On a lighter note, I like to consider myself educated. I can spell words with one syllable, and I know an incomplete sentence when I see one. That said, I’ve run more than my fair share of official Dungeon adventures, and have more than once been derailed by text that I am supposed to read aloud to players that usually describes the scene. I don’t have a Dungeon handy for examples, but in virtually every adventure there is at least one word like “elucidate” or something to that ilk that I have never seen before, and there I am stammering to even say it correctly.
Why don’t I just replace the word with one that is familiar? Because I have NO Idea what it means!
Do I not read enough Tolkien or something? What Gives?!
Anyways, it’s a good problem to have I suppose, and I would never ask Dungeon to reword the adventures. Maybe I should quit being lazy and crack open a dictionary.
On a lighter note, I like to consider myself educated. I can spell words with one syllable, and I know an incomplete sentence when I see one. That said, I’ve run more than my fair share of official Dungeon adventures, and have more than once been derailed by text that I am supposed to read aloud to players that usually describes the scene. I don’t have a Dungeon handy for examples, but in virtually every adventure there is at least one word like “elucidate” or something to that ilk that I have never seen before, and there I am stammering to even say it correctly.
Why don’t I just replace the word with one that is familiar? Because I have NO Idea what it means!
Do I not read enough Tolkien or something? What Gives?!
Anyways, it’s a good problem to have I suppose, and I would never ask Dungeon to reword the adventures. Maybe I should quit being lazy and crack open a dictionary.
I know what you mean but you have an interesting choice of an example word. :)
--Ray.e·lu·ci·date
v. e·lu·ci·dat·ed, e·lu·ci·dat·ing, e·lu·ci·dates
v. tr.
To make clear or plain, especially by explanation; clarify.
When I was younger (about twenty-years ago) and playing D&D, I found that I had to constantly look to a dictionary to understand some terms/words. While it can be disconcerting to have to read aloud a word you don't understand, I think it is great to be challenged on any level by something as "simple" as a game. Think of how silly most basketball players look as they try to learn how to dribble the ball between their legs or around their back. I don't look at it as a bad thing--it's the staying in the dark that is troubling.
When I come across a word I don't know in Dungeon or Dragon Magazine, I am delighted. AD&D 2nd Edition INFURIATED me with its simple words, simple punctuation and simple sentences. It's like the PHB thought I was a 10-year-old "C" student who missed breakfast and was kinda thinking about how great a bowl of Froot Loops would taste right about now.
Of course, I wouldn't want to see a plethora of unfamiliar words.
(BTW, "plethora" means "more than can be eaten by a pleth in one sitting," or something like that.)
Anyhow, bring-on the BIG words, because the alternative is too scary to contimpla...contumpl....kontempl.............
...to scary to have thoughts toward.
:)
Tony M
That is, hands down, the best definition of "plethora" I've ever heard.
I can't remember ever seeing a word in Dungeon/Dragon that I didn't recognize or couldn't pronounce. Barring words like "Erythnul" or "Corellon Larethian" (heck, I can't even spell the latter half the time).
-Amber S.
Why don’t I just replace the word with one that is familiar? Because I have NO Idea what it means!
Do I not read enough Tolkien or something? What Gives?!
Anyways, it’s a good problem to have I suppose, and I would never ask Dungeon to reword the adventures. Maybe I should quit being lazy and crack open a dictionary.
I am an English Major, but I fully agree with you. I don't think most DM would like to read "elucidate" to their players. Even if I use a deep vocabulary while writing, I don't speak that way, and I won't use such words with my players.
For this reason, I try to keep my read-aloud text as useful as possible. I really like "The Styes," but I think the read-aloud text contains too much description. While I want that description somewhere, I don't like seeing it in the read-aloud text, because I feel it's not something I would read verbatim.
I have a nifty dictionary program on my PC (Miriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary) that gets used very frequently during the course of many of my games. I love coming across new words in Dungeon and Dragon or anything I'm reading and love to use them (without sounding like an idiot) whenever possible. Kind of a writer thing, too.
The PC software program gets used when I end up trying to describe what the heck I just said or when someone challenges pronunciation or definition. It's kind of a game within a game! Plus, as juvenile as it sounds, it's fun to hear the computer cuss, too!
We assume that most DMs paraphrase the material in the "read aloud" text.
--Erik
This is interesting. When I DM, I read, verbatim, the flavor text and then let the PCs have at it aftward. I wonder how many DMs paraphrase and how many do not? Hmmmmmmmmmmm......
--Ray.
One of the things I've learned about writing is that you should cater to your audience. A skilled writer will use language that the target audience can easily understand, as the entire purpose of writing is to communicate. Unskilled, amatuer writers often make the mistake of using 'big' words in order to make themselves appear more skilled than they are. Often this is a subconscious thing, but regardless, a skilled writer is one who is aware of this fact and alters their writing accordingly.
The thing about D&D, however, is that we were given a legacy of bad writing by the originators of the hobby. Gygax, for instance, is notorious for using language that requires one to have a full-size dictionary on hand just to understand basic sentences. Gygax is also notorious for having an ego the size of Everest and so never capitulated to his audience and rather forced everyone to get up to his comprehension standard.
Some people justify this as a good thing as it forced them to expand their vocabulary, however the fact remains that he, and others who use complex language, are failing in their task; to communicate effectively.
I never, ever read box text aloud. Never. Read Aloud text is death to atmosphere, IMO. Glad to see the inner circle of Dungeon agree :-)
I don’t have a Dungeon handy for examples, but in virtually every adventure there is at least one word like “elucidate” or something to that ilk that I have never seen before, and there I am stammering to even say it correctly.
Why don’t I just replace the word with one that is familiar? Because I have NO Idea what it means!
Just read the word authoratatively as if you know very well what it means, and hopefully the players won't ask. That's what I do. ;)
We assume that most DMs paraphrase the material in the "read aloud" text.
--Erik
This is interesting. When I DM, I read, verbatim, the flavor text and then let the PCs have at it aftward. I wonder how many DMs paraphrase and how many do not? Hmmmmmmmmmmm......
--Ray.
I'm old school - I learned to DM back before they had flavour text. Personally I would be happier if they dispenced with flavour text boxs altogether - but thats not going to happen. Basically I feel its my job to know what sort of things the PCs are going to be seeing. In Dungeons or other suitable environments I photocopy the maps and write on them etc. in order to help jog my memory about what this encounter was about.
So I don't even paraphrase instead I put what the players see into my own words. If I can't do that then its a sure sign that I did not prepare enough for this adventure (or I need more sleep).
I guess I have two things I don't like about the boxed flavour text. One is that its done in some one elses style - and its not consistent from module to module. Hence if one is reading the text verbatum then there are these different stylistic elements creeping into the game.
The other complaint is that I have to read these boxed texts much of the time just to find out whats in the room. This can some times mean trying to figure out what is just stylistic prose on the part of the adventure writer and what is actually relivent.
Actually that brings me to a third issue - conversions are more difficult. I run a home brewed campaign world so everything has to be adjusted. Having to read the boxed text and convert its prose laiden material is more difficult then the straight forward text that is for the DM.
All that said these issues are actually much less problematic then they have been in the past. The Ravonloft setting kicked off this fad to have obscenely heavy flavour text - and for a while there Dungeon seemed to decide to save some space by not repeating information again in the DMs description below the flavour text. So one had to wade through this prose ridden gothic tinged flavour text to work out that the room had two small beds and an open and empty chest in it with no windows and no other exits.
I'm old school - I learned to DM back before they had flavour text. Personally I would be happier if they dispenced with flavour text boxs altogether - but thats not going to happen. Basically I feel its my job to know what sort of things the PCs are going to be seeing. In Dungeons or other suitable environments I photocopy the maps and write on them etc. in order to help jog my memory about what this encounter was about.
You've been a DM for an awfully long time then, since even the B modules from the early 80s had boxed flavor text.
I usually do read the text verbatim unless there is good cause not to. I might paraphrase, or hold back the description if they immediately encountered something. Typically though, I expect that writers may be trying to provide some of that feel, and I don't get uncomfortable with multi-syllabic vocabulary.
On the other hand, occassionally the boxed text is just awful, and best paraphrased.... haven't had that problem in Dungeon in a long time though.
- Ashavan
Many years ago, while I was taking the SAT, I found that there were three questions in the verbal area that I was able to answer because I had been introduced to the words in DUNGEON. I can't remember what they were now, but they had to do with being dark, gloomy, swampy, boggy and very mean (the type that leads to biting people's faces off). They got me into college, which got me through ROTC, which got me to Iraq... where I got shot at... Hey, thanks for nothing ;-)
ASEO out
I'm old school - I learned to DM back before they had flavour text. Personally I would be happier if they dispenced with flavour text boxs altogether - but thats not going to happen. Basically I feel its my job to know what sort of things the PCs are going to be seeing. In Dungeons or other suitable environments I photocopy the maps and write on them etc. in order to help jog my memory about what this encounter was about.
So I don't even paraphrase instead I put what the players see into my own words. If I can't do that then its a sure sign that I did not prepare enough for this adventure (or I need more sleep).
Exactly how "old school" are you? I bought the Basic boxed set back in 1983 when I began to play and it came with Keep on the Borderlands. Even then there was "read aloud" text for the DM.
The fact that you want to say it in your own words is probably common among all of us. Myself, I read the text verbatim most of the time and then paraphrase in my own words to reinforce what the players just heard.
The boxed text you complain of is there to aid you so you don't have to suddenly stop during your game and read through an area description to see what the players should and should not know and then give them a description. The authors have already done this for you. Boxed text is what the characters should get from an initial glance and is designed for you to not say too little and not say too much.
I suppose you would rather have a Monster Manual that isn't full of tedious things like descriptions and what-not, either. Just a nice streamlined stat block, right?
Anyway, while we're on the subject of words, try this one...
Prose: the ordinary language people use in speaking and writing.
Hmmm.... You don't like that, huh? I'd love to see what method you use for DMing.
I like flavor text boxes. I'll admit, I usually read them verbatim. I do however, often go in when I am reading the adventure for the first couple of times and make comments to be added or deleted to the flavor text. Part of the reason I do this is so I can set up the map as I’m reading the description for a room. Add tables, barrels, sword on the floor and two snarling orcs.
I personally don’t have a lot of time to prep for DMing. I usually remember an adventure that will fit into my free flowing campaign, and then re read it the night before. I have on occasion run an adventure the first time I picked up the book.
SPOILER ALERT for Village of Oester
I was as surprised as the players, that what I thought was a swamp romp, based on the picture on the cover, turned out to be a Night of the Living Dead session. Man, was that a great session.
On a side note, reading the text can have some funny repercussions. An encounter in a troll filled cave complex was once described as a room with a small fire in the center, lying next to the fire was a blanketroll. Apparently the DM had trolls on the brain, because we ended up fighting a ferocious Blanke Troll. After the battle, we were on guard for other terrors…like Sheet Goblins…or Pillowcase Gnomes.
ASEO out
You've been a DM for an awfully long time then, since even the B modules from the early 80s had boxed flavor text.I usually do read the text verbatim unless there is good cause not to. I might paraphrase, or hold back the description if they immediately encountered something. Typically though, I expect that writers may be trying to provide some of that feel, and I don't get uncomfortable with multi-syllabic vocabulary.
On the other hand, occassionally the boxed text is just awful, and best paraphrased.... haven't had that problem in Dungeon in a long time though.
- Ashavan
Well I went back and checked some of this and I'm exagerating to a certian extent. I should really say something along the lines of "I learned to DM before they consistantly had boxed flavour text".
At some point there is an editorial by (probably) either Barbara G. Young or Wolfgang Baur were they pretty much state that from this point forward all submissions must have boxed flavour text. After that presumably Dungeon always had boxed flavour text.
That said I went back as far as The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and note that it does in fact have quite a few flavour text boxs.
Now I'm basically certian that this module predates Dungeon and its pretty early on in my DMing that I picked this one up - Fond memories of it - it marks my very first Total Party Kill. Pretty hard for a DM to forget the first time he (or she) kills off the entire party. Couldn't decide if I was pleased with myself or felt somewhat responsable for the two players that were in tears and the rest that are sniffling and glaring accusingly at me.
That said I went and grabbed Dungeon number 7 (the first one I ever bought - my game store was apparently behind the times) and there is not a drop of boxed flavour text in it. In fact grabbing some more of the older issues its pretty much years before flavour text really starts to take off in the pages of Dungeon...Hmm or maybe not...there is relitivly little flavour text in (the very good) issue #10 - just a few boxes for adventure hooks and a couple of critical parts of the adventure 'Threshold of Evil' but half the modules in issue #9 use it.
Anyway I note that as late as issue #56 the excellent 'Mud Sorcerers Tomb' does not have any significant amount of flavour text (in boxs anyway).
I certianly really came into my DMing with adventures between issue #7 which would have been more or less introduced during my first 'real' (that is we are actually using most of the rules and they are being used properly) Campaign and issue #56 where Mud Sorcerers Tomb is the last adventure I run for my childhood-teenager gaming buddies/group. After that we all left for varous universities and for the most part went are seperate way. So if you were DMing during this period (looks like roughly from about '86-'95) and where a big fan of Dungeon you really could not get too comfortable with flavour text boxes because they might or might not exist. Which of course suited me fine since I decided I did not like them real early on.
(A) Exactly how "old school" are you? I bought the Basic boxed set back in 1983 when I began to play and it came with Keep on the Borderlands. Even then there was "read aloud" text for the DM.(B) The fact that you want to say it in your own words is probably common among all of us. Myself, I read the text verbatim most of the time and then paraphrase in my own words to reinforce what the players just heard.
(C) The boxed text you complain of is there to aid you so you don't have to suddenly stop during your game and read through an area description to see what the players should and should not know and then give them a description. The authors have already done this for you. Boxed text is what the characters should get from an initial glance and is designed for you to not say too little and not say too much.
(D)I suppose you would rather have a Monster Manual that isn't full of tedious things like descriptions and what-not, either. Just a nice streamlined stat block, right?
(E)Anyway, while we're on the subject of words, try this one...
Prose: the ordinary language people use in speaking and writing.
Hmmm.... You don't like that, huh? I'd love to see what method you use for DMing.
(A)Not quite as old school as that post of mine comes off as being. That said if your primary source of adventures is Dungeon Magazine - and 90% of mine was - then flavour text was hardly present in every module back in the mid '80s. In fact it went from being an unusual feature in an adventure to being extremely common and finally to a requirement as the years progressed.
(B) No doubt - but I would suspect that those of us that learned to DM when flavour text was purely optional on the part of the adventure writer and not all that common would tend to read it verbatim less frequently then those who learned after pretty much every adventure had it.
(C) Well there was always a method to the editors madness in Dungeon. 'Back in the Day' as it were, the first paragraph(s) would cover what the basic layout of the room was. So there was never any need to skim through the entire entry just to tell the players what they see (or hear or feel or whatever). In fact probably one of the things I did not like about the boxed flavour text was that the information was increasingly couched in stylistic prose that I had to remove on the fly and then rephrase in my own words.
My real complaint however was that this stylistic prose kept growing and becoming ever more elaborate - while at the same time the information contained in it stopped being repeated in the text below. This actually made things really tricky some of the time and could sometimes throw me off my pacing or cause inadvertant slips where relivent information got left out. It takes certian skills to be able to read some one elses elaborate prose effectively to a group of players and have it come out sounding really good.
Especially considering that sometimes you have to speed the stuff up or slow it down in the middle of the adventure - if your players are looking a little on the distracted side its time to cut to the chase...on the other hand if they are looking like deer caught in the headlights and are really in bad shape and still twitching from the last two kill or be killed duels you want to slow things down. Thats so much more difficult if your reading some one elses notes verbatum -I mean what do you do in the case where you want to cut to the action? speak faster?.
In anycase I found myself disliking the boxed flavour text ever more with each new issue until the whole thing reached a kind of extreme around the time of the 'Shadow Born' adventure. By this point flavour text boxes where becoming flavour text coloumns...Reading the stuff verbatum would be like delivering a sermon...after that things seem to have shrunk back down considerably to the point where the flavour of the boxed text seems to be vanilla - just the basic facts more or less. I can live with this - and anyway its not like its going to change anymore then the state is going to decide that I'm tax exempt just for being me.
(D)No. Nor did anything I said in my post imply that in any way.
(E)It means something slightly different when I use the term 'Stylistic Prose'. Of course I use prose; I'm just more comfortable with my own instead of some one elses. Especially when its going to be a different some one elses each week.
On a side note, reading the text can have some funny repercussions. An encounter in a troll filled cave complex was once described as a room with a small fire in the center, lying next to the fire was a blanketroll. Apparently the DM had trolls on the brain, because we ended up fighting a ferocious Blanke Troll. After the battle, we were on guard for other terrors…like Sheet Goblins…or Pillowcase Gnomes.ASEO out
Yeah - those blanketrolls are almost as bad as the dreaded Gazebo - or so I've read.
This is a good point; Gygax certainly had a habit of using big words when small ones would do.But it's not just him: The unusual subject matter of the D&D game results in the frequent use of words that would otherwise be relegated to Scrabble playoff rounds. My sister, who is far smarter and more educated than I, learned what "eldritch" meant a couple months ago, from a word-of-the-day calendar. I've known for about 20 years now. At age 10, I greatly impressed the local librarians by knowing what "Brachiation" meant.
D&D is full of this stuff: Codex, Falchion, Enervation, Interposing, Blackguard, Simulacrum — these are all honest-to-Webster's words that your average D&D person knows without thinking, and your average regular person probably doesn't.
Personally, I'm fine with this. D&D is a mental game of words and numbers and imagination. Encouraging players to exercise their noggins a little is no bad thing.
My opinion is this has good points and bad.
On the upside everyone will think your smarter then you really are.
On the downside everyone will think your smarter then you really are.
Either way your good to go on ruining a game of Balderdash for everyone else because you know to many of the 'obscure' words in the book that comes with the game.
Odd...after a while it won't let me edit my own posts.
I note I made an error. Shadow Born is actually issue #35. Mud Sorcerers Tomb is issue #37. So I guess that would put my younger campaigns from about '86-'92.
Looking at the flavour text for Shadow Born again...holy shamoly...I'm guessing close to 40% of the writing for that fairly lengthy adventure is in a flavor text box.
One of the many sucky things about this custom message board. It's also as buggy as all hell. This post was originally meant for another thread that I had open in a tab. This is the third time I've pressed submit on a post and it's attached it to the WRONG FREAKING THREAD!
Grr...
Exactly how "old school" are you? I bought the Basic boxed set back in 1983 when I began to play and it came with Keep on the Borderlands. Even then there was "read aloud" text for the DM.
Incorrect. The Basic sets that came with B2 had no adventure in the rulebook, aside from the little Haunted Tower sample dungeon. No flavor text there.
The basic sets that came out in 1983, with separate DM and Player manuals, did have adventures (solo adventure in the player's book, sample party adventure in the DM's) and these did have boxed flavor text, but this set did not come with module B2.
In addition, the printings of B2 that came with the early boxed sets had no flavor text, unless you're going to count the Rumor Tables...
As far as using flavor text, I don't, I skim it because most adventures these days assume you read it and leave out details in the actual description of the encounter or room that are important.
But it's not big words that make me shy away from the flavor text, it's the usually (at least 9 times out of 10) assinine way authors describe the rooms. As an example, in the module "Return to the Keep on the Borderlands", there is mentioned, and I quote, "A stoned Kobold." Ridiculous. This is definitely a case where the "big" word, petrified, would have been a better choice.
Until game adventure designers learn how to write, and quit hiding behind the big words they found on thesaurus.com, I'll keep ignoring their flavor text and composing my own.
Big words are fine, if they fit the flow of the sentence and paragraph, and if the author obviously understands what they mean. That is the difference between Gygax and some of the folks writing now. Gary obviously understood what the words meant, even if we, the readers, didn't always, some of the new crop of writers just look to me like they're padding their text to impress an editor or make the reader think they are intelligent.
You aren't fooling anybody.
I don't agree. I like words. It's bad to have things look bad. I like things. Things are good. But they can be bad. If they are bad, then they aren't good at all.
Big words are good. Talking is good. The adventure will be good. I like adventures. Words give adventures stuff. I like stuff. Stuff is good, and is never bad.
Lots of words is good. It means the adventure is like a book. Book are stories. I like stories. D&D can be a story.
Here is an example. Richard Pett is a writer. He wrote The Styes. I like The Styes. Those words are good. Pett did a good job. He used many words. He told a story. The story was good.
Words are good. You must always talk. You should always say things. Things are good. Never talk low on purpose. It is bad.
I will not strive to be pedestrian. - Dennis Miller
Exactly how "old school" are you? I bought the Basic boxed set back in 1983 when I began to play and it came with Keep on the Borderlands. Even then there was "read aloud" text for the DM.Incorrect. The Basic sets that came with B2 had no adventure in the rulebook, aside from the little Haunted Tower sample dungeon. No flavor text there.
The basic sets that came out in 1983, with separate DM and Player manuals, did have adventures (solo adventure in the player's book, sample party adventure in the DM's) and these did have boxed flavor text, but this set did not come with module B2.
In addition, the printings of B2 that came with the early boxed sets had no flavor text, unless you're going to count the Rumor Tables...
Chatdemon, since this was over 20 years ago, I can't debate these little historical facts with you except for this...
I didn't exactly come by my first Basic set by honest means and all of the parts came home with me sort of piece-by-piece. But one of those PIECES was Keep on the Borderlands. I don't remember this Haunted Tower at all, but it was a long time ago.
Here is an example. Richard Pett is a writer. He wrote The Styes. I like The Styes. Those words are good. Pett did a good job. He used many words. He told a story. The story was good.Words are good. You must always talk. You should always say things. Things are good. Never talk low on purpose. It is bad.
Chris Wissel -
You cracked me up and proved your point at the same time. Good show!
- Ashavan
Exactly how "old school" are you? I bought the Basic boxed set back in 1983 when I began to play and it came with Keep on the Borderlands. Even then there was "read aloud" text for the DM.
Incorrect. The Basic sets that came with B2 had no adventure in the rulebook, aside from the little Haunted Tower sample dungeon. No flavor text there.
The basic sets that came out in 1983, with separate DM and Player manuals, did have adventures (solo adventure in the player's book, sample party adventure in the DM's) and these did have boxed flavor text, but this set did not come with module B2.
In addition, the printings of B2 that came with the early boxed sets had no flavor text, unless you're going to count the Rumor Tables...
O... M... G!
Dazzled,
rob
Senior Software Developer
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One of the many sucky things about this custom message board. It's also as buggy as all hell. This post was originally meant for another thread that I had open in a tab. This is the third time I've pressed submit on a post and it's attached it to the WRONG FREAKING THREAD!
Not to hijack the thread, but we are aware of this bug and it's definitely on our list of things to fix. We even know what we need to do to fix it. However there's a small mountain of other to-do items to climb before we'll get to it. In the meantime, please accept our apologies for the inconvenience.
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"Personally, I'm fine with this. D&D is a mental game of words and numbers and imagination. Encouraging players to exercise their noggins a little is no bad thing."
Exactly! Don't dumb D&D down, smart it up!
Also, EGG = > all Gygax haters. The de-Gygaxification is why I will never own a rulebook for AD&D 2nd Edition or 3.0 or 3.5 or whatever. Everything after Gary left is a bad dream.
"Personally, I'm fine with this. D&D is a mental game of words and numbers and imagination. Encouraging players to exercise their noggins a little is no bad thing."
Exactly! Don't dumb D&D down, smart it up!
Also, EGG = > all Gygax haters. The de-Gygaxification is why I will never own a rulebook for AD&D 2nd Edition or 3.0 or 3.5 or whatever. Everything after Gary left is a bad dream.
Umm...why even bother reading Dungeon then? Its not like many of the adventures are written by Gygax.
Personally I don't mind Gygax's material but there are quite a few others that have made good contributions to the game as well.
"Umm...why even bother reading Dungeon then? Its not like many of the adventures are written by Gygax."
I didn't say adventures, I said rulebooks. Dungeon adventures are easy for me to convert.
Chatdemon, since this was over 20 years ago, I can't debate these little historical facts with you except for this...
I didn't exactly come by my first Basic set by honest means and all of the parts came home with me sort of piece-by-piece. But one of those PIECES was Keep on the Borderlands. I don't remember this Haunted Tower at all, but it was a long time ago.
Fair enough, if you recieved a Basic Set secondhand, it may well have had extras in it. My only point was that B2 and the Basic Sets that contained it had no flavor text boxes. Later Basic Sets did (the ones with two rules manuals and Elmore art).
But, you are correct about products from that era having the flavor text. The Tamoachan and Tsojcanth modules are two examples that did.