't mind =) seeing some more neet minis that you find. though i'm not a big fan of the spawn of kyuss that you've pointed out - the reaper mini is a bit more my style. the wind warriors from rackham, though.. those are just awesome!
my only issue with rackham is getting the miniatures - i don't have an actual credit card, and i live in the US. /sigh... ebay, here i come!
Spawn of Kyuss
http://paizo.com/store/games/miniatures/miniaturesForRoleplaying/megaMiniat ures/paizoDotComExclusivesWind Warriors
http://www.rackham-store.com/index_us.htmEbon Aspect
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&c ode=303073&orignav=301030&ParentID=214235&GameNav=13I've also compiled a list for the first three magazines but only posted the first due to the rampant off subject talking that was going on in this thread. If it would help anyone with their games I’ll post more.
I'd definitely be interested. How'd you find these in the first place?
Thanks!
I forgot to mention that my game is in Forgotten Realms so a few may be different. Kind of like the ebon aspect.
I have an extensive library of miniatures both on my computer and in my cabinet. I look for any new ones on a regular basis.
The second adventure I’ll post tomorrow evening.
These are the miniatures we are using with corresponding companies for the Three Faces of Evil Campaign
ALLIP; Spirit Pal Ratha
CHOKER; Choker 47/60 U (harbinger WOC)
CULT FANATIC; 14158: Mercenary Spearmen
DIRE BOAR; Sprue: Boar Body (Games Workshop)
Sprue: Boar Head (Games Workshop)
DIRE WEASEL; Fiendish Dire Weasel (Aberration WOC)
FEMALE HUMAN CLERIC; 2348: Krista War Maiden
GRIMLOCK; Grimlock 42/60 C (Dragoneye WOC)
HALF-ORC CLERIC FIGHTER; 02431: Gragg Elfslayer, Orc King
HUMAN MALE ACOLYTE; 02621: Laurana, Sorceress
02368: The Raven
HUMAN MALE WIZARD; 2914: Blue Orchid Assassin
SUMMONED MONSTERS; 2466: Carnivorous Ape
014041a: Baby Worm
HUMAN SKELETONS; Grave Guard (Games Workshop)
KENKU; Kapak Draconian 34/60 U (Dragoneye WOC)
Kenku Sneak 56/60 C (Deathknell WOC)
KRENSHAR; 02710: Goblin Wolf (2)
MALE HUMAN CLERIC; 2922: Henrik
TIEFLING FIGHTER; 2218: Abraxus Dire-Head Herald
2434: T'quan, Skoli
2443: S'kara, Fem Skoli
TROGLODYTE ZOMBIE; Troglodyte Zombie 56/80 U (Harbinger WOC)
EBON ASPECT; Greater Daemon of Slaanesh (Games Workshop)
The "2704: Manganaw, Lord of the Gnolls" also can work with some customizing for a good ebon aspect and it will give you flails to give to the Half-Orc cleric and the Female human Cleric.
The Dire boar is from a Boar Boyz regiment but you can order the pieces from the web page for just the boar body. Costs about Five dollars.
I suddenly remembered a question that bugged me when I first read the adventure. What minis are you guys using for the Ebon Aspect in 3FOE, Dungeon #125?
Aspect of Bane. Aspect of Nerul will work too.
Ninjack (Subscriber), Yesterday, 05:29 PM Reply
Does anyone have a suggestion for a mini that would work well for a ulgurstasta?
I want to have a mini to spring on my players when it comes time for the Champion's Belt. Plus, according to the Overload they should show up in some of the later adventures...
Clay? I once used that for an abolith.
I want to say a beany baby catapillar.
If it was longer I would use a plastic snake.