How to date a dragon?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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I know what you're thinking. "Not another friggin' horny bard thread!" This is a good-faith question though. It actually came up at my table.

Here's the TLDR: A brass dragon had been trapped for centuries in a magical prison. Desperate for freedom, she tried to trick the party in swapping places with her. In the form of a half-elf, she begged the party's paladin to just -- pretty please -- step onto the suspicious dais.

"Alrighty then," said the paladin. "As long as you don't turn out to be some kind of creature that forces me to look on helplessly while you attack my friends, I guess I'll do it. Because I'm a paladin. And I believe in helping people. In fact, I can even imagine a scenario where I would still want to help someone even if they'd been less than honest with me up to that point."

Dude basically guilted the good (but slightly mad) dragon into admitting her ruse. The party managed to do a bit of problem-solving, and actually got the dragon out of prison. In gratitude, Calleosis (aka Callie) the dragon volunteered to serve the party for a year and a day. And because she was one of those "gregarious and whimsical" brass dragons, I thought it would be a good idea to give her a sense of humor.

"She returns to her half-elf form," I improvised, not wanting to give them a literal dragon cohort. "Only she's wearing a servant's livery this time."

"You mean, like, a maid outfit?" joked one of my other players.

I ran with it. And now I find myself trying to figure out what courtship would look like between this selfless paladin and his secretly-a-dragon maid.

The situation is ridiculous enough to have me stymied. What kind of plot developments would you spin out of this setup? I certainly don't want it to get weird, but I do want to support this paladin's chosen narrative. Any help with romantic comedy plots? It's a bit outside my wheelhouse in terms of genre.


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Honestly ... I've watched a bit too much anime at this point in which to offer really helpful advice in this regard.

....

Just kidding. No such thing as too much anime. Just too little time.

Anyway, I'd play a budding romance off of the dutiful nature of the Paladin and the gregarious/whimsical nature of the dragon that has assumed a more servant role (ie, willingly submitting to a kind of lawful role as a servant). Treat it a bit like the 'no fraternization' rule that is present in the military, but have moments where the line is skirted until the year and a day is up. The dragon should very well be the instigator of those moments, just to test the Paladin's resolve and strength of character, though more than willing to go along if the Paladin caves. It is all about the tease, the bait, the switch, and the snatching away of the ideal moment.

Secondly, have her stubbornly remain in her half-elf form regardless of the circumstances, unwilling to submit her actual dragon powers to those of the mortals until they have actually earned her favor (or, in the Paladin's case, heart).

As far as plot points go, I might start her out as a bit too over protective of the Paladin, and overly eager to dote on him. Quick to step in front of those who publicly speak down to him and maybe over zealously react with her above-human level of strength... That should result in the Paladin attempting to reign in the protective behavior a bit. After that, I'd probably have enemy NPCs start taking notice of the 'civilian' the Paladin keeps hauling around with him and attempt (at least once) to use her against him, though they fail horribly because .. dragon. Still, it will get the Paladin to develop more of a bond with the dragon because there is a more personal tie between them.


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I would go completelely hog wild.

From her previous days, the brass dragon was decently well acquainted with a Leanansidhe, a reasonable Jorugumo a Swan Maiden, an Empusa and a Valkyrie. They all miss her, and her incredibly good tea making skills (play those up with the maid outfit) dearly!

They discover that their Dragon Bestie is free again, and immidiatly believe that the vile Paladin enslaved her! Hijinks ensue.

Also, gives the opportunity to date quite powerful an dangerous things which arent Succubi to other party members!


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What level is the party/Paladin?

I think I would also keep her in humanoid form, because reasons. Play her as you would control a Sorcerer NPC, as if the Paladin had taken Leadership... if you want to keep her as "more powerful" than the party, then you could reverse the cohort-master level relationship to keep her a few levels higher rather than the standard 2 levels lower.

Dragon's age/Sorcerer level:
Paladin's shouldn't date juveniles
Young Adult/CL5
Adult/CL7
Mature Adult/CL9
Old/CL11
Very Old/CL13
Ancient/CL15
Wyrm/CL17
Great Wyrm/CL19


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Obligatory Kobayashi-san's Dragon Maid plug.

The only thing I can add to what others have said is to not focus too much on this relationship. However fun it might be, the game ideally focuses equally on all PCs, and if it turns too much to paladin's romcom (possibly harem comedy) it will probably be at the cost of other players' time. It might be fun to do some stuff on the side with this player only so you don't waste much game time.


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Whimsical/gregarious, chaotic, and powerful...
I would have her treat all the PCs in a manner that would make them uncomfortable and nervous at all times. She owes them (and knows it) but is also a little resentful at having been rescued by mortals.

She treats the Paladin like a master because he is uncomfortable with her advances. She flirts because she knows he won't abuse her position. She would, therefore, also screw around with the other characters. If there is someone who wants to attract her attention, she shape changes into a nun. If there's someone who wants to the greatest performer in all of Golarion, she just happens to juggle one more object than they can.

Everyone is fair game for this dragon!


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The paladin as a class has restraints. He should go and talk to a cleric of his faith and discuss the situation and his options and/or pray about it. Make sure as a GM you know his tenets and that they are written down. Beyond that he has the normal range of responses.

The dragon may have a hoard or old territory. That will be a big draw for her to re-establish her territory and check on old lairs and old friends. She'll also try to manipulate the party to do a few things for her.

I think the dragon needs to come up with a way for the party to contact her in a time of need, like a horn/whistle/music box/8-ball/picture or scroll of calling... Having her hangout with the party isn't a good idea IMO as it will be a distraction and a source of convenient power.

With Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid the dragon is a bit ditzi and tries to support her 'master' in her own goofy way. It borders on a platonic love story. There are several running gags.


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DRD1812 wrote:

Here's the TLDR: A brass dragon had been trapped for centuries in a magical prison.

...
Dude basically guilted the good (but slightly mad) dragon
...
And because she was one of those "gregarious and whimsical" brass dragons, I thought it would be a good idea to give her a sense of humor.

"She returns to her half-elf form," I improvised, not wanting to give them a literal dragon cohort. "Only she's wearing a servant's livery this time."

'''

The situation is ridiculous enough to have me stymied. What kind of plot developments would you spin out of this setup? I certainly don't want it to get weird, but I do want to support this paladin's chosen narrative. Any help with romantic comedy plots? It's a bit outside my wheelhouse in terms of genre.

Are you sure this isn't an anime of some sort?

Having an idea of what levels the party are at and how old the dragon is would help. How is she turning into a halfelf, spell or innate ability (like certain other dragons get "change shape")?

Some random ideas;
A) because she was trapped for so long she can't transform into her dragon form and is trapped as a halfelf. Maybe she just can't control it.
1- A rival attacks and she can't transform to defend herself.
2- She accidentally transforms in public and the guards (who don't know brass dragons are usually good) attack.

B) Her social/knowledge skills are centuries out of date.
1- She gives the party "helpful" advice (which she fully believes) which is anything but helpful, shenanigans ensue.
2- While alone or performing an errand for the paladin she commits a crime against a noble and gets arrested.
3- She misinterprets a social interaction of some sort

C) she is slightly mad.
1- Claustrophobia;
2- She has been alone for so long she might have some of these symptoms; (From Cabin Fever)
Changes in sleep patterns
Decreased motivation
Difficulty waking
Food cravings
Frequent napping
Hopelessness
Lack of patience
Lethargy
Sadness or depression
Trouble concentrating
3- She has "forgotten" how fragile humanoids tend to be, so one of her "whimsical" jokes goes too far and hurts/kills an npc or causes significant damage.


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the Paladin should give her a nice diamond and check her for "spirits" using a geiger counter. Then he'll be carbon dating an ancient dragon which also answers the thread title.


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Niemand wrote:
the Paladin should give her a nice diamond and check her for "spirits" using a geiger counter. Then he'll be carbon dating an ancient dragon which also answers the thread title.

I assume you mean radiocarbon dating, which is used to estimate how long ago a creature died.

Although perhaps dragons are inherently radioactive at birth and it diminishes over time in a predictable way, therefore radiocarbon dating can predict how long they have been alive. That would be cool. I bet that is a piece of dragon lore that is often overlooked.


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Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Niemand wrote:
the Paladin should give her a nice diamond and check her for "spirits" using a geiger counter. Then he'll be carbon dating an ancient dragon which also answers the thread title.

I assume you mean radiocarbon dating, which is used to estimate how long ago a creature died.

Although perhaps dragons are inherently radioactive at birth and it diminishes over time in a predictable way, therefore radiocarbon dating can predict how long they have been alive. That would be cool. I bet that is a piece of dragon lore that is often overlooked.

don't forget diamonds are tightly bound rather pure carbon and people like it better than graphite or anthracite, just added to the pun.

Sunspot activity also slows overall radioactive decay which should be added to the estimate to improve the accuracy. I believe it may add long distance tunneled mass potentials as that probability condenses into stable matter.


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Niemand wrote:
the Paladin should give her a nice diamond and check her for "spirits" using a geiger counter. Then he'll be carbon dating an ancient dragon which also answers the thread title.

1) A Geiger counter won't give you any information because you need to know how much total carbon to figure out how much of it is C-14.

2) The dragon is walking around--the date is going to come back as current. Under normal conditions you don't do a carbon date on something that's alive--once in a while you see scientists dating living objects when they are actually trying to measure their environment. Date something you found in a cave and what you're really measuring is how often the air exchanges between that location and the outside world.


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Loren Pechtel wrote:
{some statements}

it is a pun...

I appreciate the technical response even though it seems off.


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I would have the dragon be extremely talkative... to a soldier/Paladin, this is probably bothersome, and a constant test to the Paladin's faith and patience regardless of being "in love" with her. Her constant talking is similar to a child asking questions about the world around them, but she is so experienced and learned that it comes off as continuous mansplaining... an annoying tour guide, at best. Given that she is much, MUCH more knowledgable than the Paladin, he probably will struggle with feeling/looking stupid around her... even feeling like she is patronizing him due to the childish nature of her bantering. However, she is also very likely not religious in the slightest... so the one thing the Paladin may want to actually talk to her about is the ONE thing that doesn't interest her at all.

She is chaotic "by nature" and will have very opposing philosopies about essentially everything... especially given how many of the Paladin's choices are driven by his religion. Her pragmatism would be borderline blasphemous. Regardless of deities being real in this scenario, his devotion could likely be proven illogical provided with the proper evidence. And she is likely to possess the very knowledge capable of logically rebutting nearly every faith-based decision he makes. Paladins rarely enjoy being made to look like foolish zealots.

I think the marriage will last. They are absolutely made for each other. Hopefully the Paladin is from somewhere really cold, so they can always fight over the thermostat, too. And with any luck, the Paladin absolutely hates spicy food...

As for playing her with the party, I think a Half-Elf Sorcerer could be the easiest and most fitting way to build her. Personally, I would make her a Sorceress of Sleep, to go with the Brass Dragon's Sleep Breath... and I would love to see what the Paladin thinks of her drug habit.


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Niemand wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
{some statements}

it is a pun...

I appreciate the technical response even though it seems off.

If you had left off the Geiger counter bit I would have left it as a pun.


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Let's make her a Mature Adult Brass Dragon... as she gets her Fire Aura when she turns Old, and I would save this for when the Paladin dies... her loss and rage burn so hot she never lets anyone near her, ever again. I would let her keep her breath weapon, move sand, sleep breath, and spell-like abilities... even in her Half-Elf form.

Mature Adult Brass Dragon SLA's:
(CL 16th; concentration +19)
At will—endure elements, speak with animals, suggestion (DC 16)

Mature Adult makes her CL 9 for her Sorcerer casting. I would probably just combine her spellcasting with her Sorcerer spellcasting... like add her spells known to her Sorcerer spells known, and just use her Sorcerer spells per day. Not sure if she would actually have two pools of spells per day, and you could probably cheat her to have double to normal spells per day to showcase her supreme magical talents... or whatever. She is an NPC, so she has exactly as many spells as you need her to. Lol.

Mature Adult Brass Dragon Spells Known:
(CL 9th; concentration +12)
4th (4/day)—charm monster (DC 19), confusion (DC 19)
3rd (7/day)—displacement, hold person (DC 18), tongues
2nd (7/day)—alter self, detect thoughts (DC 15), resist energy, see invisibility
1st (7/day)—alarm, charm person (DC 16), protection from evil, shield, ventriloquism
0 (at will)—arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound (DC 13), mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic

As a level 9 Sorceress of Sleep, I would give her the Fey Bloodline to go with the whole Half-Elf thing. This capitalizes on the feats she already has, and she doesn't already know the Bloodline Spells. At this level, she has Woodland Stride and she can turn invisible as per Greater Invisibility for 9 rounds per day.

Mature Adult Brass Dragon Feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Hover, Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Spell Focus (enchantment)

I would really try to showcase her skills... like she always has to catch herself from bluffing people when the Paladin is around, but otherwise she will outright lie to people without thinking any harm of it.

Mature Adult Brass Dragon Skills:
Bluff +22, Diplomacy +22, Fly +14, Heal +22, Linguistics +22, Perception +26, Sense Motive +26, Spellcraft +22, Survival +22


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It's the wrong character types, but I am having flashbacks to Donkey and Dragon from Shrek.


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DRD1812 wrote:
And now I find myself trying to figure out what courtship would look like between this selfless paladin and his secretly-a-dragon maid.
Azothath wrote:
The paladin as a class has restraints. He should go and talk to a cleric of his faith and discuss the situation and his options and/or pray about it.
VoodistMonk wrote:
I think the marriage will last. They are absolutely made for each other.
RainOfSteel wrote:
It's the wrong character types, but I am having flashbacks to Donkey and Dragon from Shrek.

I'm having flashbacks too... to Huma from Dragonlance. In case you don't know the story, here's the general (though inaccurate) idea: The paladin and the dragon fall in love. Meanwhile some great crisis involving an invasion of an army of evil dragons arises. The paladin prays to his deity asking what to do and gets an answer: "You have two choices. The dragon could turn humanoid permanently and marry you. Or - as a dragon - she can provide valuable help dealing with the dragon-army crisis. You can't have both."

Well, you know what a paladin has to choose.


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VoodistMonk wrote:

What level is the party/Paladin?

Party just hit Level 18 of the megadungeon, and are hovering around APL 17.

I quite like DeathlessOne's idea about 'no fraternization' until the year and a day is up.

Combine that with Mightypion's idea about the magical monster friendgroup who "hate to see their friend cruelly bound by a heartless paladin" and I think we've got a good plot.

Not quite sure how what level of critters to bring in though. Straight skill challenges always get a big silly when you're dealing with high-level play. The modifiers are so goofy-large that I have trouble keeping things reasonable.


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Thats pretty high level, so slap some hero levels on her previous tea circle.

From personal experience, do not actually fully stat out these NPC as if building a player character, but have an outline you finish on the fly.
You could specifically have a fight against her tea circle, but communicate to the party that they are not out to kill you, this is a "hijinks and shenangians episode".

individual ideas:

Spider Girl
The Jorugumo fights a bit like Spiderman, confusing people with talking (feint, but at range) and then using dirty tricks to restrain them (mechanically doable as a bounty hunter slayer with the full dirty trick feat line), she doesnt actually have the feats for that, but who cares its a creature.

By the power of Metal Girl
The Valykrie flies around, but she is a pretty (power-)metal girl so unlike weak emo-Eryines, she uses a Maxim Gun (or maybe a flame thrower) as her primary armament while shooting on the run. If called out on her Erinye like fighting style, she will become increasingly enraged and use her Maxim Gun as a 2 handed bludgeoning weapon in melee.

Librarian
The Leanansidhe is sworn to Magd (lawfull neutral alignment), dipped in scaled fist, and is a bit of a relatively quit shy bookworm-Librarian. She uses her librarian powers to be highly effective at silencing spellcasters, as well as dispell magicing freedom of movement or fly effects.
"No Flying, Shouting, or running around unimpeded in MY LIBRARY!"

Actually mean girl
Allowing her Empusa or maybe Rusalka friend (levels in probably kidnapper) to effectively grapple them and subdue them.

Liberty's Edge

Mightypion wrote:

Thats pretty high level, so slap some hero levels on her previous tea circle.

From personal experience, do not actually fully stat out these NPC as if building a player character, but have an outline you finish on the fly.
You could specifically have a fight against her tea circle, but communicate to the party that they are not out to kill you, this is a "hijinks and shenangians episode".

** spoiler omitted **

It could also be fun if they stay the same and over the course of encounters get levels as they try to out pace this powerful enemy before they finally learn the truth and have to join the group as a form of apology. (Wouldn't do to kill off the Dragon Maids friends after all)

That way they can have a story arc of the friends trying and failing to take out the party that never kills them because the Dragon tells the party that they are friends and seem to have "misunderstood something" That way they have their own training arcs.

If we go fully anime, then I suppose each of the friends would fall for different party members too then, that or the poor Paladin might end up with a harem with more headache inducing Gming


Michael Talley 759 wrote:


If we go fully anime, then I suppose each of the friends would fall for different party members too then, that or the poor Paladin might end up with a harem with more headache inducing Gming

But does the paladin have the obliviousness to be an anime harem protagonist? There are anime standards to take into consideration.

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