My two cents,
Wil Wheaton's articles are all about one thing. Wil Wheaton. They really, IMO, have very little to do with gaming. Gaming is just an excuse for Wil Wheaton to talk about Wil Wheaton.
So, not only is Wil Save irrelevant to gaming in a direct way, it is irrelevant to gaming even tangentally. Gaming is just the vehicle for Wil Wheaton to tell you what he did on such and such a date or occasion. This kind of article couldn't even make it in Entertainment Magazine or that sort of celeb watching magazine, as it has no general interest unless you are interested in Wil Wheaton as Wil Wheaton.
Wil Wheaton was obviously given Wil Save because of his celebrity. He has no gaming credentials other than having rolled dice like millions of other gamers. His only distinguishing feature is a minor celebrity, now in the past. This is no reason to continue to indulge his musings on what it is like to be Wil Wheaton.
But it is only one page. Why should anyone care? If you don't like it, don't...
Obviously an article that has generated 200 posts needs to stick around for awhile hm? :)
Wil Wheaton was obviously given Wil Save because of his celebrity. He has no gaming credentials other than having rolled dice like millions of other gamers. His only distinguishing feature is a minor celebrity, now in the past.
A couple of notes: Wil was given the article because he can write. He's not the world's greatest author, but he's pretty good. Wil has one of the most popular blogs on the net, and it has nothing to do with his former celebrity status.
As for qualifications... It's hard to imagine a more suitable qualification for that article than having actually played D&D. Sure, millions of other players have rolled the dice, but frankly the vast majority of them would be no more capable of writing professionally (or, distressingly often, even coherently) than I am of growing wings and flying like a bird -- or a half-dragon for preference. ;-) Wil's got all the qualifications he needs for this type of article, as far as I'm concerned.
None of which is to say that Wil's articles have been particularly helpful or useful, or that Wil's talents are even terribly suited to the format. I love the idea of having a monthly column about gaming and the gaming life, and juggling other aspects of life with gaming. Contrast ASEO's sample articles in this thread with Wil's articles, and it's immediately clear that other people are better suited to that role than Wil is. I like Wil, but this isn't the article for him; or at least he hasn't shown yet that he knows what to do with it.
To those who like Wil Save, I honestly don't think you will miss just one page. You can read Wil's blog. The page would be better used for a Map of Mystery, every issue, which is actually useful and has something to do with gaming.
Samantha - I would miss the one page. It's just about the only page in the magazine that ISN'T solely gaming supplement information or advertising. You don't think we'd miss it because you wouldn't. As for reading his blog instead, I do, but, for the most part, he writes about different interests in his blog.
You say Wil's article isn't useful and doesn't have something to do with gaming, but I would challenge that notion. Something doesn't have to be a part of the game mechanic to have something to do with gaming. When Wil writes about the challenges of finding time to game with the sorts of commitments that come with adult life in the US, I relate. When he writes about his dice, and his possesiveness of them, I relate to that too. When he writes about how sometimes having fun is more important than the game, I see something I need to remind my players of sometimes.
I'm sorry you don't find the article useful. Forgive me if I do.
Don't get me wrong... the length of this thread is an indication that both your view and mine are shared by many readers.
In regard to the car wreck that was the Wil Save in issue 119.
I've never been to a gaming convention. I've never been somewhere that was having a con, or I found out about it after the fact. I almost made CamelCon over in Iraq, but it turned out to just be a front for some insurgent cell. I hear they had a blast, sponsored by the US Air Force, but that is another topic.
I think I'd like to go to one of the major ones. I had some friends that went to CoastCon in Mississippi in 03. They said it was pretty lame. I guess the thought of traveling to a distant Con, not knowing what to expect has kept me from going. I don't want to end up standing in a big under used room, being followed around by some kid dressed as an elf telling me about his 97th level Mage who destroys planets for breakfast, and escaping by staring at a dusty copy of a first edition Isle of Dread that some guy is asking $50 for. I really like gaming, and I'd hate to be totally let down by an event that claimed to be "the epitome of gaming".
Now, I read things about GenCon and it seems like THE CON to go to. But what should a guy like me, a Con virgin, do at a Con. And, I'm not looking for the answers off some top ten T-shirt. I’d like to hear from someone about their first Con, rather than from a Con Pro. Make it a nobody, not someone in the gaming industry, and then publish it in DRAGON and keep my DUNGEON all about usable gaming content. <Did I just say that out loud? Damn this lack of an internal monolog.>
I 'm not going to get invited to a DV game. Although to play Car Wars with Steve Jackson would totally rock. But then again, I’d like to play published, or to be published, adventure DMed by the author…just to say I had. I'm not going to be a guest speaker. Unless someone wants to hear about the top ten things my cat yacks up. I'm going to show up, and be lost in the whirl of activity that is a Con. That being said, I picture myself entering behind some guy dressed like a barbarian and then just standing in a maze of booths with no clear direction of where to go, what to do, or how to get involved in anything. Walking through the crowds, what should I expect? Should I expect anything?
I've played in RPGA events from time to time, and found the old Living Forgotten Realms to be based entirely on the character's "Certs". Is that representative of a convention game? I've also got several classic modules with notes in them like "...first run as a tournament adventure at GenCon 82." Now that is something I'd like to take part in. Is it better enjoyed with friends, or is it easier to get involved if you are alone?
These are some of the things that have kept me from going to Cons in the past. But I think that it probably really is all about the experience. The whirl of activity, the varied booths, the guest speakers, and the games you get to play. I think I'll go find a Con, and just go. Get caught up in it all and have fun. And I think there are some people I'd track down for autographs if I had the chance, Wolfgang Baur (one of my favorites), any of the D&D classics, Gygax, Otus, Arnsen. And If I see someone with an ASEO SUX button, I'll introduce myself, buy them a drink, and ask them where the he11 they heard of me.
ASEO out
[insert non-sucking art here. Maybe something from www.theforge.pl ]
A perfect summation of the shortcomings and failure of Wil Save.
All well said, Samantha.
ah sugar,
this kid can't cut a friggin break
first kicked outta Trek by letter writers
now he's getting booted from a "niche dork gaming magazine"
how bad can it get for this poor soul
i'm laughing and crying at the same time
i like the column
he's a fell man
he rode in the fast lane and couldn't keep up
like many of us he's seen better days and is now chilling out with his gaming life
i had a bit in the NYC art scene
now I'm an art teacher who runs a game for the 3:30 stragglers in his room
guys, it's only one page
(although, i do think it should be in dragon instead)
be merciful
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Perfectly said Samantha. I personally am amazed that real features things like "Critical Threats" and "Map of Mystery" appear only in the magazine sporadically but the drivel that is "Wil Save" returns issue after issue.
I personally thought Wheaton would never top his first article in sheer WTF factor. You know, the one where he in a single page talks about trying to connect with his stepsons and proceeds to scold one for using his dice. However, #119's article actually made me want to find and purchase a "shut up Wesley" TV shirt just because it came off as the whiniest most inconsequential thing I've ever had end up in the back of anything I've purchased. Honestly, if his writing is so damn golden than post it up monthly on this website. I don't pay for this website and I don't have to click on it if I don't want to. It saves Dungeon some money on pages which they can put toward things I actually WANT to buy (like Critical Threats, Maps of Mystery, or ANYTHING else)! Meanwhile though the argument seems to be evenly split and those of us who keep feeling shafted by Dungeon's attempts to connect back with its older readers just makes it more likely that we will just stop buying the darn product.
QSamantha -
I think it's clear here that we disagree. I find Wil's article well written, you do not. His article resonates with me, clearly it does not for you. You feel everything Wil writes is about Wil, and I see something deeper than that.
I will not bother doing a literary analysis to prove that Wil is speaking to more than Wil. You would disagree with it, because you have already made up your mind. Suffice it to say that while I respect your opinion, I disagree with it. Perhaps my own opinion will change when I read the much derided Issue 119 article, which I haven't seen yet.
Honestly, if his writing is so damn golden than post it up monthly on this website. I don't pay for this website and I don't have to click on it if I don't want to. It saves Dungeon some money on pages which they can put toward things I actually WANT to buy (like Critical Threats, Maps of Mystery, or ANYTHING else)! Meanwhile though the argument seems to be evenly split and those of us who keep feeling shafted by Dungeon's attempts to connect back with its older readers just makes it more likely that we will just stop buying the darn product.
Sean -
Actually, by buying any of paizo's products (including Dungeon) you are paying for the website, so your argument is kinda hollow there. Dungeon attempts to connect with older readers because we are a core constituency. That doesn't mean younger readers are not also a core constituency, it just means that sometimes they have to appeal to the old fogies too. Dungeon is a good deal, even at the $7 it costs an issue now. But the fact of the matter is, every page of every issue is not going to be of interest to every reader. Take Maps of Mystery - as a rule, I hate that feature (not always, but usually). I don't expect them to eliminate it, because I know Dungeon has readers like you that do like it. On the same token, I want to make sure paizo is aware that there are readers, like me, who want Wil Save to stay, at least for the time being.
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The problem is they HAVE eliminated Maps of Mystery and as far as I can tell Critical Threats. I really would not mind Wil Save nearly as much as I do if the features that I actually used were still there. But this feature that is meant to appeal to one core constituency as you call it has REPLACED one that appealed to another. You can see where the problem lay eh?
The problem is they HAVE eliminated Maps of Mystery and as far as I can tell Critical Threats. I really would not mind Wil Save nearly as much as I do if the features that I actually used were still there. But this feature that is meant to appeal to one core constituency as you call it has REPLACED one that appealed to another. You can see where the problem lay eh?
Perhaps Erik can speak to that... though I was under the impression that Critical Threats was still a feature (though perhaps not in every issue). As for Maps of Mystery, I can't say I'm sorry to see it go, though I can understand that you are. Perhaps they could alternate?
Creative Director
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Wil Save hasn't "replaced" any of Dungeon's regular contents, so that shouldnt' be a concern.
Critical Threats are sporadic lately, and we hope to start running them with a little more reglarity in the future, but they're still very much a part of the magazine. Issue 118 (January 2005) contained Larsa Essinel, for example, so they're still around.
As for Maps of Mystery, we're keen on bringing them back in the future. Still, there's nothing to say that you can't use any of the maps from the 3 adventures in each issue as "Maps of Mystery." In fact, maps are pretty much the easiest thing to "steal" from an adventure, regardless of its level or setting, for your home games.
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First and foremost James, I was VERY happy to see Larsa Essinel in issue 118. It was very well written, illustrated and laid out. That’s why I was so extremely disappointed to see issue 119 lacking a "Critical Threats" section. So don't get me wrong, I appreciate many parts of the magazine. Issue 118 was an awesome one!
Now lets return to your reply. You say that you’re trying to bring back "Critical Threats" and "Maps of Mystery", and I'm glad to hear that. I actually do believe that "Critical Threats" of the quality of Larsa Essinel are hard to make, and I can grudgingly admit that maybe they should only appear every other issue as long as the quality remains so high. However, you have to realize why it looks like "Wil Save" has replaced these features. Wil's article started appearing with the format shift that occurred in #114. Amongst other minor and major changes we saw the addition of "Wil Save" and the removal of "Maps of Mystery". By the next issue "Critical Threats" was also gone. While I'm sure that "Wil Save" was never intended to replace these features by you guys, their continued sporadic inclusion (Critical Threats) or flat out absence (Maps of Mystery) from the magazine along with the fact that Wil seems so deeply entrenched on that last page makes me feel that it did.
Finally, you ask us to use the maps from the 3 current adventures in each issue. That’s a grand idea; unfortunately it’s something I did BEFORE "Maps of Mystery" was removed. Maps are right up there with pre-generated NPCs as useful things to just take right out of the modules. In the old days we could take these things out of the adventures AND out of "Critical Threats" and "Maps of Mystery". However, now we only have those three adventures. I also get the feeling that you guys intend to pull another issue 112 soon, where only one adventure dominates the magazine. Therefore what you’re asking of us is to just accept that we are going to get less maps/NPCs for our buck and more Wil, and until this is no longer the case we are not likely to get over it.
Thank you, Samantha. I couldn't have said it any better, myself. Now, let's hope a few other people start paying attention.
Samantha,
They're making the magazine for all of us, not just you. You're very insistent on removing Wil Save and replacing it with a Map of Mystery. Personally, I would have no use for a Map of Mystery. None. It would be a wasted page in the magazine for me. I think there are problems with Wil Save, but I much prefer having a flawed Wil Save to a completely useless Map of Mystery.
Wil Save at least provides some entertainment, even when Wil does get pompous and self-indulgent. A Map of Mystery isn't something I'll use in my games (with possible rare exceptions) and it's not exactly entertaining to look at. I have no use whatsoever for it, and I hope that they don't waste space in the magazine with such an irrelevant piece of nonsense in the future. If I ever do see it (or any of the other features that I have no use for), I think I'll start a thread loudly proclaiming the feature's uselessness and deride the creator and creation both, and refuse to budge an inch when others disagree with me.
Everyone pissed at me now? ;-)
OK, I was deliberately being overly-harsh. I recognise that some people do find value in Maps of Mystery, and while I may gain nothing from that feature, I understand that others do. So I don't mind it being in there, even though I personally have no use for it, and I'm certainly not going to complain about a page or two of content that I have no use for in a magazine that's mostly wonderful. I've registered my dislike, and now I can leave it at that.
Could you perhaps extend the same courtesy to those of us who do enjoy Wil Save?
Samantha - I wasn't trying to be patronizing, and if I came across that way, I'm sorry. As for a literary analysis, I've never read one that would make me sing the praises of an author, so I'm not so naive as to think it would make you change your mind. But I didn't say it would. I said I could write one that would show that Wil Wheaton is speaking to more than just Wil.
As for making my point, I don't need to make it any more clearly than I already have - the magazine is written to an audience, not a person, and so it must appeal to a broad base. I have acknowledged that there are parts of the magazine I don't like, but wouldn't ask to be removed, because I know there are people out there, in that audience (like you) who like features such as Map of Mystery. You have failed to have that respect for me. Your last post explicitly asks James to actively work to remove the article.
I can only hope he is reading my posts too.
Otter -
Thank you. It's nice to see I'm not the only one.
Your last post explicitly asks James to actively work to remove the article.
I can only hope he is reading my posts too.
I have a feeling the article isn't going anyplace anytime soon. ;)
I don't think I would want to get on your bad side, Samantha. LOL. Look out, boys, strong woman coming through.
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The Paizo staff have repeatedly mentioned articles have failed to appear as promised because of the "bumped-for-space" monster. My request is not to eliminate Wil Save (well, okay, that is my request, but failing that) but rather to put Wil Save at the bottom of the priority pile - if something needs to be bumped, that should be number one.
sheesh. even I'm getting worn out here.
Uh, yeah... No, I would not recommend getting on Samantha's bad side either!
I'm still really surprised that so many of you "I Hate Wil Save People" have such an objection to literary or insight based articles. Don't you get enough DC's, Stats, NPC's, and Maps of Mystery (whatever those are good for...) everywhere else you look in this hobby??? If we need anything in this hobby, it's more connectedness and emotion, not more 'crunchy' rules and statistics.
Get over yourselves. Move on.
(Thank you for your service, ASEO, but frankly I find your cold aloofness to be droll and humorless. I do note that your opinions, are welcomed by this forum, however, and that you have generated a discussion with considerable longevity and participation. If you're not too good for us, you might think about going to a Con someday - you never know what you may discover there, or what new friendships you might form).
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This message brought to you by the SAVE WILL SAVE! committee.
I don't think I would want to get on your bad side, Samantha. LOL. Look out, boys, strong woman coming through.
Or someone who needs to get a life!
Anyone who wears that much hate on their sleeve over one person who they don't even know. Anyone who spends that much time writing a treatise to get rid of one single little article in the back of a magazine that harms no one. Well, this person really should think about re-examining their life.
"Erik, James, Lisa. Its time to send Wil home to momma and put Wil Save is the trash heap of dumb marketing ideas that sounded good at the time. You are known by the company you keep. However much fun the Wil Save controversy may be in generating posts, if you look at Wil Save and Wil Wheaton, you will, I believe, find someone with whom you do not want Paizo's name associated. You can find a better mascot (note Wil Save's constant mention on the cover of Dungeon).
Please. Get rid of Wil Save.
Oh my God! You would think by this statement the Wil is down in the Arctic clubbing baby seals and eating them raw! Please, get over yourself.
It has nothing to do with respecting you or disrespecting you.
You are, however, completely disparaging the opinions of those of us who see a potential in Wil Save. You've clearly implied that anyone who disagrees with you is a fool incapable of seeing the true uselessness of the article, blinded by our absurd devotion to Our Fearless Leader.
Like I said before, I could start a thread going on and on about how much *I* hate Maps of Mystery and how they're utterly useless, and making derogatory comments about the arses who create such utter crap. That's an option open to me. However, I wouldn't do that. First, I'm not a complete git, so I'm not going to insult people about whom I know virtually nothing, nor would I spew such venom upon their work simply because *I* don't like it. Second, I'm capable of recognising that there are people who actually do find value in that feature -- which means that it's only valueless in relation to me, while still maintaining real value in the overall sense. I would consider starting a thread asking if anyone else had no use for Maps of Mystery, indicating my distaste for the feature and my preference that they not clutter the magazine, but I wouldn't go so far as to level personal insults on the creators and indirect insults at those who do enjoy the article.
I do happen to agree that Wil needs to focus on gaming rather than on himself, but overall I still enjoy his article. Even when it's annoying, I find it OK. It has the potential to be amazing, and I hope Wil adapts his style to suit that, and I suspect that Paizo's hoping to continue the article long enough for Wil to settle into the role and live up to his potential. I understand that you disagree with that position, and I can even understand why you disagree; luckily, we're both entitled to our opinions. We've also both voiced our opinions and our reasoning behind those opinions. Anything further seems pointless, as you're not going to convince me to hate Wil Save, and I'm not going to convince you to enjoy it. Why don't we leave it up to Paizo now? I think they got your message. They may or may not do what you've told them to do, but I'm pretty sure they've heard you. ;-)
Or would you prefer that any time I see an article I don't have a use for, I come to the message boards and insult the article and its creator? ASEO at least provided an alternative demonstrating a better approach to the same idea; all you've done is insult Wil Save. I could certainly return the favour regarding whatever your favourite feature is, but that would be pointless and irritating.
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You are, however, completely disparaging the opinions of those of us who see a potential in Wil Save. You've clearly implied that anyone who disagrees with you is a fool incapable of seeing the true uselessness of the article, blinded by our absurd devotion to Our Fearless Leader.
If I were QSamantha I would be offended that you were deliberately twisting her words and building a straw man argument. I disagree with you. I don't think you are a fool because of your high opinion of Wil Save, but I think getting our opinion across to the staff at Paizo is also important. I also believe that those of us who would like to see Wil Save pulled have a good argument. More on that later.
Like I said before, I could start a thread going on and on about how much *I* hate Maps of Mystery and how they're utterly useless, and making derogatory comments about the arses who create such utter crap. That's an option open to me. However, I wouldn't do that. First, I'm not a complete git, so I'm not going to insult people about whom I know virtually nothing, nor would I spew such venom upon their work simply because *I* don't like it.
If you have such strong opinions, you should certainly put them out to be discussed. It is possible that those of us who would prefer to see Wil Save eliminated are a minority. However, that cannot be determined without honest and open discussion. If you disliked Maps of Mystery because you felt that they were poorly done (say, hand drawn in black-and-white on blue graph paper) and served no function, you would be in a position comprable to those of us who dislike Wil Save. Judging the relative quality of work is not easy, and it is possible that bias is revealed. However, I routinely mention other aspects of the magazine that I dislike. Customer feedback is the most useful way to improve existing product. Discovering what subscribers like and dislike seems to be important to the Paizo staff. I recognize that it can sound like we're simply whining or complaining, but that is simply not the case. We'd like the magazine to reflect our likes and dislikes. We may be a diverse community, and it may be impossible to please all of us all of the time. However, Paizo has shown that they're willing to do their best to satisfy as many of us as possible. Trying to help them by revealing our likes and dislikes does not have to descend into personal attacks.
Second, I'm capable of recognising that there are people who actually do find value in that feature -- which means that it's only valueless in relation to me, while still maintaining real value in the overall sense.
Your opinions are as valid and important as any of the rest of us. You should not discount your opinion because it has value for others. If it is only useful to 50% of the audience, it would be wonderful if it is replaced with a feature that is replaced by 90% of the readership. This is not really an issue of saying Wil Save has no value. It has more to do with the strong belief that a BETTER feature could be put into its place.
I would consider starting a thread asking if anyone else had no use for Maps of Mystery, indicating my distaste for the feature and my preference that they not clutter the magazine, but I wouldn't go so far as to level personal insults on the creators and indirect insults at those who do enjoy the article.
If you choose to interpret any diagreement as an indirect insult, I can't help you. I think that generally the tone of this conversation has been civil. Wil Wheaton may be a great guy - none of us know him personally. However, we can say that we don't enjoy his artistic output without attacking his character. We're entitled to preferences, and we're also entitled to express those preferences. If you disagree with our preference, you're entitled to make that clear.
I do happen to agree that Wil needs to focus on gaming rather than on himself, but overall I still enjoy his article. Even when it's annoying, I find it OK. It has the potential to be amazing, and I hope Wil adapts his style to suit that, and I suspect that Paizo's hoping to continue the article long enough for Wil to settle into the role and live up to his potential.
You indicate here that you share our criticism, but it hasn't crossed your tolerance level yet. That may change. How long do you think is a reasonable amount of time for Wil to improve the quality of the article? Three more months? After that point are we allowed to voice our dissatisfaction?
I understand that you disagree with that position, and I can even understand why you disagree; luckily, we're both entitled to our opinions. We've also both voiced our opinions and our reasoning behind those opinions. Anything further seems pointless, as you're not going to convince me to hate Wil Save, and I'm not going to convince you to enjoy it. Why don't we leave it up to Paizo now? I think they got your message. They may or may not do what you've told them to do, but I'm pretty sure they've heard you. ;-)
I'm not convinced that they've heard us. Even if they have, they may not have fully understood our reasoning, or yours. Making it as clear as possible can only serve to benefit both sides of our debate. To that end it is best if we can voice an objection, and you can address that objection. So far we have been talking at each other, but we haven't made any headway. Essentially, a number of criticisms have been levelled at Wil Save. Most have been ignored and the chorus has been "it isn't that bad". That is where I disagree, and I think finding a place where we could agree would be great. Even if it is only determining how much of the readership needs to dislike a feature before it should be discontinued.
Or would you prefer that any time I see an article I don't have a use for, I come to the message boards and insult the article and its creator? ASEO at least provided an alternative demonstrating a better approach to the same idea; all you've done is insult Wil Save. I could certainly return the favour regarding whatever your favourite feature is, but that would be pointless and irritating.
I would prefer that anytime you see an article you don't like you let the Paizo staff know. As a subscriber, your opinion matters. Likewise, when you like something, you should let them know. We know that not everyone will reveal everything they like and the things disliked are more likely to incite action. Perhaps the Silent Majority does support Wil Save. What then are the rights of the Vocal Minority? Must we bear with it? I'd rather at least register my discontent.
Is Wil Save your favorite feature? Would you subscribe to the magazine for that exclusively? My favorite feature are the adventures. I'm pretty convinced that nearly all subscribers agree with me on that point. Because I subscribe to the magazine for adventures, I'm willing to give them a good amount of leeway. I might not be able to use most of them, but I try to take something from them. That is the case with most features of the magazine. Wil Save has nothing for me, so I'd prefer if it were replaced with something I had SOME hope of finding useful or even entertaining. It might be something wrong with me, but I don't find it entertaining. Perhaps we can collectively come up with the next "big idea". What if Wil Save were going to be replaced? What should go in the magazine instead?
Poor old Wil! The guy didn't cut it in T.V. and now he is getting chewed out over his magazine article. I admit I don't like his article and probably never will, but I am amazed at the controversy it is stirring. I don't know if people's emotions are flaring more at each other than over the article itself. When Roxlimn and I went head to head, I could not believe how strongly he felt about the article but I soon realized he was more angry at me than me bashing Wil. Thus it starts a flame war instead of two mature people debating objectively.
Although I agree with alot with Samantha is saying, I think she is using whatever connection in the past she had with Erik and the Dungeon staff to somehow promote her viewpoint and give it credence. By doing that she is placing her viewpoint above everyone else's on this board. Although I certainly don't like Wil's article, I can't approve of Samantha's methods. I do realize there are other people on this board who approve Wil's article and kudos to them for defending him. Samantha stepped on toes with her haughtiness and she deserves all the flame she gets.
How about some feedback from the Dungeon staff on all this?
DeadDMWalking, I suggest you go back and read Samantha's posts more carefully. And I quote:
"This guy is pathetic... The more I discover about Wil Save's author the more I am convinced of what an embarrassment he is to gamers, Dungeon, and Paizo if they are not paying attention."
You can't say that isn't a personal insult to Wil Wheaton.
"LOL! I was unaware that this was an academic conversation with no basis in reality. Of course, I would like to see Wil Save retired. I don't like it. Do you honestly think that everyone who has groused about Wil Save wants to see it stay or has no opinion on the matter? Please. The natural consequence of the criticism Wil Save has received is either Wil Save improves or it is retired. I just said it plainly."
I sure read that paragraph as being insulting... Probably because she clearly intended it that way. Probably not in a mortal-offense sort of way, but in a petty, spiteful way. The caliber and nature of her comments regarding Wil Wheaton back up the interpretation that Samantha likes to go for the cheap jabs, at least in this thread.
I'm not going to say that this is how Samantha normally acts. She could easily be a tremendous, amazing person who's just having a bad day. We all have those, and it's entirely understandable. Some of the best people I've met have also been capable of the most unreasonable bouts of pettiness. But in this thread, she's acted like a self-centered git, with enough writing talent to make her comments that much more vicious without being so obvious as to be crass. I certainly applaud her for that.
As for your complaints being heard: Yes, of course they've heard. But the fact of the matter is that vastly more people have said that they would like Wil Save to stay than have said that they would like it cut from the magazine (49 to 12 or something on these message boards -- check the Wil Save Part Deux thread). Paizo really is listening, it's just that they're listening to the majority. It's also worth keeping in mind that people who *really* dislike Wil Save are a lot more likely to speak up than those who enjoy the article, so while this thread makes it look like the "Give Wil the boot" camp has a lot of support, you guys really are pretty much it.
Now, while I'm pretty viciously defending Wil Save at the moment, you're absolutely right that I have a limit. At the moment, I'm willing to wait six more issues to see if he starts producing the kind of work that I'm sure he can. If it hasn't improved by that point, I'll join the chorus saying, "Nope, didn't work out, find a replacement." I do want the articles to be more relevant to gaming, and less "Hey look at me, I'm Wil Wheaton!" We just disagree on how annoying the current incarnation is... You, Samantha, Taricus, ASEO, and others obviously can't stand it, while I still find the entertainment value in it.
Oh, and while I didn't finally subscribe to the magazine just because of Wil Save, it definitely was the straw that broke the camel's back. Not because the article was all that amazing but because I liked the direction it seemed to indicate for the magazine. Overall I'm quite happy with my decision and with the magazine, even if Wil Save itself has gone downhill. :-) And I'll agree that the article seems to be going downhill rather than uphill so far.
Well Samantha, I don't see anyone else here directly speaking to the Dungeon staff to impose their will. You have got to realize their are other people on this board who also have an opinion and that the Dungeon staff should heed their comments as well. Why should they listen to you specifically? Why not someone else who gives back rubs to Erik be able to request such an offer? As regards to your promiscuity whith Erik and the Dungeon Staff that is your business. I really don't care to hear about it. As regards to your influence, it doen't seem to be holding much water on this board. A lot of negative feedback coming through loud and clear; listen? I even disliked Wil's article but your negative attitude is enough to turn anyone pro-Wil.
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Alright, I'll make my concession statement and bow out of this argument because it is about 3 posts from going down the tubes in a flaming mess. As I stated waaaaaay back when this thread first began, "I personally find no value in Wil Save myself, but I'm not terribly angry at it nor do I care for it that much." I made that statement before I realized that Maps of Mystery and Critical Threats had been sacked. My former statement is still true. I honestly don't hate Wil Save. My hostility comes from the loss of my favorite features to what appears to be a feature aimed at completely away from me. So here is what I propose:
-If its a space issue then leave Wil Save/Critical Threats/Maps of Mystery in the magazine and put the rest online. If the staff is really into Wil, than just give us who want our old features a bone and put the stuff it bumps online. I think a lot of people will be satisfied that way (at least those who don't hate Wil cause he is Wil).
Thanks for listening.
*bows out*
<<snipped to save space...>>
Fnord.Samantha "Alice" Quest
Holy cow! The hip-deep sarcasm! The scathing wit. The sardonic sense of humor.
I think I'm in love!
:D
Not shirking, just waiting for the next installment so I'll have new material to work with. Then again, the only new thing about the column will most likely be the number affixed to the heading.
No, I take that back. The column has indeed been changing, but for the worse. Who knows, if we're lucky, maybe next week we'll get backstage glimpse of The Next Generation and Wesley's first experience with Romulan ale.
Can't wait.
I think I hear the upcoming squeal of breaks and the unavoidable wreckage of a column that I'll be drawn to only out of morbid curiosity and the belief that after the continual downward spiral, Wil Save can't sink any deeper.
I just hope that Wil doesn't turn the topic to how when he DMs he rewrites a Star Trek episode into a D&D adventure...Hmmm lets see, the Vulcans are elves, the Klingons are half-orcs,...now, what to make the Humans?...and if he ever mentions Drizzt or Tasselhoff(sp?) I swear I'll hurl.
The same goes for his "I drink Sam Adams, Play poker in vegas with millionares, and smoke smuggled cuban cigars while driving my Hummer to Hooters where the waitresses can't get enough of me."
Dude.
Any word on the lickable hallucinogenic ink for his page?
Greg V (Subscriber), Yesterday, 04:50 PM
"P.S. ASEO -
"Area of Service Excludes Oklahoma" (kinda' like the fine print on my cell phone contract)"
Ha ha ha...I've actually been living here in OK for a while now.
"Wil Save is DUNGEON's Jar-jar Binks"
ASEO out
ok i was a big supporter of will save i like the article and i think it gives some charater to the magazine. HOWEVER this last one sucked all he was doing was companing about how starttrek ruined his life when it was the only thing that has brought him fam and money if he keeps this kind of article going i'm going to have to join the rest of you in condeming the article.
Wil Speaks on his page:
"I want to add something to this entry, mostly for myself, so I don't miss out on a great lesson: I was talking with Anne about Weslsy Crusher few days ago. I told her that I'm really tired of feeling like I still have to defend Wesley (and myself) to people from time to time. Perfect example: when my column in Dungeon was announced, a lot of people started complaining about me writing for the magazine. Did they talk about the quality of my writing? Did they try to find out what my credentials as a gamer were? Of course not. They just b!+@!ed and complained that "Wesley" was writing anything.
How incredibly stupid is that? How incredibly stupid is it that it really upset me? I have -- more or less -- come to terms with Wesley Crusher and what he means to me . . . and I am so over dealing with jerks who are holding on to some stupid problem they had with a character I played eighteen years ago."
And I think he is still missing the point. One, he is writing about himself, and not the game. And Two, he could be Bernard Cornwell (look him up for some great adventures) writing, and since his page has no game impact I'd still say get it out of DUNGEON. His nobody likes me because of Wesley Crusher cop-out (which he brought up quite painfully in on one of his pages in DUNGEON) really irks me.
Now, I hear he may write about his playing of a Bard who was killed in in a True Dungeon tournament at some So-Cal convention...as long as he is not whining about "3rd level sucks", and "my character got killed," and "everyone should get to play in a DV gaming event like I did." Then his page may be worthy of DRAGON, or a space on the Web, but unless it has game impact I can say nothing but keep it out of DUNGEON.
Wil Save is DUNGEON's Jar-jar Binks.
ASEO out
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And I think he is still missing the point. One, he is writing about himself, and not about the game...
He isn´t missing at all. Read QSamantha´s Post : she dislikes the person rather than this column. And she´s been offending the person, not the column. And he has all right in the world to be annoyed by such childish behaviour.
Second, he is writing about himself as a gamer. Like it or not, but that means writing about the game itself. It´s on you to decide if this column has game impact or not. But for some people it actually has, since it helps them to take this game as what it is : just a game.Wil Save is DUNGEON's Jar Jar Binks.
I cannot help but thinking the same about your posts. How many time did it cost you to write all your posts in this thread? Quite a lot, I think. And that all to complain about ONE page of a magazine which didn´t even was published as a substitute for some of your holy game-related stuff? In Wil Wheaton's words : "How incredibly stupid is that?"
Hope I didn´t offend your highness to much being just the poor fun player I am.
Wormy out
And I think he is still missing the point. One, he is writing about himself, and not about the game...He isn´t missing at all. Read QSamantha´s Post : she dislikes the person rather than this column. And she´s been offending the person, not the column. And he has all right in the world to be annoyed by such childish behaviour.
Second, he is writing about himself as a gamer. Like it or not, but that means writing about the game itself. It´s on you to decide if this column has game impact or not. But for some people it actually has, since it helps them to take this game as what it is : just a game.Wil Save is a perfect page for DRAGON Magazine or a Web page. DUNGEON is about adventures and running adventures. If it doesn't have to do with adventures then it should go somewhere else. The sme is true for the Comics, Mt Zargon and Downer which I like have at least given me some ideas that I've used in games, but the other but the other comic with the stupid goblin thing blows. Still, like them or not they and Wil Save don't belong in Dungeon. Now the old Nodwic comics that related to the adventures...those rocked.
Wil Save is DUNGEON's Jar Jar Binks.I cannot help but thinking the same about your posts. How many time did it cost you to write all your posts in this thread? Quite a lot, I think. And that all to complain about ONE page of a magazine which didn´t even was published as a substitute for some of your holy game-related stuff? In Wil Wheaton's words : "How...
Calling it Jar-jar hit a nerve didn't it? Truth hurts.
Why DUNGEON? There is a reason I post on this web page and write counter articles here. You can skip this thread, and you don't pay to bring it into your house unless you want to.Wil Save is like some stupid rider that one political party has attached to the bill proposed by the other party. If you want to take the Crunch of the adventures, you have mushy sludge of Wil Save.
I'd like anyone to tell me how they used something from Wil save in a game? I see it as Fluff. And if it is just an extra page...Then I'd rather have something else on my extra page. If you want Wil Save...I mean really want Wil Save...Really really want Wil Save,..and buy DUNGEON just for Wil Save... have it put on a web page where you can get it for free. For my $.18 per page, or whatever it comes out as, I'd rather have:
1. Alternative NPC versions to make an Adventure Eberron, or Psionic, etc...
2. Map of Mystery
3. New Magic Item
4. New Spell
5. New Monster
6. Side Trek
7. Critical Threat
8. To-scale tactical map of an encounter area
9. Additional Art to support one of the adventures
10. Threat tokins...10x10 pit, green slime, ice, mud, ect... Copy and cut type things.
DUNGEON could do so much better than Wil Save, and be better for dropping it.
To keep Wil Save because of my #1 most popular thread (had to get that in) blows.
Wil Save is DUNGEON's Jar-jar Binks
ASEO out
As much as people talk about wanting Dungeon to drop the Wil save article, I truly don't think we are going to see the end of it anytime soon...strictly because the magazine is making money off of it.
Some people are buying the magazine and subscriptions strictly because of the article. And I don't know about anyone else, but I don't plan on canceling my subscription just because there is a fluff article in there. Dungeon is in a win-win sistuation...we all complain about a useless article in the magazine, but still buy it, and they get new subscribers.
As long as the money that Dungeon gets in from the increased sales of the magazine is greater than what they pay Mr.Wheaton...I think we are stuck with the article.
Hi, folks.
I'm not responding to anyone in particular, but this is just a reminder to steer clear of personal attacks.
This thread has a great healthy debate going. That's a good thing. Let's just keep the focus on the topic and try to avoid a flame war over conflicting personalities. : ]
You all rock.
Many thanks,
- Rob
"Be excellent to each other."
- Bill and Ted
I understand what you're trying to say, but it becomes harder and harder to avoid commenting on Wil Wheaton the person when the column's author puts so much of his personal life on the front burner for all to see. Frankly, I would be persuaded to avoid personal comments if Wil didn't invite these kinds of responses in the first place.
When you comment about all the crap you've received from disgruntled gamers who never liked your t.v. personality, how is that not inviting criticism upon yourself? When you whine about how hard it is to "fit in" because you're some famous t.v. star (at least in your own mind), how is that not painting a bullseye on your forehead? When you try to pass yourself off as one of the guys while at the same time reminding people of how unique you are beacuse of your fame, how does that NOT attract the ire of those reading the column?
These are some things to think about when considering the responses to Wil Save.
All in all, it's a bad column, folks, and it's only getting worse. If Wil doesn't like the feedback he's getting now, just wait til we're knee-deep in his articles. I said before that I could weather the nonsense Wil is putting in his column, but now I'm starting to reconsider.
But then, who knows, maybe he'll put something really useful in there that we could all benefit from...
like how to speak Klingon while gaming.
So, um... is this the right place for me to confess that I like Jar Jar Binks. :blush:
So, um... is this the right place for me to confess that I like Jar Jar Binks. :blush:
LOL..That is something that should never be confessed.
That being said, so does my 6 year-old nephew. And that is the point. Like Jar-Jar, Wil Save was added without any reader say. And like Jar-jar it is a pet of the Editor (in Jar-jar's case the director). Newbies love it, and purists find it vile.
Do I use every adventure in every issue of DUNGEON? No, but I could if I wanted to.
So why was this non game impact page put into DUNGEON and not DRAGON where even members of the DUNGEON Staff have stated that it would be better placed?
Some things that Wil could write that I'd accept would be ideas from his gameing career that could help players and DMs out. Like "The fun of a no magic campaign" or "the Pros and cons Alternative playing surfaces that he has encountered in his many years of gaming".
Appearing with the first Wil Save page and still running have been actual articles that provided something for the game...100 things to find in a Graveyard, begining and running a campaign. That sort of stuff is fine by me. But self glorification (I'm mildly famous, I drink expensive beer, I play poker with my millionaire friends in Vegas)with the bairest mention of gaming, and usually a negative overly steriotypical representation of gaming (I won't share my dice with my own kids, 1st level sucks, I make random D&D comments in public) that squirts lemon juice in the festering dork image of D&D just Ts me off.
Wolfstalker wrote:
"Some people are buying the magazine and subscriptions strictly because of the article."
BS. And if they are actually forking out $8 for a single page, then I'd offer to allow them to pay for my subscription, I'll quit commenting on the failures of Wil Save, and scan that page and email it to them so they can read it.
Any takers?
I didn't think so.
You've got to have something positive and helpful to say if you want me to like it.
I've tried to give some suggestions on how Wil Save could be improved...but hey, I'm just 1 loyal DUNGEON reader.
Wil Save is DUNGEON's Jar-jar Binks
ASEO out
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To be honest, I don´t read the Dungeon Magazine to get any ideas as far as adventures are concerned. I adopted some ideas to my own campaigns, but most of the time I read it as pure entertainment (Fluff, so to say^^). And even if I wanted to, I hadn´t the time to include all of the stuff, so I don´t see the point in arguing about one (additional) page full of entertainment (at least for me it is entertaining).
Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to critizise anything about the Dungeon Mag. I like it exactly as it is. But I´m able to create my campaigns myself (including events, NPCs, Items, Spells and so on ). It´s interesting (and entertaining ) to learn about other´s people styles of storytelling, but if I need ideas to flesh out my NPCs, a look into reality is enough (yep, ASEO, even you might make it in one of my campaigns eventually :) ).
As far as I can see, Wil Wheaton did not complain about critics who would like to see more "game-related" stuff instead of his article. If he ever does, I´m the first to defend those critics.
What he is complaining about are those people offending him because of the person he is and because of a role he played a long,long time ago. And he has all right to do so cause it´s Wil Wheaton writing this column, not Wesley Crusher.
So, ASEO, if I placed you in the wrong category, i´ve to take some words back. But nonetheless you won´t convince me to call this column useless because it simply is not.
(yep, ASEO, even you might make it in one of my campaigns eventually :) ).
Oh oh oh. Make me the Lawful neutral Guard captain who is the bane of the heroes who are forced to break the town laws to acomplish their mission and run foul of me because of it. "I'm just doing my job. You broke the law, and now you'll hang...nothing personal."
I love antaganists that aren't evil. Nothing like pitting a good party against an order of Paladins...Maybe in game moral issues will be my next "what Wil Save could have been". unless Wil beats me to it and does it right.
A
So, ASEO, if I placed you in the wrong category, i´ve to take some words back. But nonetheless you won´t convince me to call this column useless because it simply is not.
Hey, I've got nothing against Wil Wheaton. I thought he was great as the fourth kid in "Stand By Me". I just found this forum the best place to comment on the one thing that DUNGEON has done since its begining to really upset me. With such a great track record, Wil Save was quite a sucker punch.
Wil Save is DUNGEON's Jar-jar Binks
ASEO out
So, um... is this the right place for me to confess that I like Jar Jar Binks. :blush:LOL..That is something that should never be confessed.
That being said, so does my 6 year-old nephew. And that is the point. Like Jar-Jar, Wil Save was added without any reader say. And like Jar-jar it is a pet of the Editor (in Jar-jar's case the director). Newbies love it, and purists find it vile.
Except I'm not a "newbie" to Star Wars. I saw Episode IV when it still didn't have that stupid "Episode IV" in the title, back when it was first released in the theatres. In fact, it just might have been the first movie I ever saw that wasn't rated G. I had all the action figures and play sets and ships when I was a kid growing up.
In addition, I'm not a "newbie" to D&D either (though I am to Dungeon, having just subscribed for the first time in August). I've been playing D&D since 1980.
In both cases, I would consider myself a "seasoned vet." And in both cases, I just can't understand the vitriol aimed at the target.
Aseo - I give you credit for at least offering solutions to improve the column. There's nothing wrong with criticism when it's offered constructively. When the criticism turns to attacks, though, perhaps it's time to step back and re-evaluate your goals.
Except I'm not a "newbie" to Star Wars. I saw Episode IV when it still didn't have that stupid "Episode IV" in the title, back when it was first released in the theatres. In fact, it just might have been the first movie I ever saw that wasn't rated G. I had all the action figures and play sets and ships when I was a kid growing up.In addition, I'm not a "newbie" to D&D either (though I am to Dungeon, having just subscribed for the first time in August). I've been playing D&D since 1980.
In both cases, I would consider myself a "seasoned...
Jar-jar was a total distraction to the movie, his character had no impact other than to be a weak comical character in a movie that should not have been a comedy. and don't get me started on the pod race announcers...But this is not a Star Wars board, so enough said.
I can see how seasoned D&D players might be drawn to Wil Save as they are often drawn to comments by other people (Gygax, et all), but until now those pages have been properly placed in DRAGON along with short stories. As a DUNGEON newbie, Wil Save may not seem out of place, but if you look at the last 10 years of DUNGEON you will see it sticks out like a computer animated character laying waste to one of the greatest film famlies of all time for no good reason other than the director's choice. Heck even Steven Spielberg (sp?) said "I love the movie! lose Jar-jar."
Why DUNGEON? (I'd actually like to hear from Eric on this), and really hope the answer is not "We wanted to water down the game content of this great magazine." of cource I'm sure it will be much more politically correct in its wording. After all, aren't store baught cupcakes better if they have that fluffy three-inch high blue iceing?
Are short stories next?
Wil Save is DUNGEON's Jar-jar Binks.
ASEO out