Initiative combatant / non combatant question

Gentlemen,

I’ll dive right in:

I GM a party of 6 people and last night I had a robbery distraction-extraction scenario planned. The party was walking in the city in a 1-2-2-1 formation (their choice after asking) and I ruled that the 25 and the next round 26 performance bluffs (The distraction) kept the front half of the party too busy with two passionate guys arguing and trying pull the bystanders in to notice anything happening in the back.

In the back the last person was tased and grabbed. Only one person in the back saw it happen. I was deep into storytelling before I got a reminder of the initiative system. IMHO I felt that the front half was not aware nor attacked so they should not roll initiative and that got on the wrong side of one of the players. He claims that in combat everybody gets to roll initiative (always!). I did not want to slow down the pace and knew I had read somewhere that if you are not aware nor attacked you are not in combat so I pressed forward.

We finished the night, the event was handled and passed. The next day I did some reading as in the moment I didn’t want to stop everything. I found that in rule one of the combat cycle (core rulebook page 178), it reads:

1.When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

So I send this ruling to the player exclaiming that to be a combatant you need to be aware or attacked. And He just texted back that he has never been more sure and that I am interpreting the meaning of the pathfinder ruleset wrongly.

As English is not our first language I do want to know am I wrong or am I reading it right?

PS: if more background is needed I can supply but it didn’t feel helpful to post a wall of text.

This is the sub-forum for organised play, the Rules forum might be more appropriate, but I see why you'd post in the GM section.

Basically, if there's a mini on the map, you should roll initiative for it. Or, if you're playing without a map, anyone specifically pointed out as being present should roll initiative. Even if people aren't necessarily aware of combat breaking out, if there's a reasonable chance they might join at some point (they're at negative HP, far away but in telepathic contact with someone and capable of teleporting, and so on), roll initiative for them. You can abstract big crowds as being on the same initiative (so you don't have to roll separately for a crowd of 50 people, for instance). If people get added into a fight later on (someone says "I'll yell out for help," for instance), roll initiative and someone appears on that initiative.

In this case, it sounds like your friend is right. Even though the NPCs weren't an immediate threat, they could become one. As they were being fascinated, they would've skipped their turn until someone snaps them out of it. Or, in this case, roll initiative for them as soon as they snap out of it.

I do want to commend you for not wanting to stop the game for a rules discussion. You did what you thought was right and everyone had fun. Not everyone does that, so props to you.

So....you are right, and so is the player. Yes, in combat everyone should roll initiative, but there is also the surprise round, in which only aware combatants can act (how ambushes develop....even if you have a 30 initiative, you cannot act as you are not aware of the guy hiding in the bushes. One way to do it to avoid a player who has a high initiative from meta-gaming ("I glance back to see what the others are doing") is to roll initiatives in secret, though in my experience, players like to roll things themselves whenever they can. The other way to do it is to do the surprise round first and only have those who are aware roll initiative, then the others can roll when they become aware and slot in.

If the uninvolved PCs don't succeed on a PERCEPTION check to notice what is happening, there is no need for initiative. Just be sure to take their actual perceptions into account before making such a declaration or they will quickly start to think you're fudging the game too much.

Everyone should have rolled initiative.

For one thing, even if you decide that they don't know what is happening, as soon as the person the did know yells something out, they are now aware and are going to need to know when they can act.

Pathfinder as a game is not really geared well toward the type of scenario you describe. Absent stealth (which is broken when an attack is made) it is assumed that everyone with line of sight to something is aware of it just fine (no facing or anything like that.)

Without some sort of special ability, the kidnappers plan could not succeed based on the rules of the game. This is not necessarily optimal, as the disable someone and kidnap them without being scene is a trope, but if you want to incorporate it you are probably going to need some house rules, which is always tricky, and really your players deserve to know about them ahead of time, and giving them these rules right before a kidnapping is going to mess up the narrative surprise.

I will say though that generally players hate being told that they can't act more than just about anything else. Making sure that you find a way that they at least get to make some sort of check when their turn would come around helps out a lot.

Thanks for the help all!

I've taken up the most general consesus that all should have rolled yet unless you are aware of the combat you just cannot automaticly respond.

I understand the value for players tot might not fight to have a small window within that scenario. so they get to act, else they would have no place at all and I would have to fudge their action in somehow.

I'll just have to manage the understandable urge of players that wil try to join in on a fight they are not aware of.

The way that I've always seen initiative handled is, if you're aware of what's going on then you don't get to roll. If your character becomes aware of the fight later then, at that point you get to roll your initiative and can act on the next turn at the initiative count that was rolled.

In cases where someone really wants to act as soon as possible. We've typically allowed the player to go ahead and roll initiative and then on that player's turn they can roll a perception check (often at some appropriate penalty) to see if they notice what's going on. Until they notice they do nothing on their turn and we move on.

It sounds like with your group the second approach will go over better. Even though the net result is typically the same.