So say for some reason I wanted to make a character that used double weapons *cough*final fantasy 9*cough*chrono cross*cough*, how would I go about optimizing that which people consider awful?
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Just make a normal split STR and DEX Twf build. With double weapons you can two hand AoO's. I like Lore Warden for combat maneuvers and greater trip. Most weapon familiarities give a double weapon. I like Chain Fighter for Half-Orcs give a dire flail which is nice for maneuvers.
Woah. I had no idea artful dodge existed. That is a cool feat.
Ranger or slayer is nice for Str-based two weapon fighting thanks to being able to ignore dex prerequisites. Another option is a Str-based investigator using artful dodge to use intelligence to qualify for TWF feats instead of dex.
I actually think you're better off starting with a 16 DEX, using your level up bonus on it, and pour the rest into STR. It's not wasted, you'll have great Reflex, diverse AC, and AoO's. The AoO's are what make double weapons good because you can two-hand them.
It does feel weird to have a good DEX AND STR, but it does work quite well.
I think I'd go with a half-orc, to gain the orc double axe as a racial bonus. I'd probably take sacred tattoo + fates favored to increase the saves. I might even take the racial thing to change out the +2 intimidate for the endurance feat.
I think I'd go unchained barbarian, their rage works pretty good with 2 weapon fighting since it gives a flat bonus to hit and damage.
I'd take str. 15 (17), Dex 16, con 14, int 10, wis 12 cha 7 for a 20 point buy.
Feat 2 weapon fighting at 1st level.
Dip 3 lvs of unchained rogue for dex to damage, then whatever class you want. Be good friends with any class with bardic performance.There is no finesse double weapon. Unchained rouge doesn't work here.
Could always use effortless lace if it's not PFS. Otherwise, yep. Can't find any double weapons that can be finessed.
If you could find a way to make that work, would you get 1.5 times your DEX bonus to damage when two-handing? Then it'd work.
Although going split STR/DEX is easier and quicker.
Can't find any double weapons that can be finessed.So... find a finesse weapon that can be doubled. :]
Elven Branched Spear + Spear Dancing Style
With Spear Dancing Spiral you could turn any polearm/spear into both a double weapon AND a finesse weapon.
Saw this. Thought "Yes please".
Went to go try and find a way to combo it with Spear Dancer.
Mildly upset that I can't think of anything to build dazzled into.
Was hoping that it would work for Dirty Trick Master to escalate into dazed, but it calls out escalation only for effects from previous tricks.
Bah.
Now I'm going to waste hours making a pole dancing fighting build.
Edit:
With spear dancing spiral you can turn any spear into a weapon you can finesse. That doesn't mean it is a finesse weapon for the the purposes of finesse training.
Ehhhh.
Finesse Training (Ex)
At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.
While using Spear Dancing Style, you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse with the chosen weapon if it is appropriately sized for a creature of your size category. In addition, you can use any feat or ability that functions with a quarterstaff with your chosen weapon.
Emphasis mine.
Spear Dancing Spiral specifically allows you to gain the benefits of weapon finesse with the selected weapon. Personally, I'd absolutely say serving as a prerequisite is part of the benefits.
But that's just me, I'd let it fly.
As for other tables? I'd expect a lot of variation with this one.
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With spear dancing spiral you can turn any spear into a weapon you can finesse. That doesn't mean it is a finesse weapon for the the purposes of finesse training.
Could someone argue that a weapon you "gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse" with (i.e. Spear Dancing Spiral) is NOT a weapon "that can be used with Weapon Finesse" (i.e. Finesse Training)?
Sure, there are people who will argue anything... but that's ok, because I'd never play at such a table.
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I like the sound of spear dancing style with an elven branched spear. That sounds like a pretty interesting build. Reach and two handed when you want it, TWF when you want it.
4 level dip into unchained rogue for dex to damage, debilitating injury, and a +1 to fort and will. As well as using rogue talents to pick up things like weapon focus and a free combat feat.
Follow it up with levels in slayer is probably the best way. Then general class abilities will combine.
Sounds like it could be pretty cool.
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Look for sources of bonus damage that aren't halved for off-hand attacks.
Fighter's weapon specialization and weapon training.
Medium's champion spirit bonus and seance boon.
Ranger's favored enemy, Paladin's smite, Cavalier's challenge offer larger, but more situational bonus damage.
Also, remember you can use a double weapon as a two-handed weapon should you be limited to one attack in a given round.
I'm doing quite well in PFS with a quarterstaff-wielding medium. Decent str + spirit bonuses + monk weapon skill trait give a lot of bonus damage that isn't halved for my off-hand attack.
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Something I've been actually tinkering with is a Warpriest who uses a Monk's Spade (all 3 damage types in 1 weapon is nice even if it is only a 20x2 crit plus you can adapt the build to any weapon by just swapping out quick draw for an exotic feat if you want an exotic double weapon). Built him on a 20pt. buy to level 6. Generally I only build characters to 6 to see how they turn out and this is what I've gotten so far.
Human Warpriest of Gorum (FCB 6/6 Bonus Combat Feat)
Str 14, Dex 17 (16+1L4), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14 (12+2 Human), Cha 7
Blessings - Destruction & War
Feats
1 - Weapon Focus Monk's Spade, Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
3 - Power Attack, Dual Enhancement
5 - Quick Draw (I like quick draw, I usually work it in to builds. eventually buy a ranged weapon once he gets more wealth from adventuring. has spiritual weapon until then)
6 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Lunge
Traits
Fates Favored, Reactionary
Not so much getting his damage from Str as he is buffs. Destruction blessing for +3 damage, Divine Favour for +3 to hit and Damage, Sacred Weapon to enhance both ends with Dual Enhancement. War Blessing can help on attack rolls if needed, or better positioning.
LV6 Wealth of 16,000g
4620g +1/+1 Monk's Spade
5400g +1 Mithril Agile Breastplate
2000g Handy Haversack
750g Wand of Cure Light
1000g Muleback Cords
2000g Ring of Protection +1 (not really needed with shield of faith, but still nice to have because you probably want more divine favors)
230g remaining for adventuring supplies
Daring Champion Cavalier can finesse the Taiaha (stone age double weapon)
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With spear dancing spiral you can turn any spear into a weapon you can finesse. That doesn't mean it is a finesse weapon for the the purposes of finesse training.Could someone argue that a weapon you "gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse" with (i.e. Spear Dancing Spiral) is NOT a weapon "that can be used with Weapon Finesse" (i.e. Finesse Training)?
Sure, there are people who will argue anything... but that's ok, because I'd never play at such a table.
This is an issue that's repeatedly come up in various cases, and it's really quite straightforward. Just because a given character can use Weapon Finesse with a given type of weapon under very special circumstances doesn't alter the 'type of weapon' that it actually is. Or put another way, Spear Dancing Spiral: Longspear temporarily makes a longspear 'a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse' only if you're actively using the feat/style, and only if it's appropriately sized, which is pretty obviously not the same thing as changing the universal properties of the weapon type.
The obvious argument against someone saying that they can take Finesse Training: Longspear because of Spear Dancing Spiral: Longspear is "you aren't actively using Spear Dancing Spiral while you're leveling up, and 'longspear appropriately sized for your character' isn't a valid weapon type anyhow".
The fact that you need to actually be using Spear Dancing Spiral at all is proof that the weapon isn't a 'type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse' even for a character with the feat - it simply allows them to act like it is under specific circumstances.
Of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a houserule that permits it. It's just good to be clear on the actual rules/mechanics.
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Dip 3 lvs of unchained rogue for dex to damage, then whatever class you want. Be good friends with any class with bardic performance.There is no finesse double weapon. Unchained rouge doesn't work here.
Unless I'm missing a FAQ/clarification somewhere double weapons are halfway finessable. If you are two-weapon fighting the off-hand attack counts as a light weapon.
(Of course this really isn't terribly useful. Finessing your off-hand but using strength for your main hand is. . . suboptimal.)
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One idea...
Race: Half-Orc
Weapon: Double Orc Waraxe (1d8/1d8 x3). Gives you the most damage of the double weapons and still counts as a normal and light weapon.
Class: Slayer
Sacred Tattoos, Fate's Favored (For +2 to all saves), Reactionary (+2 initiative)
Stats:
Str (20) Dex (13) Con (14) Int (9) Wis (10) Cha (7)
lvl 1: Use the double war axe as a normal 1d8 two handed weapon. You lose out on 1-2 damage, but make up for it with studied target giving +1 to hit and +1 damage. Take weapon focus, as it will eventually give +1 to hit with both attacks.
lvl 2: Take Ranger Combat Styles* for your bonus feat. Select Two Weapon Fighting. This lets you take two weapon fighting with only Dex 13.
lvl 3: I'd take improved initiative, to boost your initiative from +3 to +7.
lvl 4: Another slayer talent, another time you get to steal from rangers. This time take Improved Two Weapon Fighting.
lvl 5: Given that your AC is probably pretty low, you can take tough hide for +1 AC. Your studied target increases at this lvl to give +2 to all attack rolls and damage.
lvl 6: Another slayer talent. I'd go for double slice. Give full Str bonus to your offhand attacks.
lvl 7: Call me crazy, but I'd go for dodge. +2 AC should help keep you alive for when the enemies turn on you after you hit them with your 4 attacks and 2d6 points of sneak attack damage.
lvl 8: Another slayer talent. This time I'd grab two weapon defense. +3 AC, with natural armor, shield and dodge bonuses.
lvl 9: +1 strength, so you are up to Str 22. Your sneak attack increases to 3d6.
lvl 10: Slayer talent, grab greater two weapon fighting. At this point you are up to 5 attacks. Your studied target increases to +3 to hit and +3 damage.
lvl 11: For a feat...I'd actually take intimidating prowess. Use Cha for Intimidate instead of Cha. This adds with Stalker which adds +3 to intimidate. So your intimidate, if you put a point in it every level, becomes +23. Without this feat, it is +15. That is a huge difference. So really late in the game, you suddenly turn into someone who can do some actual talking. Even if the talking just means being really scary. Plus, its fun this late to know that your character is a badass whom people are scared of.
lvl 12: Where PFS ends. Sneak attack increases to 4d6. Grab two weapon rend for your slayer talent. If both your first and second attack hit, do an extra 1d10 damage with +1/2 strength modifier. For your stat point, get dexterity for the +1 AC, reflex save and initiative.
Final Stats:
Str (22) Dex (14) Con (14) Int (9) Wis (10) Cha (7)
Studied Target: +3 to hit, +3 damage. Great because it applies to all of your attacks, as does your weapon focus for another +1 to hit.
Full BaB for 3 attacks, with an extra +3 from your weapon/feats. If first two hit, do extra damage.
+2 to AC from feats, +2 to all saves for being a half-orc, for your defense.
Initiative: +8
That's how I'd do it at least. A strength based dual weapon fighter who gets away with ending with Str22 and Dex14.
Pretty sure you can only take the Ranger Combat Style talent a total of 3 times, at a minimum of level 6 for the second and 10 for the third. So you can definitely get the full TWF line with it, but not the side feats.
EDIT:
Also, Intimidating Prowess lets you add your Strength modifier in addition to your Charisma modifier, not instead of. So you probably don't actually want to dump Charisma completely unless you're also taking a trait like Clever Wordplay to switch it to a different ability score.
So say for some reason I wanted to make a character that used double weapons *cough*final fantasy 9*cough*chrono cross*cough*, how would I go about optimizing that which people consider awful?
No matter how much you beg your GM, I highly doubt he's going to let you have a double-bladed katana, a la FF9's Masamune. :P
Pretty sure you can only take the Ranger Combat Style talent a total of 3 times, at a minimum of level 6 for the second and 10 for the third. So you can definitely get the full TWF line with it, but not the side feats.
EDIT:
Also, Intimidating Prowess lets you add your Strength modifier in addition to your Charisma modifier, not instead of. So you probably don't actually want to dump Charisma completely unless you're also taking a trait like Clever Wordplay to switch it to a different ability score.
Good point on the Intimidation.
As for slayer and ranger feats, why can't they take the ranger combat style multiple times?
This is what I came up with. Not particularly optimized, it's basically just a TWF rogue/slayer build.
Spear Dancing Elven Branch Spear
Half-elf rogue (unchained) 4/slayer 6 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 53, Pathfinder Unchained 20)
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 18, flat-footed 20 (+7 armor, +2 deflection, +6 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 79 (10 HD; 4d8+6d10+20)
Fort +11, Ref +19, Will +6; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities danger sense +1, evasion, uncanny dodge; Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 elven branched spear +21/+16 (1d8+14/×3) or
+2 elven branched spear +19/+14 (1d8+11/×3), +2 elven branched spear +19/+14 (1d6+7/×2)
Special Attacks sneak attack (unchained) +2d6, sneak attack +2d6, studied target +2 (2nd, move action)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +11; CMD 28
Feats Combat Expertise, Improved Two-weapon Feint[UC], Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Skill Focus (Bluff), Spear Dancing Reach, Spear Dancing Spiral, Spear Dancing Style, Two-weapon Feint[UC], Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (elven branched spear)
Skills Acrobatics +20, Bluff +19 (+21 to feint, +29 to lie, +24 to feint, 14 to pass a hidden message), Climb +4, Diplomacy +11 (+13 to gather information), Disable Device +13, Disguise +4, Escape Artist +20, Heal +4, Perception +17, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +20, Survival +4, Swim +4, Use Magic Device +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Sylvan
SQ combat style (two-weapon combat), debilitating injury: bewildered, debilitating injury: disoriented, debilitating injury: hampered, elf blood, half-elf rogue/ninja, rogue talents (combat trick, weapon training), slayer talents (emboldening strike +2, ranger combat style[ACG], ranger combat style[ACG], slow reactions), track +3, trapfinding +2
Other Gear +2 mithral kikko armor[UC], +2 elven branched spear, mask of stony demeanor[ARG], 18,730 gp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
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Armor Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
Studied Target +2 (move action, 2 at a time) (Ex) - 0/2
Weapon Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
--------------------
Special Abilities
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+2 Bluff (feinting) and Diplomacy (gather information) Add a +1/2 bonus on Bluff checks to feint and Diplomacy checks to gather information.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Danger Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Disoriented -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes attack pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Hampered (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage has speed halved (and can't 5 ft step) for 1 rd.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Emboldening Strike +2 (Ex) Sneak attack grants listed bonus to saves for 1 rd.
Evasion (Ex) If succeed on Reflex save for half dam, take none instead.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint Make a Bluff check instead of your first attack
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Slow Reactions (Ex) Foes hit by a sneak attack can't make AoO for 1 rd.
Sneak Attack (Unchained) +2d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +2d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Spear Dancing Reach (Elven branched spear) Spear Dancing Style: full attack grants reach to one or both ends of chosen wep.
Spear Dancing Spiral (Elven branched spear) Spear Dancing Style: use weapon finesse with chosen weapon.
Spear Dancing Style (Elven branched spear) Chosen weapon becomes double weapon as light mace on off handed side.
Studied Target +2 (move action, 2 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Move action, gain +2 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Track +3 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trapfinding +2 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Two-Weapon Feint Forgo first melee attack to feint
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
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PFS rule of thumb - if a rules element can have multiple reasonable interpretations, build your character using the least permissive interpretation (or don't use it at all).
Hardest part of that whole sentence - being able to admit that your interpretation isn't the only possible one.
Maybe the player can present a well-reasoned argument in favor of something but in the absence of a FAQ/errata/clarification the GM is the decider. If the player is attempting to force an interpretation the GM does not believe is correct, the player is the one being the jerk. If the GM is refusing to allow something just because she doesn't like it, she is the jerk.
Dip 3 lvs of unchained rogue for dex to damage, then whatever class you want. Be good friends with any class with bardic performance.There is no finesse double weapon. Unchained rouge doesn't work here.
One of several gripes I have regarding double chained kama.
Spear Dancing Style addresses some of these concerns, though has some points that lack clarity.
It lets you treat a polearm as a double weapon (which means you get to apply the weapon enhancement to both end for attack and damage? Herolab seems to think that's the case though it shouldn't be taken as a rules source). This helps with the GP problem.
Guaranteeing full attacks...well that's just a problem for all martial characters in general but is worse for TWF than THF.
There are ways of getting it done. Levels in barbarian probably don't work well for this build. Monk could do okay, but you're not going to do a dex based build. They good news is you don't need the TWF feats, and can still qualify for Spear Dancing Style so you should be alright. You just have to use a polearm with the monk quality so you can flurry it.
This would be a pretty good build too. Weapon using monks are generally better than unarmed strike monks anyways.