I may have need for a mid to high level necromancer in my campaign. When looking at the info on the SRD, it would seem that the best necromancer to make from an optimization standpoint would be a cleric instead of a wizard - especially when it comes to making undead. Is this correct? Or are there some advantages an arcane necromancer could have that a divine one doesn't? The necromancer in question would probably be around 13th level or so.
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Well you'd get haste for your undead.
3 wizard 3 cleric 7 theurge.
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Wizards get some nice tricks to make up for getting animate spells late.
The command undead spell is difficult to get on a cleric, and provides a pretty substantial increase to the amount of undead you can control - a high-HD skeleton will only take a single 2nd-level spell every week or two, freeing up space in your animate dead control cap.
If you have a cleric capable of casting desecrate in the party, you are at no disadvantage. If not, spend 2k to pick up a vodstick for the pocket desecrate.
Also, if your GM lets you swing it, blood money will let you bypass the onyx costs, provided you can get some cheap/free ability damage removal from a party member (or are willing to sleep it off between raising undead).
EDIT: I was assuming this was for a PC. For an NPC, you can explain away a huge amount of undead with some massed preparations of command undead, far in excess of his HD limit from animate dead. Very handy if you want the PCs to fight a bunch of skeletal T-rexes or something. The cleric spell list has some nice buffs for undead that are easier to set up for an NPC's base than if you are attacking as a PC (unhallow, or even just desecrate).
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I'd like to suggest the Occultist. It's not as powerful as a Wizard or Cleric, but you get some other cool goodies out of it. The Necromantic Focus allows you to have more undead on the field than the other classes, and you get some cool goodies out of the class as well. The Necroccultist even gets to pick some Necormancy spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list, which complements him nicely. With Transmutation as your second implement school you can give them Haste and other buffs, and the other schools also have all sorts of goodies.
Again, I think either a Sorc/Wiz or a Cleric is a better choice, but I think the Occultist has its merits, especially with some of its Focus Powers. You can make your skeletons split if they die, and give out teamwork feats! Necromantic Servant is a bit silly at times.
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arcane is cooler than divine xD
Heresy!
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Basically, the arcane necromancer is an entirely different beast. It's much more focused on attack spells and much less on creating undead.
For PCs, who often find themselves fighting a few monsters that are individually quite powerful, that's actually better; undead mooks aren't that much help.
For an NPC, it depends on his goals. If he wants to oppress the countryside, cleric is the way to go. While his mooks might not be able to stand up to the PCs, they can at least work as cannon fodder, giving him time before the PCs can close in melee with him. But their major role is in the NPC vs. NPC action that's going on as the backdrop for the adventure. The PCs are invading his fortress of doomy death because he's been using undead to oppress the countryside.
If the NPC is focused on beating the PCs, arcane might be better. Brutal attack spells will probably do more than undead mooks. Necromancy is particularly good at inflicting lots of different debuffs that last for quite long, so if you have a chance to do hit and run, it could be more effective than evocation at wearing down a party.
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For an NPC, it depends on his goals. If he wants to oppress the countryside, cleric is the way to go. While his mooks might not be able to stand up to the PCs, they can at least work as cannon fodder, giving him time before the PCs can close in melee with him. But their major role is in the NPC vs. NPC action that's going on as the backdrop for the adventure. The PCs are invading his fortress of doomy death because he's been using undead to oppress the countryside.
This is pretty much it. The NPC I had in mind would be from the country of Reece (homebrew world), which was invaded by Abagaard, and his role in the campaign would be raising undead in order to terrorize the Abarish villages and countryside in retaliation for the invasion.
My original plan was to use the warsworn undead creature with the idea it was created by the necromancer. Unfortunately that undead creature is not on the list of undead that can be created with create greater undead, so I'll have to figure out some other GM-fiat explanation regarding how the necromancer created it.
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This is why: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command-undead
Say hello to your army of undead that is only limited by the number of casts per every couple days. Just don't hit them with AoE. Not that you need AoE when you're controlling tons of undead through animate dead, the command undead feat, and this spell.
I prefer Gravewalker Witch over wizard and cleric any day for building a "horde of undead" type necromancer. Ranged inflicts to heal your minions through your replacement familiar, a free ability that basically functions as the command undead feat, the command undead spell as a patron spell, and the ability to magic jar one of your own undead. That way the necromancer can take a more direct approach to getting rid of those meddling PCs without putting his/her physical body in danger. You do miss out on channel negative which is a pretty big negative though.
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I prefer Gravewalker Witch over wizard and cleric any day for building a "horde of undead" type necromancer. Ranged inflicts to heal your minions through your replacement familiar, a free ability that basically functions as the command undead feat, the command undead spell as a patron spell, and the ability to magic jar one of your own undead. That way the necromancer can take a more direct approach to getting rid of those meddling PCs without putting his/her physical body in danger. You do miss out on channel negative which is a pretty big negative though.
Note that the gravewalker and hex channeler archetypes stack. You don't get as many dice, but Control Undead is dependent on level, not dice.
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I may have need for a mid to high level necromancer in my campaign. When looking at the info on the SRD, it would seem that the best necromancer to make from an optimization standpoint would be a cleric instead of a wizard - especially when it comes to making undead. Is this correct? Or are there some advantages an arcane necromancer could have that a divine one doesn't? The necromancer in question would probably be around 13th level or so.
I've always found that a Spell Sage Wizard Dhampir makes an excellent necromancer. You get to cast your animation spells at the same times as a cleric, and you still gain access to Wizard spells.
The best part is Blood Money. Free skeletons, anyone? Free raise deads for when the rogue decides he can solo everything? Free restorations? Free MIRACLE at level 17?
What is not to love? Sure, you don't get channel undead, but your caster level for Necromancy spells gets increased by the Dhampir's favored class bonus so it more or less balanced out.
Just make sure you make all of your undead bloody skeletons, so you don't have to worry about healing them or caring if they die.
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I suggest Arcane. Both have their benefits, but I think that Arcane might have the edge, unless you're focusing on command/control of undead.
You get a great selection of defensive spells that will keep you alive (especially Displacement, Greater Invisibility, Blink) and lots of fantastic offensive capabilities.
Also, most people overlook this, but I think it's amazing:
Necromancer's Athame
If this character is an NPC, it's a cinch to set it up with this; in combat, it allows you to benefit from tons of flexibility, which is obviously useful.
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Divine Necromancers are better for your classic "command an army of the dead," but there isn't much else they do. Arcane Necromancers get most of the fun necromantic tricks other than that - meaning that in many settings and campaigns, they're much better-suited for PC Necromancers.
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I prefer Gravewalker Witch over wizard and cleric any day for building a "horde of undead" type necromancer. Ranged inflicts to heal your minions through your replacement familiar, a free ability that basically functions as the command undead feat, the command undead spell as a patron spell, and the ability to magic jar one of your own undead. That way the necromancer can take a more direct approach to getting rid of those meddling PCs without putting his/her physical body in danger. You do miss out on channel negative which is a pretty big negative though.Note that the gravewalker and hex channeler archetypes stack. You don't get as many dice, but Control Undead is dependent on level, not dice.
Cool. Off to modify my necromancer~
Divine Necromancers are better for your classic "command an army of the dead,"
Is this just because of the lower-level spell slots and ability to channel to heal? Am I missing something? I feel that the wizard is much better at having a large amount of undead under their control, as they have access to an extra bucket independent of HD limits.
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I may have need for a mid to high level necromancer in my campaign. When looking at the info on the SRD, it would seem that the best necromancer to make from an optimization standpoint would be a cleric instead of a wizard - especially when it comes to making undead. Is this correct? Or are there some advantages an arcane necromancer could have that a divine one doesn't? The necromancer in question would probably be around 13th level or so.
I definitely think the basic CRB necromancer using arcane casting is inferior to the divine version. I think with the many pathfinder supplements, this is no longer the case (both are awesome).
Are you looking for pure undead generation, or some sort of combination/specialization?
For example, If you go with skeleton generation, most skeletons have immunity to cold.
If going that route, I'd look into a Black Blooded Oracle (since the curse grants immunity/resistance to cold and allows the character to heal as undead). The mystery is up to you, though I'd lean towards Bones or Winter. It's a nifty build because the "necromancer" can blast with cold while their minions are unaffected.
You could do a similar build with a Cross blooded sorcerer with the Undead and one of the cold-based bloodlines (elemental, Boreal, or draconic).
There's also a Skeleton Summoner feat that allows summoning skeleton versions of Summon Monster spells, which is limited in function and the skeleton template mostly makes them weaker, but the immunity to cold can balance it if you've got a focus in cold AoE spells (which the summoned creature is now unaffected by).
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If you are arcane, you can get False Focus to reduce your onyx costs.
As long as you stay at 100 gp or less, your 100 gp holy symbol lets you not need to pay.
/cevah
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The thing with Cleric is that they can command 2 sets of dice with undead: Their Class level with control undead channel feat, and the spell animate undead.
So technically you have your normal animate undead/create undead + channel control allowing for quite a few HD of undead.
Of the spellcasters you have a few different flavours:
Cleric: 2 pools of HD, buffs, combat capable.
Oracle: Unique self-buffs, Spotanious casting, combat capable.
Wizard: Better offensive spell-pool.
Sorcerer: Better spell selection than the oracle, Spotanious casting.
Of the other undead minion classes i dont have any experience with, so i think its about selecting a flavour, or add more necromancers.
Have the main BBEG and his wife be a Divine/Arcane pair of necromancers that somehow managed to splice the two types and make something...quite different. ( Unable to have their own children, the undead then became their children and the hatred towards the living whom hunt their children they decide its time for a new era where their children can live in peace. )
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THIS. The Mystic Theurge is the best necromancer, period.
No it's not. Had two friends play a theurge with Necromancer theme and they suck. Spell variety is nice but you lose far too much in power splitting it with this Prestige class. One you lose the channel Mystic Theurge doesn't allow a Cleric's channel to level up after leaving cleric. Can't wear armor without taking feats for your arcane spells. This isn't opionion but two players playing this combination a few times trying to make them work. Both were very disappointed with the results.
While not a fan of the class the DeathWalker Witch is better long term then this combination.
It is an educated opinion based upon the attempts you witnessed...but never the less, an opinion.
To the OP...I agree with the Mystic Theurge route, but instead try Witch 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge X. ...and choose Hex Channeler for a Witch Archtype...and then choose to up your Witch channeling dice by spending hexes and additional hexes from feat selection of such. I'm currently playing a Witch(Hex Channeler)/Cleric/Mystic Theurge, and I had a hard time not letting myself make her a Necro due to the options available and the ridiculous amount of channels that I have available as a Hex Channeler / Cleric.
Divine necromancers are usually better at creating undead (more support spells, bigger pool, some spells aren't on the arcane list) and at supporting/buffing them.
Arcane necromancers are usually better at debuffing enemies (lots of nice spells for the purpose) and have a bigger toolbox (they have access to lots of things divine magic rarely does).
That said, you CAN build a good necromancer in quite a few different ways, so it really depends on what you're planning to do. A GM looking for a mook-raiser BBEG? A player wanting to curse/terrify/blind all his enemies? A player wanting to roleplay exploration of life and death issues? Someone planning to create single giant undead?
(Keep in mind that most hordes of mooks will be much lower-level than you, so unless you have really good mook tactics in mind, put some thought into what SORT of undead you want to create and use.)
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"Grave Digger"? "Death Walker"?
C'mon, people, the witch archetype is Gravewalker!
Also, yes, the gravewalker and hex channeler archetypes can be taken together, witches can learn Blood Money, they can Cure & Inflict, and they can control a single extra undead, but my favourite thing about them is their Possess Undead ability. Use it on a fast zombie, use the disguise hex to make it look like you, and when the opposition blasts your zombie to bits, they'll think they've killed you when they haven't!
If the GM uses the Possession rules from Occult Adventures instead of Magic Jar, it works more smoothly. Also, that way, a witch can cast Possession on a living person while possessing an undead. That way, she's now possessing a living opponent, and her undead reverts back to previous instructions.
Having done this stuff as a PC, it is both effective and hilarious. While not as offense-based as a wizard or sorcerer, or as healing/number-effective as a cleric, an undead-focused witch is good at being tricky and mysterious.
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This screams NPC leadership feat chaining. Why not have a wizard with a cleric who has a witch?
I may have need for a mid to high level necromancer in my campaign. When looking at the info on the SRD, it would seem that the best necromancer to make from an optimization standpoint would be a cleric instead of a wizard - especially when it comes to making undead. Is this correct? Or are there some advantages an arcane necromancer could have that a divine one doesn't? The necromancer in question would probably be around 13th level or so.
Access to wizard spells for when you want to do other things besides robbing the local graveyard come to mind.
Or to put it simpler.... wizard spells.
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AAs others have mentioned a wizard necromancer is much better at debuffs, damage, and save or die/suck spells, and with better range/mass targeting.
Witch tends to make a better all around necromancer for the reasons others have cited.
Divines tend to do armies of undead better than wizards and about as well as a witch, but typically give up less versatility for this specialization than the witch does (not that the witch gives up too much).
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Command Undead + Pearls of Power II. How many large undead would you like?
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Arcane casters can make Simulacra, and let them handle the drudgery of controlling the troops...
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I have yet to play an undead commander but I plan on using an Occultist Cleric combination. Occultists focus on Necromancy along with a Clerics channel made to command offer me a large pool of undead above and beyond Animate Dead.
This is a general reminder of things I always say in these threads, but abilities like Channel or 6/HD Animate Dead to control undead are pointless. Command Undead is a 2nd level spell that will let you easily control several hundred HD of undead if you want.
The most valuable spells for a necromancer to have are:
1. Animate Dead - If you can't do this you don't count as a necromancer in my book.
2. Command Undead - If you can't order a 20+ HD mindless undead around with no save using a 2nd level spell slot you're not very good at controlling undead.
3. Blood Money - Not inherently important to being a necromancer, but extremely important if you want to Animate Dead both on the fly and on the cheap.
4. Desecrate - But not really. Or rather any character can get a desecrate effect by picking up a voidstick for 2,500 gp.
My vote for best Necromancer continues to go to Gravewalker Witch as they can at-will control undead from level 1, get all the relevant spells, and can at-will magic jar undead later on.
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So I have scanned this post and a lot of what I am seeing is that Cleric>Wizard for hordes because of Command Undead, but what about a Wizard's Undead school specialization that gets Command Undead? Hordes and all the boom spells...I will admit I'd miss negative channel, but I feel Fireball could ease my pain. :P
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Not boom. Hordes of undead plus spells that do horrible things to non-undead creatures -- for instance, mind fog or cloudkill. I suppose you could cast communal fire resistance on your horde before starting the fireball-tossing, but using stuff the undead are naturally immune to is just more elegant.
So I have scanned this post and a lot of what I am seeing is that Cleric>Wizard for hordes because of Command Undead, but what about a Wizard's Undead school specialization that gets Command Undead? Hordes and all the boom spells...I will admit I'd miss negative channel, but I feel Fireball could ease my pain. :P
Opposite. Arcane (or rather anyone with Command Undead the SPELL) is the best for commanding hordes. Command Undead the feat is not even remotely as good.
So I have scanned this post and a lot of what I am seeing is that Cleric>Wizard for hordes because of Command Undead, but what about a Wizard's Undead school specialization that gets Command Undead? Hordes and all the boom spells...I will admit I'd miss negative channel, but I feel Fireball could ease my pain. :P
Opposite. Arcane (or rather anyone with Command Undead the SPELL) is the best for commanding hordes. Command Undead the feat is not even remotely as good.
So, I mean, obviously, you know, this guy...
This man seems... off, somehow, with teeth misaligned, clothes poorly maintained, a terrible sense of hygiene, and an awkward misalignment of his features. He gulps, looking at you blankly, and offers you some "lemonade" (whatever that is) to drink in an exceptionally filthy glass. He is attended by an alarmingly large number of the shuffling unliving, who he seems to have named and refer to casually.
XP 12,800
Halfling commoner 13
CN Small humanoid
Init+6' Senses Perception +3
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 45 (13d6)
Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +3; +2 v. fear
Speed 20 ft.
Melee unarmed +2/-3 (1d2 nonlethal)
Ranged sling +9/+4 (1d3)
Spell-like Abilities (CL 3rd)
- Continuous-command undead (DC 13)
Str 8, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 9
Base Atk +6/+1, CMB +5, CMD +7
Feats Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (perform [banjo]), Skill Focus (Craft [lemonade]), Skill Focus (Stealth), Skill Focus (Perception), Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Skill Focus (Climb)
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +4, Craft (lemonade) +5, Fly +4, Perception +3, Perform (banjo) +18, Stealth +13
Languages Common (barely)
SQ really stupid
Combat Gear Mwk Sling, 20 bullets, Mwk Hide Shirt, Mwk Armored Kilt; Other Gear Mwk Banjo, Bell, Blanket, Mwk Lemonade Stand, Mwk Lemonade Kit, Mwk Lemon Grove, Hammock, 9 Lengths of Rope [Hemp] (50 ft.), Large Tent, Kerchief of the Shuffle Friend; 21 gp, 1 sp, 10 cp
Kerchief of the Shuffle Friend
Aura moderate necromancy; CL 3rd
Slot neck; Price 6,000 gp; Weight -
This garrish and dirty-looking rag wraps around the neck or hair, or sticks out of a pocket. When it's been worn for at least 24 hours, it grants the user a continuous command undead effect at a caster level 3 to all undead within range (30 ft.), with a DC 13 to negate for intelligent undead.
This item does not grant its power to anyone other than a creature with more levels of commoner than any other hit dice. Regardless of the bearer (which is anyone who touches it), it grants them a -4 penalty to all charisma checks dealing with creatures other than undead (or the blind and lacking a sense of smell, or those with really bad sensibilities and lacking the concept of hygiene); this penalty cannot be removed (even if the cloth is discarded) without a remove curse and a good bath (with soap).
Craft Wondrous Item, command undead; Cost 3,500 gp
I'm a helper!
EDIT: MORE LINKS!