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All six adventures sound cool, but I think I actually like the sound of the first one the best.
Also, the placeholder art is very cool; where's it from?
The green lantern bearer is a ghost from classic horrors revisited I think. Not sure about the background - maybe soemthing from Council of Thieves?
This AP sounds very much in the vein of my favorite D&D setting, Ravenloft--even the Rule of Fear book is coming around the same time...
I love horror, but my players often don't.
This is going to be very sweet.
Wow, I can´t wait to see this AP´s starting.
Yeah... I definitely see how the APs are working for me. Based on everything I've seen so far, the 'second AP set' are far superior than the 'first AP set', i.e.:
CotCT, LoF, Kingmaker, Carrion Crown
>
RotRL, SD, CoT, Serpent's Skull
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So who are the iconics for this one going to be then?We actually just finalized the iconics for this one yesterday. They'll be:
Merisiel (rogue)
Seoni (sorcerer)
Seelah (paladin)
Feiya (witch)
I was under the impression that you were avoiding reusing Iconic's over two consecutive Ap and isn't Merisiel one of the iconics being used in serpents skull?
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I was under the impression that you were avoiding reusing Iconic's over two consecutive Ap and isn't Merisiel one of the iconics being used in serpents skull?So who are the iconics for this one going to be then?We actually just finalized the iconics for this one yesterday. They'll be:
Merisiel (rogue)
Seoni (sorcerer)
Seelah (paladin)
Feiya (witch)
I'm more interested in Feiya actually being in an AP - she's an APG Iconic, after all, and I thought we were never really going to see them used all that much. Also, I guess she's going to be the main healer of the group. Seelah will be too busy tanking, and keeping Merisiel from stealing and/or stabbing things.
Edit: And does this mean that Jade Regent, or whatever AP Cycle 9 is will have an all-male cast? Maybe Alain, Harsk, Lem, and Seltiyel?
Creative Director
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I was under the impression that you were avoiding reusing Iconic's over two consecutive Ap and isn't Merisiel one of the iconics being used in serpents skull?So who are the iconics for this one going to be then?We actually just finalized the iconics for this one yesterday. They'll be:
Merisiel (rogue)
Seoni (sorcerer)
Seelah (paladin)
Feiya (witch)
We were... up until yesterday. We were also not intending to use APG iconics either.
We're abandoning those restrictions as of yesterday.
All bets are off, now!
We were... up until yesterday. We were also not intending to use APG iconics either. We're abandoning those restrictions as of yesterday. All bets are off, now!
Woot!
Bring on the witchy goodness!
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Creative Director
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Edit: And does this mean that Jade Regent, or whatever AP Cycle 9 is will have an all-male cast? Maybe Alain, Harsk, Lem, and Seltiyel?
Nope. I've seen ENOUGH all-male adventuring parties over the past several years.
Whatever the next AP is will probably be back to a gender-balanced mix, but we don't have to make that decision for about six months.
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I was under the impression that you were avoiding reusing Iconic's over two consecutive Ap and isn't Merisiel one of the iconics being used in serpents skull?So who are the iconics for this one going to be then?We actually just finalized the iconics for this one yesterday. They'll be:
Merisiel (rogue)
Seoni (sorcerer)
Seelah (paladin)
Feiya (witch)We were... up until yesterday. We were also not intending to use APG iconics either.
We're abandoning those restrictions as of yesterday.
All bets are off, now!
Grah! Can't wait for Imrijka to get some spotlight time.
We were... up until yesterday. We were also not intending to use APG iconics either.We're abandoning those restrictions as of yesterday.
All bets are off, now!
I hate to be a downer, but back when APG was first announced, I expressed concern about Paizo changing its focus to additional "crunchy" products. I thought Paizo risked splitting its focus in a way that might impact adventure and setting products. At the time, I was roundly poo-pooed on these boards.
Now:
* The Guide to the Inner Sea Region has been delayed in favor of two crunchy books; and (worse, imo)
* APG content is showing up in Pathfinder. Part of the beauty of a fresh, new system like Pathfinder is the lack of system bloat. Now, with APG iconics showing up in Pathfinder, can APG NPCs be far off? And if APG ownership is to be assumed for the use of Pathfinder adventure paths and modules, then it is core in everything but name.
I hope I'm wrong, but the inclusion of APG content (no matter how well liked) in adventure products does not bode well for avoiding system bloat.
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We were... up until yesterday. We were also not intending to use APG iconics either.We're abandoning those restrictions as of yesterday.
All bets are off, now!
I hate to be a downer, but back when APG was first announced, I expressed concern about Paizo changing its focus to additional "crunchy" products. I thought Paizo risked splitting its focus in a way that might impact adventure and setting products. At the time, I was roundly poo-pooed on these boards.
Now:
* The Guide to the Inner Sea Region has been delayed in favor of two crunchy books; and (worse, imo)
* APG content is showing up in Pathfinder. Part of the beauty of a fresh, new system like Pathfinder is the lack of system bloat. Now, with APG iconics showing up in Pathfinder, can APG NPCs be far off? And if APG ownership is to be assumed for the use of Pathfinder adventure paths and modules, then it is core in everything but name.I hope I'm wrong, but the inclusion of APG content (no matter how well liked) in adventure products does not bode well for avoiding system bloat.
Then you're not going to like Pathfinder #37. There's a Witch NPC, although she is detailed the way monsters from Tome of Horrors Revisted are, ie, a full stat block requiring no reference to the APG at all.
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Kind of agree with Bugleyman It's one thing to include an Npc witch but quite another to include one as a pregen. Also (and this may sound like a silly concern) having a choose whatever we feel like system could lead to certain Iconics being sidelined (In all honesty I feel this has already happened to an extent).
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Creative Director
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I hate to be a downer, but back when APG was first announced, I expressed concern about Paizo changing its focus to additional "crunchy" products. I thought Paizo risked splitting its focus in a way that might impact adventure and setting products. At the time, I was roundly poo-pooed on these boards.
Now:
* The Guide to the Inner Sea Region has been delayed in favor of two crunchy books; and (worse, imo)
* APG content is showing up in Pathfinder. Part of the beauty of a fresh, new system like Pathfinder is the lack of system bloat. Now, with APG iconics showing up in Pathfinder, can APG NPCs be far off? And if APG ownership is to be assumed for the use of Pathfinder adventure paths and modules, then it is core in everything but name.I hope I'm wrong, but the inclusion of APG content (no matter how well liked) in adventure products does not bode well for avoiding system bloat.
Part of putting the witch into the adventure as an iconic is an experiment... but we've already started putting APG content into our adventure paths; there's APG content among the NPCs of Serpent's Skull. I have faith in myself and my team that we'll be able to do this without "sacrificing" the flavor of the adventures, but until folks see what we're doing, none of us will know if we've succeeded.
One big thing to keep in mind is that ALL of our rulebooks are 100% open content. So even if we're slow getting those rules up online at paizo.com for free, there'll be fan sites out there that have the content up VERY quickly. So as long as one has access to the internet, the rules for all of our rulebooks are never more than a few clicks away.
Personally, I'm VERY concerned by system bloat. Here at Paizo, I'm relatively often in the "Let's do fewer books!" camp, both because of a fear of system bloat and because the pace at which we've been doing books so far is kind of grueling and exhausting. But there's also the "real world" side of things, which is that if we slow down our book lines, we make less money and we frustrate a lot of subscribers. Finding a happy medium point between these two extremes is something we're constantly striving for as a result.
In any event, I look forward to feedback about the APG content we're putting in Serpent's Skull (and eventually, the Bestiary 2 content we'll be using). And the GameMastery Guide content, for that matter. If the feedback is universally negative... we'll ramp back. But "doom and gloom" predictions about fears and worries before the actual product has had time to sink in... or months BEFORE a product comes out so that anyone even has a chance to see how it all works out... is perhaps not as constructive.
So, in short, I hear you regarding worries of "system bloat," and if we get to a point where things seem too bloated, I hope to hear from everyone. Likewise, though, I hope to hear from folks if the LIKE having all this additional material. If 97 people love APG and Bestiary 2 content in their AP, but only the 3 people who hate it tell us... it'll look like EVERYONE hates it to us!
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I like that the APG classes are appearing in the various adventures and aren't just being left on the wayside to be forgotten. It's good to see the new classes being supported with more appearances and material. I'm reasonably sure that Paizo has said that they'll be printing full statblocks for NPCs (and presumably the PC) that use APG content, meaning that you won't have to have the APG to use them in the adventure.
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Creative Director
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Kind of agree with Bugleyman It's one thing to include an Npc witch but quite another to include one as a pregen. Also (and this may sound like a silly concern) having a choose whatever we feel like system could lead to certain Iconics being sidelined.
Part of what I get paid for is to "know" what folks want to see and what they want us to do. If there's a fear that an iconic gets sidelined, it's my job to know that fear's out there and to take steps to fix it.
As for the difference between NPCs and pregens... that brings up a good question. I'd like to know if ANYone uses the pregenerated NPCs as characters for the APs. The primary reason we run their stats at all is because that was a HUGE and CONSTANT request during the Dungeon magazine days—folks always wanted to know what the stats were for the iconics we used for the magazine. They were annoyed and startled to find out that there WERE no stats for them, and that in most cases the Dungeon iconics didn't even have names. They were solely used to give the magazine a visual cohesiveness and to act as shortcuts for us asking our dozens of different artists to paint class-specific characters without having to re-explain what a wizard can and can't wear or do.
If folks primarily just want to see the iconics' stats to know what they are, then that's an ENTIRELY different use than if folks are using them as actual PCs. Or as NPCs, for that matter.
So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?
Then you're not going to like Pathfinder #37. There's a Witch NPC, although she is detailed the way monsters from Tome of Horrors Revisted are, ie, a full stat block requiring no reference to the APG at all.
Actually, I'm fine with that. As long as all the needed information beyond the core is included, then no problem. What I do think is a mistake, however, is content that requires the APG to fully use. As I have a hard time imagining that an (extremely brief) pre-gen write up will include all the needed info to actually play the character, especially at higher levels, I'm concerned. The last thing Pathfinder (or the entire hobby, for that matter) needs is higher barriers to entry.
Edit: It looks like James has addressed my concerns. I don't think I'm exactly full of "doom and gloom," so much as I am full of the desire to never see the return of the bad old days of having to cart around 12 hardback books. Since what little play time I have now is devoted to Pathfinder Society, perhaps I shouldn't worry unless Joshua starts adding to the Core Assumption.
In any case, thanks for listening.
I hope I'm wrong, but the inclusion of APG content (no matter how well liked) in adventure products does not bode well for avoiding system bloat.
Personally, I think inclusion of the occasional non-core, whether APG, Gamemastery Guide, Bestiary 2 or new material from the AP itself, is a good thing. I don't want to see 100% core AP's. For the record, I am concerned about system bloat, but so far I think Paizo is doing a very good job of not releasing new crunch at a measured pace rather than "from the firehose" approach that was the hallmark of WOTC with 3.5.
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So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?
I've grabbed them once or twice to use as random NPCs of their class when I needed a statblock off-the-fly, applying my own tweaks to account for my group's power level difference from the expected norm.
I seem to remember hearing a story where one person has a group of noble adventurers hire them as a group of mercenaries to handle a mission. That struck me as an amusing and creative solution to a problem.
Most of my group loves making characters, though, and the characters in the group tend, for the most part, to be much more powergamed than the iconics, so no one in my group has ever used them as pregens.
Knowing the stats of the iconics is kind of interesting, though I don't need those quite as much as those of various important figures who are more fixed in the setting (as opposed to the iconics, who have backgrounds but can be situated anywhere).
Overall, they aren't something I use a ton, and other material would probably be more useful to me, but I think their presence might be helpful to new groups or pick-up games that have a limited time frame, so I'm not advocating for their removal.
I hate to be a downer, but back when APG was first announced, I expressed concern about Paizo changing its focus to additional "crunchy" products. I thought Paizo risked splitting its focus in a way that might impact adventure and setting products. At the time, I was roundly poo-pooed on these boards.
Now:
* The Guide to the Inner Sea Region has been delayed in favor of two crunchy books; and (worse, imo)
* APG content is showing up in Pathfinder. Part of the beauty of a fresh, new system like Pathfinder is the lack of system bloat. Now, with APG iconics showing up in Pathfinder, can APG NPCs be far off? And if APG ownership is to be assumed for the use of Pathfinder adventure paths and modules, then it is core in everything but name.I hope I'm wrong, but the inclusion of APG content (no matter how well liked) in adventure products does not bode well for avoiding system bloat.
Part of putting the witch into the adventure as an iconic is an experiment... but we've already started putting APG content into our adventure paths; there's APG content among the NPCs of Serpent's Skull. I have faith in myself and my team that we'll be able to do this without "sacrificing" the flavor of the adventures, but until folks see what we're doing, none of us will know if we've succeeded.
One big thing to keep in mind is that ALL of our rulebooks are 100% open content. So even if we're slow getting those rules up online at paizo.com for free, there'll be fan sites out there that have the content up VERY quickly. So as long as one has access to the internet, the rules for all of our rulebooks are never more than a few clicks away.
Personally, I'm VERY concerned by system bloat. Here at Paizo, I'm relatively often in the "Let's do fewer books!" camp, both because of a fear of system bloat and because the pace at which we've been doing books so far is kind of grueling and exhausting. But there's also the "real world" side of things, which is that if we slow down our book...
I would caution against listening solely to customer feedback, simply because some people may not stop to consider the implications of what they're advocating, or even know for sure what they want. I'm reminded of a case I studied as an undergraduate, in which something like 99+% of people surveyed said they'd never have a need for a personal computer. Of course, the same could be said of me. ;)
In any case, thanks again for your response.
So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?
Nothing more than ignoring (and sighing at the space they're taking up).
The primary reason we run their stats at all is because that was a HUGE and CONSTANT request during the Dungeon magazine days—folks always wanted to know what the stats were for the iconics we used for the magazine.
Unbelievable (and inexplicable). And now we're stuck with them in every single AP book.
So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?
They're kinda handy to use as NPCs, and interesting to read, but I can't say I've ever used them as pregens (over the course of two adventure paths, and probably two or three Paizo mods).
So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?
In my group, absolutely nothing. I'd much rather see a page of just about anything instead of the Iconic Pre Gens. Dont' get me wrong, I generally like the Iconics, I just don't need to see their stats in my AP. Web enhancement or Paizo blog would be a much better place IMHO.
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I end up using the Iconics every now and again as fill-in PCs, or else as potential rivals to the PCs, but they aren't a vital piece of material. Honestly, a 64 or 128-page "Guide to the Iconics" with stat blocks at every few levels and backstories for them all would make the 2 pages per AP issue expendable.
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(In all honesty I feel this has already happened to an extent).
I should expand on this If you look at all the books with Iconics in them I seem to see certain ones be more prevalent than others especially in regards to the first four Iconics who being the first four have had a lot page time than the others. I guess what im getting at is that it would be nice to see more of the other ones.
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They are handy as NPCs, very handy if you have someone walk up and want to jump in for a session. (Assuming you play in a public place such as your FLGS, like we do.)
Could also be nice if someone brings a friend to watch a more private game, you can just hand 'em a pregen and say, "Why don't you join us"?
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Creative Director
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So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?Nothing more than ignoring (and sighing at the space they're taking up).
The primary reason we run their stats at all is because that was a HUGE and CONSTANT request during the Dungeon magazine days—folks always wanted to know what the stats were for the iconics we used for the magazine.Unbelievable (and inexplicable). And now we're stuck with them in every single AP book.
It's explicable when you stop, think about it, and realize we're building the game not for you, but for all of us. Paizo and customer alike.
If it's that big of a deal, fine. Sorry we're taking the AP in a direction you don't approve of.
So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?...
I seem to remember hearing a story where one person has a group of noble adventurers hire them as a group of mercenaries to handle a mission. That struck me as an amusing and creative solution to a problem.
That was tbug's Curse of the Crimson Throne. :)
I've also used the stats on occasion to serve as a random NPC in the crowd, but I'm not sure that's too necessary anymore now that the NPC Guide is out.
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So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?
I use them when I need my eyes to glaze over and me to stop reading the book, mostly. I'd rather see those two pages go to an additional monster, or if they MUST be iconic related, a two-page fiction vignette relating to the AP - the journal of Queen Merisiel would've been welcomed in the back of Kingmaker, for instance.
So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?
Everything from temporary replacement PCs to playtesting of upcoming sessions in my homebrew. Being able to grab middle-of-the-road stat blocks is amazingly handy, especially when the players attack an NPC I hadn't thought to stat up.
To weigh in on the witch iconic being used in an AP, I'm thrilled to see that the APG content isn't being excluded from other product lines. So often in 3.5, a new class/magic system/etc would be introduced in a hardcover and then never used anywhere else. No published adventures would feature it and no other books (except brief mention in the Magic Item Compendium) would reference it. Make me feel like most of the content was throwaway used only to sell a book. The fact that Paizo is keeping the subsidiary content alive and in people's minds makes me very happy.
The Mighty Mike Kortes!?
Mighty Mike?!!?! YES! \m/
Edit: Also, I agree with what Karelzarath said. :D
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So... what do folks use those stats for, anyway?
James, I fear this is a sore spot for me. I don't think that using the iconics as pre-generated characters is a good move overall, and I think the particular decisions Paizo has made regarding them was ill-considered.
First off, I was surprised that their stats are so permanent. I really didn't expect to see the "9th Level Rogue" from one AP to have the same stats as the "9th Level Rogue" from a module, let alone as the "9th Level Rogue" in an unrelated AP.
We know that the "Merisiel" who adventured through the Legacy of Fire wasn't the same character as the one who encountered the Rise of the Runelords. There's no reason that she (nor any of the other LoF iconics) shouldn't have been carrying around the gear won throughout the adventure. (Were they selling it all for half-price, so they could buy generic stuff?) Likewise, I don't understand why her skills, feats, and even attributes, didn't reflect the environment and conditions of the AP.
So, while I understand why Seelah should look the same from one use to another, I don't understand why --for example-- the Seelah in "The Demon Within" doesn't have a stronger Charisma than the character in other settings.
Secondly, I am at a loss to explain the choice of which iconics to assign to a given product or AP. The choice of a Lawful Evil character like Seltyiel for Council of Thieves baffles me. He's the last character I'd think to give to a new player, and I can't imagine him going through the entire AP, siding with the party.
So, I think they're used poorly. Given that, I don't use them at all.
It's explicable when you stop, think about it, and realize we're building the game not for you, but for all of us.
No... it's still inexplicable that so many fans like them so much that they made it in every book of every AP.
Sorry we're taking the AP in a direction you don't approve of.
"Taking"? They've been in there since the beginning!