My Monk build. Judge it.

Hello, I have recently made a Grappling Monk build.. Let me break it down for all of you, and maybe I can get some constructive criticism. :)

Name-Aulde Bharan
Race-Human
Class-Monk
Level-1

What he brings to the party, as far as combat effectiveness goes:

The ability to grapple,stun and trip, the hell out of any particularly powerful individuals.

The ability to avoid practically all AoO's due to his high acrobatics score, and because he has no armor.

STR: 17 (+3) I had to sacrifice STR to get get INT for Combat Expertise.
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 12 (+1) Another sacrifice, I went from +2, to +1 here.
INT: 13 (+1) Required for Combat Expertise, which is a PreReq for some tripping feats that I desire.

WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 8 (-1) Eh.. a bit of a bummer. But this skill isn't so important for me.

My saves are as follows:

Fort:+3
Reflex:+4
Will+4

Armor Class-14 (2 from my Dex bonus, and another two from my Wisdom.
Touch AC-14/Flatfooted AC-12

CM Bonus:+3 (+5 While Grappling)
CM Defense: 18 (20 vs. Grapple)

Health Points-10
Initiative: +2

Trained Skills:

Acrobatics: +6
Climb: +7
Perception: +6
Sense Motive: +6
Swim: +7
Use Magic Device: +4 (I chose this for the ability to use (Wand: Magic Armor, or Enlarge Person on myself, rather than having someone else do it for me.)

Feats:

Improved Grapple: Allows me to avoid provoking AoO's while attempting to grapple an enemy, and grants me +2 for Grapple Attacking, and Defending.

Combat Expertise: Allows me to reduce my melee attack rolls, and combat maneuver checks by one, in order to grant myself a +1 dodge bonus to my AC.

Defensive Combat Training: I treat my Total Hit Dice as my base attack bonus when calculating my Combat Maneuver Defense.

The rest of my feats are the General Monk Feats.

Traits:

Dangerously Curious: Allow me the use of Magic Devices, and allows me to train this skill.

Bullied: I get +1 attack bonuses to AoO's.

I think you have 4+ threads on the same topic?!

I think you have 4+ threads on the same topic?!

Probably. How do I remove them? I don't want to fill up the threads. :S

Hello, I have recently made a Grappling Monk build.. Let me break it down for all of you, and maybe I can get some constructive criticism. :)

Name-Aulde Bharan
Race-Human
Class-Monk
Level-1

What he brings to the party, as far as combat effectiveness goes:

The ability to grapple,stun and trip, the hell out of any particularly powerful individuals.

The ability to avoid practically all AoO's due to his high acrobatics score, and because he has no armor.

STR: 17 (+3) I had to sacrifice STR to get get INT for Combat Expertise.
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 12 (+1) Another sacrifice, I went from +2, to +1 here.
INT: 13 (+1) Required for Combat Expertise, which is a PreReq for some tripping feats that I desire.

WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 8 (-1) Eh.. a bit of a bummer. But this skill isn't so important for me.

My saves are as follows:

Fort:+3
Reflex:+4
Will+4

Armor Class-14 (2 from my Dex bonus, and another two from my Wisdom.
Touch AC-14/Flatfooted AC-12

CM Bonus:+3 (+5 While Grappling)
CM Defense: 18 (20 vs. Grapple)

Health Points-10
Initiative: +2

Trained Skills:

Acrobatics: +6
Climb: +7
Perception: +6
Sense Motive: +6
Swim: +7
Use Magic Device: +4 (I chose this for the ability to use (Wand: Magic Armor, or Enlarge Person on myself, rather than having someone else do it for me.)

Feats:

Improved Grapple: Allows me to avoid provoking AoO's while attempting to grapple an enemy, and grants me +2 for Grapple Attacking, and Defending.

Combat Expertise: Allows me to reduce my melee attack rolls, and combat maneuver checks by one, in order to grant myself a +1 dodge bonus to my AC.

Defensive Combat Training: I treat my Total Hit Dice as my base attack bonus when calculating my Combat Maneuver Defense.

The rest of my feats are the General Monk Feats.

Traits:

Dangerously Curious: Allow me the use of Magic Devices, and allows me to train this skill.

Bullied: I get +1 attack bonuses to AoO's.

I would drop climb or swim for stealth. It is normal to have to sneak in a game. Climb and swim dont come up all that much, and I would drop combat expertise unless you plan to build on it with other feats.

Alright, I have switched out Climb for Stealth.

Who needs climb when you have Ki Points? :)

"The ability to avoid practically all AoO's due to his high acrobatics score, and because he has no armor."

?

You have a +6 Acrobatics, and an AC of 14. Not exactly a powerhouse.
I'm not criticizing your character, just your statement (Unless it was made in humor?).

-Uriel

Dodge might be better to start with than Combat Expertise, unless of course you need Combat Expertise to open up a future feat tree.
Dodge gives you the same +1 Dodge bonus, without the to hit penalty of -1 that come with using Combat Expertise.

In Combat Expertise's favor, however, there is a Trait that allows you to reduce 1 point of the To Hit penalty from Combat Expertise. I cannot remember the Trait name of source, but it is in an Official Paizo product. (Not a third party book).

It might be too much of a re-build, but you could beef up the DEX and lower the STR to 13 (for Power Attack). Finesse you attacks and feed of DEX for both To Hit and Defense. Use Power Attack when you need to deal extra damage.

Meant to say take Dodge early in your career, then re-train to Combat Expertise when you are ready for the Feats that require Combat Expertise.

"The ability to avoid practically all AoO's due to his high acrobatics score, and because he has no armor."

?

You have a +6 Acrobatics, and an AC of 14. Not exactly a powerhouse.
I'm not criticizing your character, just your statement (Unless it was made in humor?).

-Uriel

It was humor. He's just level one. :)

Dodge might be better to start with than Combat Expertise, unless of course you need Combat Expertise to open up a future feat tree.

Dodge gives you the same +1 Dodge bonus, without the to hit penalty of -1 that come with using Combat Expertise.

In Combat Expertise's favor, however, there is a Trait that allows you to reduce 1 point of the To Hit penalty from Combat Expertise. I cannot remember the Trait name of source, but it is in an Official Paizo product. (Not a third party book).

It might be too much of a re-build, but you could beef up the DEX and lower the STR to 13 (for Power Attack). Finesse you attacks and feed of DEX for both To Hit and Defense. Use Power Attack when you need to deal extra damage.

What is the feat to reduce the To Hit penalty?

If this is point buy, I would swap some Strength for Wisdom. Sure, at 1st level, the +3 to hit and damage is nice, but as you level, there will be other ways to improve hitting and damage. As time goes on, the Wisdom boost to AC and ESPECIALLY to your ki pool will be far more valuable than your Strength score.

I'm not saying dump strength, but point buy to 17 at level 1 is a lot of points, and personally I find the purported importance of boosting Strength is over-hyped a bit. A character with a 16 Strength still would be a viable Olympic competitor.

Even if you just drop back to Str 16 (so you still have that +3), that gives you a few points to put elsewhere.

Also, where you swapped climb for stealth, I would keep climb and lose swim. I have seen Climb used many times in a campaign, Swim only in very specific circumstances.

Most who want to beef up Swim do so to counteract encumbrance/armor penalties if you end up falling into water. As monks seldom need to deal with such penalties, swim is much less of a priority. (However, if you know the campaign is going to be aquatic, I can see why you may want a few ranks in swim. Or for that matter if it's an important part of your character background).

A smaller thought: With the Bullied trait, you may eventually want to take Combat Reflexes as a feat. With a boost to AOOs, you want to boost how many AOOs you can get as much as possible. (Also, being able to make an AOO while flat-footed can be useful.)

If this is point buy, I would swap some Strength for Wisdom. Sure, at 1st level, the +3 to hit and damage is nice, but as you level, there will be other ways to improve hitting and damage. As time goes on, the Wisdom boost to AC and ESPECIALLY to your ki pool will be far more valuable than your Strength score.

I'm not saying dump strength, but point buy to 17 at level 1 is a lot of points, and personally I find the purported importance of boosting Strength is over-hyped a bit. A character with a 16 Strength still would be a viable Olympic competitor.

Even if you just drop back to Str 16 (so you still have that +3), that gives you a few points to put elsewhere.

Also, where you swapped climb for stealth, I would keep climb and lose swim. I have seen Climb used many times in a campaign, Swim only in very specific circumstances.

Most who want to beef up Swim do so to counteract encumbrance/armor penalties if you end up falling into water. As monks seldom need to deal with such penalties, swim is much less of a priority. (However, if you know the campaign is going to be aquatic, I can see why you may want a few ranks in swim. Or for that matter if it's an important part of your character background).

A smaller thought: With the Bullied trait, you may eventually want to take Combat Reflexes as a feat. With a boost to AOOs, you want to boost how many AOOs you can get as much as possible. (Also, being able to make an AOO while flat-footed can be useful.)

Thanks a bunch! :) I'll make the changes right away. :)

How many points should I take from STR, though? I need to have a good amount of it for my CMB CMD stats. I can really only afford to take one point away from it, to give to Wisdom.. And the change does not give Wisdom +1 to the mod. It's still at +2. What should I do?

Question:

Is Elemental Fist a good ability to have?

If this is point buy, I would swap some Strength for Wisdom. Sure, at 1st level, the +3 to hit and damage is nice, but as you level, there will be other ways to improve hitting and damage. As time goes on, the Wisdom boost to AC and ESPECIALLY to your ki pool will be far more valuable than your Strength score.

I'm not saying dump strength, but point buy to 17 at level 1 is a lot of points, and personally I find the purported importance of boosting Strength is over-hyped a bit. A character with a 16 Strength still would be a viable Olympic competitor.

Even if you just drop back to Str 16 (so you still have that +3), that gives you a few points to put elsewhere.

Also, where you swapped climb for stealth, I would keep climb and lose swim. I have seen Climb used many times in a campaign, Swim only in very specific circumstances.

Most who want to beef up Swim do so to counteract encumbrance/armor penalties if you end up falling into water. As monks seldom need to deal with such penalties, swim is much less of a priority. (However, if you know the campaign is going to be aquatic, I can see why you may want a few ranks in swim. Or for that matter if it's an important part of your character background).

A smaller thought: With the Bullied trait, you may eventually want to take Combat Reflexes as a feat. With a boost to AOOs, you want to boost how many AOOs you can get as much as possible. (Also, being able to make an AOO while flat-footed can be useful.)

I will take the hit for that. I really don't believe in strength based monks, but he wants to be a grapple master. Now I think there is a feat that lets you use Dex instead of strength, but I kind looked at Treantmonk's guide, and made adjustments for a grappler.

edit: The feat is agile maneuvers, and while I do think the suggestions I gave earlier are decent I would drop one of those feats(in my build outline) for this one to keep your grappling relevant. It does not have to be at level one. If you like I can look over the choices again to see which feat is not needed as much. I am still not a believer in combat expertise, but that may be a playstyle issue.

DeathQuaker wrote:

If this is point buy, I would swap some Strength for Wisdom. Sure, at 1st level, the +3 to hit and damage is nice, but as you level, there will be other ways to improve hitting and damage. As time goes on, the Wisdom boost to AC and ESPECIALLY to your ki pool will be far more valuable than your Strength score.

I'm not saying dump strength, but point buy to 17 at level 1 is a lot of points, and personally I find the purported importance of boosting Strength is over-hyped a bit. A character with a 16 Strength still would be a viable Olympic competitor.

Even if you just drop back to Str 16 (so you still have that +3), that gives you a few points to put elsewhere.

Also, where you swapped climb for stealth, I would keep climb and lose swim. I have seen Climb used many times in a campaign, Swim only in very specific circumstances.

Most who want to beef up Swim do so to counteract encumbrance/armor penalties if you end up falling into water. As monks seldom need to deal with such penalties, swim is much less of a priority. (However, if you know the campaign is going to be aquatic, I can see why you may want a few ranks in swim. Or for that matter if it's an important part of your character background).

A smaller thought: With the Bullied trait, you may eventually want to take Combat Reflexes as a feat. With a boost to AOOs, you want to boost how many AOOs you can get as much as possible. (Also, being able to make an AOO while flat-footed can be useful.)

I will take the hit for that. I really don't believe in strength based monks, but he wants to be a grapple master. Now I think there is a feat that lets you use Dex instead of strength, but I kind looked at Treantmonk's guide, and made adjustments for a grappler.

I do not particularly care for climb or swim, but it might be a flavor thing so I only suggested he drop one of them. If nobody has mentioned it, that feat that allows him to use dex might be the way to go.

Strength is important for Grappling but by the time a high strength makes that much of a difference (again I'm not saying he should dump strength, just not raise the stat so high at 1st level) he will be able to afford a belt of strength and/or raise strength via leveling. He has Defensive Combat Training so he has full bab for all maneuvers--at first level and with his Improved Grapple bonus feat he's already a competitive grappler for his level.

Dex-based monks are frustrating because you will need to take both weapon finesse and agile maneuvers, taking up two early feat slots that you could fill with something else. It's one of the biggest reasons why the people who argue the two feats should be one have started to convince me.

Thank you everyone!

This really helped me, I have a pretty specific view of how my character should turn out now. :)

On another point, how do grappling monks scale later into the game? Are they still effective at level 10, and up?

On another point, how do grappling monks scale later into the game? Are they still effective at level 10, and up?

To be honest it depends on what types of monsters the DM uses. If they are mostly humanoid and medium to maybe large you will not do to bad, but if he uses huge monsters and larger dont expect to win those grapples. Also keep in mind that most medium monsters(non-humanoid) are a lot stronger than a humanoid of the same size, and if your DM throws on class levels things get harder.

Many higher level outsider also have teleport so they can just "disappear" even if you do grapple them.
Once you get past level 10 finding a monster that is medium sized will be hard to do so it(grappling) will start to decrease in value as you level.

PS: This does not mean don't grapple, but keep your DM's playing style in mind.

Hello, I have recently made a Grappling Monk build.. Let me break it down for all of you, and maybe I can get some constructive criticism. :)

First look at the APG for the monk variants as there might be one that interests you.

Second I'd do the stats a bit differently:

STR 19 (17+2 racial)
INT 07
WIS 14
DEX 14
CON 14
CHA 07

Skills: Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics

I would tend to rely upon potions and other PCs for enlarges and mage armors myself. You can put the favored class bonus either into a skill (and have the same hps that you planned), hps (for even more hps), or increasing your ki pool (via APG).

Use a staff and at low levels either smash or grab them.. I don't say and cause they're going to be done after you do either.

Personally weapon adept seems reasonable as I tend to like perfect strike over say stunning fist. While stunning fist has a (low) save DC, perfect strike is a nice boost on one of your attacks.

Feats: Improved Grapple(M), Power Attack(1st), Cleave(Human).
Salt to taste... but at low levels this will work well for you.

Traits: Heirloom weapon, bullied

Attack: +6 (+5/+5 flurry) for 1d6+6 (1d6+4/1d6+4 flurry)

What levels are you planning for this character?

-James

why do you need expertise? Surely not to qualify for feats, because bonus monk feats are free of pre-requisites.

Take the strength. Some foes will be best attacked with damage, that has to stay a viable option.

I agree with the sentiment that a dex-based grappler is a good idea. Weapon Finesse (according to James Jacobs) is sufficient to allow dex-based CMB rolls to apply when it makes sense; and I think grappling certainly is finessable.

So dump Str, increase Dex, use Weapon Finesse.

Combat Expertise is fine if you need to get Greater Trip, or if you need Improved Trip at very early levels. Otherwise just wait til level 6 and your trip needs are fulfilled.

Another alternative to strength is making use of a "guided" (enhancement) amulet of mighty fists (from the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP), that allows you to use Wisdom instead of Strength for attack and damage. This has a very big impact on monk builds, if your GM approves of it.

I agree with the sentiment that a dex-based grappler is a good idea. Weapon Finesse (according to James Jacobs) is sufficient to allow dex-based CMB rolls to apply when it makes sense; and I think grappling certainly is finessable.

That would render Agile Maneuvers pointless.

I didn't read James Jacobs' post but I have a guess that he meant things like applying weapon finesse to disarming someone with a rapier. Not grappling.

Just a few things to consider and keep in mind for you/ask your GM about:

1) Ask if you can get the Intuitive Strike feat from 3.5 - it acts like Weapon Finesse, but keyed to Wis instead of Dex. If you're GM is Game, COMPLETELY rework things so that Wis and Dex/Con are high stats for you with maybe only a 13 or so for Str (to get Power Attack). Honestly ... this is a SOLID option to make a monk super-bad-ass! In PF, there's no such feat yet, but I've heard tell of some weapon quality that goes beyond it and adds Wis to hit and damage both (holy cripes!!!). If you can hold off on a *slight* downgrade until you can purchase say brass knuckles from APG w/that enchantment, it'll be one hell of an investment. Remember that Wis keys to your Ki point pool total, AND AC that is unaffected by loss of dex situations.

2) He'll need Combat Expertise if he wants to get anything beyond just the opening maneuver options. It sucks, but that's the way PF adjusted maneuvers - give w/one hand, and take away w/the other. Now, instead of getting Trip for free (like 3.5) monks have to double invest in it - the pre-req, AND a follow up after the base trip. It's moved from a 1 feat option to a 3-feat deep chain and the *only* part that's "free" to the monk is the initial feat. So if he ever wants to say, cause AoO's from trips, he needs to take Cmb Expertise somewhere. My advice, though - take something else for level 1. Cmb Exp is keyed off of BAB ... at level 1 you *have* no BAB to trade in (ie: it's a wasted feat for level 1).

3) Wpn Finesse or any other "to hit" sort of mechanic in play would read (to me) as granting that "to hit" in whatever piece of your style that is up and running. If you grapple, you can use it w/that, if you kick, you can use it w/that. There's NO reason to not allow that to factor into *any* combat maneuver offense/defense check other than artificially trying to nerf/negate the benefit of the feat/enchantment/whatever it is that was taken and invested in. If you're better at striking and such through prediction and anticipation of your opponent (wis) why would that suddenly be negated in a grapple situation? If you compensate in combat by targeting and placing perfect shots (dex) why would *that* not apply in grapple situations (ie: grab in the right place at the right time, etc)?

:shrugs:

Unfortunately, w/monks, cha is *always* a bad idea.

If you can get the GM to allow that intuitive strike feat in, though, you'll be in a MUCH better position. You can build up Wis like crazy - boost AC, "to hit", and Wis save for that ... AND you're Stunning Fist will actually be worth a damn! Which, by the by, means that Medusa's Wrath becomes a DEVASTATING feat choice for you (ie: higher DC's => more likely to fail stun => -Dex bonus AND -2 more on target that drops all held items for the stun lasting until your next round just before your action => you set up the stun and EVERYONE gets to bring the pain on this target with a now reduced AC AND you disarmed him/her if not using lock-gauntlets or something else (ie: AoO when he/she/it tries to pick it up and re-arm ... AoO's for *everyone* that just stepped up and had a field day on him, too, mind you!).

[QUOTE=

2) He'll need Combat Expertise if he wants to get anything beyond just the opening maneuver options.

My vote = not worth it. Forget about INT, and Expertise, and be grateful for the free feats you receive. There are ways to make them work.

Monks are stat intensive as is. Adding INT makes your problems worse, not better.

Thanks for all of this help!

I'll be sure to change around my character, with this new info.

Thanks for all of this help!

I'll be sure to change around my character, with this new info.

Just be sure, James, that you end up with a character you think is fun to play. That's the most important thing, and while character effectiveness is a big part of that, everyone's perception of what is effective, let alone optimal, is different. At the end of the day, you should look at the character sheet and feel proud of what you see because you like the idea of it, not because it passes an Internet Stranger Arbitrary Standard of "Optimal." :)

I know you have had a few days to look at this now, but I thought I might contribute.

I have a 6th level Chelaxian Dwarven Monk, with a focus on grappling and a build not too dissimilar to your own. This is for play in Society.

You can see him here:

Nbarg the Wise.

General comments on this build (high strength)

He does one of two things: He grapples, he flurries. He has pretty much given up on the idea of weapons other then cestus. Anything else interferes with his grappling.

General strategy is run/jump over obstacles. If the target is a caster or an archer, by all means grapple. Also advised against a BBEG when you have allied heavy hitters on hand. In my build, I took step up and improved trip to stay on top of casters/archers and prevent them dancing away from me.

Do NOT attempt to grapple if you are the first in and surrounded by foes (especially rogues) - as is often the case with a high mobility monk (even a dwarf). You are asking to get killed, especially with your (our) low level. You would be better advised to use a ki point to boost AC for 1 round and just hit things until you can get a flurry of blows off the next round.

Grappling
CMD, CMD, CMD. It's easy to get your CMB high from Str, Combat Manuever Training, various bonuses (flank, competence, morale, etc). However, nothing is quite as annoying as your foe just slipping out of your grasp due to a low CMD. I took Defensive Combat Training at a low level, even though it was an only 1 point difference, but dodge also helps. Don't ignore CMD and become CMB obsessed!

Flurry of Blows:
Get bonuses any way to you can - Weapon Focus, magic items. You'll find yourself doing flurry more then any other action - way more often then grappling. Over, and over, and over.

As noted in the item thread you started, FOB is always treated as two single weapons. No off-hand penalty to power attack/str, no 1.5 bonus from two handing. Cestus are better then temple swords, eventually, if you go the weapon route (although more conspicuous then a staff)

Stunning Fist
So far, this has *not* worked out for me. I've had a successful Stun 1 time in my 6 levels, due to low wisdom, and fort being a good save for many creatures. Certainly, take the alternate class features - Elemental Fist is the goto choice, as it isn't a Wisdom based save ability. Perfect strike is good too, if you went that route - just don't get attached to your weapon too much if you seriously intend to grapple much. I like evasion too much at low levels for the weapon master route.

Feats
I highly recommend Weapon Focus (Unarmed) - Adds to both unarmed grapples and to Flurry of Blows. You have to focus on your fists - if you attempt to grapple at all you must give up any pretense of wielding a weapon - the -4 penalty is just too great. If you decided upon weapon master, I might switch this recommendation to weapon focus (cestus)

Mundane Equipment
Only thing in particular: Cestus, one mithral and one cold iron. - leaves your hands mostly free, makes flurry of blows pretty scary with 19-20 crit and monk unarmed damage

Disposable Items
I know you asked this in a separate thread, but here is my take.

Use two of your PA points, and pick up a wand of mage armor. Hand it to the wizard. The utility of this wand is closely followed by a wand of magic weapon - +1 on both flurry of blows and unarmed attacks.

Suggestions for potions of enlarge are right one - nice to have reach, and the +2 for CMB (+1 str, +1 size) are much appreciated.

Permanent Items
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone slotted in a wayfinder -
Must, must, must have. 5000 for the stone, 250 for the wayfinder (in PFS), and you get the following insight bonuses: +1 AC, +2 CMB, +2 CMD.
This totally defies any sort of logical mechanics sense and vastly improves your abilities as a grappler. Save up for this immediately.

Amulet of Mighty Fists - Vicious
It's a +1 amulet (relatively cheap) you don't need a base +1 bonus, and if you can get over the "i'm hurting myself" mindblock, it becomes quite lethal when combined with Flurry of Blows - and as a monk you are very good at retreating when your are too hurt. You can always turn it off when you're at a pathfinder game without a cleric/oracle. If you ended up as a weapon master, your weapon selections are going to be different - sacrifice some grappling/unarmed to focus on building up your weapons instead. You won't want this item as a weapon master - spend your money elsewhere.

I have yet to get a belt item at 6th item. - still waffling between str, dex or combined belt. Seem to be getting on pretty well with the occasional bulls strength from a kind cleric.

Summary
I would think of yourself more as a flurry of blows specialist and occasional grappler then a dedicated grappler. Pick up a cestus and make people rue the day they gave you a full attack action.

Good luck.

Question:

Is Elemental Fist a good ability to have?

Stunning fist is better. Elemental fist -- I wouldn't take this feat unless I had a specific reason to. Perfect strike is a much better choice if you get the choice for it.

Jamesblonde wrote:

Question:

Is Elemental Fist a good ability to have?

Stunning fist is better. Elemental fist -- I wouldn't take this feat unless I had a specific reason to. Perfect strike is a much better choice if you get the choice for it.

At higher levels, or if you have a higher wisdom, Stunning Blow is better then Elemental Fist. For low wisdoms - what's the point of an ability if it never goes off?

At level 6, I have a DC 16 (with a +2 stat bump item).

So, a quick scan of the bestiary yields forts between +6 and +12 for CR6 creatures - say +9 on average. So, they are saving on a 7 - that is, 70% of the time. A dedicated wizard might be as low as +4 or +5 fortitude at level 6 - a prime target, if a rare one.

On the other hand, in PFS when it is worth it to actually do a Stunning Fist, your target is CR Level +1 or two, meaning they save 75-80% of the time on average. A high wisdom build evens the odds to more reasonable.

Maybe it's just my bad luck that stunning fist never works out for me. However, elemental fist is just damage (ever so slight) which is guaranteed to work on a number of things. At higher levels, everything under the sun has high of ER making elemental fist a joke, but so is stunning fist.

Perfect strike certainly is much better if he focuses on his flurry of blows + melee weapon

Just to add to the original idea.

Take the Imp Trip as the bonus feat at 6th level and take Ki throw as a bonus at 10th level. qualifying for imp grapple is alot easier than qualifying for imp trip.

Also, have a look at punishing kick, possbily play a hungry ghost monk to get it instead of stunning fist?

The punishing kick is a normal damage attack, but can then either knock back or knock down the target. later levels add the two together.

Abraham spalding wrote:

Jamesblonde wrote:

Question:

Is Elemental Fist a good ability to have?

Stunning fist is better. Elemental fist -- I wouldn't take this feat unless I had a specific reason to. Perfect strike is a much better choice if you get the choice for it.

At higher levels, or if you have a higher wisdom, Stunning Blow is better then Elemental Fist. For low wisdoms - what's the point of an ability if it never goes off?

At level 6, I have a DC 16 (with a +2 stat bump item).

So, a quick scan of the bestiary yields forts between +6 and +12 for CR6 creatures - say +9 on average. So, they are saving on a 7 - that is, 70% of the time. A dedicated wizard might be as low as +4 or +5 fortitude at level 6 - a prime target, if a rare one.

On the other hand, in PFS when it is worth it to actually do a Stunning Fist, your target is CR Level +1 or two, meaning they save 75-80% of the time on average. A high wisdom build evens the odds to more reasonable.

Maybe it's just my bad luck that stunning fist never works out for me. However, elemental fist is just damage (ever so slight) which is guaranteed to work on a number of things. At higher levels, everything under the sun has high of ER making elemental fist a joke, but so is stunning fist.

Perfect strike certainly is much better if he focuses on his flurry of blows + melee weapon

I find anytime I can attempt to stun a target it's a good chance to take especially if it doesn't cost me a thing from my other actions.

Elemental fist does have the benefit of different energy types, and if you are specifically going monk of the four winds it's not the end of the world since you get more damage out of it.

As far as I can tell though perfect strike would work with grappling too, so I really like it as an alternative to stunning fist.

I like stunning fist for the alternate abilities a monk gets with it, and the fact that the stun condition is a real SoD at lower (and honestly mid) levels.

I find anytime I can attempt to stun a target it's a good chance to take especially if it doesn't cost me a thing from my other actions.

A good point.

Elemental fist does have the benefit of different energy types, and if you are specifically going monk of the four winds it's not the end of the world since you get more damage out of it.

Also true. My impression is that James ended up going Weapon Master.

As far as I can tell though perfect strike would work with grappling too, so I really like it as an alternative to stunning fist.

As far as I can tell, we both need to check our sources better ;)

You must use one of the following weapons to make the attack: kama, nunchaku,quarterstaff, sai, and siangham.

It would appear that James did his homework in selecting a quarterstaff.

I like stunning fist for the alternate abilities a monk gets with it, and the fact that the stun condition is a real SoD at lower (and honestly mid) levels.

I agree - stun is very powerful; I also like the sickened or staggered effects. They just have to work to be awesome :)