Weapon Damage types


Rules Questions


So perhaps my googlefu is failing me and its just that hard of a problem to describe or it has been answered before, but is there functionally a difference between a weapon that has two damage types and one that has either type? E.g. Is a weapon with "B or P" any different in practice better or worse in any conceivable circumstances than a "B and P" weapon?

My assumption is no because you can call in the or case which ever is better of the two say in the case of DR, but maybe because you have to call it you're supposed to have a chance to call wrong in case you don't know the enemy's DR. (Also who even bothers to remember if you have an or or an and (Irori this is confusing) to even call one or the other?) There also isn't any downside to an and weapon whatsoever as the damage doesn't get split, it just checks if you have one of the damage types for DR or all of the excluded damage types for damage immunity.


"or" means it does only one damage type at a time. You have to choose how to use it. A dagger is slashing or piercing.

"and" means it does both types at the same time. You don't have to select. A morningstar does bludgeoning and piercing together.

This is generally only a thing when dealing with DR of certain creatures.

Shadow Lodge

marcryser wrote:

"or" means it does only one damage type at a time. You have to choose how to use it. A dagger is slashing or piercing.

"and" means it does both types at the same time. You don't have to select. A morningstar does bludgeoning and piercing together.

This is generally only a thing when dealing with DR of certain creatures.

Damage types are often significant against Oozes as well.


Yes, but my question is in the fact that (at least if you know) you can simply choose the damage type as suits the DR. That combined with I guess select oozes winds up making the supposedly better (according to the custom weapon rules) "and" option actually worse than the or.

Shadow Lodge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Yes, but my question is in the fact that (at least if you know) you can simply choose the damage type as suits the DR. That combined with I guess select oozes winds up making the supposedly better (according to the custom weapon rules) "and" option actually worse than the or.

Yes, 'or' is generally better than 'and' for weapon damage types (unless you are using a virtual table top and really don't want to include copies of your weapon for each damage type).

Liberty's Edge

RAW "or" will force you into selecting the type of damage you make, so in very rare instances it can matter.
I don't recall ever asking the players if they were using a dagger to do P or S damage. It can matter if you are using it as a tool, but it is fairly clear that if you are shaving wood you want to use it as an S weapon, and if you are punching holes you want to use it as a P weapon.

In some very rare instances, it can matter for weapon special abilities.
A Gnome hooked hammer is B or P.
The Keen special ability of a + 1 Keen Gnome hooked hammer will work only when used as a P weapon.

It is a limitation that will come into effect extremely rarely.


not to mention that "you can simply choose the damage type as suits the DR" is only right IF you know what the DR is.my players know fully well what happens if they mix player knowledge with character knowledge. the fact the player know that a skeleton has dr/blunt or something doesn't mean the character know (until she learns that is).

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:
not to mention that "you can simply choose the damage type as suits the DR" is only right IF you know what the DR is.my players know fully well what happens if they mix player knowledge with character knowledge. the fact the player know that a skeleton has dr/blunt or something doesn't mean the character know (until she learns that is).

The function of P weapons is to penetrate the opponent's flesh and damage arteries and vital organs, and the function of B weapons is to break bones or exoskeletons.

I would be very perplexed in seeing a person trying to use a needle instead of fly swatter to kill a fly and so, I think that any adventurer that knows how to use weapons will not try to use a rapier on skeletons or other similar creatures. But that is only if the DR can be something clearly guessable, and that is relatively rare.


that's nitpicking and you know that!

what you talk about is how knowledge works.
for starters, the skelly was an example and it won't need a high knowledge check to find out, there are worse cases.

but yea. if for some reason you have a character who is as smart as an animal or worse even that is not auto knowledge. a toddler won't know stuff an adult know. so while some knowledge might be so low as to be trivial it is still up to what the CHARACTER knows. the case above might as well be something i would auto include in what the character knows but not all enemies are that simple.
that was still a specific case and not the issue itself which again was:

if the character doesn't know what dr the enemy has it must first learn before she can 'simply choose the damage type as suits the DR'

Liberty's Edge

The problem is how the Knowledge skills work.
You need ranks to reply to any question with a DC of 11+.
So, unless someone is a scholar, he doesn't know that some dragons can breathe fire (Red Dragon, base CR 6), but he can know that they can breathe acid, lightning, and cold. It is a bit counter-intuitive to think that the most iconic dragon attack is unknown to the general population.

Same thing with knowing how your weapon works.
If a character uses a Gnome hooked hammer and sees a skeletal figure approaching I have no problem if he says "I start fighting using the blunt end of the weapon." and if he sees a giant ooze approaching he says "I start fighting using the piercing end of the weapon."
He is not operating on game knowledge, he is operating on the knowledge that kind of character has on how his weapon works.
(Several oozes appear as something liquid contained within a membrane, so punching it will seem reasonable.)

It seems punitive to stop the characters from reacting to visual clues because they can't make the Knowledge roll.
Naturally, visual clues can give false information, too.

It is very different when we speak of the more exotic kind of DR, like cold iron, silver, and adamantine.
The weapons exist and are "commonly" sold, so some knowledge is shared, but I suspect that in a world like Golarion, there will be swarms of con men selling silver-plated weapons as silver weapons, normal iron or steel weapons as cold iron, and alloys with an unusual coloration as adamantine, claiming that they will kill anything and whatever with a single touch. That will make "common" knowledge unreliable.


so you agree about needing knowledge for metal\alignment dr but not p\b\s as they should be obvious from observation?

what part of the Rakshasa's outward appearance let you know you need a piercing weapon (beside good which you agree is hidden) for it's dr?

as i said you are nitpicking.
it's ALL depend on what is or is not character knowledge. if they know they know, if they don't they don't, and the 'or' part of the weapon's damage type can come about to make a difference when they don't.

we can argue what should be a part of the character's knowledge, but that depend on the GM and how they run their games. i'v seen gm who won't let players use fire on trolls before 'finding out' that you need it to suppress regen and some who say it's already common knowledge and wave it. i'm not going to start arguing what should be a part of this knowledge pool, as that's up to each GM.

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:

so you agree about needing knowledge for metal\alignment dr but not p\b\s as they should be obvious from observation?

what part of the Rakshasa's outward appearance let you know you need a piercing weapon (beside good which you agree is hidden) for it's dr?

as i said you are nitpicking.
it's ALL depend on what is or is not character knowledge. if they know they know, if they don't they don't, and the 'or' part of the weapon's damage type can come about to make a difference when they don't.

we can argue what should be a part of the character's knowledge, but that depend on the GM and how they run their games. i'v seen gm who won't let players use fire on trolls before 'finding out' that you need it to suppress regen and some who say it's already common knowledge and wave it. i'm not going to start arguing what should be a part of this knowledge pool, as that's up to each GM.

We are not communicating.

I am saying that I see no reason to stop people to use what, from the aspect of the target, seems the more appropriate type of weapon.

Based on the aspect of the target is the key part.

If someone without the appropriate knowledge sees a Rakshasa, its aspect gives no clues to its DR or even if it has it or its type.

Weapons are made to bypass specific kinds of defense and to inflict specific kinds of damage to the target. If there are perceptible clues about the kind of defenses a target has, it is reasonable to use what can bypass that kind of defense, and not use the weapons against which that kind of defense is meant to work.

"You can't use a mace against the skeleton when you generally use a short sword, you don't know that maces are meant to break bones while shortswords are meant to stab hearts and kidneys!" seem ridiculous, especially in a game where rogues can know the weak point of a skeleton at level 1.

Sneak attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

So the rogue knows that the cervical vertebra is a vital spot, but he doesn't know that the best weapon against bare bones is a blunt one. It is not knowledge about the target, it is knowledge about the weapon we use.


AwesomenessDog wrote:

... is there functionally a difference between a weapon that has two damage types and one that has either type? E.g. Is a weapon with "B or P" any different in practice better or worse in any conceivable circumstances than a "B and P" weapon?

...

yes. In the game 'or'(XOR) or 'and', so different logical states. In general "and" is better vs DR qualifiers as no guessing by the attacker is needed, it either works or doesn't.

There's also campaign theme and probable encounter types. So that's practicality for the game you're in. Clearly a PC needs to make some knowledge checks to choose a weapon that's thematically better vs common expected martial challenges.
As the game progresses getting around DR or finding vulnerabilities becomes more common. Later in the game basic enhancement bonuses generally overcome special materials for DRs or folks just have 3-4 weapons from their mid-level adventuring.
Holy becomes a "go to" enhancement as the PCs are usually Good and the opponents Evil.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Yes, but my question is in the fact that (at least if you know) you can simply choose the damage type as suits the DR. That combined with I guess select oozes winds up making the supposedly better (according to the custom weapon rules) "and" option actually worse than the or.

if your character knows what DR he needs then he can choose that damage type yes. make your knowledge checks or have a party member let you know what to do.


In the vast majority of encounters there is no functional difference… since most of the time physical damage types are quite frankly irrelevant… when they do matter though which one is better depends on the reason that they matter… when it comes to DR ‘and’ weapons are the superior choice since there is no guess work involved, but once the DR is known the advantage of the ‘and’ weapon is lost… there are some creatures and spell effects that interact with specific damage types. Oozes for example can have an ability that cause them to split when harmed with slashing damage, hitting them with an ‘and’ weapon that deals slashing will trigger that ability, while an ‘or’ can be used to avoid dealing slashing damage… the Caustic Blood spell causes its subject to spray acid on their attacker when injured with piercing or slashing damage, which gives another advantage to ‘or’ weapons… damage type based weapon special abilities are disabled when not dealing their damage type, which is an advantage for ‘and’ weapons.

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