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Really like what you have done here. Has it been playtested already ? Has anyone already played this warlock ? (Thinking about talking my gm into accepting it) A number of people. You might want to see the final version, though, which includes a google document. HERE MA
Certainly not, Carthienes. Sorry I've been away from this thread for so long, but work has been rather hectic. I am going to reply to your points, but it may be a few days. But I do not mind (in the least!) constructive criticisms. I do hope that you enjoy the class.
You are most welcome, Wynter Ignatius. I get where you coming from with the 'stigma' of being a Warlock--and that is something I make sure MY players understand from the get-go. To be a Warlock means you aren't going to be trusted, you are liable to get knifed in a tavern, you are going to have people try and cheat you, steal from you, put you on trial (for crimes you haven't done!), and generally look upon you as an abomination. BUT, I also let my players know that their actions can (slowly) change people's perceptions and bias over time. Anyway, I'm glad that you enjoyed it and I hope that you have a good time playing the class. MA
Dotting for later comment. MA
When I run a game where we roll, I have the players each roll four complete set of stats . . . then they can pick one.
Stat Array #1: 12, 16, 7, 11, 11, 12 (11 point buy)
Stat Array #2: 10, 10, 8, 10, 12, 14 (4 point buy)
Stat Array #3: 10, 11, 12, 13, 11, 10 (7 point buy)
Stat Array #4: 16, 12, 13, 11, 10, 11 (16 point buy) Usually gives them at least ONE set of (good enough) stats that the player feels like he can play. MA
(bruh, dont link to a doc and then dump the contents of the doc) Usually, when I post one of these, I get asked for a separate link. I just went ahead and posted it here so that folks could read it AND gave that separate link before anyone could ask me for it. Sorry if it annoys you. MA
Spoiler: Alignment: Any lawful. Hit Die: d8. CLASS SKILLS
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier. CLASS FEATURES
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, short sword, shortspear, shuriken, siangham, sling, spear, and any weapon with the monk special weapon quality. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities. AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is f lat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load. Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk can select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Blind-Fight, Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Mobility, Nimble Moves, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Agile Steps, Gorgon’s Fist, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Greater Grapple, Greater Trip, Spring Attack, and Wind Stance. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Critical Focus, Improved Critical, Lightning Stance, Medusa’s Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Whirlwind Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them. Flurry of Blows (Ex): At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects). At 11th level, a monk can make an additional attack at his highest base attack bonus whenever he makes a flurry of blows. This stacks with the first attack from this ability and additional attacks from haste and similar effects. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. Stunning Fist (Ex): At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. At 4th level, the monk can choose to make the target fatigued. At 8th level, he can make the target sickened for 1 minute. At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. At 16th level, he can permanently blind or deafen the target. At 20th level, he can paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds. The monk must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves (a creature fatigued by Stunning Fist cannot become exhausted if hit by Stunning Fist again), but additional hits do increase the duration. Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks can be with fists, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk can make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk can apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes. A monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, although he can choose to deal nonlethal damage with no penalty on his attack roll. He can make this choice while grappling as well. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on the table above. The unarmed damage values listed on the Class Features Table above are for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage. See the table below: Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level, a monk can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a monk succeeds at a Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion. Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains a bonus to his land speed, as shown on the Class Features Table above. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed. High Jump (Ex): As long as a monk or 3rd level or higher has at least 1 point in his ki pool (see below), he adds his level as a bonus on all Acrobatics checks to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when attempting Acrobatics checks to jump. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, the monk gains an additional +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks to jump for 1 round. Ki Pool (Su): At 3rd level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk’s ki pool is equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 3rd level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 7th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as cold iron and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness. At 19th level, a lawful good monk treats his unarmed strikes as good weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, while a lawful evil monk treats his unarmed strikes as evil weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A lawful neutral monk must choose whether his unarmed strikes will be considered good or evil (once this decision is made it cannot be changed). By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can make one additional unarmed strike at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. This bonus attack stacks with all bonus attacks gained from flurry of blows, as well as those from haste and similar effects. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as an immediate action, a monk can grant himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC until the end of his next turn. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can grant himself a sudden burst of speed. This increases the monk’s base land speed by 30 feet for 1 minute. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can increase the save DC of his stunning fist by +4. The monk must declare that he is spending the ki point before the opponent rolls his saving throw versus Stunning Fist, but he may wait until after he has confirmed that the attack has struck the foe. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels. The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. Ki Powers (Su): At 4th level and every 2 levels thereafter, a monk can select one ki power. These powers allow the monk to perform amazing feats of mystical power and acrobatic prowess by expending points from his ki pool. Once a ki power is selected, it cannot be changed. Some ki powers require the monk to be of a specific level or higher before they can be chosen. Unless otherwise noted, a monk cannot select an individual ki power more than once. Abundant Step (Su): A monk with this ki power can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. The monk’s caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. Normally, he cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability. However, by spending 1 additional point from his ki pool, a monk may take one willing creatures with him. A monk must be at least 8th level before selecting this ki power. Cobra Breath (Su): Whenever a monk with this ki power is struck by an attack that deliver poison, he can (as an immediate action) spend 1 point from his ki pool to channel and then release that poison as a ranged touch attack against a single foe within 30 feet (treat this attack as an attack of opportunity). If the attack hits, the foe must succeed at a saving throw (using the poison’s original DC) or suffer the poison’s effects, even if it was not originally a contact poison. If the monk chooses to spend an additional ki point (for a total of 2), then the DC of the poison is increased by +2. A monk must be at least 10th level before selecting this ki power. Diamond Mind (Su): By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk with this power can suppress a fear effect affecting him as if using remove fear, using his monk level as his caster level. He can spend 2 ki points to activate this ability even when frightened or panicked. A monk must be at least 6th level before selecting this ki power. Diamond Resilience (Ex): By spending 1 point from his ki pool as an immediate action, the monk gains DR 2/-. This DR lasts for 1 minute. At 14th level, the damage reduction granted by this ki power increases to DR 4/-; at 18th level it increases again to DR 6/-. A monk must be at least 10th level before selecting this ki power. Diamond Soul (Ex): A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool as an immediate action to gain spell resistance equal to his monk level + 10. This spell resistance lasts for a number of rounds equal to the monk’s level. The monk can choose to spend an additional point from his ki pool when activating this power to increase the conferred spell resistance by +4. A monk must be at least 12th level before selecting this ki power. Elemental Fury (Su): A monk who selects this ki power must select one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. The monk can expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to imbue his unarmed attacks with this energy, causing them to deal 1d6 points of damage of the chosen type for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 his monk level. A monk must be at least 6th level before selecting this ki power. Elemental Burst (Su): A monk with this ability can spend 4 ki points to unleash a gout of energy in a 20-foot burst, centered on the monk. All creatures within the burst (except the monk) take 20d6 points of damage of the same type as the monk’s elemental fury ki power. A Reflex save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the monk’s level + his Wisdom modifier) halves the damage. A monk must be at least 18th level and must possess the elemental fury ki power before selecting this ki power. Empty Body (Su): A monk with this ki power gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 minute as though using the spell etherealness, using his monk level as his caster level. Using this ability is a move action that consume 3 points from the monk’s ki pool. This ability affects only the monk and cannot be used to make other creatures ethereal. A monk must be at least 14th level before selecting this ki power. Feather Balance (Ex): A monk with this ability can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to achieve perfect balance. While this is active, the monk treats any Acrobatics attempt made to balance as if he had rolled a 20. This ability lasts for 1 minute. Formless Mastery (Ex): A monk with this ability varies his styles, never repeating the same move twice and capitalizing on the weaknesses of an opponent’s style. As long as he is not using a Style Stance (see Style Feats) and the monk has at least one point remaining in his ki pool, he gains the following bonuses against any opponent employing a Style Stance: a +4 dodge bonus to AC, a +4 circumstance bonus on attack rolls, and a bonus equal to his monk level on damage rolls. A monk must be at least 6th level before selecting this ki power. Inner Peace (Sp): A monk with this ability can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to bestow a +1 enhancement bonus on his unarmed strikes. This bonus lasts for 1 minute. At 8th level, and every four levels gained as a monk thereafter, this enhancement bonus increases by an additional +1, to a maximum enhancement bonus of +5 at 20th level. Insightful Wisdom (Su): A monk with this ability can spend 1 ki point as an immediate action to give another ally within 30 feet just the right word of advice to prevent disaster. If the ally can hear the monk, she can reroll a single attack roll or saving throw. The ally must take the second result, even if it is worse. A monk must be at least 8th level before selecting this ki power. Ki Blocker (Su): A monk with this ability can spend 1 ki point as a free action before making an unarmed strike against a foe. If the attack hits, the monk can interrupt the target’s flow of ki. If the monk successfully damages the target of his attack, that opponent’s cost to activate abilities with ki increases by 2 ki points for 1 hour. If the monk spends 2 points from his ki pool, he can use this ability to affect the target’s arcane pool, arcane reservoir, grit points, inspiration, or panache points instead of its ki pool. The effects of this ability do not stack, but multiple hits increase the duration by 1 hour for each hit. A monk must be at least 10th level before selecting this ki power. Ki Guardian (Su): As an immediate action before he rolls a saving throw against a targeted effect that also targets other allies or an area effect whose area includes other allies, a monk with this ability can spend any number of ki points and designate a number of adjacent willing allies equal to the number of ki points spent. The monk rolls one saving throw for each designated ally, using his bonus instead of the ally’s. For each successful saving throw, the corresponding ally treats the effect as if that ally had succeeded at the saving throw, and for each saving throw failed, the corresponding ally treats the effect as if that ally had failed the saving throw. If the monk fails any of the saving throws (including his own original saving throw), the monk treats the effect as if he had failed the saving throw. A monk must be at least 6th level before selecting this ki power. Ki Hurricane (Ex): As a full-round action, a monk with this ability can spend 4 points from his ki pool to move up to twice his speed. At any point in that movement, the monk can make his normal attacks from flurry of blows, regardless of the distance that he has moved or between any two (or more) chosen targets. However, the monk must move at least 10’ between each attack that he makes and he may not attack the same foe twice in a row (he may attack one foe multiple times, but only if he moves ‘back-and-forth’ between that foe and at least one other opponent). For example, an 11th level monk has a movement of 60’ and a flurry of blows attack routine of +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 (without spending a point of ki). By activating Ki Hurricane, the monk can move up to 120’ while still making up to five separate attacks on up to five separate opponents. He might (as an example) move 30’, hit one opponent at +11, then move another 20’ and strike a second foe (at +11) before moving 15’ to hit a third (at +11) and then 15’ again to strike the second again (at +6), before moving 25’ to hit a fourth opponent (at +1) and then using the last 15’ of movement to move away from all foes. A monk using this ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity due to movement. A monk must be at least 10th level before selecting this ki power. Ki Metabolism (Su): A monk with this ability uses his ki to control his metabolism. As long as he has at least 1 point remaining in his ki pool, the monk needs to eat and drink only 1/4 as often as normal, needs only 2 hours of sleep each night (including to replenish his ki pool), and can hold his breath for up to 1 hour per point of Constitution. As a move action, he can spend 1 ki point to enter a state of suspended animation, falling unconscious and appearing dead to all senses. At the time he enters this state, he indicates a preset period of time or a triggering condition, after which he awakens. Ki Mount (Su): A monk with this ability can spend 1 ki point as a standard action to grant 2 temporary hit points per monk level he possesses to his mount for 1 hour per monk level. As long as the monk and his mount are adjacent or the monk is mounted, the mount shares the benefits of whichever of the AC bonus, evasion, high jump, improved evasion, ki strike, perfect self, and still mind abilities the monk possesses. A monk must be at least 6th level before selecting this ki power. Ki Range (Su): A monk with this ability increases the range increment of any thrown monk weapon by 20 feet, so long as the monk has at least 1 point remaining in his ki pool. Apply this benefit before doubling the range increment with the Far Shot feat. Ki Visions (Su): A monk with this ability often sees visions of spirits or hears the voice of his departed mentor in his dreams. On any given night during which the monk dreams, he can use this ability to gain the benefits of a divination, as per the spell. In order to use this ability, a monk must have at least one point of ki remaining in his ki pool before his sleep and he must sleep (uninterrupted) for at least 2 hours. A monk must be at least 10th level before selecting this ki power. Ki Volley (Su): When a targeted spell or spell-like ability fails to overcome the monk’s spell resistance from diamond soul, he can spend 2 ki points as an immediate action to send that spell back at its caster as though he were under the affect of spell turning (as per the spell). A monk must be 16th level or higher and possess the diamond soul ki power before selecting this ki power. Light Steps (Ex): A monk with this ki power can move effortlessly across nearly any surface. As long as the monk has at least one point remaining in his ki pool, he ignores all difficult terrain. In addition, if the monk activates the feather balance ki power, he can cross any solid surface while that power is active, even if it would normally not support his weight. This does not allow him to walk on liquids. A monk must be at least 6th level and have the feather balance ki power before selecting this ki power. One Touch (Ex): As long as he has at least 1 point remaining in his ki pool, as a standard action, a monk with this power can make an unarmed strike against a foe as a touch attack. He adds 1/2 his monk level as a bonus on the damage roll. He can spend 1 ki point to double this bonus for that attack. A monk must be at least 12th level before selecting this ki power. Qinggong Power (Su): A monk with this power selects any of the qinggong monk ki powers for which he qualifies based on his monk level. A monk can select this ability multiple times. Each time, he must select a different qinggong monk ki power. Any ki power or class feature listed in this revised class that is duplicated (in part or whole) by an existing qinggong ki power must be used rather than the ones listed on the older archetype. Water Sprint (Su): A monk with this ki power can spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to gain the ability to walk on water, as if under the effects of water walk. Once activated, this ability lasts for 1 minute per monk level. A monk must be at least 6th level and have the feather balance ki power before selecting this ki power. Wind Jump (Su): A monk with this ki power can spend 1 point from his ki pool as a move action to grant himself a fly speed (with perfect maneuverability) equal to his speed. He must end his movement each round on solid ground (or some other surface that can support his weight) or fall as normal. Once activated, this ability lasts for 1 minute. A monk must be at least 8th level and have the feather balance ki power before selecting this ki power. Still Mind (Ex): At 4th level, a monk gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects. In addition, the monk receives a +2 insight bonus on all Will saving throws. At 5th level, and every five levels gained as a monk thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1 to a maximum insight bonus of +6 at 20th level. Purity of Body (Ex): At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases. Style Strike (Ex): At 5th level, a monk can learn two types of style strike. Whenever he makes a flurry of blows, he can designate one of his unarmed strikes as a style strike. This attack is resolved as normal, but it has an additional effect depending on the type of strike chosen. At 9th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk learns an additional style strike. He must choose which style strike to apply before the attack roll is made. At 9th level a monk can designate up to two of his unarmed strikes each round as a style strike. The monk must choose a different style strike for each attack. At 13th level a monk can designate up to three of his unarmed strikes each round as a style strike. The monk must choose a different style strike for each attack. At 17th level a monk can designate up to four of his unarmed strikes each round as a style strike. The monk must choose a different style strike for each attack. Defensive Spin: The monk spins about, confounding his foe. If the attack hits, the monk gains a +4 dodge bonus to AC against any attacks made by the target of the style strike until the start of the monk’s next turn. This bonus does not stack with itself, but does stack with the +4 dodge bonus to AC gained via spending ki (see ki pool above). Elbow Smash: The monk follows up a successful attack with an additional rapid strike. If the attack hits, the monk can make an additional attack using the same attack bonus as the successful attack at a –5 penalty. If this second attack hits, it deals damage as normal, but all of the damage is nonlethal. Flying Kick: The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement can take place either before or between any of a monk’s normal flurry of blows attacks. This movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. Foot Stomp: The monk makes a deep muscle strike, preventing the opponent from escaping. If the attack hits and the monk ends his turn adjacent to that foe, the foe’s movement is restricted. Until the start of the monk’s next turn, the target of this attack can move only in such a way that the space it occupies is adjacent to the monk. Alternatively, it can attempt a combat maneuver check (against the monk’s CMD) as a standard action to break free. This strike does not work against foes that cannot be tripped. Hammerblow: The monk focuses his concentration and ki dealing tremendous damage with one attack. If the attack hits, the monk rolls his unarmed strike damage twice, adding both rolls together before applying Strength and other modifiers to the damage. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. Head-Butt: The monk strikes a cluster of vulnerable nerves on his foe, leaving that opponent reeling. If the attack hits and the foe is of the same size or one size smaller than the monk, the monk can make a free combat maneuver check against the target of this strike (using the base attack bonus of the attack used to hit the foe). If the foe is not of the same creature type as the monk, the monk takes a –2 penalty on this check (-4 for Outsiders, -8 for Aberrations. Undead and constructs are unaffected by this style strike). If the check is successful, the target is staggered for 1 round. Creatures without a discernible head are not affected by this style strike (subject to GM discretion). Knockback Kick: The monk attempts to knock his foe back with a powerful blow. If the attack hits, the monk can attempt a free combat maneuver check against the foe (using the base attack bonus of the attack used to hit the foe). If the check is successful, the foe is knocked 10 feet directly away from the monk. This distance increases by 10 feet for every 5 by which the check exceeds the foe’s CMD, to a maximum distance equal to the monk’s fast movement bonus. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the monk, although it does from any other creature adjacent to the foe’s path of forced movement. The foe stops moving if it strikes another creature, barrier, or otherwise solid object. The creature is not knocked prone by this movement. Leg Sweep: The monk attempts to sweep his foe’s leg, knocking the opponent down. If the attack hits, the monk can make a free trip attempt against the target of this strike (using the base attack bonus of the attack used to hit the foe). This trip attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Shattering Punch: The monk delivers a brutal strike that can penetrate defenses. If the attack hits, it bypasses any damage reduction or hardness possessed by the target of that attack. Spin Kick: The monk spins about, delivering a strike his foe did not expect. The monk makes his attack against the foe’s flat-footed AC. Creatures with the uncanny dodge class feature or a similar effect cannot be caught flat-footed by this style strike. Slow Fall (Su): At 6th level, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall (tree branches, vines, etc.; any objects that can be used to slow a monk’s fall) can use it to slow his descent, so long as the monk has at least one 1 ki point remaining in his ki pool. When he uses this ability, he takes no damage from the fall (as if using feather fall), but he must be adjacent to a wall (or other objects) for the entire length of the fall (although this can be used to reduce the damage from a fall if only part of it is adjacent to some object). Wholeness of Body (Su): A monk of 7th level or higher can heal his own wounds as a swift action. By spending 1 point from his ki pool, he can heal an amount of damage equal to 3d6. At 9th level, and every odd level gained as a monk thereafter (11th, 13th, etc.), the amount of damage healed increases by +1d6 (to a maximum of 9d6 at 19th level. If the monk spends an additional point of ki when activating this ability (2 total), he adds his monk level to the die result to determine the total amount of damage healed. Alternatively, a monk may instead heal ability damage instead of normal hit point damage. By spending 2 points from his ki pool as a full-round action, the monk may heal 3 points of ability damage that he has suffered. The monk may split this healing among multiple damaged ability scores as the monk desires. At 9th level, and every odd level gained as a monk thereafter (11th, 13th, etc.), the amount of ability damage healed increases by +1 (to a total of 9 points at 19th level. Diamond Body (Su): Starting at 8th level, a monk gains immunity to all poisons. Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on successful Reflex saving throws against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on failed saves. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex): At 11th level, a monk can understand and speak with any living creature, as if under a permanent tongues effect. Flawless Mind: At 13th level, a monk gains total control over his mental faculties. Whenever he attempts a Will save, he can roll twice and take the better result. If he fails a Will saving throw against a spell or effect that has a duration longer than 1 hour, the monk can attempt a new saving throw at the end of each hour to end the effect. Quivering Palm (Su): At 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. To use quivering palm, a monk must have at least 2 points remaining in his ki pool. The monk makes an attack (this can be a single attack, part of a flurry of blows, or a charge, but quivering palm cannot be combined with a style strike, see above). A monk may attempt only one quivering palm attack each day (but see below). The monk must declare (before making an attack roll) that the chosen attack will be a quivering palm strike. Creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the attack hits and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter, the monk can try to slay the victim at any time within a number of days equal to his monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action); unless the target succeeds at a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 the monk’s level + the monk’s Wisdom modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it can still be affected by another one at a later time. A monk can have no more than one quivering palm in effect at one time. If a monk uses quivering palm while another is still in effect, the previous one is negated. The monk can, after the attack successfully strikes the monk’s foe, but before damage is rolled, spend 1 or 2 points from his ki pool as an immediate action to increase the save DC of the quivering palm attack. Each ki point spent raises the DC by +2 (to a maximum increase of +4 to the save DC for spending 2 points). At 17th level and again at 19th level, the monk gains a second (and third, respectively) daily use of this ability. Timeless Body (Ex): At 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Age bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when his time is up. Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk undergoes a transformation. For the purpose of spells and magical effects, he become a native outsider and gains Damage Reduction 10/chaotic, which allows him to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonchaotic weapon. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if he were a member of his previous creature type. Finally, the monk gains the ability to enter a state of perfect calm. During this time, the monk can take no actions, but he does regain ki at the rate of 1 point per 10 minutes spent at calm. He cannot use this ability to gain an amount of ki in excess of his maximum.
Okay. I had a chance to look over it . . . not bad. Not exactly what I would have done, but then again, nothing ever is! :) It does address many of the issues. Good job, once again, but I think I'll share my own version as well. Master Arminas's Unchained Monk. MA
Dotting for later comment. MA
In the end... Unchained Monk is slightly better than old Monk... And still not as effective as a Barbarian or any spell-casting class in the game...I have my doubts that it's better than the old monk. It's certainly not a better monk. There were three things the monk absolutely needed to not give up to still call himself a monk: some sort of unarmed strike damage scaling, and the will and reflex saves. Whoa. Whoa! I haven't (yet) got the book, but the Unchained Monk doesn't have increased damage die (and a scaling progression as he advances in level) for a Monk's unarmed strikes?!? Seriously? Tell me that you misread that. MA
Sorry, man. I hope that my request did not get you in hot water with the moderators. MA
True, but the Core Monk had that proviso baked in . . . why change it and risk having it misunderstood? MA
Okay, then. I’ve finally had a chance to go over the class in detail (thanks to Jonathon Wilder, above). There are good things . . . and there are not-so-good things. First off, let’s get the elephant in the room out of the way. I do not like the diminished Will save. I understand why the developers felt it was necessary, but frankly it deprives the Monk of one of its core abilities and (even worse, in my own humble opinion) leaves a gaping hole between the descriptive monk text and what you actually get. I do like the increase in BAB; rather than the ‘virtual’ BAB of the Core Monk, this does make it easier to make standard-action attacks and Attacks of Opportunity without suffering from a lower attack bonus; plus the ability to take (some) combat feats earlier is quite good. And I do indeed understand the reasoning behind the increase to a d10 hit die. However (and y’all knew this was coming), I think that perhaps Paizo missed an opportunity here to do something different. Personally, I would have kept the d8, making the Unchained Monk a little more ‘fragile’ than the Core Fighter/Ranger/Paladin (much less the Barbarian) as a trade-off for his movement and fast striking (i.e., multiple attacks on a full-attack) abilities. Still, we are just talking about an average of 1 hit point per level, so it isn’t something I can really complain about (but I will mention it). Onwards and upwards! Class Skills: Unchanged. I would have liked to see Diplomacy or Linguistics added to the class list (both being thematic for monastic characters), but nothing really to gripe about (or to celebrate!). Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Adding all weapons with monk special quality was nice. Otherwise unchanged from the Core class. AC Bonus: Unchanged. As a side-note, the Unchained Monk’s CMD just got about a five point boost over all 20 levels, making it far harder for someone to use a combat maneuver against a monk! I don’t know if this was intentional or not, but good luck trying to trip or grapple an Unchained Monk! Bonus Feat: Unchanged. Once again, I feel that there was a missed opportunity to add to the Feat List. As it is, the list is very limited and there are still regrettable . . . gaps which make it difficult to get certain feats later on (Greater Trip and Greater Grapple, for example). Flurry of Blows: Ahhh. Now this I can say, with no exaggeration, is a most welcome and valued change. First of all, there is no longer a -2 penalty (across the board) on Flurry attacks. Second, it is finally separated from Two-Weapon Fighting in both design and execution (and cannot stack with TWF). Third, I like the concept of returning to the 3.5 version of Flurry (with all bonus attacks at the Monk’s highest BAB with an additional attack coming in at 11th level). Unfortunately, I have some questions as well! Flurry of Blows:
When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus from this ability, and from haste and similar effects.) First off, right off the bat, it kind of jumps out at me that this is missing (from the Core Monk): A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks. There has been a good deal of rejoicing over that Unchained Monk’s can now get 1.5x Str-mod in damage with Two-Handed Weapons . . . but by the text, it also appears that if a Monk is wielding two weapons, he gets 0.5x Str-mod with his off-hand weapon as well. Furthermore, there is no longer any provision for substituting disarm, sunder, and trip in place of an attack. The natural weapons part is pretty well covered by the “does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so” line in the Unchained Monk. Some will argue that we don’t need that bit of text, because the off-hand is addressed in Unarmed Strikes (see below) . . . unfortunately that applies ONLY to unarmed strikes and NOT with weapons. Was this deliberate? Or an oversight? If deliberate, it pushes the Unchained Monk towards using a single, larger weapon (i.e., temple sword, quarterstaff, etc.) rather than two smaller, lighter weapons. Stunning Fist: Unchanged. Unarmed Strike: Mostly unchanged. But one question: does the Unchained Monk’s unarmed damage increase at the same rate as the Core Monk? That information wasn’t posted and the text about differing damage for Small and Large sized monks was removed. Evasion: Unchanged. Fast Movement: Unchanged. Ki Pool: Moved from 4th level to 3rd. And lost two of the basic ki abilities (+4 AC dodge bonus and +20’ movement) to the new Ki Powers (see below). Many folks have already addressed the rather small size of the pool, so I’m not going to beat a dead horse here. Moving on. Ki Powers: Ah, our first NEW ability. I am going to explore the various Powers here in detail, so bear with me. But first, the basics. The Ki Powers are much like Rage Powers or Rogue Talents in that the Unchained Monk is able to select one at 4th level, then one additional every even level thereafter (6th, 8th, etc.). This gives the Unchained Monk a total of NINE Ki Powers by 20th level. Unfortunately, many of the former abilities were turned into selectable Ki Powers. Including two basic uses of the Ki Pool (see above). If you are attempting to recreate the Core Monk by selecting the powers it used to have . . . you can’t. There are TEN that were removed (including the +4 dodge bonus to AC and the speed increase) and you only have NINE slots. Not good. Also, the expenditure cost of some of these is really, really, REALLY freaking HIGH. Which combined with the shallowness of the Ki Pool rather limits the Unchained Monk’s options. Abundant Step: Unchanged from the Core Monk, BUT able to get it four levels earlier (8th instead of 12th). Cobra Breath: A new power and one that turns being poisoned into an offensive ability. Some people will like it; for myself, it is kind of meh. One of the few that doesn’t cost additional ki. Diamond Body: Ouch. The original Diamond Body was total immunity to ALL poisons and was always on. Yes, you can now get it three levels early (8th instead of 11th), but it affects only ONE toxin and you have to spend ki (as a standard action) in order to have a chance to neutralize that poison (as per the spell). I do not like this change, not one little bit. Diamond Mind: An excellent power. Unfortunately, it doesn’t quite make up for the decreased Will save (see above). Diamond Resilience: DR/- is always good. And this lasts for 1 minute and scales. Pretty slowly, but it scales. I’ll give it a thumb’s up. Diamond Soul. Spell resistance. Either the bane of a Core Monk or a loved power (depending on your game). You can get this one early (by one level, 12th vs. 13th), but now you have to spend 2 ki (and a swift action) to activate for a number of rounds equal to your monk level. I’m torn. The point cost is kinda high, but no longer having a barrier vs. spells your party casts on you is also good. Elemental Fury: What is this? Dragonball Z? It is not my cup of tea, but if you like having elemental damage on your unarmed strike, this is the power for you. Elemental Burst: Oh, and now we can do massive AoE energy damage (at 18th level) by spending FOUR points of ki. Not in my vision of the monk at all. But if it floats your boat . . . go for it. Empty Body: And wailing and gnashing of teeth began. There is apparently a typo which some folks have taken quite badly. They left out a line saying that you must be 16th level to select this power. Some folks apparently thought it would be appropriate to have etherealness at 4th!! Otherwise the same as the Core Monk, just available early (16th vs. 19th). Feather Balance: I like it! Unfortunately, it is rather limited for selection as one of only NINE ki powers that you will ever receive. Formless Mastery: We’ve discussed this one ad naseum, already. Maybe it would have been good if you could still select Style feats (just not being in a Stance while using the Power) . . . but as is, I doubt ANYONE will take it. And there is another type, it should be available at 6th level not 7th. Furious Defense: The former AC boost from Ki Pool! However, it is now an immediate action (not swift), but lasts only until the end of your next turn. Sigh. I’d just have left it as part of the ki pool myself. High Jump: We used to get this one at 5th level for free. Now we have to pick it. Bummer. Insightful Wisdom: I do like this power. Being able to grant an ally the ability to reroll a missed attack or saving throw is pretty darned nifty! Unfortunately, it costs 2 ki every time you use it and it burns your immediate action. Ki Blocker: How often do you fight monks? Or ninjas? Are you REALLY going to spend one of your precious few Ki Powers on something that makes those guys have to pay slightly more ki for the next hour? And spend more and make magi and gunslingers and swashbucklers spend a extra point? I didn’t think so. Ki Guardian: Good concept . . . poor execution. The point cost is rather high (if you are protecting the whole party) and if you fail a SINGLE save, than YOU are affected as if you failed YOUR saving throw. Ki Hurricane: Rock you like a hurricane! Good concept. I like the idea, but the point cost is EXTREME. At 11th level, it will cost you FIVE points of Ki (SEVEN if you spend a point to gain an additional attack on your flurry) to move and attack with all of your flurry attacks!! And you will provoke AoO’s from moving!! Ki Metabolism: I like it. Very thematic and (for once) there is no exorbitant point cost. One question: there seems to be no UPPER limit on the amount of time one can spend in suspended animation . . . was this deliberate? A 4th level monk could (conceivably) hibernate for a thousand years (or a million)? Ki Mount: Monks have mounts now? Pass. Ki Range: Good power, although situational. Don’t like the point cost though; it should have been (in my opinion) “as long as you have at least 1 point remaining in your ki pool, you increase the range increment of any thrown monk weapon by 20 feet.” THAT would have been worth it. Ki Visions: Thematic. Not sure how useful, but thematic. The cost is rather high, though. Ki Volley: Who needs a ring of spell turning? Not this guy! Unfortunately, you have to be 16th level to select this (which is a shame because the cost is pretty much where I’d put it at 2 ki per use). Light Steps: Love this power! Excellent job, guys. One Touch: And this one is pretty good as well. As long as you have at least 1 point in your pool, you can make a standard action attack against any opponent as a touch attack, adding ½ your monk level in bonus damage!! Very nice. Even though it comes in late (12th level). Qinggong Power: Pick any existing qinggong power and it is yours. However, if the same power is repeated in Unchained, you must use the Unchained version!! Barkskin ahoy! Quivering Palm: Just why? Why the changes? You get it one level later, it takes a standard action, and you have to spend FOUR freaking ki!! Slow Fall: Another one that we all used to have. Sure, it is better (maybe, since you have to be adjacent to a wall (not vines, not trees, not anything similar, but a wall) the entire length of your fall of benefit. Oh, and you have to spend ki. Sudden Speed: Definitely better since it lasts for a minute and adds 30’ as opposed to 20’. Still would have rather left it as a basic part of the pool, though. Water Sprint: Another good one. I would have thought that Feather Balance would have been a pre-req . . . but maybe that is just me. Wind Jump: Very useful. I’m not one of these, “it’s fly but not really, so I’m mad as heck and not gonna take it anymore” people. For what you pay, it is a cool and useful power. Wholeness of Body: As opposed to this. Too little healing for too much cost, same as the Core Monk. Sigh. Still Mind: Unchanged from the Core Monk, but you get it a level later (4th instead of 3rd). Purity of Body: Unchanged from the Core Monk. Style Strike: And we have a winner!! I like this a lot. It adds thematic goodness and options to the monk and ensures that unarmed combat is always going to be the monk’s thing. I don’t like all of the Styles, but that is personal preference. Good job. Improved Evasion: Unchanged from the Core Monk. Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Dropped from 17th level to 13th level!! Otherwise unchanged from the Core Monk. I like this. Timeless Body: Unchanged from the Core Monk. Flawless Mind: If you fail a Will save, roll again and take the better result!! If it has a duration of 1 hour or more, than get a save every hour! It is great . . . but you don’t get it until 19th level. Perfect Self: Mostly unchanged. However, they added a ki recharge ability (1 point per 10 minutes of meditation . . . well, they say calm, but I think they meant meditation). Which is wonderful . . . if it didn’t show up at 20th level. ******************************************************************** Overall, I believe that I agree with Dabbler and the others. Combat damage got a boost (a big one), but (almost) everything else was weakened, resulting in a class of about the same general power level as the Core Monk. Some of the things that I consider basic thematic concepts were pushed away and the Unchained Monk is weaker for it. For my own game, I am probably going to add back in the constant powers it used to have, change the d10 back to a d8, and give it a good Will save. I like the idea and the concept, but the devil is always in the details and man, there is a lot of deviltry at work at here! Still, there are many things that I do like . . . scratch that, that I LOVE. The folks who worked on this had many original ideas (Style Strikes and some rather cool Ki Powers, for example) that deserve to be part and parcel of the class. It just . . . well, to me it seems more of a Brawler archetype (in places) than a Monk. Which is disappointing. But don’t worry, Paizo. I’m still going to buy the book when it arrives at my local bookstore. MA
Hi, London Duke! Yes, I've seen the same problems crop up, which is why I am considering changing Eldritch Hands so that the Warlock can manipulate only a single object at a time (regardless of level). MA
Yeah, I was being sarcastic about it. If I recall correctly, some of the Paizo staff have actually used that excuse in the past.Money Advantage where? SKR, I believe it was. MA
This was mentioned earlier. Jason has confirmed its supposed to be 18.No minimum level or prerequisites? Thought I would post this here, since some people were jumping onto the lack of minimums and were excited about taking Empty Body early. No, you have to wait until 18th level. MA
with full bab i can see myself actually taking sensei or master of many styles for more than a dip now. Existing archetypes do not work with the Unchained Monk . . . both the book and Mark (earlier in this thread) have said so. MA
A lot of stuff. Ah, Tels, my man, I respect you and your opinion on these boards, and I do agree IN GENERAL that unarmed strikes fall into a 'no-man's land' of neither fish nor fowl. However, when talking about Monks in specific, there is a little clause under the 1st level Monk special ability Unarmed Strike: A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. So, by RAW, both magic fang and magic weapon (and their greater versions) definitely apply to a Monk's unarmed strike. Haste (at least in my opinion and, to the best of my knowledge, that of the design team) as well. As would keen edge. Now, I used the text from the existing Pathfinder Monk, since I do not yet have Unchained. You are right that haste affects the wielder and not the weapon. However, I believe that is an oversight and almost NO ONE (in my experience) actually plays so stridently glued to the RAW as to enforce this interpretation. MA
No. That's why all of my armored characters have a chain shirt (with armor spikes) by level 3 at the latest. It's their PJs.When your opponents attack in the dead of night when you are asleep and not wearing armor?I think that the Monk Variant Multi-Class gave unarmed strike (Fairly sure someone mentioned that)... but I don't know if it does anything to shore up you're defense. Yeah, that is one rule that I (and my group) toss right out the window. You do NOT sleep in metal armor. Or studded leather. Much less anything with armor spikes. Same with swimming in plate . . . ain't gonna happen. MA
I think that the Monk Variant Multi-Class gave unarmed strike (Fairly sure someone mentioned that)... but I don't know if it does anything to shore up you're defense. Guys, it isn't always about the builds. Haven't you ever played in a game where the party gets split up? When your opponents attack in the dead of night when you are asleep and not wearing armor? Been through a scenario when you don't have access to your weapons or magic items? I have. Plenty of times. Being able to punch like a monk of just a few levels beneath yours, having flurry of blows, getting a +3 dodge bonus to AC, and gaining a ki pool are all good things for when the unexpected happens. And if I am reading these posts right, the VMC (variant multi-class) Monk doesn't require you to be lawful to gain those abilities. MA
Just be sure to make it absolutely clear to the designers that you are not looking to have it changed, and I think we can still be friends. :P...why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage? I remember the old days of 1E, when the Monk only got those extra attacks (up to FOUR, which was huge!) with his 'open-hand attacks'. Use a weapon, and you went back to 1 attack per round, the same as every class in the PHB except the Fighter. But, in compensation, the 1E Monk also got to add his Monk Class level as bonus damage to any weapon attack (this did NOT include 'open-hand attacks', by the way). So, yeah. I'm cool with it and with the introduction of Style Strikes (which cannot be used with a weapon) it doesn't render UAS irrelevant. I just want to know why the designers saw fit to make that change, especially if they were worried about the first few levels of the Monk being too good for dippers. MA
...why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage? Because I want to know what the intent behind it was. The rationale of the change. :) MA
1. Can you offer any insight into why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage? That one change seems, to me, to make other classes WANT to dip more in order to gain that extra bonus attack (at level 1). It also has the side effect of making two-handed monk weapons (quarterstaff, temple sword, etc.) overshadow (to some degree) unarmed strikes. Although since, to the best of my knowledge since I have not yet READ the Unchained Monk for myself, it does appear that Style Strikes are only available through unarmed attacks. Which is a mitigating factor for folks who play the Monk as a Class and not just a dip.You can't flurry if you're wearing armor, that alone prevents most classes from dipping Monk for the extra attack. Most, but not all. How about a shape-shifting druid? A barbarian (ala Conan of the movies) who isn't expecting heavy combat? A swashbuckling rogue? Or (heaven forbid) an unarmored Cleric? MA
@ Mark Seifter A couple of questions: 1. Can you offer any insight into why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage? That one change seems, to me, to make other classes WANT to dip more in order to gain that extra bonus attack (at level 1). It also has the side effect of making two-handed monk weapons (quarterstaff, temple sword, etc.) overshadow (to some degree) unarmed strikes. Although since, to the best of my knowledge since I have not yet READ the Unchained Monk for myself, it does appear that Style Strikes are only available through unarmed attacks. Which is a mitigating factor for folks who play the Monk as a Class and not just a dip. 2. Echoing Rynjin and Lemmy above, why the change to Quivering Palm? It used to work (or at least I thought it did) just like Stunning Fist in that you picked an attack, declared it a Quivering Palm, and had to hit and score damage (i.e., penetrate DR) for it to function. Sure, it can be used more than once per day now (if you have enough ki points, that is), but what was the discussions about changing it? Why was it changed? And on the Diamond Body issue. I am an avid monk player and frankly, I would rather than on an Oracle Curse as a permanent disability than give up my immunity to all poison once gained. It was that good of an ability. MA
Yeah, not flurrying with a single weapon was a sad time. It was more than a year ago by a fair amount. I was right there with you, since my hire was only last year in June (I was just Rogue Eidolon then instead of my current Unfettered Eidolon avatar). You are right. My god, has it really been three years since that little kerfuffle? MA
The thing is, ever since 1E, the monk has represented mental fortitude. Back in 'ye olden days', remember that the monk specifically gained an ability that gave him a 'virtual' 18 in Intelligence (and this was the days of 3d6, no rerolls, in order) against Psionic Blast and other Telepathic attacks. Of course, with the ability score requirements (quite steep) and difficulty in play (duels to determine whether or not you could advance a level), few played a monk. "He's Got a Lot to Kick About", the Dragon Magazine article, expanded the monk by four levels, beefed him up to a d6, and revamped a number of other abilities. Plus delayed (by four levels) the whole having to fight to gain your title thing. That class was far more playable (although it still required pretty good stat rolls . . . Str, Dex, and Wis of 15, Int 12, and Con 11, if I am remembering right) and it was the first monk class that I (personally) played when I started with D&D. I've been through the 'death of the monk' 2nd Edition, then rejoiced when it came back near the end of 2E and shouted hallelujah when it appeared in 3E. The 3.5 version corrected a number of things, and then I switched to Pathfinder. Don't get me wrong, Mark. I love the game. I'm not going to quit playing or buying the stuff Paizo puts out because I disagree with a few things they do with the monk. But it does seem (to me, perhaps to others) that folks in the company almost wish the monk didn't exist. It breaks the rules and doesn't fit the mold. And you can't just put it in a single niche. So it gets good things, and then those get 'revised' into meh things. We had this big (HUGE) blowup last year when it came down from on high that you couldn't flurry with a single weapon! Jason reversed course on that and fixed a few problems at the time. Did it solve everything? No. That is why we older gamers (older fans) were so excited about the Unchained Monk! We were hoping beyond hope that it would address MAD in some way, that it would fix the disconnect between moving fast (and hitting fast) and the gap between a standard attack and the (all-but-stationary) flurry of blows. That the monk, a Core Class would finally gain enough ki points in their pool to use their abilities as many rounds per day as a bard can rage or the bard can sing! And some of those things Unchained does. Others it doesn't. But frankly, having the class give up what has been one of the CORE ABILITIES of the class since 1E to pay for a small increase in flurry (2 points), a moderate increase in standard attacks (5 points over 20 levels), and an average of 1 extra hit point per level (d10 HD vs. d8) . . . many of us are just literally face-palming. Do they get it? we ask? And yeah, some do. Some don't. But the published version makes it look like the 'some don't' won out . . . again. I'll play the game. I'll buy the products. But I am so disappointed in the class. That is not to say there are NO good things. There are plenty of them. Just not enough to stand out against the bad . . . or the ugly. MA
Back on the poor Will save topic: I think I know why the developers dropped it. It would have been too good of a dip in canon (not variant) multi-classing. Dip two levels of Unchained Monk and get +2 BAB, 2d10, multiple feats, and +3 to all Saves!! Yeah? Unfortunately, I think they missed an opportunity here. I mean how they kept Still Mind exactly the same (but pushed it back to 4th level): A monk gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects. If they had done this instead:
it might well have not sparked this debate. Four levels is a LOT for folks looking to dip. It would be a delayed good Will save, but that I could live with. And if doing that was still too much, then I wouldn't mind dropping the hit die back down to a d8. Making the class even less attractive as a dip. Just my thoughts. MA
Fighters, with Weapon Training, are able to fight well and fight consistently where other classes tend to have similar/greater/lesser bonuses only situationally. I agree, the fighter could use two more skill points. But, with everything else (Stamina, combat tricks, background skills) that is included in Unchained, I'd play a fighter (a straight fighter) in a heartbeat. MA
Life imitates art . . . art imitates life. Who knew? MA
Ranking them in the order I might take them: 5th: Spin Kick
Defensive Spin is nifty, but kinda meh.
MA
Just from the CRB (and not including the feats already on the Monk's bonus feat list): Acrobatic, Acrobatic Steps, Agile Maneuvers, Alertness, Athletic, Blind Fight, Combat Expertise, Critical Focus, Defensive Combat Training, Diehard, Endurance, Extra Ki, Fleet, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Disarm, Greater Grapple, Greater Sunder, Greater Trip, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Sunder, Lightning Stance, Lunge, Nimble Moves, Run, Stand Still, Step Up, Strike Back, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Whirlwind Attack, and Wind Stance. Every one of those are thematic and fit the concept of the monk. MA
I'm curious how other people build monk AC. My 13 Dex, high Wis PFS monk usually had either the highest AC in the party or was very competitive with an extremely tanky other character (counting her qinggong barkskin power as active, as well as her wand of mage armor). Is that not usually the case for other people? I've seen a few posts here saying that they agree that monks usually have high AC and a few saying that monks usually have low. I prefer a 'balanced' approach when I build a Monk. I try to keep Str, Dex, and Wis equal (or nearly equal), trailed by Con and Int (once again roughly equal to each other) and last by poor, poor, Charisma. That has a lot of disadvantages, of course. I don't have the hitting power of a Monk that concentrates on Strength, or the extremely high AC of a Dex or Wis build (or the attack bonus of a Dexterity based Monk with Weapon Finesse). However, while I'm not the 'best' at any one thing, I usually come in a pretty close second or third . . . and there are no glaring weaknesses. I have seen some folks design monks that totally focused on Strength . . . at the expense of other stats. Those monks tend to have very low AC. Of course, they punch harder as well. But yes, Mark, I agree with you. I've seen rather more Monks with high AC than low AC. MA
He's referring specifically to the core monk's ki pool having the innate ability to buy extra movement. The Unchained monk's ki pool has only one innate ability: buying extra attacks on a flurry. The extra move and the AC bonus have both become ki powers.Also, monks losing their movement (now called Sudden Speed) and...Wait, is fast movement no longer constantly active? Yeah, I saw this last night in one of Cerebus Seven's posts. I DO NOT like this. It takes away from the Monk what he has been able to do since Pathfinder began. Sure, you can pick these as ki powers . . . but should they HAVE to pick? It is another nerf on a class that didn't need a nerf. I'll still buy the book and the PDF, but I'm getting more and more disappointed hearing about the details. MA
Don't use vampires much, I take it? I've played in games where one vamp managed to use party members to stalk and kill nearly all of the other players before we could figure our what was going on and take down (with nonlethal damage) our friend. MA
Lowering the Monks Will save is, frankly, completely unacceptable, no matter what else changed. One of those new abilities only comes into play at 19th level, Rhedyn. The second applies only versus fear effects . . . retroactively. (I.e., you have to fail your save, become shaken, frightened, panicked, etc. and THEN you can spend an action (and a ki point) to regain control of yourself. MA
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Didn't we just go through this last year? MA
Here are a few of Robert Jordan's post from the other thread about monk abilities: Anyone with the pdf willing to share what the unchained monk gets to boost will saves for peace of mind purposes? Robert Jordan mentioned something about a "Diamond Mind" ability few pages back.I mentioned it in a previous post but Diamond Mind lets the monk deal with fear, something the core monk can't do anything with besides make the save or fail it. Diamond Mind let's the monk spend 1 ki point as a swift action to suppress fear as per the Remove Fear spell. They can also spend 2 ki points to activate it even when frightened or panicked. Have to be level 6 monk to pick it. The Unchained monk has a Ki power option that's just Qinggong Power, what it says on the tin grab a power from the Qinggong Monk choices for the appropriate level.
MA
A couple. Ki guardian allows the monk to spend ki points to make saving throws against AoE or multiple target effects on behalf of his allies; insightful wisdom allows the monk to spend 2 ki as an immediate action to allow an ally to reroll an attack or saving throw. 4th level: 2 + Wis 5th level (Extra Ki): 2 + Wis + 26th level: 3 + Wis + 2 7th level (Extra Ki): 3 + Wis + 4 8th level: 4 + Wis + 4 9th level (Extra Ki): 4 + Wis + 6 10th level: 5 + Wis + 6 11th level (Extra Ki): 5 + Wis + 8 12th level: 6 + Wis + 8 13th level (Extra Ki): 6 + Wis + 10 14th level: 7 + Wis + 10 15th level (Extra Ki): 7 + Wis + 12 16th level: 8 + Wis + 12 17th level (Extra Ki): 8 + Wis + 14 18th level: 9 + Wis + 14 19th level (Extra Ki): 9 + Wis + 16 20th level: 10 + Wis + 16 Golly gee wilikers! Look at that! By spending EIGHT feats all on Extra Ki, than by 20th level I have a total of 26 + Wisdom bonus in my ki pool! Good thing I don't really need those eight feats for combat or anything. Human favored class? Add 1 point at 4th, 2 at 8th, 3 at 12th, 4 at 16th, and 5 at 20th. I'd rather have the extra skill points (20) or extra hit points (20). EDIT: And take a look at the ki point cost. Each round of combat, the monk is looking at spending at least 1 ki point (for an extra attack, extra movement, or a +4 dodge bonus). Now, he has to spend ki to slow fall. Wholeness of body? 2 ki for 1d8+level . . . man, I wish those potions weren't so darned expensive! 2 ki for Diamond Soul (spell resistance). 1 point to neutralize poison (as a standard action). 1 point to jump farther (but still limited by your movement). 2 points to use abundant step. Use empty body for 3 points. Use quivering palm (which used to cost NOTHING) for FOUR points. The monk burns through ki like mad. He just does not have enough to last a typical adventuring day (unless your day consists of just one encounter). MA
A couple. Ki guardian allows the monk to spend ki points to make saving throws against AoE or multiple target effects on behalf of his allies; insightful wisdom allows the monk to spend 2 ki as an immediate action to allow an ally to reroll an attack or saving throw. I do like those . . . I'd like them better if the monk had more than 1/2 his monk levels + Wisdom bonus in his ki pool. :( MA
I remember. And I doubt (seriously doubt) I'm going to get the monk I want either. Don't get me wrong, the Unchained Monk has some good things (from what I've heard about it). But (and there is always a but), I also don't like some of things I'm hearing. MA
Care to talk about those new abilities? :) MA
I'll start: Flawless Mind does not cost ki, nor do you have to pick it as a ki power. You just get it automatically. Good to hear. As I said, I'll reserve my opinion until I can actually read the class, but I am hoping for good things. MA
To start us off, I am going to post the review of Unchained by Dabbler. At least the parts of it that deal with the Monk.
Okay. With folks getting their first looks at Unchained, I have decided to start a new thread where we can discuss the Unchained Monk. Whether for good, for bad, for the big things, or the little things, this is the place to let it all hang out. For myself, I haven't seen the PDF yet. I will be getting the book (and the PDF), but I am not a subscriber, so I've got to wait. Sigh. BUT, from what folks have said . . . I'm torn. Some things look good. Very good. I like the change to flurry of blows (mostly, I need to read it carefully to make certain) no longer having a penalty AND the UM having full BAB. I like the concept behind the additional ki powers, but dislike that the ki pool remains so small. I like the new Styles (flying kick alone promises to be awesome and I cannot wait to see (or hear) about the others). I'm not sure, however, that bumping up the hit die to a d10 was needed . . . especially with the Will save being reduced to poor. Now, Anyway, I am going to reserve opinion until I actually get the book (or PDF) and sit down and READ the class and new abilities several times. But until then, feel free to post your own thoughts, opinions, and critiques. MA EDIT: It was actually Robert Jordan who told us about Diamond Mind and Flawless Mind, not Mark. Sorry about that, Robert.
I am going to wait until I get the book to make that choice, Dabbler. I do want to see the new ki powers . . . although I'll admit that the revelation (by you) that formerly constant abilities now cost ki (and the ki pool did NOT increase) is worrisome. I agree 100% with your evaluation of the 'nerf' on Will saves and will NOT be using that aspect of the class, regardless of the rest. I do like the change to BAB and flurry of blows, but (once again) some aspects are worrisome. Like there being no mention of constant strength damage for light, one-handed, and two-handed weapons. That means using a quarterstaff or temple sword (two-handed) will do 1.5xStr bonus . . . which removes incentive for using unarmed strikes. Sigh. I hope that there are some good things in the class, but I am leery given the early reports. MA
From earlier in this, I can think of: Will saves are now poor, and flurry doesn't dish out quite as many attacks (they are, however, more likely to hit).** spoiler omitted ** Yeah, I read that after I replied! I am now SAD PANDA. :{ I don't really understand WHY the design team felt like they had to give the Monk a d10 hit die either. Sure, normally a full BAB is pegged to a d10 . . . but there are exceptions. The barbarian's d12 for example. I might well (once I get the book) go back to a d8 and either restore the old Will save or perhaps go to a Medium-progression Will save, ala the old Unearthed Arcana. Everything else I have heard (so far), I've liked. MA
** spoiler omitted ** Can't wait to see it. But one big question: what did the monk LOSE? MA
When is the release date, again? MA
I've never cared for Eldritch Glaive. We already had Hideous Blow (although it didn't really work too well at the time)and the ability to make multiple melee attacks with an Eldritch Blast (as with Eldritch Glaive) always felt . . . cheesy. At least to me. Some people loved that invocation; in fact a number of people that I knew considered it a must have invocation. Being as these were my "power" players (i.e., those who just have to optimize every character they play to the max), I very quickly nixed the invocation. MA
It is a good spell, Zolnax and very thematic. However, I am leery about adding too many spells to the Warlock's list. And, as you have said, it is already available for selection via Eldritch Knowledge. MA
Dotting for later comments (when I have more time). MA |
