Holy Ice (Javelins) + Divine Power ...?

So you cast Holy Ice and summon a bunch of ice javelins while you have Divine Power active. Do the ice javelins count as 'weapons' and get the weapon damage roll bonus off of Divine Power, making a generally lousy spell into something potentially rather dangerous?

The javelins do indeed appear to be weapons, this looks legit.
Add Fate's Favored and Rime Spell for fun.

Seems to work.
And I like the rime spell idea.

Should benefit from inspire courage, flagbearer, point blank shot and similar, too.

Yeah, I was thinking Evangelist battle cleric with Inspire Courage and Divine Power / Fate's Favored, possibly Rime. Would be really nice to have a lethal, no-save ranged spell option like that - just use level 1 slots to fill up on enough holy water and get ready to shred stuff. Hell of an ugly surprise for a flying, mirror imaged wizard.

Usually additional damage from spells and inspire courage for your weapon attacks assume YOU are wielding it. You are not wielding these javelins, they are being thrown by the spell, I'd say no weapon damage modifiers from other spells on holy ice. Interesting question though.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think no. You are not actually attacking with the weapons yourself. They hurl themselves at the target, and the spells rules tell you to roll an attack using BAB+wis, which is certainly not a normal attack roll for a weapon. It also creates a number of javelins equal to your cater level and they all attack in the same round. Potentially far more than you could normally do with an attack.

The more I think on it, the more I think no.

I am not too familiar with the spell but it sounds about as confusing as that storm of blades from People of the Sands. Can you use Hammer The Gap with it?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think no. You are not actually attacking with the weapons yourself. They hurl themselves at the target, and the spells rules tell you to roll an attack using BAB+wis, which is certainly not a normal attack roll for a weapon. It also creates a number of javelins equal to your cater level and they all attack in the same round. Potentially far more than you could normally do with an attack.

The more I think on it, the more I think no.

Check out this FAQ, which says that rays as well as other "weapon-like spells" are affected by things (like Inspire Courage) that give bonuses to "weapon damage rolls".

Are you going to argue that a spell which literally creates javelins (it doesn't even say "javelin-like", they ARE javelins) is somehow less "weapon-like" than the things which explicitly DO get these sorts of bonuses?

Compare:

Ray attacks: BAB+Dex and (if they do hp damage) they definitely benefit from bard song etc.

This spell: Casting stat + BAB. Similar to spiritual weapon, which seems like it wouldn't get bardsong...

No hard RAW answer, but I'm with Claxon, seems like a no.

Well Jiggy. Let's say we had a spell that creates Javelins. You do this while under the effects of divine power. You then hand conjured javelins to a friend who uses them. Does he get that benefit?

The questions isn't whether they are weapons, but whether the abnormal attack can benefit from buffs on you.

Normal rays, as in that FAQ, call for ranged touch attacks.

This spells calls for an attack of bab + wis... doesn't say ANYTHING else adds to it.

Compare:

Ray attacks: BAB+Dex and (if they do hp damage) they definitely benefit from bard song etc.

This spell: Casting stat + BAB. Similar to spiritual weapon, which seems like it wouldn't get bardsong...

No hard RAW answer, but I'm with Claxon, seems like a no.

Spiritual weapon does get bardsong Inspire Courage, actually. See the FAQ that I linked directly above your post.

So, every other weapon-esque, attack-roll-granting, hit-point-damaging magical effect in the game gets bonuses from things like Inspire Courage and divine favor. I see no basis for saying this works differently.

Beopere wrote:

Compare:

Ray attacks: BAB+Dex and (if they do hp damage) they definitely benefit from bard song etc.

This spell: Casting stat + BAB. Similar to spiritual weapon, which seems like it wouldn't get bardsong...

No hard RAW answer, but I'm with Claxon, seems like a no.

Spiritual weapon does get bardsong Inspire Courage, actually. See the FAQ that I linked directly above your post.

So, every other weapon-esque, attack-roll-granting, hit-point-damaging magical effect in the game gets bonuses from things like Inspire Courage and divine favor. I see no basis for saying this works differently.

Oh man then I'm sold. Seems pretty powerful.

Seems pretty powerful.

Not really.

Remember, this is a 5th-level spell: right up there with baleful polymorph, cloudkill, dominate person, and teleport. Do you think that 9d6+9 damage (with each miss against normal AC costing you 1d6+1) is comparable to the above spells?

Boosting it with divine favor begins to bring it close, but I know my cleric—who already casts divine favor by default—never gave it a second thought. He decided if he needed something dead that badly he'd just plane shift it for the same spell level.

Boosting it with divine favor begins to bring it close, but I know my cleric—who already casts divine favor by default—never gave it a second thought. He decided if he needed something dead that badly he'd just plane shift it for the same spell level.

I would agree that its not outrageously powerful when boosted this way, but after browsing level 5 spell options for a battle cleric that isn't going to have a ton of confidence in his save dc, this one seemed like a pretty great way to really hurt something without having to reach it and/or touch it and/or beat its save. It passes the 'battle-caster tactical test' of 'is this enough better than charging?' with flying colors when not only the damage per javelin but the attack roll is getting a massive boost. Its certainly not what a casting foe wants to get slapped with.

I'm still not convinced Jiggy. The FAQ is about Inspire Courage which affects all allies near enough to you. Divine Power affects the individual caster.

I'm not convinced that the reason Inspire Courage works isn't because it's essentially an AOE buff that also happens to apply to the weapon like spells.

It's not clear, and I don't find that argument convincing enough.

I'm still not convinced Jiggy. The FAQ is about Inspire Courage which affects all allies near enough to you. Divine Power affects the individual caster.

I'm not convinced that the reason Inspire Courage works isn't because it's essentially an AOE buff that also happens to apply to the weapon like spells.

It's not clear, and I don't find that argument convincing enough.

Unless you're arguing that Spiritual Weapon is a creature, there's no way Inspire Courage would give it a boost directly.

What he's 'arguing', or really just pointing out from the FAQ:

Question: "Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

Answer: "Yes ... The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells."

The FAQ is about spells and effects that 'affect weapons'. Per this FAQ, if an Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle fires Scorching Ray with Divine Power active, each ray is a 'weapon' and is affected. If rays of energy or any of the other examples they list qualify as 'weapons', then it follows that a created javelin certainly does.

I'm actually surprised to see something this explicit and this inclusive, but there it is. Thanks to the Green One for the link.

What he's 'arguing', or really just pointing out from the FAQ:

Question: "Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

Answer: "Yes ... The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells."

The FAQ is about spells and effects that 'affect weapons'. Per this FAQ, if an Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle fires Scorching Ray with Divine Power active, each ray is a 'weapon' and is affected. If rays of energy or any of the other examples they list qualify as 'weapons', then it follows that a created javelin certainly does.

I'm actually surprised to see something this explicit and this inclusive, but there it is. Thanks to the Green One for the link.

No, that's not what he's arguing. He's saying that Inspire Courage works only because it's AoE, which implies he's stating that it only works on Spiritual Weapon because it's being boosted separately from the caster.

Wat

Whether it's an AoE or not is irrelevant. The weapon isn't gaining the boost, the weapon user is.

Unless you're implying that a weapon is an "ally" and can see or hear the Bard (even non-Intelligent Item weapons, now), and is able to be affected by mind-affecting abilities (hint: all 3 are false).

Wat

Whether it's an AoE or not is irrelevant. The weapon isn't gaining the boost, the weapon user is.

But the caster isn't using the Ice Javelins. He creates them, then they act themselves of their own accord.

However, in reviewing the FAQ and your points I now think you're right based on the FAQ. I just think the FAQ ruling is wrong and shouldn't have included Mage's Sword or Spiritual Weapon and shall note this for my home games. It doesn't make sense to me that if the weapon isn't wielded by the character that it should be affected by something that affects only characters.

They direct the weapon. It's no different than a ranged attack. The only difference is they're aimed mentally rather than physically.

The character is aiming them at the very least, since he needs to make an attack roll. If it works for a ray coming out of your fingers, why wouldn't it work for this? Just imagine them as rays that start from around you and not from your pointing finger.

Also, if you want real cheese, use it with smite from bestow grace of the champion.

They direct the weapon. It's no different than a ranged attack. The only difference is they're aimed mentally rather than physically.

Very much this.

I just think the FAQ ruling is wrong and shouldn't have included Mage's Sword or Spiritual Weapon and shall note this for my home games. It doesn't make sense to me that if the weapon isn't wielded by the character that it should be affected by something that affects only characters.

You're certainly entitled to this Claxon - there are certain FAQs I find to make less than perfect sense.

I would agree with you though, if the casters BAB wasn't factored in - that indicates that their actual combat prowess, not pure spell power, is influencing the attacks. So a Cleric 10 is far worse with it than a Cleric 10 / Fighter 10.

...and if you have a bone with Inspire Courage working with self-directed weapons like Spiritual Weapons and Lion Shields, just tell yourself that there's some kind of A.I. at work to direct the weapon, and the A.I. is friendly. If not an A.I., then it's some kind of spirit that is friendly to the team.