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Marc Radle wrote:

Remember when the thread was about the math at high levels breaking down?

Nope.

You should have been there man. It was a glorious sight to behold. The question was answered in a single post and that answer was rephrased and repeated a bunch of times. Those were the days man. Wish you'd been there.

I love this image though.

"Lord Asmodeus, you know General Garnath, your old torture buddy?"

"Why yes. We go way back How is the old fiend?"

"Dead sir, Anzyr killed him."

"The old planar binding trick?"

"Yes Lord of Evil."

"Thats the fifth one this year. Oh well, nothing I can do, planar binding is pretty specific. Let bygones be bygones I always say."

So I'm looking for some advice on an encounter idea I have. The party is fairly high level and really well equipped. For months now (both real time and game time), they have been outsmarted by a Succubus. This Succubus has some levels and has been using her natural abilities and spells to really be a pain, but never engage. The highest point was when she played the victim, fooled the cleric, got him to give out some important information, drained a few levels (wink wink, nudge nudge), and then teleported away. In encounters since then, the Cleric and Succubus have had some really good dialogue. (By good, I mean awful 80s sword and sorcery style dialogue. She always calls him "Lover" now. The Cleric is a good sport and great player, and he's sort of adopted the attitude of "So I have this crazy ex who just can't let it go".)

Anyways, they're about to track her down to her lair and they're ready to throw everything they have at her. Now I was thinking of having the big surprise be her "new boyfriend", a charmed or whatever Planetar who fights to protect her. I think it'll be an interesting switch up for a good party that has done a lot of demon hunting.

So I'm looking for some ideas of how I should make that happen. The Angel has just fallen? If so, should I switch everything over, so it's alignment is evil now, it has DR/Good, etc? If so, that doesn't seem too different from the standard evil stuff they fight. Should I make him under some spell? What spell or effect should it be? That seems to work fine until somebody in the party goes "this doesn't seem right, dispell magic" and now my boss fight has gone from a challenge to "well, we have a pissed off Planetar on our side for free now". That'll happen about a round in, maybe 2, considering how smart this party plays.

Just looking for some suggestions or how other people would run this. I'm totally not opposed to just saying "this is a special bad guy, not straight from the bestiary" and having all sorts of weird stats on him.

I do think there's a cognitive problem with this spell that typifies a "fantasy" problem - is magic normal?

If Charm Person is a normal part of life, then people will recognize it more frequently and will have already formed opinions about it. They will have seen it used on friends and loved ones and will likely not consider it a nice thing to do. At a society level there are likely laws dealing with its use, etc.

Where the setting is more like dark ages Europe with magic bolted on, then they might be quick to dismiss it.

In Gorlion, it seems they know what it is when they see it.

Why would anybody really care about charm person, or even laws about it? As the spell is written, it just makes the person friendly with you. It does not enable you to do anything a good diplomacy check or buying the person a drink and making friends with them wouldn't let you do. You can make opposed charisma checks to give someone orders normally. You can make diplomacy checks to make someone like you nonmagically. The spell wouldn't work on somebody who already considers you a friend, because then it would be redundant.

All the spell does is skip the time and effort needed to make a friend. But as soon as you abuse that friendship, the spell ends.

I like to break it down by the AC modifiers.

Let's make it really easy. The target has a AC 25, from 10 (normal ac) + 5 dex mod + 5 Armor + 3 shield and +2 ring of protection.

So, when describing what you hit, look at what they rolled. You need a minimum of 10 to have a chance of hitting, so if you hit under a 10, "You swing wildly and miss completely."

Next up is dodge, so if you hit a 10-14 "You swing and he deftly steps aside, causing you to miss."

Then, there's shield, in the 15-17 range "You swing and he isn't able to dodge out of the way, but knocks your blow aside with his shield"

I do magic next, though that could be where ever. So they hit a 18-19 "You swing, he tries to block with his shield, but you avoid it. However, you glance off of a the air around his body" (If they are higher level, I just say "magical protection" because by the time a fighter is 4th level or higher, he should have experienced that and know what it looks like).

Then armor, at 20-24. "Your blow connects, but his chainmail is tough and absorbs the damage."

At 25 or higher "You hit cleanly and feel your weapon dig into flesh. Your opponent grimaces in pain."

For a critical "You catch him in the neck/head/vitals and plunge the weapon in deep." Then you can add some variation for feats. Bleeding crit? "You sever an artery and see blood continue to flow from the wound at an alarming rate" Etc. Same for a sneak attack.

I just believe the numbers should reflect what's going on. People tend to associate 1 "Standard Action" with just doing one thing, but it has to be more than that. 6 seconds is a long time, especially in combat. People are moving in their 5 foot square, lining up distance, setting up shots and feints. Think, realistically, how much a person has to do in a grapple check. Move in, grab the guy, move to get himself in a superior position, and hold on. Combat is very dynamic and should be described as such. A single roll in Pathfinder can represent a whole sequence of actions. Don't be afraid to describe what makes sense, even if it's not what happened mechanically. A guy is going to bullrush with his shield, even if he's not shield bashing. It's how it looks.

Then, from there, let the dice guide your description. For instance, a character is fighting a big guy with a warhammer, who swings and misses, Describe it as something like "the brute swings his warhammer at you, putting all of his weight into the mighty blow. You leap back, out of the way at the last second." Then, when the PC attacks back, describe it from that place. If the PC misses "You're so rattled by the orge's strong attack barely missing, that you hesitate and your counter attack misses." If the PC hits: "Thrown off balance by his mighty blow, the brute leaves himself exposed, and you jump at the opportunity, slashing into his now exposed head." If the PC crits: "The Brute practically trips in the follow through of his swing, exposing his armpit for just a second. But a second is all you need, as you plunge your rapier deep into his chest, causing massive damage and the orge to scream in pain."

What's great about this method is you'll find the dice cooperate. I can't explain it, but when somebody rolls a 1, the person attacking them usually does quite well. If a person criticals, their opponent usually has an off round. Maybe it's just confirmation bias, but it makes for exciting combat.

I think you all are being too literal and rigid as GMs. I like to think of a lot of spells not as big showy things, but simply ways of going beyond what is normal.

In my games, when the bard casts charm person, he doesn't stand in front of them, go "Abracadabra, now you like me." What he does is act charming, and the spell increases his effectiveness. For instance, the verbal component is as simple as a "hey, how are you" and the somatic component is a handshake. Unless there are surrounding people who are skilled in spell casting, they just think he's a charming dude.

So a typical usage would go like this. The town doesn't allow people to carry swords, for instance. As the party walks into town, a guard walks up and says "we're going to have to confiscate your weapons. They will be returned to you when you leave." The guard seems stern and serious. So the bard walks up and says "Hi, how are you" (hand shake) "I'm Lorentius and this are my companions. Look friend, you can trust us to be responsible with our weapons, and we'll even help you out if you need it. This saves you the hassle. What do you say?"

With Charm Person, the guard who would usually be very by the book and opposed to this, now views them as a friend, as per the spell. So instead of throwing this idea right out, he considers it. A decent diplomacy role leads to the party keeping their weapons. An outrageously good one leads to the guard deputizing them.

Hours later, when he's off duty, he has no reason to be less suspicious of them, so why would he hate them now? He probably waves to them. If the party is smart, they buy him a drink and now they have a contact.

The point is, charm person should not be viewed as a hostile act, it's just being super likable. You can't convince somebody to do something suicidal or harmful and you even have a rough time convincing somebody to do something out of the ordinary. It's a roleplay spell, not a hostile act.

I haven't completely caught up, but I do want to weigh in.

1. Don't treat her any differently than you would any other new player. My gaming group is an even split, genderwise, and everyone has fun. I don't cater to the women players anymore than the male ones.

2. Don't GM her first game. Have a friend do it and play with her. But don't be her first GM. You're not impartial. It's so easy for players, especially new ones, to interpret fairness as meanness in a GM. She has every right as a new player to ask for some help, guidance, and to ask the GM for some leeway. And if it were me with some random new player, I'd be nice for a bit until it was time for that new player to pick up the slack. If it's with a girlfriend (or worse yet, a crush that isn't yet your girlfriend) then it's so hard to keep things fair.

I'd have a friend run something that's fun and treat her like any new player.

I'm running a home game that we started back in 3.5, so we're still using those gods. Our Paladin of Pelor is seeking a minor artifact (really just a Lord's Banner Crusades) that she knows is buried with this ancient, powerful Paladin.

The Paladin has guarded the tomb so that evil beings cannot get in and only those powerful enough to be safe with the loot can get to the loot. Essentially, some level 4 party can't get in, and then a few days later get killed by some orcs and now orcs have really nice stuff that they shouldn't have.

Anyway, the basic format. There are 6 statues in the entryway, of the Patron Saint of Vigilance, Valor, Truth, Sacrifice, Mercy, and Perseverance. Each statue has an outstretched hand. The party will enter a "test chamber," and solve a puzzle with one of those themes. At the end, they get an orb and put it in the appropriate statue's hand. So part of the test is identifying what they are being tested on. I'm looking for ideas for tests.

Here's what I have:
Valor - An orb is on top of a tall stone pillar. Around the pillar are monsters that are way too difficult for the party with Fear auras that will only attack you if attacked or you are climbing the pillar, but will not pursue you past a certain point in the floor. The party needs to get the orb, but if they get close, they fail a will save and become panicked. I can see a creative solution (animate rope, something like that) or, the easy solution, where the party goes to one side of the room and attacks, while the Paladin, immune to fear, runs in and grabs it. Or the party can just win an epic level encounter and be fine.

Truth - A court case illusion, where a Solar and a Marilith are both accused of a crime. It's a standard logic puzzle, with witnesses and stuff, but the Solar is guilty and the Marilith is innocent, because servants of Pelor pursue the truth, not outward appearances. I'd like a combat here too.

Perseverance - Several chambers where the lever or key is inside increasingly powerful fields of Positive Energy. Whomever goes after the key has to survive without exploding. Basically, the party needs to beat up a party member and have them walk in. This test is inspired by the scene with the coolant tanks in Sunshine.

Vigilance - They are walking through a crowd and keep getting attacked by a ghost or some invisible, incorporeal thing. They need to defend themselves without endangering or harming the "innocents" (actually just illusions) in the crowd. Any one they injure becomes a wraith and attacks, because servants of Pelor protect the innocent at the cost of pursuing the guilty. They will not give evil room to grow. As they progress, they start becoming more fatigued and disadvantaged, but must maintain a watchful eye. Things like True Seeing stop working. But despite the handicaps, they must be ever watchful.

Mercy and Sacrifice - I need suggestions here. A friend of mine suggested somebody basically has to willing take an Oracle curse for Sacrifice. I'm not sure about setup or if I'm mean enough to do that to a party member.

I'd also like some non-standard combats to mix in. One example is from a few sessions ago, where the Cleric needed to channel through an amulet for 5 rounds and the concentration check stacked every round if he took damage. So the party had to keep things off of him while he did it. The cleric described it as the most stressful combat he's ever been in, so I think it worked (though I know a lot of players would be bored with that). Things like that, that force a difference tactical situation.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.