Some issues with Starfinder


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My latest complaint is that the ship security modification that puts a gun over your ramp doesn't draw power from the ship, it still has a battery that can run out. Lame.


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Notsonoble wrote:
My largest issue with Starfinder at the moment is that the Core Rule Book was setting tied. PF's moving towards this with splats, fair... but your core having the equivalent of the Pact Worlds Primer?

I prefer the game include a setting in the CRB.

Money is tight for me right now. I don't want to have to buy a CRB, then a Monster Manual, then a GMG, then make everything from scratch or buy setting book 1.

By including the core setting my players have no excuse for not grasping the world. I say, "We're playing in the Starfinder post-Golarian setting."

They don't need to buy 2 books minimum to play.


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Deadtissue wrote:
My issue with Starfinder is that the weapons and armor (personal and ship based) are level based. It makes no sense in a SciFi game. Star Wars d20 handled this well and with the introduction of stamina they could easily have kept Health and stamino lower and just kept the weapons and armor tighter so every couple levels you do not have to go buy new weapons and armor and keep threats relevant for many more levels. This is not a quest/dungeon grind (which I love) that pathfinder is with constant treasure upgrades. This involves the character having to go from his trusty Laser pistol his father gave him to a new one every 5 levels just to be useful. Disappointing given I will likely be taking new weapons off boss opponents or flying to a "specia" place just to get a laser powerful enough to hurt the "special" bad guys I encountered. And a low level NPC with a laser is likely no threat at all as I will shrug off his d4 like its nothing. They did not make the transition to scifi but landed in fantasyfi of spelljammer or spacejammer. This is no longer magic its tech they should have adapted for that. This is the biggest failing to me, love alot of it and like the rest so I will play for sure.

With UBPs and a enough ranks in the relevant crafting skill, you can use your skill and tools on your hunting rifle and a few hours' later, you've transformed your trusty varmint gun "Shelly" into "Shelly the tactical seeker rifle".


Lack of options for squadron based groups, compared to bridge crew type groups. Like Squadron Leaders being able to use Captain Skills to effect the rest of the flight group, etc.

The support seems to be getting the whole group on one bridge. Which is very limiting.

Also, just the ship frames in general are bewildering on the small side of the spectrum.

If you can't even make the equivalent of an X-Wing with the ship build rules (4 Forward Arc Lasers, 2x Forward Arc Torpedos) then I think something is wrong fundamentally. An Apache Helicopter has more forward facing weapons than a space fighter can have per the rules.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

My understanding is they wanted some more time to work on squadron based situations and they would be trying some of it out in some upcoming SFS scenarios. :-)


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captain yesterday wrote:
My understanding is they wanted some more time to work on squadron based situations and they would be trying some of it out in some upcoming SFS scenarios. :-)

That is great to hear!


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MagicPrime wrote:


If you can't even make the equivalent of an X-Wing with the ship build rules (4 Forward Arc Lasers, 2x Forward Arc Torpedos) then I think something is wrong fundamentally. An Apache Helicopter has more forward facing weapons than a space fighter can have per the rules.

The ship weapon rules are an abstraction, they don't describe what is really going on. Your fighter with one forward laser can actually have 4 tiny linked lasers, as long as they do the same damage and have the same single target limitation as that laser in the book. Your torpedoes or missiles can "really" be a cluster of munitions guided in together, as long as they hit and do damage once.

Same with the linked weapons in the book, you don't have to treat it as two side by side weapons physically linked, you can just treat it as a single custom huge version of the base weapon that takes up 2.5 times as much BP and twice as much PCU and the space of two weapon mounts.


X-wing is a laser cannon/light plasma cannon and a plasma torpedo launcher in the default forward arc mounts for fighters. ;)


complaint - lack of customized frames for ships and drones(id prefer more adaptability in stats etc) for me


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One issue I have found is that a level 20 operative with two exploits and max cyber enhancement can move 110' per move action over difficult terrain. That's not fast enough.


Xenocrat wrote:
One issue I have found is that a level 20 operative with two exploits and max cyber enhancement can move 110' per move action over difficult terrain. That's not fast enough.

*activates sarcasm detector*


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Xenocrat wrote:
One issue I have found is that a level 20 operative with two exploits and max cyber enhancement can move 110' per move action over difficult terrain. That's not fast enough.

You're forgetting the "Fleet" feat for another +10 also if the Space Goblin stats from First Contact are correct, that's another +5.


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Xenocrat wrote:
One issue I have found is that a level 20 operative with two exploits and max cyber enhancement can move 110' per move action over difficult terrain. That's not fast enough.

Agreed. The technomancer has Interplanetary Teleport by this level, moving between any two points in a solar system as a standard action. Even if we take into consideration that the operative doesn't have to spend spell slots, he should be at least a 1/10th as effective. He should be allowed to have a move speed of 728887137264' per move action and have unlimited flight through space.

Nothing else seems fair to me.

Based on the real world distance from mercury to uranus :>

Sovereign Court

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Cellion wrote:
Based on the real world distance from mercury to uranus :>

Too many possibilities for comebacks *BOOM!*


Cellion wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
One issue I have found is that a level 20 operative with two exploits and max cyber enhancement can move 110' per move action over difficult terrain. That's not fast enough.

Agreed. The technomancer has Interplanetary Teleport by this level, moving between any two points in a solar system as a standard action. Even if we take into consideration that the operative doesn't have to spend spell slots, he should be at least a 1/10th as effective. He should be allowed to have a move speed of 728887137264' per move action and have unlimited flight through space.

Nothing else seems fair to me.

Based on the real world distance from mercury to uranus :>

There's a book with pretty much that exact plot! It was on the NYT best seller list for 38 weeks and was made into a movie:


Chaos Isaac wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
The handgun is accurate to 30ft, which is just its first range increment, not its total range. It's full "range" is 300ft, and it's not like the projectile stops so much as it just isn't reliable enough to hit something that far.

You know, that actually doesn't make it much better. So, you're right, it's maximum range is 300ft, but even then the penalty to that attack is a neat -18. So, they can shoot a bit further than a paintball gun. A contemporary 9mm can shoot far, far further than that, and we don't have FTL travel, power armor or plasma weaponry. It is entirely at odds with the setting itself, and while it is better than I thought it was, it's still pretty bad.

And in that case, there's some bad editing going on here that needs to be addressed, and the range note needs to be added into the 'reading weapon tables' as at first glance, many players aren't going to know this.

True but in a fire fight you are going to be aiming in about a 30ft radius not 300ft or more


My biggest issue is that Starfinder made my favourite rogue technique in Pathfinder completely unusable.

No more going prone as a free action and then, popping up with stand up as yet another free action, making my shots and then going prone again for cover.

Going prone is now a swift action, and the most I can get for standing up is another swift action. *Flips table*

Oh, and then probably something about Lord Asmodeus not becoming one of the 20 main gods but at least Hellknights seem to be a big faction now so I guess it balances out? Except the fact there is no widespread Asmodean lawyer clerics in a futuristic space campaign who would totally draft up contracts for everyone, All we have are the enforcers.

Don't even get me started on non lethal. The way its written now, its basically an impossible endeavor unless the whole party is fully committed and one murderhobo can potentially just ruin everyone's efforts (and then try half a murderhobo party who go "eh, I'll just lethal so I can hit" on an NPC everyone agreed we needed to take alive...)


Omnitricks wrote:

My biggest issue is that Starfinder made my favourite rogue technique in Pathfinder completely unusable.

No more going prone as a free action and then, popping up with stand up as yet another free action, making my shots and then going prone again for cover.

Going prone is now a swift action, and the most I can get for standing up is another swift action. *Flips table*

Oh, and then probably something about Lord Asmodeus not becoming one of the 20 main gods but at least Hellknights seem to be a big faction now so I guess it balances out? Except the fact there is no widespread Asmodean lawyer clerics in a futuristic space campaign who would totally draft up contracts for everyone, All we have are the enforcers.

Don't even get me started on non lethal. The way its written now, its basically an impossible endeavor unless the whole party is fully committed and one murderhobo can potentially just ruin everyone's efforts (and then try half a murderhobo party who go "eh, I'll just lethal so I can hit" on an NPC everyone agreed we needed to take alive...)

But cant you still Stand up (from prone) as swift, Fire, then Drop as Move-->Swift to mimic the same thing, ending your turn in prone, wash repeat?


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Not to mention that perhaps in Starfinder Asmodeus is laying low or is himself now imprisoned ... or is a future AP BBEG in which the players get to nuke his eminence from orbit.

Or he holds sway over star systems and places not disclosed in the relatively brief setting section of the core rules.

Given the nature of the weaponry in use ... nonlethal does not readily come to mind for most of them as a remotely viable option. I'd love to see a BAR firing rubber rounds that didn't kill the people they shot. Use a merciful fusion, problem solved.


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I'm taking Hell's Kitchen to a whole new level. Entertainment, that's where the true power lies.


Figures ... we now know who is in charge of trid production throughout Known Space. ;)


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Don't tell me you'd rather go to McMoloch's!

Liberty's Edge

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simplygnome wrote:


But cant you still Stand up (from prone) as swift, Fire, then Drop as Move-->Swift to mimic the same thing, ending your turn in prone, wash repeat?

I think the problem is that you can only make one shot that way, rather than being able to full attack.

Dark Archive

Asmodeus, Prince of Darkness wrote:
Don't tell me you'd rather go to McMoloch's!

Actually, I'd rather go to Cayden's. I've heard they actually sell food brew there.

Liberty's Edge

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Shisumo wrote:
simplygnome wrote:


But cant you still Stand up (from prone) as swift, Fire, then Drop as Move-->Swift to mimic the same thing, ending your turn in prone, wash repeat?
I think the problem is that you can only make one shot that way, rather than being able to full attack.

Not really sure that it's a "problem" that you can't cheese making both a full attack and being prone for everybody else's turns. That's having your cake and eating it too.


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FMS Trippic wrote:
complaint - lack of customized frames for ships and drones(id prefer more adaptability in stats etc) for me

This is a really poor complaint. Its the freaking core rulebook dude. Seriously. They have limited space. The SYSYTEM just came out, keep it simple in the beginning. Did you really expect them to give 100 different options just for frames right out the gate?

Also coming from a business point of view bad for them. Im betting they will have a whole book just on ships and/or drones with all of this an more.

Dark Archive

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One of my issues is the Soldier class.
The 4+int skill ranks is better than the fighter, but the later fighter splat books actually gave fighters a lot of cool options for gaining skill ranks and bonuses.
Literally every other Starfinder class gets SOME kind of insight bonus to skills.
Envoy: 1d8+4 on up to 6 skills
Mechanic: +6 on computers and engineering, w/ an option for perception
Mystic: +7 on 2 skills chosen at level 1
Operative: +6 on ALL skills
Solarion: +1d6 on up to 6 skills
Soldier:
Technomancer: +6 on computers and mysticism

The solarion isn't looking too hot compared to the other classes, either. An average of 3.5 is pretty low compared to the other classes, but at least they can compete when they high-roll. The soldier gets NOTHING for skills.
Well, they get feats. So they can nab a couple of skill focuses. Which is still worse than all the other classes.
Not that the fighting classes should be skill masters, but I feel like they should at least have a niche. Maybe soldiers could've had a scaling bonus to Athletics. That's not usually a very powerful skill, but then soldiers would at least have a niche.
And why don't soldiers have perception as a class skill? That's like the single most important skill for soldiering.


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Ectar wrote:

One of my issues is the Soldier class.

The 4+int skill ranks is better than the fighter, but the later fighter splat books actually gave fighters a lot of cool options for gaining skill ranks and bonuses.
Literally every other Starfinder class gets SOME kind of insight bonus to skills.
Envoy: 1d8+4 on up to 6 skills
Mechanic: +6 on computers and engineering, w/ an option for perception
Mystic: +7 on 2 skills chosen at level 1
Operative: +6 on ALL skills
Solarion: +1d6 on up to 6 skills
Soldier:
Technomancer: +6 on computers and mysticism

The solarion isn't looking too hot compared to the other classes, either. An average of 3.5 is pretty low compared to the other classes, but at least they can compete when they high-roll. The soldier gets NOTHING for skills.
Well, they get feats. So they can nab a couple of skill focuses. Which is still worse than all the other classes.
Not that the fighting classes should be skill masters, but I feel like they should at least have a niche. Maybe soldiers could've had a scaling bonus to Athletics. That's not usually a very powerful skill, but then soldiers would at least have a niche.
And why don't soldiers have perception as a class skill? That's like the single most important skill for soldiering.

I don't have an issue with Soldiers not getting a skill based ability. THEY ARE COMBAT BASED. PURE COMBAT. So what if not all classes get a skill bonus or not. Different classes have different roles. They are to be versatile in combat. That is why they get all of the feats.

Also I agree on the perception thing. EVERYONE should have this.


Soldiers get a feat literally every level. Use those general feats to pick up skill bonuses. Problem solved.

Dark Archive

Except skill focus can only give a +3 bonus, and skill synergy doesn't stack. So soldiers can only be s**~ty generalists, at best.


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And it's not like there's a million feats that you'd miss out on by taking skill focus or something.


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Ectar wrote:
Except skill focus can only give a +3 bonus, and skill synergy doesn't stack. So soldiers can only be s#&*ty generalists, at best.

That's still better than nothing.

If you want to be the skillz king then go with envoy or operative.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:
Ectar wrote:
Except skill focus can only give a +3 bonus, and skill synergy doesn't stack. So soldiers can only be s#&*ty generalists, at best.

That's still better than nothing.

If you want to be the skillz king then go with envoy or operative.

Why does it have to be a sneaky/talky person with all the skillz? This seems to be a hold-over from 3.5 and PF.

ARe game designers still mad that Beowulf one-shot the Grendel and Grendel's mom?

Silver Crusade

Ectar wrote:
Except skill focus can only give a +3 bonus, and skill synergy doesn't stack. So soldiers can only be s+!+ty generalists, at best.

One of the changes from Pathfinder to Starfinder that I REALLY dislike is the fact that Skill Focus now just provides the +3, whereas Pathfinder gave you a +6 at 10th level if you wanted it.

I think just putting that back (or, if absolutely necessary, adding an Extra Skill Focus feat with a Prereq of 10 skill ranks) would go a long way towards letting the Soldier contribute in at least a couple of chosen skills.


That's about the same thing as saying everyone should get both armor proficiencies and all but one of the weapon proficiencies, leaving Soldier in the dust.

Re: Perception not being a Soldier class skill, that is a head scratcher. Don't get the reasoning for this one either.


Until late game, when class abilities actually hit +4 and over for the skill bonus, skill focus puts a soldier ahead of or equal to other classes. Only attribute advantages and class abilities for skill rerolls and taking 10 help he other classes, and those are limited.

So early game the soldier can spend feats to be pretty close to other classes in some chosen (Dex) skills. Can other classes spend feats to be as close to the soldier in combat?

Liberty's Edge

Xenocrat wrote:
Until late game, when class abilities actually hit +4 and over for the skill bonus, skill focus puts a soldier ahead of or equal to other classes. Only attribute advantages and class abilities for skill rerolls and taking 10 help he other classes, and those are limited.

True enough. Only Envoy gets much better than +3 before 11th level, and only in a handful of skills.

Xenocrat wrote:
So early game the soldier can spend feats to be pretty close to other classes in some chosen (Dex) skills. Can other classes spend feats to be as close to the soldier in combat?

In early levels? Yes. An Exocortex Mechanic is already close and can get almost completely equal with just Heavy Weapons Proficiency and Specialization.

The Soldier's third attack is an advantage that makes those tactics no longer really equal them. And kicks in at 11th level.

Huh. I hadn't noticed that both those things kicked in at the same time. Interesting.

Dark Archive

I've already seen Deadmanwalking carrying the "Solarions are capable of putting out the most damage" flag. AND they get a baked-in skill bonus on up to 6 skills. It's ~3.5, which is marginally better than 3 from skill focus. Plus it takes a minute to swap between one set of 3 and the other. That means the solarion gets about 6 skill focus feats. Now the fighter is up a net 4 feats on the solarion, but still does less damage.

I'm willing to also take Deadmanwalking's word on mechanics. Plus, having a drone means you can really work the action economy in your favor.

Operatives with their 4 attacks at the high levels are quite capable of doing damage.

Technomancers and Mystics have spells. Granted, they aren't the alpha and the omega like wizards and clerics, but spells still give them a very strong combat role.

Envoys are not the strongest combatants, but they are very competent supports. +4 to the party's to-hit is very nice, while still being able to take a shot.

All the classes do well in their roles. The soldier just has the smallest role. Combat. Just combat.
Makes me sad is
That's my issue. The lack of breadth for the soldier class.


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pauljathome wrote:
Ectar wrote:
Except skill focus can only give a +3 bonus, and skill synergy doesn't stack. So soldiers can only be s+!+ty generalists, at best.

One of the changes from Pathfinder to Starfinder that I REALLY dislike is the fact that Skill Focus now just provides the +3, whereas Pathfinder gave you a +6 at 10th level if you wanted it.

I think just putting that back (or, if absolutely necessary, adding an Extra Skill Focus feat with a Prereq of 10 skill ranks) would go a long way towards letting the Soldier contribute in at least a couple of chosen skills.

Coming from Pathfinder, one's initial reaction to Skill Focus's +3 bonus, much like one's initial reaction to the +1 attack bonus from the Envoy's Get 'Em ability, is that these bonuses are underwhelming. But once you see how stingy Starfinder is with bonuses, things start to look different. For this bonus scarcity makes the rare options that grant bonuses much more valuable than they are in Pathfinder.

(My personal rule of thumb when evaluating Starfinder bonuses is to double the bonus, and see how that would feel in the context of Pathfinder. That makes Get 'Em like a +2 attack bonus in Pathfinder; not bad. And that makes Skill Focus like a +6 bonus in Pathfinder; again, not bad.)

I've never taken Skill Focus in Pathfinder, because it seems like a waste: for the cost of a feat I get a bonus that I could easily get from an item for 900gp; or, at level 10, for 3600gp. But I've taken Skill Focus in some of my mid-level Starfinder builds because it's a much more valuable feat (even capped at +3) than it is in Pathfinder. For example, there is no low cost item you can buy that will give you the same bonus.

Anyway, when judged from that perspective, I think Starfinder's Skill Focus looks pretty good.

Dark Archive

Porridge wrote:


Coming from Pathfinder, one's initial reaction to Skill Focus's +3 bonus, much like one's initial reaction to the +1 attack bonus from the Envoy's Get 'Em ability, is that these bonuses are underwhelming. But once you see how stingy Starfinder is with bonuses, things start to look different. For this bonus scarcity makes the rare options that grant bonuses much more valuable than they are in Pathfinder.

(My personal rule of thumb when evaluating Starfinder bonuses is to double the bonus, and see how that would feel in the context of Pathfinder. That makes Get 'Em like a +2 attack bonus in Pathfinder; not bad. And that makes Skill Focus like a +6 bonus in Pathfinder; again, not bad.)

Anyway, when judged from that perspective, I think Starfinder's Skill Focus looks pretty good.

I cut up the quote to focus on the parts I wish to respond to.

I'm not making a comparison of Pathfinder numbers to Starfinder numbers. I'm comparing numbers between classes within Starfinder. Most of the classes get a +6 bonus to some number of skills. Solarion get 1d6. Soldier get feats. Which works to +3.

Given the doubling as a basis, Soldiers can buy some +6s with feats. Solarions get ~7 from class features. Everyone else is in the double digits.

I have a problem with the skill focus feat, but that problem is a totally separate issue.

Skill Focus Rant:
My problem with the feat is that many classes get insight bonuses to skills, but as stated above, they don't overcome skill focus until the higher levels. However, most of the classes where this is the case don't provide any benefit if you DID take skill focus in the earlier levels. Envoy and Operative do, but if a mechanic, mystic, or technomancer take skill focus in one of the skill they want to be good at, they're SOL when their class feature makes it obsolete. But it doesn't become obsolete until 8th or 9th level. So it's a viable feat before that point, but then it becomes dead. There's the mnemonic editor, but as written it works on the two most recently attained levels, so it technically won't even help. It says in that section that it is ultimately up to the GM what a person is and isn't allowed to rework on a character, but in my opinion that's the kind of thing that SHOULDN'T be up to the GM. That should just be a note at the end of the skill focus feat, or the class feature that grants the scaling insight bonus.


The argument that Soldiers have feats to spare to make up for the lack of class skill bonuses will fade out as new "must have" feats are released in new books. I only hope Paizo releases the SF version of Weapon/Armor Master Handbook options at the same time.

Additionally, the lack of a skill bonus pretty much locks a Soldier into the Gunner role for Spaceship combat. And that isn't even a niche since Pilot ranks do the same thing. Any hotshot pilot is just as good a gunner as a Soldier AND can fly the ship better. If the Soldier is supposed to be focused on combat why do they not get any bonus to spaceship combat? BAB means jack when any class w/ skill points to spare can hit just as easily.

Silver Crusade

Porridge wrote:


Anyway, when judged from that perspective, I think Starfinder's Skill Focus looks pretty good.

I don't care how rare a bonus is, I care about how useful it is.

Going from level 1 to level 11, the difficulty for most skills goes up by 15 (most skills scale with a 1.5 * CR/Tier)

Going from level 1 to level 11 a PC is going to get +10 from skill ranks and +1 or +2 from stat progression. If the skill is a secondary skill (the soldier wants intimidate, for example) you're not likely to get a magical progression. So, the soldier gets +12 while the DCs go up by 15.

Which is PRECISELY why I want that additional +3 :-).

For the specialists, the math is different. They all get a baked in bonus of +4 or so and their stat math will be better. And a +6 insight from skill focus only helps them a little.

Making a skill focus go up at L10 would likely be too good for the operative. But it is necessary to make the Soldiers intimidate relevant at the higher levels.


Zabraxis wrote:

The argument that Soldiers have feats to spare to make up for the lack of class skill bonuses will fade out as new "must have" feats are released in new books. I only hope Paizo releases the SF version of Weapon/Armor Master Handbook options at the same time.

Additionally, the lack of a skill bonus pretty much locks a Soldier into the Gunner role for Spaceship combat. And that isn't even a niche since Pilot ranks do the same thing. Any hotshot pilot is just as good a gunner as a Soldier AND can fly the ship better. If the Soldier is supposed to be focused on combat why do they not get any bonus to spaceship combat? BAB means jack when any class w/ skill points to spare can hit just as easily.

every character is equally good at piloting and gunnery when it comes to pure skill ranks.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am sorry but the Soldier should NOT BE A SKILL BASED CLASS. A soldier should be melee based. Also i'm not sure why the Operative gets 4 attacks and the soldier doesn't. It seems like most of the other classes make in combat in other ways and are just as capable as the soldier. I don't see the point in a soldier wasting time with skill focus. Soldiers are COMBAT BASED. They get so many feats because they are adaptable. Soldiers in the military are generally very versatile in combat.

If you want to be skill based that's what the Envoy does. Operatives are like the soldier of skills. They are versatile in what they can do and get flat bonus to ALL skills. All my characters right now that I have ready to go for society have ranks in pilot. In settings like this I love being the hot shot pilot. But The Mad Comrade is right every character is pretty equally good at piloting. (From what I have seen)

Dark Archive

Micheal Smith wrote:

I am sorry but the Soldier should NOT BE A SKILL BASED CLASS. A soldier should be melee based. Also i'm not sure why the Operative gets 4 attacks and the soldier doesn't. It seems like most of the other classes make in combat in other ways and are just as capable as the soldier. I don't see the point in a soldier wasting time with skill focus. Soldiers are COMBAT BASED. They get so many feats because they are adaptable. Soldiers in the military are generally very versatile in combat.

If you want to be skill based that's what the Envoy does. Operatives are like the soldier of skills. They are versatile in what they can do and get flat bonus to ALL skills. All my characters right now that I have ready to go for society have ranks in pilot. In settings like this I love being the hot shot pilot. But The Mad Comrade is right every character is pretty equally good at piloting. (From what I have seen)

That's just it, though. The other classes make it in combat in other ways and are JUST AS CAPABLE as the soldier. In combat. In the soldier's WHOLE niche. Which makes it not a niche at all. And they get NOTHING ELSE.


Ectar wrote:
Micheal Smith wrote:

I am sorry but the Soldier should NOT BE A SKILL BASED CLASS. A soldier should be melee based. Also i'm not sure why the Operative gets 4 attacks and the soldier doesn't. It seems like most of the other classes make in combat in other ways and are just as capable as the soldier. I don't see the point in a soldier wasting time with skill focus. Soldiers are COMBAT BASED. They get so many feats because they are adaptable. Soldiers in the military are generally very versatile in combat.

If you want to be skill based that's what the Envoy does. Operatives are like the soldier of skills. They are versatile in what they can do and get flat bonus to ALL skills. All my characters right now that I have ready to go for society have ranks in pilot. In settings like this I love being the hot shot pilot. But The Mad Comrade is right every character is pretty equally good at piloting. (From what I have seen)

That's just it, though. The other classes make it in combat in other ways and are JUST AS CAPABLE as the soldier. In combat. In the soldier's WHOLE niche. Which makes it not a niche at all. And they get NOTHING ELSE.

Have you personally run the math on that? Checked and found out when you figure out everything that other classes do just as good in combat as a solider? I'm gonna need some proof.


They get to use some pretty f$~~ing big weapons.

Liberty's Edge

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Micheal Smith wrote:
I am sorry but the Soldier should NOT BE A SKILL BASED CLASS. A soldier should be melee based. Also i'm not sure why the Operative gets 4 attacks and the soldier doesn't.

It's because even with four attacks they pretty much break even with their trick attack in DPR, which is something like half that of a Soldier with three attacks.

Remember, the Operative's extra attacks are contingent on using the lowest damage weapons in the game.

Micheal Smith wrote:
It seems like most of the other classes make in combat in other ways and are just as capable as the soldier. I don't see the point in a soldier wasting time with skill focus. Soldiers are COMBAT BASED. They get so many feats because they are adaptable. Soldiers in the military are generally very versatile in combat.

A few skill options aren't a terrible idea, though.

Micheal Smith wrote:
If you want to be skill based that's what the Envoy does. Operatives are like the soldier of skills. They are versatile in what they can do and get flat bonus to ALL skills. All my characters right now that I have ready to go for society have ranks in pilot. In settings like this I love being the hot shot pilot. But The Mad Comrade is right every character is pretty equally good at piloting. (From what I have seen)

This really depends on interpretation, most people seem to firmly believe you can add flat bonuses to skills to your Pilot checks, which makes Soldiers some of the worst pilots in the game.

Evidence seems to support this. Now, with Gunnery, that's another matter, but not one a Soldier needs Pilot to be good at.


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Ok so that doesn't mean give it skill based abilities. If you get the right feats, an NOT FOCUS in skills, you could potentially be far superior and do more in combat that other classes. Some of these feats I have seen people down play or make it seem like they aren't great I have already seen practical uses for. Building a desk soldier and giving him the improved unarmed strike to have that damage level up would be great. The fact that he gets 1-1/2 times weapon specialization. If you can get in to melee the damage will be amazing with the right feats. Getting step up and step up an strike. Also getting to a 5th level character and 15 int, Picking up technomantic dabbler and getting overcharged weapon with all of that the damage for that one attack sky rockets (yes I realize anyone can do most of this but all the feats the soldier get make it more deadly.

Just because they all can be as efficient in combat, you HAVE to build a soldier purely for combat, I would think, in order to out shine others.

Liberty's Edge

Micheal Smith wrote:
Ok so that doesn't mean give it skill based abilities. If you get the right feats, an NOT FOCUS in skills, you could potentially be far superior and do more in combat that other classes. Some of these feats I have seen people down play or make it seem like they aren't great I have already seen practical uses for. Building a desk soldier and giving him the improved unarmed strike to have that damage level up would be great. The fact that he gets 1-1/2 times weapon specialization. If you can get in to melee the damage will be amazing with the right feats. Getting step up and step up an strike. Also getting to a 5th level character and 15 int, Picking up technomantic dabbler and getting overcharged weapon with all of that the damage for that one attack sky rockets (yes I realize anyone can do most of this but all the feats the soldier get make it more deadly.

This is a really bad build mechanically. 7d6+43 (average 67.5 damage) is maxed unarmed strike damage, and if nowhere near as good as 12d10+33 (average 99 damage). Which is what you can get with a normal weapon.

Micheal Smith wrote:
Just because they all can be as efficient in combat, you HAVE to build a soldier purely for combat, I would think, in order to out shine others.

This really isn't true. A Soldier, just with class abilities and a good weapon, is already just flat-out better at doing damage than anyone but a Solarian. By quite a bit. That third attack, especially combined with full BAB, is mechanically amazing. As is their free access to all the best weapons.

Some Feat investment in combat is a pretty good call, but hardly to the point of needing to spend every single Feat on it.

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