Reading through my issues of Dungeon lately, it occured to me that it's a rare monster indeed that doesn't have either class levels or some sort of exotic template. What ever happened to just plain old gnolls, ogres, etc? Instead, we get all sorts of oddball combinations, most of which require massive amounts of space in the text to detail their game stats. Now, a little variety can be good every now and then, but baseline creatures exist for a reason. You can't invoke any sort of reaction from unusual creatures if their usual counterparts are paradoxically more rare. In other words, if everybody the PCs encounter is an exception, what's the point of the rule?
Not to mention all that space in the text that the stats take up. Personally, I'd rather have some of the space dediated to statting-out the half-fiendish advanced elemental ogre sorcerors (or whatever) given over to describing more encounter areas or more details on NPC personalities and motivations.
In a perfect world, a little restraint would be shown and this phenominon would be limited to no more than one or two (or even no) "oddballs" per adventure.
- Yamo, chaotic axiomatic half-dragon pseudonatural beholder barbarian 11/horizon walker 4
Agreed. I want the story, monster write-up, locations and other features to make the monster interesting. Too often it seems that the author takes a shortcut and uses some wierd combination of template/classes/new creature to try and make things interesting because the base material isn't interesting.
Or to put it another way, if an adventure isn't interesting with orcs and trolls; then vampiric orcs and troll barbarians don't make it better.
Word.
Hear, Hear!
I agree completely.
Along those lines; why don’t they use the sample NPCs from the DMG? I don’t have my book in front of me but I seem to remember 5-10 pages devoted to sample NPCs.
I agree.
I like old-fashioned sword and sorcery, and sometimes I can't help thinking that the editors are a bit jaded, or even bored with the classics.
Where are the orc hordes, trolls and evil necromancers? These guys are the bread-and-butter of plug-in adventures, and far easier to use than your average fiendish vampiric prismatic half-dragon beholder-bulette.
Creative Director
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The main reason you see a lot of classed monsters, advanced monsters, and templated monsters in Dungeon is because there's actually not that wide a range of high-level monsters to choose from in the Monster Manual. In fact, the ability to modify monsters in this manner is one of the great strengths of 3rd edition. And you can only do so many high-level adventures with dragons, fiends, nightshades, and tarrasques before you need to spice things up with some good old wendigo advanced awakened dire elephant dread pirates!
Speaking for myself, I'm more bored with modern fantasy than with the classics. I much prefer Robert Howard, Fritz Leiber, and Clark Ashton Smith over more modern writers, and an adventure proposal cast in the style of their stories certainly has a better chance of catching my eye than one that takes Harry Potter as its inspiration.
We certainly aren't accepting and printing adventrues based solely on how crazy the monsters are classed and templated. In fact, having too many templates and classes on too many monsters in your adventure is more likely to do your chances of getting published harmed, since these types of NPCs do indeed increase word counts.
So what I'm trying to say here is I'm turning the challenge around to the contributors. We can't publish old-fashioned adventures with orcs, trolls, and necromancers if none get submitted!
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Creative Director
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Along those lines; why don’t they use the sample NPCs from the DMG? I don’t have my book in front of me but I seem to remember 5-10 pages devoted to sample NPCs.
A: It's better to build an NPC appropriate to a scene than it is to shoehorn a generic fighter into it.
B: We do use them, but not that often and even then, usually for minor NPCs that have little impact on the adventure.
C: We sometimes forget those pre-generated NPCs are in the DMG.
D: All of the above.
ANSWER: D
Speaking for myself, I'm more bored with modern fantasy than with the classics. I much prefer Robert Howard, Fritz Leiber, and Clark Ashton Smith over more modern writers...
Ah... two the the great ones. I will pick up Clark Ashton Smith as I type based on your recommendation. Leiber got me back to fantasy books in the first place after years reading other genres, and now a need something new (or probably old) to keep me with with the genre.
As for the orc and necromancer story... is it alright if its set in the Forgotten Realms?
I have to agree. There does seem to be a rash of over templating. Fiendish, Half-dragon, Half-Elemntal, Vampire, Troll Cleric/Barbarian/Rangers are just getting to common.
Freaky chaos blob tentacle slime multi-eyed trans-dimensional creatures from a “realm of pure evil” don’t do anything for me either. Heck, my cat urps up at least one of these a day.
ASEO out
As much as I'd love to see my adventure published... the kobolds in that adventure are still "advanced" kobolds in that they have class levels - thanks for the words of support though :) I suspect my adventure will languish a while longer, since I know (now) that Dungeon receives more adventures of that level than any other kind (sorry James, I really didn't know that when I submitted the adventure... perhaps a periodic guide letting those of us who want to submit adventures and other articles letting us know what you have ten dozen too many of might be helpful now and then?)
As far as the NPCs in the DMG, I often have trouble using them, or want to customize the NPC so much that I'm better off creating them from scratch. I don't mind "advanced" humanoids so much... I use them in my own adventures after all, but I generally try to reserve the really more wacky templates for very important NPCs. That's one of the reasons I do like the Critical Threat feature... the NPCs are usually very detailed, but open enough to still be useful.
...I know (now) that Dungeon receives more adventures of that level than any other kind...
Which level? :)
Iskander...
7th level. Had I known at the time, I would have upped my estimate for a word count and perhaps expanded the dungeon a little bit - gone for 10th level maybe. But even that would have been difficult. I almost need the 7th level adventure to set the ground work, since setting up kobolds as a mid level adversary is tricky to begin with.
Hey Koldoon-
How do you know which levels are overpopulated? From a previous rejection feedback letter or something? I just sent in a proposal for a 1st (into 2nd or even 3rd) level proposal with just plain ol' kobolds...It seems that to use the monsters by themselves, it has to be really low level (or you have to use a whole lot of them).
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Creative Director
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The vast majority of adventure proposals we recieve are for mid-level (6th-level to 12th-level) adventures. I have several theories why this is, but that's another thread.
In any case, of those mid-level adventures, 7th-level adventures seem to be the most common submissions.
We rarely get good submissions for 1st-2nd level adventures, and even more rarely get good submissions for 15th+ level adventures. Personally, I'd love to see a lot more submissions for levels 17 and above, since these are the hardest adventures to build, what with all the options available to PCs and the simple fact that there's not a lot of generic monsters that aren't dragons or fiends that can challenge such high level characters. Which means, of course, lots of monsters from other books, templated monsters, advanced monsters, and monsters with class levels, all of which take up a lot more room stat-block-wise and thus decreases the play-length of the adventure.
Hence the reason those higher level adventures don't have many "plain old monsters."
Hey Koldoon-
How do you know which levels are overpopulated? From a previous rejection feedback letter or something? I just sent in a proposal for a 1st (into 2nd or even 3rd) level proposal with just plain ol' kobolds...It seems that to use the monsters by themselves, it has to be really low level (or you have to use a whole lot of them).
I know because we have wonderful editors at the magazine who are very involved in the online community and messageboards here. They responded to someone who asked what was received most frequently on another thread, sadly after I had made my submission. This has me working on another submission while I wait for them to get to my proposal, since I'm sure it will take them a while yet. I actually have an idea for a good villian for 2nd - 3rd level characters that I was going to submit as a critical threat, but maybe I'll flesh it out a bit more and do an adventure instead.
If I never see another adventure with orcs, goblins, gnolls, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears and their ilk it will be TOO SOON!!! Besides, I can write that crap myself & run it out of the monster manual. Lemmie guess--small farming village, meet the mayor in a tavern & he asks you to save the town from humanoids who live in a cave and have a few traps, a barracks room, a toilet with an Otyugh in it, a storage room, a room for women and children and a room for the king. Do you even NEED a MAP?
I'm all for templated and advanced creatures in Dungeon and here's why--I hate writing them myself. I want Dungeon to print stuff it's a pain in the ass for me to write myself. Any jackass can pick five monsters from the monster manual and throw 'em on a numbered map. Adding templates takes for friggin' EVER! I don't generally do it in my games because any single bad guy I write up is dead in 3-5 rounds. That means out of all his 50 cool tweaked out template abilities he gets to use 3-5 half of which will fail. Whee! That's worth me crunching stats for an hour--NOT!! But I will GLADLY use a well crunched template NPC made by someone else for Dungeon. As long as it's not another friggin' half-dragon, that is...
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Speaking for myself, I'm more bored with modern fantasy than with the classics. I much prefer Robert Howard, Fritz Leiber, and Clark Ashton Smith over more modern writers, and an adventure proposal cast in the style of their stories certainly has a better chance of catching my eye than one that takes Harry Potter as its inspiration.
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Marry me, James Jacobs!! From your taste in fantasy to your desire for more HIGH level (17+) adventures, you must be my one TRUE love. Any chance you like Vietnamese food too? S!@~ I hope my wife doesn't find out...
check it out. small village - check. mayor - check (sorta). the rest ...dunno. tear it up, let me know what you think. granted there are a few kobolds with the template, but like the other guy said, you have to have the 'norms' to make the templates stand out. maps-schmaps!
SPOILERS----------
The small village has an unusual local character, a sapling (medium-sized) treant. He interacts well with the community and helps out where he can. He answers to many different names, but the name that the children gave him for the number of leaves on his crown, Nineteen, is his favorite. The PCs will know and have maybe directly interacted with Nineteen before the day that starts this adventure. Nineteen was on a mission for the village to see if the way was clear through the kobold territory of the forest and to check on the tower that is the halfway point through the forest. He returns, riddled with small crossbow bolts, in the ‘arms’ of an animated tree and tells of an invasion of the tower. The town elders ask for volunteers to investigate the tower and find any survivors. The surviving defenders of the tower hid in the basement and are waiting for the perfect time to emerge and retake the tower. The PCs will find a small force of @30 kobolds led by a 3rd level rogue. When they return to the village, they find that Nineteen has been poisoned and is dying. It is actually the result of a curse from a kobold huecuva and its blight. A sending spell comes to inform the villagers that a jar of keoghtom’s ointment is coming by way of a river barge and should arrive in 2 days. The elders ask the PCs to ride out and meet the barge to provide secure passage to the village. The PCs find the partially sunken remains of the barge, watched by a pair of ogres, and quickly pick up the kobold’s trail to the heucuva’s cave complex. The huecuva orchestrated the theft of the ointment as part of its penance; its deity wants the treant destroyed. There will be another @50 kobolds (a few that are 1st level rogues), and a few ghouls in the upper level. The second level holds the temple to Kurtulmak where the huecuva once held sway, now inhabited by a gibbering mouther, and the cleric’s quarters where the huecuva will make its final stand. There is an exit tunnel that leads away from the caves to a small marsh where a 6 HD vine horror lurks. It was this horror’s arrival that triggered the series of actions that have been interrupted by the PCs. It was sent from Kurtulmak to aid the kobolds in their expansion of their territory, but was attacked by the kobolds, which set off the deity’s anger and curse of the kobold leader. The PCs should find the ointment and heal Nineteen and may even rid the forest of the vine horror and this particular colony of kobolds
couldnt work in the otyugh or the 10 x 10 room with the orc, axe, and chest, but there you go. The women and children mostly took off after the leader got turned into the huecuva and then the rest left when the small group of kobolds started feeding on their own kind and turned into ghouls.
And as for modern fantasy, have you guys ever read the Robin Hobb stuff? Assassins Quest, Royal Assassin, and the other one. And I'm not sure if these count, but what about Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles. Nevermind the Disney movie, the books ROCK!
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Creative Director
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We can't use templates from third-party publishers in Dungeon, unfortunately, as creative and interesting as they might be; I'm a huge fan of the Advanced Bestiary myself, and use it all the time in the campaign I run on Saturdays. But for the magazine, we'll only be using monsters and templates from Wizards of the Coast products, or, of course, new monsters and templates created specifically for either magazine (Dungeon or Dragon).
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Creative Director
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Quote:
Marry me, James Jacobs!! From your taste in fantasy to your desire for more HIGH level (17+) adventures, you must be my one TRUE love. Any chance you like Vietnamese food too? s@@~ I hope my wife doesn't find out...
...Ahem... So, I was changing the subject the other day, and it turns out that it's true: polar bears really DO sleep on ice!
On that note, I think it's time to go get some pho.
I thought the OGL allowed for exchange of info, provided that it wasn't drawings and such--or is this a policy of Dragon and Dungeon?
It probably has to do with the fact that Dungeon is an "Official" magazine of the Dungeons and Dragons game, and has a special relationship with WotC.
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Creative Director
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The OGL is a complex beast, and I know I don't understand all of its ins and outs, but the short version is that you're correct, cwslyclgh. Since the magazines are the official D&D magazines, it's our policy to only use brand new material or material from Wizards of the Coast products.
Here's an idea for you: Keep the new creature feature in Dungeon and make sure the adventures in the same issue showcase the new critters.
That way you're able to fill up the high level adventures without relying too much on strange monster variants. The game needs more high-level vanilla monsters anyway, so here's a chance to do it.
...and as a bonus, I dont have to start buying Dragon again. (=
Actually, she was a divine guardian dread mummy nymph druid 4/fighter 1, but close enough. You don't get to be the Queen of Tamoachan on good looks alone, is what I'm saying.
You have all the fun... my players revolt when I send plain old fashioned bullywugs at them.... not appreciating the hunting I had to do to find a 3rd edition version. <sigh>
The shortage of high CR monsters isn't the problem that I have... it's the fact that most of the high CR creatures are territorial or loners, which makes it hard to construct adventures around them. Which is why you end up with low CR creatures with a lot of character levels or funky templates.
I'm all for templated and advanced creatures in Dungeon and here's why--I hate writing them myself. I want Dungeon to print stuff it's a pain in the ass for me to write myself. Any jackass can pick five monsters from the monster manual and throw 'em on a numbered map. Adding templates takes for friggin' EVER! I don't generally do it in my games because any single bad guy I write up is dead in 3-5 rounds. That means out of all his 50 cool tweaked out template abilities he gets to use 3-5 half of which will fail. Whee!...
Interesting... and a good point..now maybe the 7 half illithiad/lizard men D&D miniatures I got stuck with will actually get some play.
ASEO out
Any jackass can pick five monsters from the monster manual and throw 'em on a numbered map.
I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. Sure any jackass can pick five monsters and throw 'em on a numbered map, but that doesn't mean it'll be an interesting adventure. :) Most of the groups I've gamed with had a lot more fun with the story than with the numbers... None of our really memorable moments have anything to do with mechanics... From the pyromaniac wizard buying an ox as a pet for a child in a tinker caravan then blasting the entire area with a fireball, to the deranged arquebus-wielding Ash clone, to the mute half-orc ranger, to the damn enemy cleric who kept barely escaping with her life... It's all about story. The stats and mechanics give structure to the story, but they sure as hell can't replace it. :-)
It's all about story. The stats and mechanics give structure to the story, but they sure as hell can't replace it. :-)
This old grunt says, "Hoo-Ah!!!"
I'm a reborn gamer (took about 20 years off between high school and now). Confusing the rules with the game is the most common mistake I see in the new crop of gamers. (You kids and your rock & rolll!!) It's a role playing game, not chess.
Back to the point. Intelligent monsters have levels. It's pretty much a fact of life in my campaign, and the players have come to respect it. (Although a new player did take off after the Orc Leader this week: 3rd level Human Monk vs. 6th level Orc Barbarian = not pretty.)
And some monsters have ... changed depending on the environment. Those stats you were given in the books? They're guidelines, not iron-bound laws carved into stone. (Mixed metaphors, no extra charge!)
Now, as for Dungeon using new critters or old, it's easier to use the old ones, but the audience occasionally needs some variety. I think the best policy is to mix and match, or you get predictable. ("Psst! Hey guys, he's DMing the latest Dungeon module, so don't attack anything without a good Sense Motive roll!")
That's my 2CP, and I'm sticking to it.
Telas
Marry me, James Jacobs!! From your taste in fantasy to your desire for more HIGH level (17+) adventures, you must be my one TRUE love.
Hell no! I saw him first!
(Yes, more 15+/17+ adventures, please. More people must submit!)