gustavo iglesias's page

Will look into Hell's Vengeance if I can. EDIT: any advice about which book should I buy to look into?

I'm not sure I agree with the description of Geb being more Lawful than Evil. While it's true that there are rules about how the Dead can interact with the Quick, that's just because there is an even lower level caste, the Chattel. Ghouls, vampires and wraiths don't feed on the Quick because they have literal farms where they raise people as food. Which in my book is pretty squarely into the Evil part of Lawful Evil.

Hello everyone!.

I'm finnishing book 3 of the campaign, and we have had a blast. One of the most fun APs we have played recently.

But I also think the AP needs some changes to work better as what it says in the can, a book about Outlaws in Alkenstar. So here is the list of things I changed in the plot. Obviously, there's spoilers ahead. So tread carefully.

The AP has two glaring problems, in my opinion. One is that it betrays its theme early. It's supposed to be a campaign about outlaws looking for revenge against a Robber Baron, but it's instead a pretty regular Agents of the Kingdom campaign to save the bacon of the local goverment. It also has some issues with book 2 being disconnected from the plot, and some Deux Ex Machina moments.

So this is what I changed. Keep in mind that some of these were in reaction to things my players did or propose, so be ready to change things on the fly when you need.

1) The players are part of, or get recruited by, a gang of outlaws, the Barrell and the Bullet gang. Phoebe, her brother, the goblin barman, and Wayselm, the orc-tiefling bounty hunter, plus Gattlebee, are the rest of the gang. In my group, some of the members of the gang were always present in each mission, because we are an undersized group. I would suggest to make them as active as possible, as this helps the feeling of being part of a gang. We used them in rotation, just like in Red Dead Redemption 2: some members helped in one mission, some others in a different mission. This also helps to round the party, as you can add whatever is the best NPC for that particular round. Gattlebee will be very useful in Gunworks, while Phoebe will probably be better in infiltration or social missions. (I made a mastermind rogue, bomber alchemist, bard with alchemist dedication, a ranger, and a brawler/grappler based monk for Forrester).

2) Phoebe doesn't need to be a double agent from Alkenstar. Make her a mastermind, with a grudge against Loveless or Mugland. She can help to guide/railroad the characters into wanting to go to the places you need them to go, without needing to give a direct order. Be sure to make her promise a greater hit whenever the players feel they don't know what to do. "One more hit, and we all go to Tahiti".

3) Make the players actually plan and rob things. The bank in book 1, but also the speak easy in book 2 or the Gearsmoke in book 3 are great examples of things the party should want to steal. But the airship in book 2 and a stage coach in book 3 are also good targets. Make the party to believe they can become rich if they steal those. Not just because the plans for the pyronite might be there, but because there is real money there. Maybe reduce the money overall in the rest of those chapters, and put all that treasure in the safe boxes, so they get the money when they rob it!.

4) this is what I changed of the plot, to make book 2 feel more in contact with the rest of the adventure:

4.1) Kosowana found ancient books in his temple, about the 13th ordinal heresy. He reads them, and find they speak about future technology, things that do not exist in current time. That's because they were written by people who could astually read the future. Kosowana shared some info to Shoma Lizerius, but cut the cooperation and started to work with the more talented Gattlebee instead. Kosowana is more of an inventor than he is an alchemist, so he wanted some help trying to figure out what to do.

4,2) Lizerius tried to get the book from Gattlebee, and in order to do so, he hired the Powderkeg punks, and Gah'Tesh, an agash div that, unkown to him, was part of Nalyir Jemeki minions. Nalyir himself works for Ambrose, and this is how Ambrose got in contact with the formula.

4.3) Gattlebee learnt how to use the pyronite, and made some concept art and some blueprints of it, but wasn't fully ready to build stable pyronite. So the gang tried to rob the blue print in the University demonstration (which was Kosowana's demonstration). It didn't work as planned, because pyronite blew off half of the university.

4.4) Mr Fly can be tied in the Airship with Parsus, making Mr Fly an active player in the search of the Cradle of Quartz. Being a Mi-go, he can have some information about Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, time-related artifacts, and so on. Parsus' Cranium Preserver can be a necromantic upgrade from Mr Fly's Brain in a Jar (which I gave him instead of the smogger).

4.5) I added more gnolls, and made Palzu a connection between Ambrose, the gnolls in the goblin warren in book 1, and the Gilded Gunners (as his picture has a golden gun). I also changed Jax's background, to make him part of Phoebe's gang, a member who died when they were betrayed by Ambrose. I also softened up the very difficult Tindalos Hound fight, by making the Sphynx not hostile to the players (they were carrying Pup up), and then making an entrance with Pup up riding the Sphynx to help. Keep in mind than even with this help, that fight was tough. Be careful with it or you will risk a TPK.

4.6) Make the players rob the speakeasy, instead of defending it. You can make Vivielle a foe of Ambrose, or her friend, depending on how your party vibes (I make her an ex-lover). I also used the Gilded Gunners to make a Tombstone style duel, instead of yet-another-dungeon. My gunslinger player killed Ambrose in single duel, which I played as a victory point minigame (rolling perception, intimidation, deception, thievery, reflex, will and attack, and making each success add a +1d10 deadly trait to the duel, plus additional benefits like Off Guard, Demoralize, and so on).

5) By the time the players hit book 3, they are already starting to see that they might have bitten to much. Start pressuring them with Shieldmarshals and such. I also gave them some prophetic views in the Cradle of Quartz, including a nuclear-like mushroom explosion, as well as some very destructive war machines (like airplanes and such) that aren't useful to a band of outlaws, and could spell the end of the world if left unchecked. This is when the outlaws should start thinking about the Redemption part of Red Dead Redemption, as there will be nothing to rob if the world ends.

6) let them get some info about Parsus, and Ibrium. I let the players meet Parsus in the Steaming Kingdom, and Ibrium in Tombend's party.

7) let Thricia meet them in the party, or give the party some hint to meet her, and exchange their amnesty.

8) By the way, I made the headhunter dullahan variants to be sent by Parsus to hunt the players, and in particular Gattlebee, then sent the Smog Wraith again, to lure the party to the hydropower plant. Otherwise, the natural path after Gunworks would be going after the Gearsmoke, imo. In my game, Parsus and Ibrium were rivals trying to pick the blueprint for their own nation, and weren't working together. Ibrium had the better offer (as he has prettymuch a bottomless chest of gold), but Parsus was trying to make it up by stealing the formula from the brain of engineers. Killing someone the players were fine with and knew about the formula is a great effect. In my game, Kosowana.

That's it. We still have a couple of fights to go, but most of what's left will be played just like in the book.

Maybe this will help some people as inspiration to their own changes, so they can avoid some of the pitfalls this otherwise marvelous AP has.

Hi everyone!

I'm planning to start GMing this campaign as soon as we finnish Outlaws of Alkenstar.

I was tempted to run it because it looks like a nice change of pace. We recently played Strength of Thousands, which was awesome, and we were looking for a totally different approach.

However, I think the campaign betrays its theme pretty early on. I understand why (a full undead or full evil campaign is a risk, from a business point of view), but as one of the potential customers of the original premise, I can't help but feel that it's a missed opportunity.

So I was wondering what I could do to tweak it. I'm spitballing here, with the hope that someone who already played could add things to the brainstorm and I could find what changes I should do.

Main concerns with the AP as it currently is:

1- the undead / negative healing problem. As mentioned by a lot of people, the AP simply doesn't work without a change to Void damage. About one third of the enemies do void damage, and the PC are pretty much inmune to it, either because they got a Undead ancestry/archetype, or because of the book 2 ritual. That's too much. It's fine if a character gets a moment of spotlight because of the ancestry they picked, but the whole party being 100% immune to a boss is just a climax killer. My proposed solution to that is that Void damage is versatile Cold, and Vitality damage is versatile Fire. Currently thinking to reduce the die size by one (so 6d8 void would become 6d6 cold, and 3d6 vitality would be 3d4 fire).

2- book 3 is too disconnected. It's something in a different place, in which the evil, proud wannabe bloodlords work as henchmen of a totally foreign agent trying to mediate or convince two factions from a rival nation, so they can later fight that foreign agent to get the info they need. I don't think this book has much to salvage, personally. It's not that the encounters are bad, it's that it doesn't feel like part of the AP. Maybe replacing the two Holomog factions with two Geb factions (with totally different motivations) would make it feel more Geb related.

3- Reputation is useless for about 5/6ths of the game. There's so much reputation to gain and so much bookeeping to do, with so many different major and minor factions... only to matter a small bit in book 6, and maybe 2 or 3 things in book 4. I have seen some ideas floating around in the web, normally using systems inspired by Pathfinder Society faction reputation reward system. Maybe something like that would be cool. "Spending" reputation to roll or reroll social interactions could be worth it too.

4- Too little player agency. I'm not particularly fond of sandboxes, I think railroaded stories ussually work better (having a blast in Outlast, although I also changed things there). But in a campagin which has this premise of being a manipulative undead aristocrat, scheming to increase your influence, just being everybody's waterboy and do go-and-fetch quests feel against the theme. There should be something for the players to do by themselves. An organization to build, a faction to run, a Game of Thrones to play... something that makes them wanting to plot against the BBEG, besides being told to. Maybe tying with point 3, some way to spend reputation to increase player agency. Some political positions to hold, which gives you benefits, but cost a reputation unkeep (so you need to keep grinding reputation with factions in order to stay relevant).

5- The BBEG is simultanously too early and too late. I think Chancellor Kemnebi reveals too soon, and appears too late. The players know for a fact who is the bad guy as soon as book 3. But Kemnebi doesn't appears until book 6. I think this should be reversed, somehow. Kemnebi should be present from the start. Maybe it's him who send the players to Gravedirge, trying to undermine Berline's control of the farms with fresh, newbie recruits that have little experience. Or maybe he isn't aware of Graveclaw's conspiracy, and discovers it later, through Iron Taviah when he raise her. But I think the revelation that a powerful, maybe friendly Bloodlord is betraying them and/or Geb should be a bigger gotcha moment, and also the players shouldn't have a clear understanding of WHO is the evil hand moving the strings.

6- Player Characters should be evil, and do evil things. Again, I understand why doing unspeakable horrors isn't for everyone, and why Paizo had to soften the theme to make a product that would sell better. But my group won't have a problem with this, we loved the PF1E 3pp Way of the Wicked, and we will have no problems with an evil, undead tone here. So I think some evil, gross things need to happen in the adventure. Maybe add some human farms in Gravedirge, not just produce. Maybe some explicit cannibalism in Ghouls Hunger. Maybe human sacrifices needed to achieve certain levels of reputation, or some dark pact required to pass some milestones. Obviously this shouldn't mean the players can betray each other, and shouldn't mean they plan to betray Geb or otherwise seed chaos into the kingdom. The theme of the campaign is Lawful Evil, to borrow the old alignment designation. It's not "let's have fun burning people", but "the room is cold, some people need to burn to warm us all. We live in a society".

So, there you go. Anyone has any idea about how to improve or change any of these? Anyone that has already developed something similar for their own game?

In Mwangi Expanse for example orcs aren't Chaotic Evil (not that it matters anymore, alignment is gone) and they don't worship Rovavug. They actually hunt demons.

So there's nothing that makes orcs genetically evil. Some might be, some others might not. Just like nothing stops a halfling, elf or gnome to be a psychopath murderer, nothing stops an orc to be an honorable wise man. I actually like this depiction of orcs more. Blame world of warcraft for it.

Edit: deleted the quote of the baiting post when I saw the moderation.

So, the same way you are going to increase the price due to rising "economic factor"; if that factor goes down in the future, you will reduce the prices too... right?

I don't think labor cost for example will be reduced in the future. Wages (like most other prices) tend to go up over time due to inflation.

The justification for psychic two-slot casting was that stripping down to two slots per level was what freed up the build resources for all of the other cool stuff they got.

...but we're not here to talk about that.

What about Cloud Storage? Like, sneak a 4th-level mystic into a treasure room, and they can transport the contents halfway around the world if they have a friend there to pull it back out again. Opens up all sorts of potential shenanigans.

It's also interesting to see "slightly weaker heal" as a focus spell.

other interesting thing - the base pool size scales pretty well... but the recharge doesn't. At lower levels, you can be busting those clutch heals out of the pool on the regular, but as you advance, you have to fit other bits of kit into the space that opens up. It'll always be useful, but as the levels pass it shifts more and more from a "per turn" resource to a "per fight" resource.

Some of the spells seem weirdly weak, though. Like... recharge weapon. It has to be touch range, it only refills enough for a single attack, and it inherently limits itself to the cheap stuff. Feels like most of the time, you'd be better off just taking the time to reload manually. Still, I guess it is a cantrip. Might be useful if you somehow have a gun whose recharge actions per shots-in-clip ratio is greater than 1 to 1?

Situational spells like Cloud Storage are better for prepared casters than spontaneous ones, I think.

Transporting a treasure can be a fun shenanigan to do, but investing a permanent resource on it is less appealing then memorizing a spell once for that particular day.

I like Soldier more than any of the proposed alternatives, FWIW

Not sure how important is going to be in the remaster if Torag is good or not, as he is not going to be Good. Alignment is out, so there's no more a need to clearly identify a God with a particular moral. Torag can be mostly fine with some anger problems, or whatever, without needing to fill a particular alignment niche because the PC mechanic rely on it

A bit of necromancy here, but it is a magic school after all.

I think a non caster might work, if the player and GM work for it. But a character that actively hate magic, does not.
Kind of like you might go to Bloodlords campaign and play a character that doesn't dabble in necromancy, or a character in outlaws of Alkenstar that doesn't use technology or guns, or a character without any sailing skill in Skull and Shackles, but it doesn't work for a character that hates necromancy and hunts undead or a character that hates technology and never goes near it or a character that fears the sea and refuse to go in a ship.

If the problem for said player is that they don't like spells, and has nothing to do with wanting to go against the AP for the sake of going against it, that has a very easy solution. Pick a non caster class, like a fighter. Take druid or Wizard dedication feat, and pick only the feats that don't enhance caster levels. The player will have a single cantrip. Pick detect magic or light or guidance or whatever non combat cantrip they want, and don't use it, ever.

That way he can safely ignore the part that he supposedly don't like (spells), without being a nuisance for everyone else.

There are several instances in the AP where characters are supposed to willingly accept magic. Zuma's request to practice magic tattoo rituals, as an example.

My group is about to fight Reth and his gang. I just wanted to make sure I was reading his entry correct.

His damage with xbow is 1d6+2 plus 3d8 precision damage.

The Deadly Bolts stance says he deals an additional 3d8 damage.

So am I reading this right in that while in the stance Reth does 6d8 precision damage with his xbow?

Thanks in advance

I think it is 1d6+3d8 total. That's how I read it

Hi!

I am running this campaign as a GM, with 2 players, using the dual class option and making them 1 level higher than the normal milestones and we are having a blast, we are in the middle of book 2.

But I feel my players will not like the idea of fully ignoring the egg, while they go around doing unrelated archeology and diplomacy. I think books 2 to 5 are great episodes, but they are episodes, with self contained stories and little connective tissue.

Here is my idea. Suggestions are welcome.

Salithiss thinks the egg is a serpent one because a halfling named Thiarvo tried to sell it to him, claiming that. He finally sold it to Koride, who paid more. That's how the Serpent Folks know the egg is in Magaambya. Thiarvo got that egg in Bloodsalt, and he doesn't really know what it is.

Once the players get to Bloodsalt, they discover Kiutu was destroyed by some insects, including giant beetles and swarms of locusts (I want the insect theme running for at least a bit longer). It needs more repairs. They go to clear Bloodsalt, meet with Thiarvo, who is obviously a lier, cheater, and scoundrel, but not a murderer. They talk about Bloodsalt, and if/when the players defeat him in a social encounter, he finally leaves, telling them he is trying to find the mythical Golden City, which is a much better target anyways. He hints that he might know a place in Mzali with a clue, boasting about that.

The players enter in Bloodsalt, they discover Ixame and the Petrified Eggs. Ixame half-dead status is caused by something else: he is half devoured by a Hellwasp Swarm (when he exhales his final breath, instead of doing breath weapon damage, he frees the wasps). The AP says that King of biting Ants created the Vesicant Egg through his will, that he hid in a small ant, and then he gathered more ants. It doesn't say how exactly the egg was created. Here is my take: the Flying people of Bloodsalt weren't dragon men. The billowing wings they developed were butterfly wings, they believed in Desna (which gives a connection to one of my players, a cleric of Shimye-Magalla, and Ixume was their protectors. The will of King of Biting Ants came to Bloodsalt, infected one of the eggs, and attracted insects. The insects weren't normal, and a Swarm of Wasps took him while he was sleep (mechanically, Hellwasps). Then the Dead Man's Breath came and everyone who couldn't flee, died.

The Knights of Abendego are members of a defected Chelaxian warship going rogue after Vidrin got their defense, The Lord of Flies. This can lead to interesting tension with Ignaci Cantarells, who is Chelaxian, but innocent, and how the players deal with the negative reception Ignaci has in Jula. The Knights are followers of Baalzebub, and they summon, control and worship some Lovaloch devils, so they wear tridents because of that. Lovaloch and Hellwasps (and Accursed Devils,) also fit the theme of insects, and even if they aren't exactly under control of the Vesicant Eye, they "feel" it. They aren't there because if it, though, they are looking to sacrifice people to get information about something different: the location of Osibu, the Golden City, something that ambitious people like the followers of The Lord of Flies should be naturally attracted to, just because it is made of gold, or that says the myth.

The players defeat Abjal and the crew that landed on Jula, but the Lord of Flies leave the coast to not be seen again, for now.

After that, the PC have a clue leading to Mzali, but not a connection between Mzali (or Osibu). But that's ok. Here is where Koride, Janatimo and Oyembe decide that Koride will hide the egg within the Iobane temple. They might already know a bit about the egg, and the connection to Jatembe and King of Biting Ants, so it makes sense that the Iobane, a cult dedicated to keep the Red Door closed, can help to keep it safe, as the egg can't be destroyed anyways.

So the Magaambya rulers send a delegation, with the idea of securing a seal to be able to study the Temple, not an easy task. There are other delegations there, including one from the Áspid Consortium, who want to secure a better deal than the Anthusis Traveler Merchant Guild. In order to do so, they are giving one of the ambitious Council rulers money, information, and power: Worknesh. Themba Sufu suspects this, but he can't prove it. It is Worknesh who sent the Reborns. Thiarvo is also there. He helps the players when he can, but he is also a nuisance, breaking rules, and being always very close to make Walkena cross the line and kill everyone. Thiarvo help is invaluable, though: he has half of the Golden plate that works as a map to Osibu. He will memorize it when the players put both halves together, and then he sells the info to the best bettor: the Aspid Consortium.

Who will present themselves in Osibu, with a brigade of Knights of Abendego, a bunch of Steam Tanks (replacing the Sun Spires), Worknesh, and some Sun Warriors loyal to him. Worknesh, with the help of the Consortium, entered the Temple of Eclipse after the PC leave it, and touching a sun mote there, becomes an Avatar of the Sun, with the stats of the Avatar of Walkena.

Once the PC beat him, they learn about Jatembe, Akiton, etc.
Book 5 plays as is, with one minor change: Koride entered the Cathedral of Nothingness with the Egg, believing that only there it could be contained, and the Iobane are furious about that, as they have a vow to never enter that place.
The rest of book 5 and 6 goes unchanged.

I find problematic that so many weapons are underwhelming compare with others.

Un some situations, like Frailty line compared to Ice Carbines, for example, you could argue that the trap option (frailty, in this case) have some kind of redeeming value in a niche situation that somehow excuses it for being much worse 90% of the time while being more expensive. That's the typical defense for the crappy Ivory Tower Design philosophy.

But some examples discredit that idea. Take a look at Stacatto Rifle, Surge, compared to Sonic Rifle, HFD.

Both are sonic weapons. Both do 2d10, have same battery and spend same charges to shoot. Both have deafen as crit. The stacatto, however, is automatic, and have 10 more feet in range. It is also cheaper, and requires one level less.

The sonic rifle is there just to punish Timmy for bring Timmy, and reward Spike for being Spike. It is not even a trap option, trap options "look" good, and thus deceive people with less system mastery. It is just a worse option.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

Locotomo wrote:

Yes, why don‘t you take 30 mins of your time and update your core rulebook pdf, especially starship combat dc‘s?

That would be awesome, thank you very much

Don't think that's done in 30m

I'm a graphic designer and so have some idea of the process it would require. If given access to their systems, I could have it done in 5. The only thing holding it back is company policy.

I don't work in anything related, so this is just a guess, but si suspect any change to the text, including errata, would need to pass an edition process to avoid further errata. I'm not saying it is impossible, or even difficult, but I don't think it is just a 30m thing

- converting weapon mounts from one step to another; ok, technically speaking, you already can. However, I'd like a rule to converting two LIGHT mounts into ONE heavy mounts, essentially allowing smaller ships to get stronger weapons, such as a Fighter-class ship getting heavy weapons.

they can now, don't they?

Yes, why don‘t you take 30 mins of your time and update your core rulebook pdf, especially starship combat dc‘s?

That would be awesome, thank you very much

Don't think that's done in 30m

I also thought about CON. It will fill all the grid of resolve/ability pairings (if you leave Wisdom for Mystics), but finally I thought simmetry is less important than fit, and WIS sound better in my mind.

However, I'm in doubt yet. I've seen a few player created solarians who weren't "jedi-like" in approach (balanced, wise, etc). A gladiator with cosmic powers isn't Obiwan. Con might help to open the solarian theme a bit, and also make them tankier, which is a concern with a class that has lowish DEX and light armor by default. CON fits well with graviton builds too.

I might think about it.

you are right, the group soldier had shot on the run tho, I mixed things probably

I don't think starship combat is necesary for the game system. It's necesary for the story and game mood of an space opera sci fi game, but for a game based on post-apocalyptic earth, and specifically in Fallout, I'd rather cut the starship combat.

A starship/starship combat book. By far the most needed one.

Its less of an issue that after 5 its fine but more of a matter that the players i have will probably not want to play a character as MAD as that, especially if its because of a stat like Charisma.
Appealing to my player base may be bad, but when its spread out like that, its good for one thing and one thing only, Beat Stick

It's true.

It really helps them with Will save only, it's not that much. I don't think the base class is inviable at all.

In any case, we had a brief blitzlarian for a few levels in Dead Suns, and we started the other day a starfinder version of Skull Serpent (but in space!) which will develop into Skull and Shackles (but in space!), and there's a full solarian there. I think he'll be more than viable, let's see.

So you're envisioning that light armor that normally covers 40% of your body expands outward to completely (visibly) surround you when you activate your environmental protections, with no change, positive or negative, in how it protects you when it's not fully surrounding you?

No.

I'm saying that there is no need to make force fields mandatory in order to use cyberware, or anything else.

Take for example the picture of Freebooter armor 1, in page 200 of the CRB. That armor has gaps, and obviously have force fields that fill the gaps to allow enviromental protection, as per the game suggestion. That's fine. Do you want to use a hidden implanted semiauto piston in your forearm? No problem, the force field allows you to do that.

Now look at the Graphite Carbon skin right next to it. It covers forearms. Clearly. Why on hell should a player be penalized because they got Carbon Skin as armor, and the picture of it covers the forearms?

Look at Kalo Encounter Suit in page 71. Why should you be penalized for use that armor, instead of, say, the Squad Defiance Serie in page 200 of the CRB? Both are heavy armor. They have their own set of armor check penalties, movement restriction, and bonuses to AC, KAC, and max Dex. The picture of it should not be an aditional and arbitrary restriction (or bonus)

No. You can say that the solid, hard parts of your armor are made of nanotechnology, and thus can "be alive" and move.

Or, you know, just move. Like ironman

The haste spell is making our parties ridiculously mobile. Even the mystic after casting the spell is running around the board full attacking people in the face

I agree.

Soon after that, they thought it was pretty OP. The ability to move, shoot and move, or move and full attack, or move ridiculous amount of distance, make it a huge tactical adventage. Huge.

It's much better to fit 19 grenade arrows.
Arrows are really long, but they are thin, so probably will not fill more than 1 cubic feet, even if they don't fit in a cube of 1 foot per side.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Most PCs will want to flavor their armor as having a significant component of force fields so that they can use augmentations and gear (like gloves) that need to penetrate the armor to effect targets.

I don't see the point.

If your GM is a forgiving GM, he'll let you to use gloves above the armor or substitute the armor with the gloves. If he is confrontational, he can pretty much rule that the force field forbids you to touch people with the glove, because the force field is above it.

I don't think it's a good precedent to rule out some armors just because they DO have a picture in the book (or a description) and they are not significantly built on force fields, or have force fields in places you don't need (like having force fields in the head, but not in the hands, and thus banning you from using gloves.)

If you're wearing a hard shell armor and you have a weaponized prosthesis, how do you shoot through the armor encasing your arm?

If you have a bone blade necrograft in your arm, how can you extend it if your armor is in the way?

If you have a shockfist biotech augmenation, how can you touch people and use it if your armor necessarily includes physical gloves?

If you have an optical laser, can you use it if you've been portraying your armor as including a polarized face shield?

Marc Silvestry was once asked how his comic book character Stryker, who had 3 cyberarms, all of them in the right side, could keep balance.

His answer was "because it's a comic book".

I still don't see any "necesity" to transform everything in force fields, or to punish certain armors just because we do have a picture of them somewhere in the rulebook.

In any case, if you really need some kind of explanation, Ironman's armor is a pretty good example of how a hardened armor can open itself to allow inner weaponry to shoot. Including, but not limited to, an artifact in Tony Stark's chest, and micromissiles that are hidden in the armor's arm, but that could be just as easily hidden in tony's arm because the hardened armor react and move itself to allow it to get out.

And that's before we even talk about nanotechnology.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

I don't think it's a good precedent to rule out some armors just because they DO have a picture in the book

Why not? Paizo invented an entirely new unwritten mechanic that neutered spellcasters and spellcasting creatures the campaign over for Pathfinder simply because some of their artwork showed floating runes and dancing lights around some of their spellcasters.

If it's good enough for Paizo to ruin games, it's good enough for GMs too, right? :P

Right? :'(

That was different. First, it nerfed spellcasters, which is good. Second, glowing runes are cool. :P

Most PCs will want to flavor their armor as having a significant component of force fields so that they can use augmentations and gear (like gloves) that need to penetrate the armor to effect targets.

I don't see the point.

I don't think it's a good precedent to rule out some armors just because they DO have a picture in the book (or a description) and they are not significantly built on force fields, or have force fields in places you don't need (like having force fields in the head, but not in the hands, and thus banning you from using gloves.)

I cannot stress this enough. I know it's not for everybody, but *my* game experience has become so much better since I adopted this rule.

If you play AP, drop the XP. Forget about them. Give the players a full level whenever they reach the point the AP supposes they level up (it's said in the first few pages).

That way you don't miss XP for not going a certain zone before, and players do not feel forced to do every single room of every single floor of every single dungeon just so they don't miss XP and end being a few hundred XP short of the proper level in a boss fight.

I would make the Gate to malfunction, destroying the pocket dimension and vomiting the Stellar Degenerator back into this reality. Only that now it cannot go back to the pocket dimension, ever.

I increased dramatically the challenge of the starship fight, adding several cruisers, 8 destroyers, and other escort ships, and changing the 2 thaums for 1 dreadnought. It ended pretty well, with the PC defeating the last destroyer with only a few dozens of hull points remaining, right before they entered the point of no return against the Stellar.

About being able to buy things, remember that going back to Absalom adds 1d6 days of travel, or 1d6/2 if they took the really important upgrade for a time sensitive mission of buying drift 2 to their ships. That's not much. It's less than the variance of 5d6 (or 5d6/2) roll to go to the Vast.

I changed "divert" to work as follows:

you gain 5% of PCU as shields, or +2 move, or convert all 1s in the max for that dice (so with 1d4 have 25% of 1s become 4, while in d10 have 10% of 1s becoming 10. It is essentially +1 per die)

HOWEVER, you have to divert the energy from somewhere. If you divert energy from weapons, all die roll that is the max of that dice becomes 1, you move -2, or you lose 5% of your PCU.

I also made a "push" action called Overpower that cost 1 resolve that gives you the equivalent of Divert to all the 3 systems, but then every system is glitching next turn.

Other options I made for engineers, Balance shields is now Engineering action.

I added a bunch of them to other roles too:

Science
Overload Sensors, reduce the attack bonus of a ship for 1 round
Guide Missiles, missiles that miss this turn aren't destroyed. They remain in game until next turn

Gunnery
Harrying fire and covering fire (like in regular game, bonus to hit or cover)

Captain
coordinate: before the turn starts, name a type of action for each role. Actions like that have +2 this turn (for example, "divert power to shields, evasive maneuver, target lock, fire at will!" will give +2 to all that actions in one turn. This makes the captain much more involved (note: he has to "guess" what's going to be needed before even the intiative roll happens), and also makes for interesting roleplaying situations (like if the captain ask for evasive maneuver, but then the pilot does a barrell roll because he thinks it's more appropiate once the enemy ships have moved)

I also changed all the actions, so they don't increase with Tier, but are based on the size and maneuverability of the ship, or other factors, but every 5 DC you get something extra, so all points you spend in skills still matter. For example, "evasive maneuver" is easier for smaller ships, but gives you +1 to AC, plus another +1 every 5DC. Good pilots in fighters are hard to hit. Big dreadnoughts, not that much. Same goes with options for Target System or Lock on, for example. The bonuses they give increase with the roll.

Maybe someone gets inspiration from this, and post back some other options.

thflame wrote:

I disagree. ANYTHING should be an appropriate option for a PC. (Maybe with level adjustment.)

I'm of the opinion that any ancestry which can literally only be a single alignment is inappropriate. Like Pathfinder canonically has more non-CE Succubi than non-CE Drow.

even if we assume that, a few things stand out

1) some people don't play in Golarion. It is easy to change drows background in your home world, but it is harder to build a race mechanically if you are not a game designer. Certainly I easier to pick up Paizo 's vision
.

2) being always evil is not a problem for evil campaigns. Which some people play.

Drow is an inmensily popular race, because of certain guy with 2 scimitar. It is wise to give people popular things

It's a useful debuff spell for NPCs. It's not great for PCs.

WalterGM wrote:

So what if my players don't want to board the Empire of Bones and instead stick to the plan from book 5? Or board the Stellar Degenerator and try and use it to shoot down the Empire of Bones?

I understand that an AP can't account for everything, but a sidebar about these options would have been nice.

All that aside, seems like an epic ending to the story!

Honestly I have a hard time believing that any party will decide on their own to try to board the Empire of Bones. It's such a ludicrous idea that I doubt most groups will even consider it, let alone actually decide to do it without heavy GM intervention. I ran this with my group last week, and they had planned on going through the gate to get to the Stellar Degenerator, which is by far the most reasonable thing to do. Perhaps figure out how to use the weapon to destroy the Empire of Bones, or stick with the original plan and crash it into a star.

Even if they don't want to do that (I told them the Corpse Fleet had managed to get between them and the gate somehow, which already stretched the bounds of believability) then why would they think it's safe for them to try to board the capital ship? And if they do, why would they believe that the five of them could even pilot a ship larger than Absalom Station?

In the end, I had to railroad them into boarding the Empire of Bones. They hadn't even mentioned it as a possibility, and I told them that's where the adventure wanted them to go. It was awkward and very disappointing.

This is exactly why I gave them the message from Eskola, telling them through some magic necromantic transmitter in their necrografts, that she is inside the Empire of Bones and Nor has a plan. Now it boils down to if they trust Nor (might or might not be true in your game), but at least they feel now "we go into EoB because someone has a plan" instead of "let's go there, and see what happens".

However I also made it clear that they had the option to go to the Stellar Degenerator or the Empire of Bones. With Starfinder's great Graft system for monster's, it's pretty easy to transform the infiltration in the Empire of Bones into an infiltration inside the Degenerator. You can still have pretty much the same encounters, just change the marines with some automated robotic defenses, and little bit of re-skinning with the bosses into some type of outsiders, or artificial intelligences with physical bodies, or such, it can be done. Even undeads might work, if you make them kishalee undead trapped inside the degenerator ages ago. Add the possibility to hack the system with a virus that work like Wraith if your PC pass a Computer check. You can still have robotic drones that work like crw if they control cybercore and the bridge, you can still have a grav train chase, etc. Then re-skin the necromantic stuff (like the rune-worm and other things) into something more akin to kishalee, and you are done.

Don't know if this will help you (like, are you talking about organized play?). But a way to work around this, is ruling that if you put a 20charge battery in a diasporan rifle, it wastes 10 charges, because of some inefficiency in the rifle due to *insert technobabble here* with the Flux Condenser.

I'm trying to make Gevalarsk Nor a manipulative bastard, who do things for his own reasons that, coincidentaly, help the Pact.

Next season, once they talk to Eskola, they'll discover that Nor's plan to crash the Empire of Bones into the Degenerator does not include a way of escape for them. They have been "recruited" for a suicide mission, with the promise to honor their deaths.

We started this today.

I made a few changes, but I want to share one, which might be helpful for other GMs.

Instead of Wraith 2.0 and Tombstone being something introduced by a jelous capitan, I made it be part of Embassador Nor's plan to infiltrate the Corpse Fleet. I made Captain Eskola, the corpse fleet double agent that the PC rescue in he Drift Rock in book 1, to be an officer in the Empire of Bones. Then she contacted them right before the marine assault (in my game, PCs bought necrografts, and I used those to tell them that they had some necromantic technomagic bug that allowed direct 1 way communication from the Empire of bones. But a simple radio call could work too). She told them that Embassador Nor had a plan to defeat the Empire of Bones and avoid the Corpse Fleet to grasp the Stellar Degenerator. And she had infiltrated the Empire of Bones with 2 viruses, Wraith and Tombstone, to help them.

This might or might not work in your campaign, depending on what happen in book 1 to the corpse fleet double agent. But if the PC side with Nor, and Nor trust them, this might be a nice "kaiser soze" moment. My players loved it, because they did not expect it.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

Yes, the survey is more important than the Gen Con.

However, Gen Con (and other conventions) also heps you to know things about the game. If the game plays better than it reads (ie. those who play it are, overall, happier than those who have only read it), it tells you things about the gampleay, but also about the reading. Maybe the way the book its formated, and how it reads, it's not good enough.

Well, if it plays poorly on one play then, yeah, you have a real problem. Clearly we can mark that as passed.

But I think you missed a key part of my point.
People who played it at GenCon learned nothing about how it plays over an 18 month period.

Is it just as good as a growing and evolving RPG as it is a one off?

I did not miss it, and I agree you have a point.

My point is that the Gen Con stuff is still useful to detect things. For example, it can help you to detect that the book is boring as hell and reads like a technical computer manual. That's a problem that needs fixing, and you can detect it because there is a disconect between how the rules read, and how the rules are played.

Then, of course, there are OTHER problems, that might not be discovered by that, and those problems would need other methods to be discovered, and need to be solved independently. But regardless of that, if the Gen Con helped you to identify even just 1 problem, that's useful by itself.

BryonD wrote:

I've seen several comments now about how much "the people at GenCon loved it" or similar. Those comments concern me that they are being taken as more significant to the big picture than they should.

To be fair, the comments on these boards should also not be taken as more significant than they should also.

People who are opinionated and passionately adamant enough to post on forums a lot are not all that representative of the wider player base :).

This is true, and it is true for both people happy and unhappy with it.

Let's be serious, if we count the names that post in the general playtest forum, how many of us there are? A couple hundreds? Maybe one thousand?

If Paizo is only going to sell 1.000 copies of the CRB, they are already drawing dead. The number of people who play (or GM) this game who never came to the forums VASTLY outnumbers those of us who do.

The same is true for people in the gen con, of course. That's why the playtest survay is so important.

I'd say less dunked on and more met with "have you actually *played* the game?"

But then that would not be a post like the OP, because the OP has already played the game.

So someone who got that answer might feel it was unwarranted, or whatever, and he might very well be right, BUT he can't say he was treated with a different reaction under the same circumstances than the OP, when he was not under the same circumstances than the OP.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

However, as someone posted, the fact that there are only 4 spell lists now, helps. You can tag each spell as "primal, arcane, divine, occult", instead of class. That also helps with classes that have multiple spell lists available, like Sorcerer.

Yeah, it really doesn't, unless all new arcane caster classes get the exact same spells. Which limits their design space significantly.

with the caveat that anything can change during the playtest, I'm pretty confident that's the case.

I disagree. Deadmanwalking has a few threads with posts similars to the OP, with concise, concrete points expressed in clear way, both good and bad, and nobody dunked on him.

But I'd gladly change my mind if you link me to a thread with a post like the OP, where the poster was dunked on. If I don't see any melodrama on it, I'd concede the point.

It's funny how it's you that has to bring up the completely ridiculous example, while Castilliano is just using the bulk system as is. And the bulk system as is turns out to be irredeemably bad.

I made the ridiculous example to make the point, but you don't need to be ridicule for encumbrance to be absurd. It is absurd as it is.

The 24 str character in my example has 233 lb of carrying capacity before any encumbrance. That means he could drop his 2 mile long pole, go to Castillano's armory, and pick 116 short swords, without any encumbrance. If he is willing to accept the penalties for heavy encumbrance, he could carry 349 of them.

He could instead loot 70 boarding pikes, or 34 armchairs. or 149 chairs.

The only thing that precludes him to do something absurd like looting 34 armchairs, is GM judgement. Which is the same thing that could preclude him to loot 200 light shields in a bulk system.

I agree the organization in the playtest document is a problem, but I rather see a solution, than implement a non-solution that was proven wrong in the past, only because it was used in the past.

However, as someone posted, the fact that there are only 4 spell lists now, helps. You can tag each spell as "primal, arcane, divine, occult", instead of class. That also helps with classes that have multiple spell lists available, like Sorcerer.

I'm still unsure about the +level to skills, but someone the other day made a good point.

A barbarian who has been fighting dragons for 15 levels, should know a thing or two about them, even if he does not focus on Arcane Lore or whatever is the thing that cover dragon knowledge now. Just because of experience, not focus, learning, or study. He should not be as accurate, or know some obscure parts as someone who studies them, but he should know more than random lvl 1 peasants who have never seen a dragon before, if only because he has an armor made with the skin of one he killed a few levels ago.

You could use this for other fields of expertise, including physical ones. When we are talking about adventurers, "adventuring" is an area where they focus, even if they don't spend points on it.

Excellent feedback. And, funnily enough, much of the same thing most of critical people have been saying for over a week now, but now the people who normally jump on that type of post are falling over themselves praising your criticism. I guess getting the Mona Seal Of Approval so fast kinda blunted their usual modus operandi.

Not really. It's because there is no melodrama in his post, just stated things that happened, point by point, both good and bad. I still disagree with some of his views, but the way he gives his criticism is welcome, if anything, because it's a chage of pace from all the "longbows having volley is less realistic than fireballs" kind of posts.

The praise is not as much for what IS in his post, but for what he left out. No melodrama, and concise points, makes the criticism much better to read.

One issue with Bulk is that if you define Bulk w/ any rigor, then you may as well use weight. If you define Bulk loosely, you get variance on what should be cut & dried situations.
Can I lift him/the grate/the jiggly mcguffin?
That seems a minimal level of continuity for a game system to address. Dragging or carrying an ally is a common event, yet unaddressed. Right now, the "Shove" maneuver is the best way to move them, except awkward due to Fort saves.
My main issue is that awkward discontinuity keep arising, such as when pillaging an armory. The armory raid should be a litmus test for encumbrance systems.
"No, I couldn't lift another longsword."
"Well, take these 9 shortswords instead."
"Ok, sure."
I'd imagine merchants would make hilts detachable because it'd be a lot easier to transport 2 L objects than 1 B. Reassemble upon arrival....

You can ridicule any system you want, if you try to break the boundaries, because no system will ever be as good at simulating reality as reality itself.

For example, I have a character with str 24. How long can be the pole I carry in my backpack? If it's thin enough, can I carry a 2 mile long pole? If so, can I put a knife in one point, and have a 2mile reach? Can I use my 2 mile pole to deliver messages to people in the nearby village? I mean, I can lift that amount of pounds. So, why not? What do you mean with "a GM will rule against that"?

gustavo iglesias wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Arakhor wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Unless the spells are actually organized I wont look any harder (alphabetically and not by level??? wtf)

I know - it's shocking that it's been done that way ever since 3rd Edition debuted. Incredible, isn't it?

At the very least 3.X had tag for each spell which class could cast them.

Weird. I'm looking at my PF1 corebook right now, and I don't see "magus" anyway near the Shield spell.

Weird, I didn't know that Magus could time travel to the release of the CRB and insert themselves into that book. Oh, wait, they can't.

But good to know that you are on the side of terribly organized books.

You missed the point. Tagging classes in the spells is only a solution if you don't plan to release any more classes, ever. Otherwise, you need something else.

Yes, the survey is more important than the Gen Con.

However, Gen Con (and other conventions) also heps you to know things about the game. If the game plays better than it reads (ie. those who play it are, overall, happier than those who have only read it), it tells you things about the gampleay, but also about the reading. Maybe the way the book its formated, and how it reads, it's not good enough.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

I'm going to be happy with PF2 if it meets 2 criteria;

1) I like it as a product, regardless of who else likes it or not

2) It's profitable enough for Paizo to keep it running for the next 10 years and produce awesome APs and great aditional books.

That's the catch...your second criteria depends heavily on the caveat of your first (highlighted in bold). You may not care who else likes it or not, but its profitability will invariably depend upon who else likes it or not...

I know, that was the point.