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I've been playing D&D since '78,and have DUNGEON Magazines back to Issue #1. Wil Save was the first thing I've seen in Dungeon that had no game value. Even the comics have provided game ideas.
I hate to dis someone's life, but I'd rather have a Map of Mystery or something that I can use in the game. Wil Save just left me thinking "And I care, why?".
Is there some value in Wil Save that I'm missing.
Thoughts?
ASEO out
I may be the only one, based on the posts I've seen, but I really didn't mind the Wil Save article. I'm introducing my daughter to the game now (she loves being a druid), and I liked how he described his approach to teaching his stepsons about the game. I'm willing to see where the column goes.
Based on his first column, I'd say Wil can write. I enjoyed it, even though it didn't add anything to my game. I hope the future columns will be more game related. But I'm willing to give this column time because A)it is new and needs to time to find its raison d'etre & B) the man can write. It is a very well written column.
I got kinda teary. Probably cause I'm a girl. I liked it!
I haven't seen the new issue yet as I am still waiting on my issue (that has already been addressed in a nother section of the message board).
However, based on the last one I thought that the article was well written and descriptive of teaching younger kids the fine nuances of D&D. How did you learn not to touch another persons dice. Or not to let the DM touch your dice as the 'mojo' would be drained? The article went beyond mere gaming and looked at gaming in the real world and how it impacts life from one person's point of view.
I know after last month's revamp I eagerly await the next issue. This eagerness is on many levels but one aspect is the humanistic approach of Wil's article towards gaming...but that is me...:)
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I thought Wil's column was of great interest to gamers. Not every single word need be about: "running the game" or "how to game". It is enough if it touches and concerns "gaming". And Wil's column certainly did that.
I thought when he was explaining/confessing why he was teaching his stepson gaming, his comment: "I want to share something with you guys that isn't sport related so your dad can't take it over and force me out of it" was painfully blunt & insightful to many of Dungeon's readers.
You've "been gaming since 1978", but that comment did not resonate somewhere within you as being relevant to some aspect of your life or the lives of others you have gamed with? Interesting. I guess I am unable to assist you in explaining how the column is relevant, but I would have thought it was self-evident.
You can simply ignore the last page of Dungeon from now on.
Me? I'll be reading it.
Like a lot of gamers, I started playing D&D in the early 80's as I entered adolescence. To this day, some of my love for the game is based on nostalgia, crazy D&D superstition, the importance of creativity over physicality, and the excitement of introducing new people to the game. Wil's article hit all four, and I thouroughly enjoyed it. I always like reading other people's experiences with the game. Given that I don't always have time to read through an entire adventure, it's great to be able to pick up the magazine and get a quick fix, usually by reading the editorial, reader feedback, a critical threat, and now the Wil Save article.
I hope Wil Wheaton includes some of the gaming experiences he has as his children work their way through their first campaign. Although some of my players are the mental equivalent of an 8 year old, it would be interesting to see how younger folks face dilemmas.
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Well... Wil Save really has nothing to do with the ingame things, that's right! But for me D&D is more than the mere rules or articles for the game.
I like the article. Ok, I never loved Wesley Crusher in the series (he was it, or am I wrong here?), but isn't D&D as well all about the things wich happen around it, and with us?! I think happily back to the day when I had my first experience with "role-play-what"??? And I still can tell you ALL about my first encounter in a badly runned game (nobody cared about anything else than stats, and having fun)! I miss those days and I thank Wil Save for bringing me back the memory once more!
I played D&D in the early 80s, stopped playing, and now that my kids are old enough started again so they could experience the fun I had. I liked Wil's column as it hit home with me. Focused on things not related to the rules, but aspects of a DM re-learning the rules, while trying to teach young new players. D&D is about having fun and socializing with friends and this is what I liked about the column. The rules are there to facilitate this goal. One page per magazine is not too much.
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I've got to say that I liked it. Not entirely certain WHY, but nailing down the whys of it aren't really important to me.
When I picked upi the 'Warforged issue' I found myself gravitate to the back page as I hopped the El home. It's a good read. And if it's irrelevant to your game, at least Wheaton has a healthy view of the game as a whole.
Oddly, the same really can't be said for Mr. Gygax's Soapbox articles that ran in Dragon not too long ago. Every one of those was, yes, an insight into the infancy of the game we play today, but just about every one of them was tainted by his "DM Versus The Players" Dungeon Mastering mentality.
Wil seems to have a healthy balance of sanity and fanaticism for the game. A good balance. And, as Torpedo said, he's a good writer.
I like it.
Personally, I liked it. For those who didn't, remember: one article is not a trend.
However, I think that we might all start b+&+#ing about it if it turns into nothing more than mushy-feely articles about his kids and only ever so slightly meta-game in nature.
I thought when he was explaining/confessing why he was teaching his stepson gaming, his comment: "I want to share something with you guys that isn't sport related so your dad can't take it over and force me out of it" was painfully blunt & insightful to many of Dungeon's readers.
Hear hear.
Interesting thoughts. I'm willing to give it another chance...
Maybe I'm not as geeky a gamer as others. I've been playing since '78 and own 95+% of all 1st and 2ed D&D products (much to my wife's dismay), but I've never had any dice Mojo issues, and could care less who uses or touches my dice. I just thought that the Wil Save article felt contirved.
What are people's impression of the Wil Save in #115?
Just get rid of the horrible illustration style that went with the last one. It was just creepy.
ASEO out
I liked the column. *shrug* I'm certainly willing to see where the column goes from here, and how it develops.
Hear hear.
I thought when he was explaining/confessing why he was teaching his stepson gaming, his comment: "I want to share something with you guys that isn't sport related so your dad can't take it over and force me out of it" was painfully blunt & insightful to many of Dungeon's readers.
Genuine stuff. As someone running a first campaign for my daughter, I loved the column and will continue to look forward to it.
Wil Save #115
It wasn't as good as the first one. But I'm glad it is part of the magazine.
Peace and smiles :)
j.
As a stepdad, I enjoyed the article and the second one. It seems more geared for the older gamers who struggle to play or need to overcome real life obsticles to get together with the gaming buddies. I have related to each of the articles very closely. In fact, I was so in touch with what I read in the first article that even though I bought 115 for the Adventure Path, the frist thing I read was Wil Save.
Neomorte
Eh. I liked it. I'm not a dad or step-dad, but I enjoyed the column for it's entertainment value. Sense I don't run a lot of published adventure (I sort of stock pile the issues for when I need an adventure), I don't need every word of the magazine useful to my game right this minute. Therefore, a magazine that's entertaining to me when I buy it is good. (Adventures, even good ones, aren't nesesarly entertaining to read.)
OK, I read the latest Wil Save. I'll admit, that the guy talks to me. It could have easily been me that he was describing in his article. The late 20 hour sessions fuled by Pizza and Jolt...the pestering friends to play... Oh the memories...
But I'd still rather have something that contributes directly to my game. Like a Map, or new magical item, or new spells, or alternative statistics for NPCs (espically Psionic alternatives that could be subistuted in to add a bit of Psionics to a non Psionic setting), a new monster perhaps, or even a one page Side-Trek. Or maybe a map & building illustration like the ones posted at www.theforge.pl
ASEO out
When the new Dungeon shows up on my desk every month, I flip straight to the back and read Wil's column. As a gamer and parent and a career person in my 30s, I really enjoy the chance to get a peek inside someone else's thoughts that shares all of those qualities. And it’s a great read too.
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I think it adds some nice depth, and is a great way to finish off an issue. I'm not married or a mom, let alone a step-mom, but you don't have to be either to appreciate that they're well-written and touching. All I have to say is that I can't remember at all what used to be on the last page, and now it's something I look forward to. :)
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After reading the 2 Wil saves I think the "wil save" section is a nice edition to the magazine. Does it have in game play material? Nope. This is the average gamer point of view outside of the dungeon. I can related to many things Wil said about himself and his desires to share the fun and adventure with his kids. After all the stat reading and getting all the campaign info I can from my issue of dungeon, its a nice finishing touch at the end. Good Job Wil.
To Erik Mona and the rest of the Dugeuon team please keep Wil save in the magazine! It's good to read about fellow gamers outside the game.
PS- Does anyone know what happened to the kids after there first encounter? Did will slay them all?
Nothing has been said about the kids exploits. But I amy not be in the know on that one. I agree the last page is a nice finish.
Jolt and pizza and 24 hr sessions, now just trying to get one group together is a task...nice memories. Thanks, Wil
Here's my opinion on Wil Save. I have no problem with a column devoted to the personal aspects of gaming. I have no problem with Wil and think he has a nice writing style and something to say. My problem is that he has the exact same viewpoint on gaming that I do and I think most gamers have, so it really doesn't offer me anything new. So does it add something to the magazine? Yes. But wouldn't a column about gaming from an outsiders viewpoint be more interesting? I think so. Just a thought anyway.
I liked the column. *shrug* I'm certainly willing to see where the column goes from here, and how it develops.
i'm indifferent to it.
but i'm willing to see where it's going.
I have liked the column so far. The first was a bit better than the one in issue 115, but both were enjoyable.
Wow, I thought there'd be a lot more disinterest in this thread. I guess most people on these message boards found the Wil Save articles insightful and deep. And it certainly helps that Wil has a fluid writing style.
I didn't care for the first article. When I read it, I was thinking, "You've got to be kidding me. Why is this here?" Sure, Wil relates a sentimental and nostalgic experience with introducing a stepkid to the game... but why exactly do I need to read about him introducing his stepkid to the game? I understand Wil's perspective, since my stepfather took me in as his own when I was barely in grade school, and now that I'm an adult, I've learned a great deal about what it was like for him. So yeah, Wil's perspective is nice and touchy-feely, but do I think Dungeon is the place for him to express his sentimental side? Not really. I for one don't want to read about his personal hang-ups ("your real father can't take gaming away from us!") or about how he can't set a consistent gaming schedule anymore. That's life.
I'd much rather see the last page dedicated to something more useful -- a map, an ingenious trap, or an easily-dropped NPC. Maybe even extend an adventure by one page. I personally don't see any reason to pay Wil for what he's writing in these articles. Therapeutic? Maybe. Helpful? Not particularly.
While I sympathize with those who want more gaming content, I'm never going to use at least one whole adventure published in each issue of Dungeon (and that's probably being generous). As such, while Wil Save is light reading (I've only read #115), it fills the same personal interest niche for me which Monte Cook's Dungeoncraft usually does. I mean, sometimes Monte has advice I hadn't already thought about, but mostly I just like reading his stuff.
Maybe in a year or so, Wil Save will become tired and self-indulgent, but until that happens, I can live with a single page less game content each issue.
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Contributor
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Maybe in a year or so, Wil Save will become tired and self-indulgent, but until that happens, I can live with a single page less game content each issue.
Amen, Alec. There's a lot more to gaming than just new prestige classes and the latest always-excellent adventure in Dungeon.
Whether people think of it that way or not, it's a social excercise. As such, socializing becomes a major part of the hobby. Whether that socializine involves a quarter of your office and a half-hour of your day discussing something about the game (well, that happens here anyway) or just a few minute conversation with your friends as you pass through the halls to your next class, the non-gametime social interactions make this hobby virtually unique. Even these message boards are an expression of that social aspect of the game, and we understand intrinsically when we speak of "the messageboard community."
What I'm long-windedly getting at is that "Wil Save" lets us get out of the nuts-and-bolts of the game for a page--a single page--and lets us step back and appreciate the game, the hobby, and the community. It's a beautiful thing, really, and not something you get to see in other niche magazines. :)
Mike McArtor (Assistant Editor, Dragon) wrote
"What I'm long-windedly getting at is that "Wil Save" lets us get out of the nuts-and-bolts of the game for a page--a single page--and lets us step back and appreciate the game, the hobby, and the community. It's a beautiful thing, really, and not something you get to see in other niche magazines. :)"
Hey a page of Nodwick, or KoDT would do that for me, and the Nodwick comics used to relate to the published adventures so that was always entertaining. Ant there is still Downer. Which I like as the deversion. But still, if you want to relate to players gaming experiences, "Don't touch my dice"..."wan'a order another round of pizzas" then KoDt is the way to go. This whole personalized "My private life and how gaming relates to it and vice versa" is just bring me down. Pretty soon I fear I'll be reading about his low carb snaks, and his favorite music to play durring a gaming session.
Post his column on the web page. That way people who care can get all sedimental with him and they can all sing their favorite elf songs without detracting from the magazine.
I don't have anything against Wil. I just don't care.
ASEO out
Yo man, "Wesley Bashing" soooo 1993.
But it's difficult for me to get bent out of shape about the fact that you don't care about _1_ page in the entire magazine.
I don't expect you to get bent out of shape, Erik. I don't even expect you to pull the column just because I (and a few others) don't care for Wil's subject matter or his sentimental approach. Based on the rest of the feedback in this thread (some 90% positive for "Wil Save"), I certainly hope you keep the column in, if for no other reason than to keep the majority happy. After all, if you can keep the majority of your readers happy the majority of the time...
But this is a forum, and Dungeon has asked for a great amount of feedback in light of its new changes, so I think discussions like this are warranted, and I don't think being dismissive ("it's only ONE page...") is quite the way to go. ::shrugs:: We're readers, and we're responding to what we're reading. Most of us like "Wil Save," and some of us don't. I think the main reason some of us don't enjoy "Wil Save" is because the column doesn't seem to "fit" with the rest of the magazine. Dungeon's about DMing better, with more insight, with more utility. It's always seemed primarily nuts-and-bolts to me, rarely conceptual (up until recently), and more about putting things together. Reading something like "Wil Save" (and to a lesser extent, the new "Dungeoncraft" and similar articles) in Dungeon is a bit different, and it'll certainly take some time to get used to the new mix. Dungeon's a different magazine now than it was even six months ago. But the fact that "Wil Save" adds pretty much nothing to the gaming experience (other than looking at HIS gaming experience, which isn't even that interesting) makes it difficult for me to swallow.
Others have said that D&D isn't all about prestige classes and feats and spells, and I agree. I like conceptual articles when they deal specifically with enhancing the game (like "Dungeoncraft," or "The Play's the Thing," or "DM's Toolbox," or whatever), but Wil's column doesn't enhance the game, nor is it intent to do so. So reading it in a magazine geared toward helping others DM better offers very little.
I know I don't use everything that appears in an issue of Dungeon. So why would I want one more page of game material? Because the more material that gets presented within an issue, the more likely I am to find something that I can integrate into my games. I buy Dungeon for the roles it can take in my campaigns, not to read about the demise of Wil's gaming group and whether or not he's writing a background for his new character.
Just my opinion.
Creative Director
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One thing to keep in mind about Dungeon is that it's not just a monthly place to get articles that enhance the game or to get three new adventures. It's also entertainment. As it stands now, no one will ever use all the game content in every issue. I'm currently playing in six D&D campaigns (some of which are more regular than others, and two of which I DM), and I know that even in those six campaigns combined, we'd never be able to use all the material in even just a year's worth of Dungeon. There just aren't enough days in the week.
I guess what I'm trying to ask is if having a few pages of each issue devoted to something entertaining yet outside of the nuts and bolts of the D&D rules is that bad? I don't think it is at all. Wil Save, Downer, Mt. Zogon, and all the other non-game components of Dungeon serve an important purpose in the magazine. I feel that they're all great reads, and they help to remind those of us who play in a half-dozen D&D campaigns at once that there's more to the hobby (and by extension, to Dungeon) than the game. They give you a chance to come up for air now and then so you can dive back into the rules and adventrues! {/end goofy metaphor}
And all that said, I'd like to thank everyone who's come onto these messageboards and posted their thoughts. Compliments, criticisims, it's great information all around, and we're certainly listening to everything everyone has to say. The magazine's been through a lot in the last few years, and I think it's finally found its focus. In the meantime, give the new Dungeon some time to settle in and become familiar again. I bet it won't take as long as you might think...
Right. I'm not sure this post made sense, but that's what I get for checking the message boards at 2:49 AM.
One thing to keep in mind about Dungeon is that it's not just a monthly place to get articles that enhance the game or to get three new adventures. It's also entertainment.
Maybe for you. If I want entertainment I'll pop in a movie or watch a ball game on TV. I don't buy Dungeon to be "entertained" but for content and help with m DnD campaign.
As for Will Save, I don't mind. I read it and I really don't feel one way or another about it. Now I will admit to still having this huge dislike for Wesley Crusher. The character was a pretentious ass (hey. wait, we have so much in common!), but Will can't help that, he was just drawn that way, or whatever. On the other hand, if it's taking up space and as a result stuff like Maps of Mystery, or Critical Threats is getting axed, then I would say it has to go.
And all that said, I'd like to thank everyone who's come onto these messageboards and posted their thoughts. Compliments, criticisims, it's great information all around, and we're certainly listening to everything everyone has to say.
It's funny how new these boards are and yet this seems to be the standard disclaimer from the staff of both Dungeon and Dragon on the boards. It almost always follows a "Well, I'm glad that's your opinion, but let me share with why you you're misinformed . . . "
Dungeon is fine. I haven't seen one person say that the new Dungeon is "bad." It rocks. It is once again back to the form that made me track down every single copy and pay through the nose for some of the earliest issues that had been so well used they fell apart. In fact, add in the DMing articles and Dungeon is about the best it's ever looked. Now if it just went back to the non-glossy b&w so I could write in the margins and make notes my world would be perfect.
You guys are doing a great job.
I read the first Wil Save, and thought it was well written and an interesting insight to a famous person's view on D&D. I read articles like Wil Save the same way I read the editorials: to read about gaming experiences of other people. They usually don't add anything to my game, but I don't expect them to.
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Creative Director
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There's a good possibility that the Maps of Mystrey will return sometime soon; they're a staff favorite, after all.
And Wil Save is not "stealing" space from the magazine. We have not axed any Critical Threats or Maps of Mystery in favor of Wil Save, and we won't do so in the future.
I'm certainly not trying to say anyone's opinions are wrong; that wasn't my intention at all. I'm sorry if any postes I made came across that way.
I'm certainly not trying to say anyone's opinions are wrong; that wasn't my intention at all. I'm sorry if any postes I made came across that way.
You haven't James. I was simply stating how funny it was that you guys (the editorial staffs of Dungeon and Dragon) always seem to defend yourselves against suggestions and criticism in much the same way. There is always a defense of why "we do things this way" followed by the "but we really are listening" disclaimer. You, Erik, Mike, and Matt all seem like nice folks. It wasn't a slap at you, just an observation.
Hey, It's not like I'm going to stop my subscription of DUNGEON after 115 issues over a column that would be a better fit for WOMEN'S HOME JOURNAL. I'm just saying that I'd rather have usefull game content (remember, even the comics can give me ideas to use in a game session) than a Dr. Phil search for my inner gamer.
DUNGEON Rocks! How do I get a Lifetime Membership.
ASEO out
Oh yeah, and here is to having one of, if not the most commented on threads to date.
I have read Wil's article and wondered if he wanted his kid to enjoy the role playing experience then his first step might have been not getting so worked up about the kid touching his dice. I mean come on, get a life. If that was my dad, that would have creeped me away from role playing with Daddio.I am really not interested in his experiences in role playing if he is that strange.I think his article is hokum meant to touch some chord with us readers. Here in Canada I pay over eleven canadian dollars for this magazine.Call me different or opinionated but like others said, it is space that could be used for something useful to a D&D campaign.
Yo man, "Wesley Bashing" soooo 1993.
Wesley who?
there was only one star trek series and it was produced in the 60's.
Personally I got nothing from the article myself. I understand that W Wheaton wrote that article well before it was used in Dungeon Mag, but if the rest of them are going to be like that, it provides little use or interest for me. Otherwise I am indifferent.
.........................Omote
FPQ
Personally if it comes down to content I say axe "Downer" and keep Wil Save. I have only subscribed to Dungeon for going on three years now but I honestly have only read "Downer" twice. I guess Mt Zogon is more my cup of tea. If you can't get the gist of a comic in a few panels let alone several months worth then its storyline is wasted as far as I am concerned.
I'd agree with the Downer-axing if it ever came "down" to it, because the Wil Save article is starting to grow on me...In fact, it was the first thing I read when I got #115.
I had just got the mag and didn't have a whole lot of time to delve into it right then, so I flipped to the back and read the article in a few minutes, then put it away for later consumption. The guy can write...thumbs up!
Thanks,
Kordak
I like Downer and am enjoying following the story. The Downer story has already provided me with some game ideas. I had a character loose a leg, and the big clunky boot that Downer has replacing his foot was the kind of idea I needed. I also like the "window into the underdark" that Downer provides. I do agree, that the story is segments would be hard to follow if you didn't read it from the start, but that is why you read it from the start. I hope that the Needle Man is explained further. Yet another interesting NPC that could be added to one of my games.
ASEO out
I rather liked the Wil column. It may not the "useful" in a crunchy sense, but judging by the first column well worth a page at the end of the magazine.
"Can't believe anyone could have a problem with wil's article.To invite us into this small picture of his life and experience with our game and how it can truly impact us,if we only could stand back and watch ourselves from the sam point of view as wil."
That's exactly what I don't like about it. It's just creepy. Much to Dr. Phil.
ASEO out