Efreeti Changes Shape to Moss Troll... Gains Regeneration that Can't Be Disabled.


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So the Efreeti can use its Change Shape SQ to take the form of a giant as Giant Form I.

Giant Form I lets the Efreeti take the shape of a Large size giant, which a Moss Troll is. You gain the trolls regeration 5 (fire), and Vulnerability (fire) but the Efreeti still has immunity to fire, so you can't counteract the regeneration.

Am I reading this wrong, or would any smart Efreeti who knows combat is coming it way just use this ability to become a Moss Troll?


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Depends if this part of the polymorph section:

Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form

would apply, or whether:

Quote:

Change Shape (Su)

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities.

overrides that portion of the polymorph description.

Not sure myself.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

If the Efreeti is effected by the fire, even if never damaged by it, it would negate the regen for the time it is used.

Going by the overall parameters, it is really a coin toss on whether or not the Efreeti loses Immunity to Fire in the form or not.


thaX wrote:

If the Efreeti is effected by the fire, even if never damaged by it, it would negate the regen for the time it is used.

Going by the overall parameters, it is really a coin toss on whether or not the Efreeti loses Immunity to Fire in the form or not.

You need to actually deal damage to stop regeneration. If somebody casts Protection From Elements on a Troll, you need to be able to get past the Elemental Resistance to stop the Regeneration.


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One thing says "keeps most" the other says "here's exactly what you lose".

I think that coin flip may be pretty one sided.

Shadow Lodge

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Mairn wrote:
Am I reading this wrong, or would any smart Efreeti who knows combat is coming it way just use this ability to become a Moss Troll?

No to this part. I'm pretty sure most of them think too highly of themselves to change into anything as base as a troll.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Mairn wrote:
thaX wrote:

If the Efreeti is effected by the fire, even if never damaged by it, it would negate the regen for the time it is used.

Going by the overall parameters, it is really a coin toss on whether or not the Efreeti loses Immunity to Fire in the form or not.

You need to actually deal damage to stop regeneration. If somebody casts Protection From Elements on a Troll, you need to be able to get past the Elemental Resistance to stop the Regeneration.
Regeneration wrote:


Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

where does it say that it needs to damage the creature?


AFAIK you should be able to just coup de grace after you batter the thing down to unconscious as regeneration does not stop insta kills

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So you down the thing, sorcerer burning hands it (for no damage) and the fighter ends it.

Yeah, it is a great loophole for an Efreeti to use, but Fire still stops the Regen for a round, even with no damage.


thaX wrote:

So you down the thing, sorcerer burning hands it (for no damage) and the fighter ends it.

Yeah, it is a great loophole for an Efreeti to use, but Fire still stops the Regen for a round, even with no damage.

You don't even need to stop the regenerate, get it to -6 or whatever and a coup de grace will do it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It can't die until the regen is stopped. Point of the OP. It automatically makes the save if still regening.

It certainly would make it so it would not get up for a while, though.


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Regen doesn't mean you can't win the fight, it just means you can't kill the creature. Nothing stopping you from beating it to some arbitrarily high number like -7200 HP and keeping it from standing back up for 24 hours. You could also just tie it up.

Got the answer I was looking for which is pretty much what I expected: 'who knows. RIA and RAW don't agree'. Will only pull it out if they start steamrolling the encounter.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

Depends if this part of the polymorph section:

Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form

would apply, or whether:

Quote:

Change Shape (Su)

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities.

overrides that portion of the polymorph description.

Not sure myself.

No, it don't override the polymorph description, look the SQ:

PRD wrote:


SQ change shape (humanoid or giant, alter self or giant form I)

It say exactly in what it can change and under what rules. He applies the rules that applies to the cited spells. So the whole polymorph paragraph of the magic chapter.


thaX wrote:


Regeneration wrote:


Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
where does it say that it needs to damage the creature?

In the text you quoted.

The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Damage, of a certain type, is required to stop the regeneration.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Depends if this part of the polymorph section:

Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form

would apply, or whether:

Quote:

Change Shape (Su)

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities.

overrides that portion of the polymorph description.

Not sure myself.

No, it don't override the polymorph description, look the SQ:

PRD wrote:


SQ change shape (humanoid or giant, alter self or giant form I)

It say exactly in what it can change and under what rules. He applies the rules that applies to the cited spells. So the whole polymorph paragraph of the magic chapter.

The specific description of change shape (retains its own qualities) overrides the general rules of polymorph (loses its own qualities). Thats how the rules of Pathfinder work.


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Change Shape wrote:
This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their descriptions.

There is the rest of the ability. It functions as a polymorph spell, but the creature retains its ability scores unless noted otherwise.


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Mairn,

1) There is nothing in the Bestiary that states immunity to an energy type is a quality.

2) There is nothing in the Polymorph description that states lost physical abilities are qualities.

So all you are left with is any Special Qualities or abilities that define themselves as qualities. None of which are Immunity to Fire.

Summary: An Efreeti using Shape Change loses Immunity to Fire because it is not a physical quality but it is a physical ability and physical abilities are lost as per the Polymorph school.

Edit: an example of a physical quality that would be kept: Damage Reduction. This is because Damage Reduction (Bestiary p299) calls itself a quality.

Funny bit: (energy) Resistance (Bestiary p303) calls itself a quality while (energy) Immunity (Bestiary p301) does not.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Mairn wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Depends if this part of the polymorph section:

Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form

would apply, or whether:

Quote:

Change Shape (Su)

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities.

overrides that portion of the polymorph description.

Not sure myself.

No, it don't override the polymorph description, look the SQ:

PRD wrote:


SQ change shape (humanoid or giant, alter self or giant form I)

It say exactly in what it can change and under what rules. He applies the rules that applies to the cited spells. So the whole polymorph paragraph of the magic chapter.

The specific description of change shape (retains its own qualities) overrides the general rules of polymorph (loses its own qualities). Thats how the rules of Pathfinder work.

+

Read the ability description:

PRD wrote:

Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.

Format: change shape (wolf, beast form I); Location: SQ, and in special abilities for creatures with a unique listing.

So: "functions as a polymorph spell ... but the creature does not adjust its ability scores". That is what "retains most of its own physical qualities" mean.


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Gauss wrote:

Mairn,

1) There is nothing in the Bestiary that states immunity to an energy type is a quality.

2) There is nothing in the Polymorph description that states lost physical abilities are qualities.

So all you are left with is any Special Qualities or abilities that define themselves as qualities. None of which are Immunity to Fire.

Summary: An Efreeti using Shape Change loses Immunity to Fire because it is not a physical quality but it is a physical ability and physical abilities are lost as per the Polymorph school.

Edit: an example of a physical quality that would be kept: Damage Reduction. This is because Damage Reduction (Bestiary p299) calls itself a quality.

Funny bit: (energy) Resistance (Bestiary p303) calls itself a quality while (energy) Immunity (Bestiary p301) does not.

The only problem I could see with this is that the fire immunity comes from the Fire subtype it possesses.


And the Fire subtype is also does not list Immunity to fire as a quality. :)

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
bbangerter wrote:
thaX wrote:


Regeneration wrote:


Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
where does it say that it needs to damage the creature?

In the text you quoted.

The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Damage, of a certain type, is required to stop the regeneration.

It says certain attack forms. The type of damage from the forms does not mean you actually need to damage it, just that it is that type of damage that effects it in that way. The English language is funny in that way, Damage means the form to which to effect the creature with in this passage. It doesn't actually say that the creature actually need to take actual damage from it, just that this is what will cause the effect to stop (for a round).


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Quote:
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

I would call the disabling of regeneration a 'secondary effect'.


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thaX wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
thaX wrote:


Regeneration wrote:


Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
where does it say that it needs to damage the creature?

In the text you quoted.

The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Damage, of a certain type, is required to stop the regeneration.

It says certain attack forms. The type of damage from the forms does not mean you actually need to damage it, just that it is that type of damage that effects it in that way. The English language is funny in that way, Damage means the form to which to effect the creature with in this passage. It doesn't actually say that the creature actually need to take actual damage from it, just that this is what will cause the effect to stop (for a round).

So if I attack with a scorching ray, but miss my attack roll, since I attacked with fire damage it still disables a trolls regeneration for a round? Because that is what your reading of the rules imply.

Would you also rule that a troll that falls into lava does not have its regeneration stopped because falling into lava is not an attack?

Its not the attack that matters, its the taking of damage of a certain type that matters.

The English on this is actually very plain - nothing funny about it in this instance.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You would have to hit with the attack, even though it would do no damage

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This is a case of a weird combination of one thing into another, with polymorph, an often confused rules mechanic that does this sort of thing.

Typically, a creature will not be Vunerable to fire and Immune to it at the same time, while losing Regen from fire to boot.

Since this particular instance, it has that possibility, doing fire damage, despite not actually damaging the creature itself, will be enough to stop the regen.

Keep in mind, it is a GM ran situation in most likely scenarios, and he needs some way for the players to defeat/kill this thing the characters are going against. (Mega plot not withstanding)

Fire will kill it, even if it has to be tempered by an axe to the face.


thaX wrote:

This is a case of a weird combination of one thing into another, with polymorph, an often confused rules mechanic that does this sort of thing.

Typically, a creature will not be Vunerable to fire and Immune to it at the same time, while losing Regen from fire to boot.

Since this particular instance, it has that possibility, doing fire damage, despite not actually damaging the creature itself, will be enough to stop the regen.

Keep in mind, it is a GM ran situation in most likely scenarios, and he needs some way for the players to defeat/kill this thing the characters are going against. (Mega plot not withstanding)

Fire will kill it, even if it has to be tempered by an axe to the face.

Um, no, did you miss my quote regarding immunity? Secondary effects, such as turning off regeneration, are not activated if no damage is taken.


thaX wrote:
You would have to hit with the attack, even though it would do no damage

You ignored my second question. I'll ask it again.

Would you also rule that a troll that falls into lava does not have its regeneration stopped because falling into lava is not an attack?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Are you talking a troll, or the creature polymorphed in this way that is the subject of this discussion?

The Troll would take damage, but the Efreeti (Troll) would likely swim in the stuff. Would the fire effect turn off the Regen? Does it matter, since he is not taking damage anyway.

If a Player dumps the unconscious "Troll" into the lava, the GM could look at that as a good qualifier to stop the regen, but the fighter would still need to take him down.

This is a really weird hypothetical, anyways, as the likelyhood that a creature would have these opposing effects and Regen that would stop from the same is nil to impossible.

Call it a GM fiat, if you like, or an application of rules that keeps the failsafe of the Regen intact instead of loopholed out if existence.

Immortality from a rules conflict, jeesh.


thaX wrote:

Are you talking a troll, or the creature polymorphed in this way that is the subject of this discussion?

The Troll would take damage, but the Efreeti (Troll) would likely swim in the stuff. Would the fire effect turn off the Regen? Does it matter, since he is not taking damage anyway.

If a Player dumps the unconscious "Troll" into the lava, the GM could look at that as a good qualifier to stop the regen, but the fighter would still need to take him down.

This is a really weird hypothetical, anyways, as the likelyhood that a creature would have these opposing effects and Regen that would stop from the same is nil to impossible.

Call it a GM fiat, if you like, or an application of rules that keeps the failsafe of the Regen intact instead of loopholed out if existence.

Immortality from a rules conflict, jeesh.

A standard generic troll, or any other creature that has regen/fire. If such a creature is in lava, does its regen stop working or not?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

They take damage from a fire effect. It would be like a swarm, taking the effects and damage without an attack. Yes, it would stop the regen.

I know what your getting at, and Area of Effect spells would be the same as this situation, not having to "Hit" the target.

A fire effect, whether it be damage, attack, Lava or the like, would staunch the Regen effect that is effected by Fire. As a GM, I would use a modicum of expected narrative to have the troll effected as it would normally be, even with some unusual circumstances.


thaX wrote:
Mairn wrote:
thaX wrote:

If the Efreeti is effected by the fire, even if never damaged by it, it would negate the regen for the time it is used.

Going by the overall parameters, it is really a coin toss on whether or not the Efreeti loses Immunity to Fire in the form or not.

You need to actually deal damage to stop regeneration. If somebody casts Protection From Elements on a Troll, you need to be able to get past the Elemental Resistance to stop the Regeneration.
Regeneration wrote:


Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
where does it say that it needs to damage the creature?
Immunity wrote:
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

Secondary effects are not applied if the creature is immune to the attack. i.e. Regeneration is not suppressed.


thaX wrote:

They take damage from a fire effect. It would be like a swarm, taking the effects and damage without an attack. Yes, it would stop the regen.

I know what your getting at, and Area of Effect spells would be the same as this situation, not having to "Hit" the target.

A fire effect, whether it be damage, attack, Lava or the like, would staunch the Regen effect that is effected by Fire. As a GM, I would use a modicum of expected narrative to have the troll effected as it would normally be, even with some unusual circumstances.

Your logic is inconsistent.

thaX wrote:


It says certain attack forms.

Now, is it attack forms, or types of damage? You can't say its one when convenient to support your view point, and the other when you realize that doesn't quite work.

The rules don't say, "When attacked by fire damage OR damaged by fire damage." The rules talk about attacks of a certain type, and go on to clarify and explain what that means - e,g, dealing damage of that type.

Let's narrow this down further though to see where you stand.

A troll has levels in rogue, and thus the evasion class feature. A wizard casts fireball, the troll makes its save and takes no damage from the fireball. Does the trolls regeneration stop working? You might come back and declare fireball a form of attack per the breaking invisibility rolls (but maybe you are one of those that believe sneak attack applies to all spells regardless of whether an actual attack roll was needed or not), so lets add another alternative as well. A trap is designed to dump lava into a room, a reflex save would allow a character to take half damage (or no damage with evasion). Does the trolls regen stop working? (Traps aren't normally attacks, unless they are designed as such, like a thrown spear trap which makes an attack roll against AC).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Evasion would counter the effect.

Listen, it is a wonky situation, and the creature would not gain an immunity to death because of this. All the situations that would normally damage the creature with fire would stop the regen.

You can determine way on your own, I would think the vulnerability would temper the Immunity to effect the regen without having to damage the creature. Looking at it through bold face singulars and saying "GOD!!" should not discount how these abilities would effect one another.

For the creature to have Regeneration, there must be a way to stop it. If there isn't, then perhaps he doesn't have it.

As a GM, I need to rule on such matters like this.

Would this be a "House Rule" or would it be something that can be agreed on without the clinging to legalize for the situation?

I agree that the two abilities together with regen has a difficult result to determine. I just go back to the fact that Regen always has a stop gag of some kind, it says so in the ability.


thaX wrote:


Evasion would counter the effect.

So damage must actually be applied then?

thaX wrote:


For the creature to have Regeneration, there must be a way to stop it. If there isn't, then perhaps he doesn't have it.

Said no tarrasque ever.

As a GM, whether you want to shut it down in your game or not is not a determining factor of what the rules state on the matter. I wouldn't have a problem with a GM saying they wouldn't allow the combo, but that doesn't make regen shut down not require damage to actually be dealt.

And if the GM is making the combo, then as a player I'm going to trust the GM to be doing so to make the game more enjoyable, not to be in a GM vs players competition.


Everyone is forgetting a very important fact, it doesn't matter whether or not regeneration can be suppressed, as soon as the Efreeti-Troll is knocked into the negatives you can drown it. Since it's unconscious it autofails its saves and dies in two rounds, regardless of whether or not its regeneration is still running. Create water is a cantrip, it shouldn't be hard to make enough to take the Efreeti-Troll out of combat permanently.

You could also do the same thing by forcing it to starve to death, but that would take notably longer.

Edit: That also applies to Big T, regeneration means nothing in the face of autokill.


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johnnythexxxiv wrote:

Everyone is forgetting a very important fact, it doesn't matter whether or not regeneration can be suppressed, as soon as the Efreeti-Troll is knocked into the negatives you can drown it. Since it's unconscious it autofails its saves and dies in two rounds, regardless of whether or not its regeneration is still running. Create water is a cantrip, it shouldn't be hard to make enough to take the Efreeti-Troll out of combat permanently.

You could also do the same thing by forcing it to starve to death, but that would take notably longer.

Edit: That also applies to Big T, regeneration means nothing in the face of autokill.

Being unconscious doesn't mean you auto fail your saves...

Unconscious:
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
Helpless:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.


Yeah, unconscious is "willing" for a handful of spells where that matters like teleport, but it never makes you auto fail saves.


Drowning doesn't use saving throws, it uses Con checks. Unconscious creatures don't auto-fail these checks, that's explicit in the drowning rules. They simply can't hold their breath, they have to immediately start making checks instead.


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johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Edit: That also applies to Big T, regeneration means nothing in the face of autokill.
Hibernation wrote:

If a spawn is forced into an environment where it cannot breathe and would suffocate, it goes into hibernation until conditions are right for it to reawaken.

While in hibernation, a spawn's damage reduction improves to 50/epic and it gains immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance as well as all divination effects.


or you can cast Eneveration few times to kill it


PłentaX wrote:
or you can cast Eneveration few times to kill it

/shrug

Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, or Plane Shift him to the negative material plane.

If the characters are facing 9th level spells, they should be high enough level to have options.


Drowning it or suffocating it both work.

I used half-dragon (red) moss trolls in my game as 'shock troops'. Pretty easy to counter once you know how.

Death effects still work too.


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I think the efreeti loses the immunity while in troll form. Here's my case (some of this has been mentioned above):

The efreeti's SQ in this case is as the spell giant form I. That's a polymorph spell, so this applies:

Magic / transmutation school / polymorph wrote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form

The immunity entry in the UMRs indicates that immunity is either (Ex) or (Su)...

Univesal Monster Rules wrote:
Immunity (Ex or Su)

...so the efreeti loses it.

I suppose it could be debated whether the efreeti's immunity depends on its original form. I think it does, and admit that my case hinges on that.


Ignotus Advenium wrote:

I think the efreeti loses the immunity while in troll form. Here's my case (some of this has been mentioned above):

The efreeti's SQ in this case is as the spell giant form I. That's a polymorph spell, so this applies:

Magic / transmutation school / polymorph wrote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form

immunity entry in the UMRs indicates that immunity is either (Ex) or (Su)...

Univesal Monster Rules wrote:
Immunity (Ex or Su)

...so the efreeti loses it.

I suppose it could be debated whether the efreeti's immunity depends on its original form. I think it does, and admit that my case hinges on that.

Here's the thing, though; the efreeti has the (fire) subtype, and polymorph effects do not change your type. The (fire) subtype grants immunity to fire, the efreeti is not immune to fire just as a special efreeti ability. It seems to me to be very much clear-cut that the efreeti will not lose the immunity (or the vulnerability to cold, for that matter.)


Snowlilly wrote:
johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Edit: That also applies to Big T, regeneration means nothing in the face of autokill.
Hibernation wrote:

If a spawn is forced into an environment where it cannot breathe and would suffocate, it goes into hibernation until conditions are right for it to reawaken.

While in hibernation, a spawn's damage reduction improves to 50/epic and it gains immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance as well as all divination effects.

That's only for the Inner Sea Gods version, the Bestiary version still has to breathe, even in the most recent printing.


Mairn wrote:

So the Efreeti can use its Change Shape SQ to take the form of a giant as Giant Form I.

Giant Form I lets the Efreeti take the shape of a Large size giant, which a Moss Troll is. You gain the trolls regeration 5 (fire), and Vulnerability (fire) but the Efreeti still has immunity to fire, so you can't counteract the regeneration.

Am I reading this wrong, or would any smart Efreeti who knows combat is coming it way just use this ability to become a Moss Troll?

I would say your reading it wrong since I am pretty positive the designers never intended to make a bypass to the standard regen rules to make an unkillable encounter.


johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Edit: That also applies to Big T, regeneration means nothing in the face of autokill.
Hibernation wrote:

If a spawn is forced into an environment where it cannot breathe and would suffocate, it goes into hibernation until conditions are right for it to reawaken.

While in hibernation, a spawn's damage reduction improves to 50/epic and it gains immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance as well as all divination effects.

That's only for the Inner Sea Gods version, the Bestiary version still has to breathe, even in the most recent printing.
Inner Sea Gods wrote:
The statistics presented here for the Tarrasque differ slightly from those in the Bestiary—this version more accurately represents the Tarrasque as the mightiest of Rovagug’s spawn.

Bolded for emphasis


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Ian Bell wrote:
Ignotus Advenium wrote:

I think the efreeti loses the immunity while in troll form. Here's my case (some of this has been mentioned above):

The efreeti's SQ in this case is as the spell giant form I. That's a polymorph spell, so this applies:

Magic / transmutation school / polymorph wrote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form

immunity entry in the UMRs indicates that immunity is either (Ex) or (Su)...

Univesal Monster Rules wrote:
Immunity (Ex or Su)

...so the efreeti loses it.

I suppose it could be debated whether the efreeti's immunity depends on its original form. I think it does, and admit that my case hinges on that.

Here's the thing, though; the efreeti has the (fire) subtype, and polymorph effects do not change your type. The (fire) subtype grants immunity to fire, the efreeti is not immune to fire just as a special efreeti ability. It seems to me to be very much clear-cut that the efreeti will not lose the immunity (or the vulnerability to cold, for that matter.)

Correct

Fire Subtype wrote:
A creature with the fire subtype has immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold.

Polymorph does not change subtype, subtype specific traits remain.

Gilfalas wrote:
I would say your reading it wrong since I am pretty positive the designers never intended to make a bypass to the standard regen rules to make an unkillable encounter.

There are plenty of ways to kill a regenerating Efreeti. "I hit it harder" does not happen to be one of those ways.


Snowlilly wrote:
johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Edit: That also applies to Big T, regeneration means nothing in the face of autokill.
Hibernation wrote:

If a spawn is forced into an environment where it cannot breathe and would suffocate, it goes into hibernation until conditions are right for it to reawaken.

While in hibernation, a spawn's damage reduction improves to 50/epic and it gains immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance as well as all divination effects.

That's only for the Inner Sea Gods version, the Bestiary version still has to breathe, even in the most recent printing.
Inner Sea Gods wrote:
The statistics presented here for the Tarrasque differ slightly from those in the Bestiary—this version more accurately represents the Tarrasque as the mightiest of Rovagug’s spawn.
Bolded for emphasis

Yeah, so within Golarion specifically the Tarrasque can't be drowned, but within Pathfinder as a whole it is still a viable tactic. More people are likely to be running the core version of a monster than its splatbook version.


Snowlilly wrote:
johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Edit: That also applies to Big T, regeneration means nothing in the face of autokill.
Hibernation wrote:

If a spawn is forced into an environment where it cannot breathe and would suffocate, it goes into hibernation until conditions are right for it to reawaken.

While in hibernation, a spawn's damage reduction improves to 50/epic and it gains immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance as well as all divination effects.

johnnythexxxiv wrote:
That's only for the Inner Sea Gods version, the Bestiary version still has to breathe, even in the most recent printing.

Oh, Big T. My friend. You've spawned so many internet arguments.

Here's the deal: either you take the original totes neutral Big T's regeneration wording as plain and descriptive, but not infinitely binding, and the rules interact rather cleanly and directly, in which case it's trivial to kill Big T and keep him down (though not merely through drowning*); or Big T simply can't be killed now or ever due to an over-adherence to a specific line of wording (that overrides another contrary line of wording within the same ability), and it become an eternal minor annoyance (well, minor for people over 8th-11th level) that no one at the game table really finds fun**.

But really, Big T in specific is a conversation for another thread.

The relationship to unblockable regeneration is neat, but doens't really help due to Big T's internally-contrary regeneration line.

So, what happens when regeneration can't be turned off? There are a couple of things that a GM needs to determine:

- do death effects temporarily override the unkillable nature of regeneration? (Big T points to "yes", but it's unclear if this is a 'standard' feature or just a weird side-effect)
- does having a CON of 0 destroy an ability that relies on CON to function? What about negative levels? (Logic says yes, but a score of "0" and "-" are clearly different from each other by-rules. If not, or if you go with the negative levels, you're left with a "it's dead, but also alive" problem. Hence the question.)
- does the Change Shape ability cause the fire subtype to either be lost or its benefits suppressed? (The rules tend to make both of these unlikely.)
- does having the damage type applied to it without actually taking the damage shut off the regeneration? (The rules make this dubious, and various printed sources presume otherwise.)

All of these are clever work-arounds and ploys, and certainly worthwhile, but a GM needs to consider them carefully.

Regardless, it seems like the efreeti wouldn't enjoy the process - it would be painful, humiliating, and terrifying. After all, moss trolls are afraid of fire, which is what the efreeti is made from, and the creature gains 'any other ability of the creature it mimics, despite the normal limitations of the spell it imitates (which is again, a self-contradiction, but that's okay - English is a sticky wicket, and lots of fun).

* Don't get me wrong. Drowning will totally kill it. It'll just get better a few rounds later.

** Well, some groups will, but those are extremely rare and not really something you can bank on. There's also a third option: you don't follow the rules. Which is a totally valid option! But, uh, then you're not following the rules, in which case it's strictly GM fiat.

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