I have been buying Dragon and Dungeon for as long as I can remember (on and off subscription) and was hoping you guys would one day put up a message board.
Plus I got the name Vecna before anyone else, ha ha!!
Ditto here. Glad to have a 'board to discuss some of the content.
Same here. I've been wanting these boards for a long time.
Same here. I've been wanting these boards for a long time.
Excellent! We knew there was pent-up demand for these boards, and are very pleased to make them available to our customers.
I think it's great that you guys dropped in a board, but I'm a little skeptical about it really changing anything about Dungeon or Dragon. After all, it took a huge population of subscribers canceling their subscription for Dungeon to change its formatt despite the outpouring of letters and ugly fan responses to the drop in adventure content. While I think this is a great idea and lets the fans feel as though they have a sounding board I think the reality is the only vote that really counts to Paizo is the one made with your pocketbook.
Take into account the complaints about white space just on this board in a very short time. The response from the editorial staff was pretty much "Well, sorry, but we like it so we're going to do it anyway."
Either way, at least it's nice to see you all putting up your own board for fans to touch base with each other and exchange views on these magazines we all love.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I think you're too cynical, Tim.
Sales certainly had something to do with the final decision to axe Polyhedron and refocus Dungeon exclusively on D&D, but the reams and reams of comments posted to messageboards and sent via email informed the decisions I made about how to go about the change.
Given that most of the reaction to the changes to Dungeon have been very positive, I think there's definitely a give-and-take, and hope that these messageboards help us to communicate directly with our readers.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Take a second to re-read my original post, thepriz. You'll see that I said that "most of the reaction to the changes in _Dungeon_ have been very positive."
I was not attempting to whitewash the reaction to Dragon, but was instead offering an analogy from my own experience to prove that message board comments _do_ factor into our decision-making here at Paizo, in reaction to tmcdon's stated skepticism that such comments have any effect at all.
That is all.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
Erik,
The changes to Dungeon have been great! I've posted that comment on both message boards. I have no problems with Dungeon. In fact the last 3-4 issues have been stellar (with the exception of the Eberron specific adventure, which I realize HAS to be there for various reasons)!
What I am disturbed about is the solicitation of reader/poster opinions on things like formatt and when criticism/opinion is given the editorial stuff literally rushed to post how everything was really "top of the line" and how Dragon was now in-line with the rest of the magazine industry, none of which your readers really seem to care about. The gyst of what I saw was from the Dragon editors was "Sorry you feel that way, but we're going to do it anyway because we really know what makes a good magazine and you don't."
While their posts were not directed at me, or anything I said, I really felt as though they were somewhat condescending towards the opinions of the readers stating that they were less than thrilled about the new formatt.
Contributor
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Erik,
What I am disturbed about is the solicitation of reader/poster opinions on things like formatt and when criticism/opinion is given the editorial stuff literally rushed to post how everything was really "top of the line" and how Dragon was now in-line with the rest of the magazine industry, none of which your readers really seem to care about. The gyst of what I saw was from the Dragon editors was "Sorry you feel that way, but we're going to do it anyway because we really know what makes a good magazine and you don't."While their posts were not directed at me, or anything I said, I really felt as though they were somewhat condescending towards the opinions of the readers stating that they were less than thrilled about the new format.
tmcdon,
I'm really terribly sorry if you ever thought I was condescending toward you or anyone else. That was never my intent. Since I'm the only Dragon editor to have posted to the boards thus far, I assume by "from the Dragon editors" you mean specifically something I've written. (I've always enjoyed communicating with other fans, and I have background in working as an online moderator back on the old TSR website, so Matt doesn't mind me posting.) :) If I did write something that offended you, please let me know so I can be careful not to do so again in the future. :)
So anyway, I'm not sure where I said that we were going to continue doing something that y'all on the Paizo message boards have expressed disinterest in out of hubris. We don't think we're better than anyone else; we're just gamers like the rest of y'all. :) Rest assured that any decision we make is never done out of spite toward our loyal (and even infrequent) readers. Sometimes market forces and economic realities force our hands, and sometimes we must contend with other realities as well.
While it's true that we generally know what makes a good magazine, it's also quite true that our publication is aimed at a niche market (a relatively large niche market, to be true, but still a niche). We occasionally have to adjust what we do based not on what the big periodicals do, but what our readers want. Our readers tend to be as passionate about the hobby we cater to as are we editors, and that passion often leads to both euphorically happy and furiously angry responses (with all shades of emotion in between). Of course, we love the former and wince at the latter, but we take into consideration everything our readers take the time to express to us. :)
One of the truisms of messageboards, and especially those that deal with hobbies as passionately followed as ours (and I've seen just as much passion on 'boards for other hobbies in which I participate) is that it can very easily seem that a majority of people feel a certain way. Once a particular opinion gains momentum, one way or the other, it becomes far easier for those in agreement with the prevailing opinion to feel comfortable posting a message than those who disagree. As of this morning, for example, a thread about the new Dragon on the ENWorld messageboards was overwhelmingly positive, while a similar thread here on Dragon's own boards is...well...not. ;) So we read the major messageboards (including now our own--yay!) as well as the emails that come into scalemail@paizo.com and weigh the responses.
I'm sure everyone deep down knows all that, but sometimes it's easy to forget. :) So when I or anyone else associated with the magazines posts something on the boards in response to a reader's complaint, please remember that we are not only trying to address that reader's specific concern, but we're also trying to keep an eye on "the big picture." :)
...and no, I'm not going to reveal what the general feeling of the redesign is...that might sway the opinions of future posters... ;D
Thanks for the quick response Mike and Eric,
No, actually Mike, I wasn't refering to your post but rather to the ones by your assistant editor and art director (but hey! That was a really "cute" article and well layed out and easy to read; you've really demonstrated your superior talent at writing and human relations). I am absolutely sure that you have forgotten more about magazine layout than I will ever know. I'm also sure that you know more about the DnD market than I will ever know. And I'm 100% positive that the changes that you guys make to Dragon are with the absolute best intention of making the magazine better. I am in fact 100% in support of what seems to be the trend of making Dungeon even more DM oriented with the addition of some really great articles, and the idea of making Dragon more player oriented. I think that is one of the best ideas I've ever seen in your set of magazines! What I am concerned about is that some posters (at least HERE) have come right out and said "your new 3 column layout with all the white space really sucks" and the retort seems to be "Yeah, well . . . the "research" backs us up . . .other magazines are doing it . . .so sorry." Not really a good response, and it surely doesn't send the message "I hear what you're saying. If we get similar responses we may really need to change that!"
The simple truth is I am not nearly as picky about Dragon as I am Dungeon. I bought (and continue to subscribe to) Dungeon as a resource for adventures and ideas. I buy Dragon for the crunchy stuff, the art, and the occasional Monte article. I'm probably going to buy the magazine regardless of the changes since I like the player oriented stuff. I think that the attention you plan on paying towards the miniature game is going to hurt you, and the fact that you will do write-ups on
WOTC products but not other D20 publishers is a tad silly. But whatever.
I'm certainly not going to boycott your magazine and I'm not going to threaten to not renew. I'm simply going to say "I hate all the new white space and I hope you put an end to it soon."
Oh and Erik Mona rocks! The new Dungeon is the "bawmdotcom" (whatever that means, my students use it, and the connotation always seems to be good).
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Contributor
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Thanks for the quick response Mike and Erik,
No, actually Mike, I wasn't refering to your post but rather to the ones by your assistant editor and art director.
But I am the assistant editor. :)
I understand better now that you're more talking about the layout of the magazine instead of the words, which is something Sean will have to address. I'll just go ahead and say "thanks for not boycotting us," and then I'll just be quiet for a while (I know, it's about time!). :)
Thanks for not boycotting us! :)
Ive been posting heavily on the Dungeon board and really havent checked out this board at all. I have to say that as an avid long-time reader of both magazines, and a recent first-time subscriber, I am more impressed with the changes to Dungeon than I am to Dragon.
I for one like the decision to put PC oriented stuff in Dragon and focus on DM info in the Dungeon line. I was unimpressed with the big article on samurai and knights, but I wouldnt mind more articles along that line (just take a stand on the next one!). I thought you did a great job keeping a balance of cruchy material in there with your articles on the Seven Deadly Sins and Detect Evil variants. Plus I LOVED the class acts section (although it seems most people didnt). In fact, I have already used some of the material in there the other day as my players were drawing up new characters. Some of the old favorites are still in there including Silicon Sorcery and the Race profile (cyclopeans). I cant say I liked the white spaces, but im not really a reader that pays attention to formatting in general. It only came to my attention by reading these boards.
As for cover art, I for one, loved it. I know its not as "full" as the Dungeon cover. I thought it was an appropriate design considering the theme (plus I guess all the white on the cover should have given sufficient hint that the inside would have as much!). I mean whats more DnD that a red dragon!? Oh well
My last point, and its one I dont want to understate, is the praise for these boards. While having boards for your readers to communicate on is great in and of itself, I have never seen the number of posts from editors and assistant editors as appear on these boards. That includes Erik on down! I am confident that as a reader I am listened to on here not just because my money pays for a subscription. Reading the boards for the second adventure path makes it clear that readers are respected for their opinions and can make a difference in the information that goes into these mags. Thanks Paizo!
Only question and I apologize for going on and on, how do I post a question to Scale Mail?
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Senior Software Developer
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Thanks very much for your feedback! As PostMonster General, one of my jobs is to goad the rest of the staff into paying attention to what's going on with our messageboards, and respond appropriately. But it turns out that everyone is doing it without my gentle prodding... they really do want and appreciate your input!
Only question and I apologize for going on and on, how do I post a question to Scale Mail?Send an email to scalemail@paizo.com.
I would just like to say that having these message boards and having the various editors actively posting to these boards is exceptionally fantastic. Combined with the format change (I'm going to hold off on comments on the format change because several different magazines on completely different subjects all changed format around the same time so I've been glossing over the different formats) I think this is a "perfect storm" of success!
And a Post Monster General! A perfect idea!
Understand, however, that the general nature of man is to post a complaint 95% of the time and a complement 75% of the time. (I'm sure it's probably true of fan/hate mail as well.) I'm sure that in time, this will become a very popular resource and hopefully that in turn will help promote what is becomming better and better with each issue!