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Kybern |
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This seems like an error/oversight.
It isn't even exceptionally good to make up for the 2 action cost.
It's an attack, so both the 2 actions and the focus point are utterly wasted on a miss, something that is more than likely to happen as a wizard.
It has only 30 ft range, which means not only does the wizard risk wasting resources for potentially no reward, but he also has to put himself in danger for just the attempt.
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breithauptclan |
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It's an attack,
That right there. The vast majority of offense spells are 2 actions.
The other damaging spells are Force Bolt - which is based on Magic Missile, which can also be cast for one action if desired; and Hand of the Apprentice - which is replicating a ranged Strike with a thrown weapon, which is also one action.
Call of the Grave looks a lot like Ray of Enfeeblement (without having both an attack roll and a Fortitude save) - and Ray of Enfeeblement is a 2 action spell.
The rest look to me like they are defense or buff spells.
Warped Terrain can be cast for 2 or 3 actions too.
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Kybern |
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Kybern wrote:It's an attack,That right there. The vast majority of offense spells are 2 actions.
The other damaging spells are Force Bolt - which is based on Magic Missile, which can also be cast for one action if desired; and Hand of the Apprentice - which is replicating a ranged Strike with a thrown weapon, which is also one action.
Call of the Grave looks a lot like Ray of Enfeeblement (without having both an attack roll and a Fortitude save) - and Ray of Enfeeblement is a 2 action spell.
The rest look to me like they are defense or buff spells.
Warped Terrain can be cast for 2 or 3 actions too.
Why is Charming Words only one action then? It's a debuff spell just like Call of the Grave, except it targets Will and thus has an effect even on a successful save.
And those defense or buff focus spells? All are 1 action. Why? Most defense and buff spells are 2 actions too.
And Hand of the Apprentice is an attack SPELL, for which it should be 2 actions, as you said: "The vast majority of offense spells are 2 actions."
As for Ray of Enfeeblement, it's kind of a moot point to compare it to that, since it is generally considered one of the worst offensive spells in the game. This post could've just as well been about why Ray of Enfeeblement is so bad.
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Baarogue |
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What a thing to get SO mad about. It probably has to do with the budget for the sickened condition, which is probably why you're so interested in it, which means they probably made the right decision, which they probably arrived at through playtesting, which everyone around here seems to be forgetting with every thread complaining about how every class doesn't have full training with every weapon like they'd rather be playing GURPS or something. But I digress
You whinge that "ohhh, it costs two actions and I might lose them and the focus point if I miss" but you might just as well hit (especially if you stack the deck with frightened or combine the spell with spellstrike and attack a flat-footed foe), which means sickened 1 (no secondary save, as with ray of enfeeblement) or you might crit (again, especially if you tweak the odds), in which case they're sickened 2 and slowed 1 as long as they're sickened which a lot of people forget (but not you, I bet) sickened doesn't go away automatically like frightened does. Yeah, that's a steal for 2 actions and 1 focus point, which means you do it every fight. lol
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Kybern |
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What a thing to get SO mad about. It probably has to do with the budget for the sickened condition, which is probably why you're so interested in it, which means they probably made the right decision, which they probably arrived at through playtesting, which everyone around here seems to be forgetting with every thread complaining about how every class doesn't have full training with every weapon like they'd rather be playing GURPS or something. But I digress
You whinge that "ohhh, it costs two actions and I might lose them and the focus point if I miss" but you might just as well hit (especially if you stack the deck with frightened or combine the spell with spellstrike and attack a flat-footed foe), which means sickened 1 (no secondary save, as with ray of enfeeblement) or you might crit (again, especially if you tweak the odds), in which case they're sickened 2 and slowed 1 as long as they're sickened which a lot of people forget (but not you, I bet) sickened doesn't go away automatically like frightened does. Yeah, that's a steal for 2 actions and 1 focus point, which means you do it every fight. lol
Don't know what makes you think I'm mad, I'm just genuinely curious as to why this is the only base wizard focus spell (out of 9) that costs 2 actions.
All the reasons that have been given so far are either contradictory (it's an attack... oh wait, so is Hand of the Apprentice) or irrelevant (stacking the deck? that works for all spells....).You then list the perks of the spell... nice. Have you seen what Charming Words does for 1 action and vs a Will save? Not only is that defense weaker on average than AC, the spell even has an effect when the save was successful. And the crit effect is just as good as the one for Call the Grave. Where is the budget for the stunned condition or the "no hostile actions vs you" effect here?
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graystone |
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Of all the things that seem iffy in the game, Call of the grave being 2 actions isn't even close to the bottom of the list. Sickened is a penalty to everything you do and they have to spend actions to try and get rid of it. Charming Words is Incapacitation which can suck as targets higher than you treat their roll as one degree better.
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Plane |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
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My next ready-to-go character is based around being able to use Call of the Grave "for free" in every fight. Combined with True Strike, it will occasionally end an encounter and will almost always have a significant impact. With a Reach weapon, you can easily set this up to give you a flanking bonus to your spell attack roll. Even against an above level threat, you can give yourself a 30% crit chance.
Focus Points are a renewable resource, and True Strike is easy to get a lot of. Two actions for this Focus Spell never crossed my mind as expensive. One action to remove Sickened 1 plus a -1 to everything is good effect and action economy. When you score Sickened 2 and Slowed 1, you automatically shut down a boss' entire next turn or the next two or more if they fail any of their Sickened checks.
IMHO, Call of the Grave is Sick! ;)
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Red Metal |
Baarogue wrote:What a thing to get SO mad about. It probably has to do with the budget for the sickened condition, which is probably why you're so interested in it, which means they probably made the right decision, which they probably arrived at through playtesting, which everyone around here seems to be forgetting with every thread complaining about how every class doesn't have full training with every weapon like they'd rather be playing GURPS or something. But I digress
You whinge that "ohhh, it costs two actions and I might lose them and the focus point if I miss" but you might just as well hit (especially if you stack the deck with frightened or combine the spell with spellstrike and attack a flat-footed foe), which means sickened 1 (no secondary save, as with ray of enfeeblement) or you might crit (again, especially if you tweak the odds), in which case they're sickened 2 and slowed 1 as long as they're sickened which a lot of people forget (but not you, I bet) sickened doesn't go away automatically like frightened does. Yeah, that's a steal for 2 actions and 1 focus point, which means you do it every fight. lol
Don't know what makes you think I'm mad, I'm just genuinely curious as to why this is the only base wizard focus spell (out of 9) that costs 2 actions.
All the reasons that have been given so far are either contradictory (it's an attack... oh wait, so is Hand of the Apprentice) or irrelevant (stacking the deck? that works for all spells....).
You then list the perks of the spell... nice. Have you seen what Charming Words does for 1 action and vs a Will save? Not only is that defense weaker on average than AC, the spell even has an effect when the save was successful. And the crit effect is just as good as the one for Call the Grave. Where is the budget for the stunned condition or the "no hostile actions vs you" effect here?
You know we're the not the ones who wrote the game, right? All we can do is try to give our best guess as to what the designers intended, and getting mad at us isn't going to change the rules at all.
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egindar |
My next ready-to-go character is based around being able to use Call of the Grave "for free" in every fight. Combined with True Strike, it will occasionally end an encounter and will almost always have a significant impact. With a Reach weapon, you can easily set this up to give you a flanking bonus to your spell attack roll. Even against an above level threat, you can give yourself a 30% crit chance.
Focus Points are a renewable resource, and True Strike is easy to get a lot of. Two actions for this Focus Spell never crossed my mind as expensive. One action to remove Sickened 1 plus a -1 to everything is good effect and action economy. When you score Sickened 2 and Slowed 1, you automatically shut down a boss' entire next turn or the next two or more if they fail any of their Sickened checks.
IMHO, Call of the Grave is Sick! ;)
The "hold a whip and get flat-footed on spell attacks" trick doesn't work anymore after a batch of errata, unfortunately.
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Plane |
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This is a polearm build actually, but you're right about non-melee attacks as of 3rd printing:
Page 476: Flanking was ambiguous on what happened if you made a ranged attack while within reach of a foe you are flanking. To make it clear that only melee attacks benefit from flanking, change the second sentence to read "A creature is flat-footed (taking a –2 circumstance penalty to AC) to melee attacks from creatures that are flanking it."
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Unicore |
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Call of the grave is a very good combat focus spell for wizards. It is true that spell attack roll spells do nothing on a miss, but as one part of a caster’s arsenal, they can be very useful in situations where other spells can be disappointing. The only spell attacks you can use hero points or true strike with are spell attack roll spells, so it is good to have at least 1 spell attack roll spell in your arsenal. Spell attack roll spells are also immune to the very common “+1 to save vs magic/spells” and AC is usually easier to debuff than saving throws.
This isn’t to say it is a good idea to overload spell attack roll spells into you arsenal, but necromancer don’t usually end up with a lot lot of them in their spell slot spells, so a focus spell attack roll spell can be very useful.
PF2 is a game of teamwork and each team approaches problems differently, but martial characters who knock enemies prone is a pretty common thing that makes it so you don’t have to try to move into position to make your target flat-footed.
Against creatures like oozes, call of the grave can very easily break a combat when you are facing one higher level monster, which is often the case with oozes. 2 actions for it never felt like I was wasting my time casting it.
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Here's a breakdown of all level 1 Wizard focus spells and what (if any) spell they are similar to.
Augment Summoning - 1 Action - +1 to Checks and DCs as long as you continue to Sustain the summon. Can't use on the same round you Summon.
Call of the Grave - 2 Actions - Attack Roll imparting a -1 Status penalty on a creature, which it has to spend an action to possibly get rid of. On a critical hit it also SLOWS the target. Insane value for just two actions, especially on bosses when the party has 12 actions to the boss's 3.
Charming Words - 1 Action - Basically just Charm but lasting 1 round.
Diviner's Sight - 1 Action - Gives a target "Roll twice keep highest" once in the next round.
Efficient Apport - 1 Action - Picks up objects at range. Better version of Mage Hand. Very niche.
Force Bolt - 1 Action - Just a single action Magic Missile
Hand of the Apprentice - Ranged Melee Strike that uses Int instead of Str.
Physical Boost - 1 Action - +2 Status to Athletics/Acrobatics/Fort/Reflex. Good if someone needs a boost to Trip or Grab something, or you know a save is coming up.
Protective Ward - 1 Action - Bless but for AC. Must sustain.
Warped Terrain - 1 to 3 Actions - Very good for preventing enemies from running at you or away from you. Great against flyers at level 4 (Flying up becomes Greater Difficult Terrain in the area)
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egindar |
This is a polearm build actually, but you're right about non-melee attacks as of 3rd printing:
Page 476: Flanking was ambiguous on what happened if you made a ranged attack while within reach of a foe you are flanking. To make it clear that only melee attacks benefit from flanking, change the second sentence to read "A creature is flat-footed (taking a –2 circumstance penalty to AC) to melee attacks from creatures that are flanking it."
Whips were usually the weapon I heard used for this trick because they were reach + 1-handed, so you could still have a free hand for staves/scrolls/wands/etc.
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Errenor |
Warped Terrain - 1 to 3 Actions - Very good for preventing enemies from running at you or away from you. Great against flyers at level 4 (Flying up becomes Greater Difficult Terrain in the area)
Maybe you could find where it says that two difficult terrains stack to make greater difficult? I want it to work like that, but I couldn't find it.