Quick Crafting: Suggestions Please

I am posting here to not hijack another thread.

It was brought up that crafting as-is is both too beneficial to the party and too dependant on downtime. I have found both of these to be true, especially with Magic Items and especially now with craft skills subbing for spellcasting (sort of, with a feat).

Would it be to the benefit of the game if some alternate crafting rules were in place?

Suggestion - Quick Crafting: By spending materials equal to the full value of the item being crafted, a character can craft a magic item at 5x the normal rate. Non-magical items can be crafted at 10x the normal rate.

Implications: Yes, they could just try to find the item and buy it. However, in games where that may not be possible, or at times where it would be inconveniant or draw too much attention, or when upgrading existing magic items, this rule would allow characters to quickly accomplish the task at increased cost. Yes, it means that, considering time, it would cost more to do things this way.

It may also allow non-magical items to spam. Now, everything everyone has is MW, despite being stuck in the village of Mudpit. That may not be too good. As a player I would spam some of the better alchemical items, which may also by a problem. However, this will not inflate the party wealth, but will allow for increased customization, even where lack of downtime may prevent it normally. And, if you have the time, you can still craft normally.

Opisions/Suggestions?

How about allowing a feat like this:

Craft Interruption
Prerequisite: Craft (any) 3
Benefit: WHen crafting an item (magical or mundain), you can split the time to craft the item up so long as the overall time is still kept. For example, to craft magical armor (assuming you already have the armor), a fighter can spend 4 days at 2 hours each day to enchant the item with a +1 bonus.

This way, losing a bit of sleep (or in the case of races that don't sleep as much, it gives them something to do other than just keeping watch) you can still make/enhance things without the downtime.

How about allowing a feat like this:

Craft Interruption
Prerequisite: Craft (any) 3
Benefit: WHen crafting an item (magical or mundain), you can split the time to craft the item up so long as the overall time is still kept. For example, to craft magical armor (assuming you already have the armor), a fighter can spend 4 days at 2 hours each day to enchant the item with a +1 bonus.
This way, losing a bit of sleep (or in the case of races that don't sleep as much, it gives them something to do other than just keeping watch) you can still make/enhance things without the downtime.

I kinda think that's already in the rules. Thus the rule for crafting while traveling is 4hrs, but only 2 actually count. So for item creation, every 4 days is 1000gp, or 250gp per day. This may be more a feat-worthy ability, though...

I kinda think that's already in the rules. Thus the rule for crafting while traveling is 4hrs, but only 2 actually count. So for item creation, every 4 days is 1000gp, or 250gp per day. This may be more a feat-worthy ability, though...

Well, this would allow you to take 8 days to make that magic armor +1 usign only 1 hour a day even. I mean, just about EVERYONE has 1 hour of time a day during adventuring. You could even possibly lower that time if you get assistance from someone else with this feat and the normal prerequisits to make the item....

Well, this would allow you to take 8 days to make that magic armor +1 usign only 1 hour a day even. I mean, just about EVERYONE has 1 hour of time a day during adventuring. You could even possibly lower that time if you get assistance from someone else with this feat and the normal prerequisits to make the item....

Exactly, but it still takes a while (1 week). Much more so for other items (36 weeks for a +6 stat item).

With this suggestion you don't get the benefit of 1/2 cost when crafting this way. You can do it, and it costs, but there are plenty of times that it would be preferable to not try and buy a brand new item or spend a few weeks crafting one. You pay for the speed.

Exactly, but it still takes a while (1 week). Much more so for other items (36 weeks for a +6 stat item).

Remember too, they don't HAVE to do it this way. I mean, let's say William the Fighter wants to enhance his weapon to +1 (2,000 gp). He starts it each night, spending 1 hour a night for a week (so, 7 nights, or 9 hours left). Then, suddenly he and his group are outside of the dungeon they are exploring in, and find a nice inn for some R&R. He spends 1 more hour that first night, then the whole next day (while everyone else is enjoying the elven wine that the tavern keeper just happened to have stored in the basement) is dedicated to his weapon. Now he's done, as he put his 16 hours in, and he has a shiny new +1 Scythe (I had a paladin named will who wielded a scythe, it was fun!)

I am not to wild about speeding up crafting but your suggestion of paying double to increase cost is a valid idea. The problem I have is that in my work I have seen that throwing more money at a project rarely speeds it up and some times slows it down.

My favorite solution for this is taken from the apprentices in Baldars Gate II. Your wizard can get 3 apprentices and they will make stuff for you. Some times they screw up but mostly you go adventure and when you come back they have a new item for you.

So get a few apprentices give them lessons in magic and set them up in town. You start a few projects and hand them off to your minions. When you come back they will either have it finished or they will have advanced it as far as they are capable and you can then get to work on the hard parts.

I am not to wild about speeding up crafting but your suggestion of paying double to increase cost is a valid idea. The problem I have is that in my work I have seen that throwing more money at a project rarely speeds it up and some times slows it down.

My favorite solution for this is taken from the apprentices in Baldars Gate II. Your wizard can get 3 apprentices and they will make stuff for you. Some times they screw up but mostly you go adventure and when you come back they have a new item for you.

So get a few apprentices give them lessons in magic and set them up in town. You start a few projects and hand them off to your minions. When you come back they will either have it finished or they will have advanced it as far as they are capable and you can then get to work on the hard parts.

This is a good option too :)

I actually like the idea that artificers had in the 3.5. They take Craft Homoculous (artificers get it free), build a Dedicated Wight, and once you start the magic item he can finish it for you using your stats/skills/etc. You can bring him along, hide him in a bag of holding or portable hole, and he can do the work for you. This works well for those times that you spend months away from home (or don't have a home).

I am not to wild about speeding up crafting but your suggestion of paying double to increase cost is a valid idea. The problem I have is that in my work I have seen that throwing more money at a project rarely speeds it up and some times slows it down.

In my experince its been you can have it done fast, cheap or well, pick 2.

I would like to see either increasing dc's or increasing costs both as options for reducing the time it takes to create items. I am however not certain on how to scale either.

So get a few apprentices give them lessons in magic and set them up in town. You start a few projects and hand them off to your minions. When you come back they will either have it finished or they will have advanced it as far as they are capable and you can then get to work on the hard parts.

The only problem here is taking ANOTHER feat for crafting (Leadership), upkeep of your guys (they need to eat, too), buying/renting the shop in town, and actually going back there now and again to get your stuff. Not happening in a LotR type campaign that's always on the move and going from location to location. And no, teleport is not a very viable solution, either.

The point of spending more money was more like buying the components in a higher state of readyness than you normally would. Instead of the woods, wires, and gems you would notmally get for the rod, you buy a almost-finished version. It costs more, but you don't have to spend the time putting it together. Just break out the magic circle and start going.

Also, more expensive components would be unavailable in smaller locales, due to the max gp guidelines for towns/cities. Less expensive components would be, but then you need to set up shop. If you want the Ring forged in a day, you better have everything ready to go.

I would like to see either increasing dc's or increasing costs both as options for reducing the time it takes to create items. I am however not certain on how to scale either.

I would want to avoid allowing faster item creation at too cheap a price. Hence the full cost. A higher DC works ok for crafted items. I already allow crafters to take 10 and just square the result to check progress for the week. For magic item creation, though, the DC is more just to make the item, and has no bearing on the time.

But, a higher DC may be in order to balance the ability. +5 too low for a x5 speed increase? How about +10?

The only problem here is taking ANOTHER feat for crafting (Leadership), upkeep of your guys (they need to eat, too), buying/renting the shop in town, and actually going back there now and again to get your stuff. Not happening in a LotR type campaign that's always on the move and going from location to location. And no, teleport is not a very viable solution, either.

Leadership would fulfill the requirement just fine but you could just as easily hire some one. If you don't want to take leadership toss out a few hundred gold a month to hire some lab assistants.

We had hirelings in D&D long before there was a leadership feat.

If you are not taking them into combat it should be relatively cheep to hire a few low level mages. Some wizards want adventure and some just want a place to write their thesis.

[Leadership would fulfill the requirement just fine but you could just as easily hire some one. If you don't want to take leadership toss out a few hundred gold a month to hire some lab assistants.

We had hirelings in D&D long before there was a leadership feat.

Yes, we did, and even THEN they sucked. Ever looked at the standard types of casters available at a given locale? Going to recruit some with item creation feats that AREN'T apprenticed to existing employers? Is their pay going to be significantly cheaper than paying full price for the item? Magic item creation isn't exactly "1sp/day" kind of specialized labor, you know. Not to mention what if they just run off with your item and sell it somewhere else, pocketing the full ammount. Hirelings are mercenary by definition.

Then we get back to having a permanent locale. If the story supports a home base, you can make the items yourself, or take leadership, with no problem. If you are on the move and don't know when you are getting back, then what?

It's not the case that I want item creation to be easier. It's the case I want to be able to do it outside downtime. And to not inflate the item creation usefulness, it costs the full base price.

I think a home base is almost a requirement for all but the most simplest of item creation. I can not envision Sauron forging the one ring by firelight on the trail to Mordor. There is just something wrong with that picture.

I think a home base is almost a requirement for all but the most simplest of item creation. I can not envision Sauron forging the one ring by firelight on the trail to Mordor. There is just something wrong with that picture.

But if you want to forge the iron crown of morgoth, you could craft the jewels and the crown. Or, doing it by firelight on the way to Angsbad, you simply take the existing silmiril are put it into an iron crown and start enchanting. Costs a heck of a lot more, but what do you expect? Someone else already did all the hard work for you (thank you Feanor...)

I suppose but you will need to toss the extra silmiril into the sky to make up for reduced crafting time.

I suppose but you will need to toss the extra silmiril into the sky to make up for reduced crafting time.

So, what x2 cost is too cheap? Like I said, it's the same as buying the item, only it takes longer and you know you are getting quality workmanship.

Is x5 speed too fast? I don't think so, but what about x4 or x3? And the only reason I suggested crafting at x10 is because the cost increases by x3 for crafts. But it sure is fast to put up that pre-fab home!

I don't know what you are looking for.

On one hand you want to pay x2 cost and the other you are complaining about a couple hundred gold a month for a hireling. That extra 25k for a cloak of displacement would pay rent on a lab for a long time.

Mirror, Mirror wrote:

I kinda think that's already in the rules. Thus the rule for crafting while traveling is 4hrs, but only 2 actually count. So for item creation, every 4 days is 1000gp, or 250gp per day. This may be more a feat-worthy ability, though...

Well, this would allow you to take 8 days to make that magic armor +1 usign only 1 hour a day even. I mean, just about EVERYONE has 1 hour of time a day during adventuring. You could even possibly lower that time if you get assistance from someone else with this feat and the normal prerequisits to make the item....

It's not a bad idea, it certainly lets players squeeze in a little crafting while they adventure.

But it's useless for items worth more than a few thousand gold.

Let's look at crafting a simple +2 longsword. This costs 8,000 gold for the enchantment part and takes 8 days (64 hours). Now if you split that up into 1 hour a day during your watch at night (assuming your adventuring buddies can sleep while you're banging your smithing hammer on your portable anvil), this is going to take you 64 days.

And that is 64 adventuring days. If you're, oh, say 5th level when you start, you might be 8th, 9th, or even 10th level when you're done, and during those 64 days you probably found a dozen magic weapons in various monster hoards, many of which were at least +2. After all that, will you really care that you finished making your +2 sword?

God forbid you want to craft a +5 sword, that's 400 days at only one hour per day.

My point is that while it's all fine and good to squeeze the crafting time in between other stuff you're doing, that only solves part of the problem. The bigger problem is that it takes way too long to craft anything you really want to use.

I don't know what you are looking for.

On one hand you want to pay x2 cost and the other you are complaining about a couple hundred gold a month for a hireling. That extra 25k for a cloak of displacement would pay rent on a lab for a long time.

It will have to pay for rent and labor for 50 days. Then, you need to go back to wherever you set it up and collect your cloak. And while that's been sitting for 50 days, you have been adventuring. Unless you are going to set up multiple item shops, crafting for more than just 1 party member is a year-long campaign.

If you could just buy the item, that's fine. However, it's not always possible to find the MagicMart with your specific item in stock. Look at the 100,000gp+ staves and rods. Good luck finding one of those, and building one is almost 3 1/2 months of time. Now, if you paid the full price, and crafted for 20 days, you get the item rather quick AND it didn't break the game.

So after some thought, I think this should be a feat:

Quick Crafting
Prereq: Any item creation feat
Benefit: By spending materials equal to the full value of the item being crafted, a character can craft a magic item at 5x the normal rate. Non-magical items can be crafted at 10x the normal rate.
Normal: Follow crafting rules from the skills section or magic item creation.

Issue 1: Is the prereq too low? Wizards can basically get it right off the bat (though it would only be for scrolls at that level). It is, admittedly, a major advantage, so it is probably worth the feat to whip up a major item in a month.

Issue 2: Should it not stack with the Eberron item creation feats? 25% off cost and time, for instance? I am rather suspicious of the 25% off cost myself, and the time seems to just be extravagent. However, that IS 2 more item feats, so a Wiz only interested in wondrous items would still spend 4 feats to potentially craft at 75% base price (+50% of regular item creation) at a rate of 2500gp/day. Alternatively, those feats could be off standard item creation rules, only giving a 12.5% cost reduction from base price at a rate of 2250gp/day. Significantly less of a bonus, but still tangeable.

I don't think it should be a feat. You have already paid for it by throwing extra cash down the well. I can see 5x speed for full cost.

Other than potions or other minor items or in an emergency I don't see how it would be worth it.

This would work well as a Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel.

I have recently updated the Skill tricks into my Pathfinder campaign house rules document but havent put them into play yet while I go over the altered skill uses.