I find that the best conversion measure is just to use CR. In pathfinder, a CR 5 creature is supposed to be on par with a level 5 creature.
Using that as a baseline it's pretty easy to figure out how many class levels you need to get to the right power level for this game.
As for attributes, take the base creatures stays and subtract 10 or 11 (depending on if the attribute is even or odd). What remains is the bonus or penalty to each ability.
Remember that creatures with high hit dice often have attribute bonuses from them that also need to be removed. (For example a giant doesn't have a +12 to strength. It has a +8 to strength and an extra +4 from hit dice)
I'm pretty sure that the game itself will be a learning experience as to how monsters-as-PCs work. It needs to be fun and cool, because all kinds of game mechanics may bend in the process.
I find that the best conversion measure is just to use CR. In pathfinder, a CR 5 creature is supposed to be on par with a level 5 creature.
That doesn't actually work, unfortunately. The balance as a PC is different than the balance as a monster.
One of the classic examples : something that can use wish once per hour as an SLA is roughly the same as an encounter as something that can use it once per year. Since nothing is expected to survive for a full hour in a hostile encounter with the PC group, that basically means it gets one wish granted.
That's why the monsters-as-PCs rules have gotten so complex over the years, as people have been trying to figure out how to get a fun and balanced game.
As for attributes, take the base creatures stays and subtract 10 or 11 (depending on if the attribute is even or odd). What remains is the bonus or penalty to each ability.
Remember that creatures with high hit dice often have attribute bonuses from them that also need to be removed. (For example a giant doesn't have a +12 to strength. It has a +8 to strength and an extra +4 from hit dice)
This, on the other hand, is a good mechanic that our crocodilian friend might want to think about. For Version II if nothing else....
This, on the other hand, is a good mechanic that our crocodilian friend might want to think about. For Version II if nothing else....As for attributes, take the base creatures stays and subtract 10 or 11 (depending on if the attribute is even or odd). What remains is the bonus or penalty to each ability.
Remember that creatures with high hit dice often have attribute bonuses from them that also need to be removed. (For example a giant doesn't have a +12 to strength. It has a +8 to strength and an extra +4 from hit dice)
This is generally a good mechanic, and one I tried to use at the start (and am still suggesting for lower CR monsters). Unfortunately, some of the more powerful creatures out there like succubi and nymphs have a very high single ability score that all their abilities scale with in a way that is a bit broken player side, which is why I had to change the mechanic for high-CR monsters to be able to balance with the rest of the party.
Meanwhile, a CR 5 creature is actually equivalent to a lvl 6 character, because of weird scalings I wasn't aware of two days ago. This means that a level 7 character with a +2 CR template is actually a CR 8 opponent, and roughly equivalent to a standard Ogre Mage in power (so an Ogre Mage with a 25-point buy would be significantly more powerful).
I should probably mention at this point that I majored in applied math, which helped me quite a bit with sou ding like I understand this and not as all with actually understanding it.
Mmm... Nice solid, straightforward character, Coffee.
Thank you. ;-)
This is generally a good mechanic, and one I tried to use at the start (and am still suggesting for lower CR monsters). Unfortunately, some of the more powerful creatures out there like succubi and nymphs have a very high single ability score that all their abilities scale with in a way that is a bit broken player side, which is why I had to change the mechanic for high-CR monsters to be able to balance with the rest of the party.
I think that's more a function of the rocket-tag of encounter design. High CR monsters are generally designed to hit hard instead of be survivable, so they end up unbalanced if you try to play them straight up as characters.
Interesting! But then a monster with PC gear is theoretically 1 CR higher.
Many abilities (like the wish example sighted) skew the CR system. Either those abilities need to be removed or those creatures need to be completely discounted as PC options.
The remainder work pretty well with a CR=ECL conversion.
I believe I will be a monster without any class levels.
I believe the submitted Erinyes, Nymph, Succubus, Mind Flayer and Ogre Mage might all be starting without character levels (or 1 at most).
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GM: "The mind flayer is oddly dressed"
"I would very much like to smash someone and then eat them. I hunger for both meat and violence."
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I believe I will be a monster without any class levels.
Welcome to the club and ... wow... this is actually starting to really feel as a community to me.
When I see people form other campaigns I tried to enter or people from games I'm actually playing right now.Jezebelle here ... and of course .. I'm playing a succubus.
Could you expect something else from the goddess of charm, chaos and sin?
Interesting! But then a monster with PC gear is theoretically 1 CR higher.
Not really. A monster is theoretically balanced with the gear that it has, which may be thrown off by adding "PC gear."
FREX, a hamadryad is a CR 15 encounter that gives you a +2 speed longbow, plus "additional treasure" totalling up to about 60,000gp. The +2 speed longbow alone is worth 50,000, so it's basically the longbow and vendor trash.
An advanced-template hamadryad basically has +2 to all stats and a base CR of 16.
If I gave the normal hamadryad PC gear, that would be another 250,000 gp worth of useful gear, which would probably blow her advanced companion out of the water. Two +4 stat bonus items of everything would give her effectively the advanced template, and she'd still have 120,000 gp of atop that. That would, for example, give her another +3 on the bow (+5 total) and she'd still be able to spend 30,000 on magic armor, consumables, &c. Or she could jump straight to the +8 bracers of armor and make herself 40% less hittable for only 64,000 of her 250,000.
So a hamadryad is CR 15, but a hamadryad with PC wealth is probably closer to 17, maybe even 18 if you buy the toys right to cover her weaknesses.
And that's part of why playing monsters-as-PCs is so hard to balance. Any sensible PC would look at a hamadryad and say "why isn't she wearing armor? Her AC is obviously too weak [which is it]." But rather than being something you can take advantage of as an opponent, that's something you can spend a small amount and fix.
Yes, I know who you are :P and glad to see you here too.
Doomed Hero, Tiny Coffee Golem, Tenro and I all go way back, so yes, this is totally an amazing community :)
(Sorry Ten, forgot about you initially! <3 ya lol)
Hehe, I can just imagine this happening.
GM:"So, four beautiful women and a Mind Flayer, all walk into the tavern you're in..."
Player: "Whut?"
GM: "The mind flayer is oddly dressed"
oh, how I laughed at the perfect imagery!
GM:"So, four beautiful women and a Mind Flayer, all walk into the tavern you're in..."
Wait, what? So, do I need to reflavor the high-charisma ghost summoner as a woman?
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GM: "The mind flayer is oddly dressed"
Don't hate the flaya, hate the game.....
I believe I will be a monster without any class levels.
and I think I will be the only one that is JUST class levels.
So we're allowed to adjust our ability scores up or down by 2 each if we're a monster above CR 5?
So if I have a Con of 19, I can boost it to 20? and the same with an Int of 13 and a Cha of 15? I hate uneven stats, lol
So we're allowed to adjust our ability scores up or down by 2 each if we're a monster above CR 5?
So if I have a Con of 19, I can boost it to 20? and the same with an Int of 13 and a Cha of 15? I hate uneven stats, lol
I think that was the idea, as long as the adjustments balance. So you could raise your Con and Cha, but drop your Int and Dex.
I scrapped my drider idea cause the numbers were taunting me and I went into a barbarian rage of such epic destruction I saw a glimpse of Nethys' eternal madness. That being said I got another guy I think will be fun and not turn my brains to paste for a certain hungry mind flayer. xD
Kalbrak Phaetre the Nightmare Devil Bound Morphling Sorcerer. Sheet should be done some time tomorrow. Here is a bit of what I have now. ;)
Kalbrak Phaetre seemed like a drow noble of middling sorcerous power. Yet he was little of what he seemed, not even being a pure blooded drow. Rather his blood wasn't pure in any sense of the word. In the past the drow created life to serve their whim, even today they practice their fleshwarping arts if not to the extent that they once did. For their memories are long and their mistakes felt deeply over countless years. One of their better known mistakes concerning life manipulation are the vegepygmy race. Still with every generation and boundless arrogance their came a house with grand plans and ambitions. They not only mastered their own expertise in alchemy and fleshwarping but collected and stole secret knowledge from the likes of devils, surfacers, and even cultist of Lamashtu. Their work and effort would produce the unique creature that would be known as Kalbrak. Physically appearing as a drow yet without the abilities of even a low born drow. He was considered a failure, while he did have a few merits the thing they had worked for was too weak and incomplete as far as they were concerned. They made Kalbrak into a slave and future warping material. But his blood, a mixture of countless creatures from different parts of the world and planes, awoke and reacted to his mind in strange ways unpredictable to the drow who had made him. Before long they found themselves plagued by disturbing dreams and a seemingly unkillable experiment run amok. In the end the house fell for unknown reasons as far as the rest of the city was concerned, it's lone survivor was a distant cousin called Kalbrak. So was Kalbrak the last of House Phaetre, leaving the city shortly after to travel.
Kalbrak does not think he is a natural being, he has a strong desire to "perfect" himself because of this, considering himself as incomplete. To that end he dealt with devils for more power, knowledge, and the ability to stabilize himself as his lifespan was unstable. Formerly giving him bouts of energy and near death at random. He seeks souls as payment for his power and currency for continued dealings with hell. Ever trying to make himself whole, better, and one day the ability to breed true.
Yes, I know who you are :P and glad to see you here too.
Doomed Hero, Tiny Coffee Golem, Tenro and I all go way back, so yes, this is totally an amazing community :)
(Sorry Ten, forgot about you initially! <3 ya lol)
Indeed.
Basically I'm a fairly standard race with a PRC and a template.
Breed true with ... whom exactly?
So I guess half elves, half orcs, mixed human ethnicities, and such don't exist. Sense you know their not the same and mixing with races is just crazy talk. Yep I get a little cranky after 19 hours up so forgive me. x)
His blood is currently too unstable, it won't take to anything. Even freak lab monsters want to have little monsters to try and kill them. Keeps them on their toes and their senses sharp. Also gets you right there when the little tikes try to stab in the neck for the first time.
I think it's time I black out before I start giving his future children names and plans to overthrow their father. ;3
Indeed.Yes, I know who you are :P and glad to see you here too.
Doomed Hero, Tiny Coffee Golem, Tenro and I all go way back, so yes, this is totally an amazing community :)
(Sorry Ten, forgot about you initially! <3 ya lol)
heh, just saw it was edited. it's alright, i was probably the newest addition, with my measly 8.4K posts to your 10.7K
Finally settled on a concept! Too many cool ideas to think over.
Coming soon to a thread near you: Tar'jub the Imp, Subjugator of Mages and his Pet Wizard, Ryal Voidcaller. It's the story of a brutish imp and the bumbling wizard who had the misfortune of summoning him.
Working on fluff and crunch now, will probably have it up tommorow sometime. Will be an imp fighter and his rogue/wizard sidekick (cohort via leadership)
Btw Ten, this might be a good place to start for your concept Raktavarna
Edit: Before I do up my CS, I need to know if I'll be able to take a level or not.
Thinking either Ranger or Inquisitor.
Yeah, I thought about that monster as well for Tenro. Reminds me of a scene from
The Shadow...
Btw Ten, this might be a good place to start for your concept Raktavarna
Edit: Before I do up my CS, I need to know if I'll be able to take a level or not.
Thinking either Ranger or Inquisitor.
yeah that is pretty cool.
only real downside i see is that its change shape ends when it takes any action.
Perhaps you can work around that with TB, as its not supposed to be used for a PC, and definitely not in the way you intend as well.