Yure's page

I mean things only sell for 10% of what they are worth and if nobody in the party is using it... It's not really destroying much. Items can also be repaired for at the most 200 UPBs.

I mean... I could sunder an enemy weapon as a vanguard... And repair the loot... Or I can bull rush them into the abyss with momentum aspect and we can lose the story critical item.

Either way, all instance where I would use either combat maneuvers are edge occasions. I just thought it was silly that they make it so hard to do one over the other.

Like.. you are right. I could disarm. Like forever. Or I could just keep tripping. Or I could just keep grappling. Like all those shutdown a scenario pretty equally. Well except momentum bull rush... That's like a bye begone. But some of those distinctively work better and have less downside than the other.

I guess there is the shatter property.

I mean, weapons can be repaired if need be. But like it was pointed out adamantine becomes useless for sunder at lvl 11 it seems. Even if it does eventually go through hardness, you have to use sunder a ridiculous amount of time to actually break the weapon.

So yes, I think it needs a review at least.

I saw this thread and I thought it was pretty broken in terms of usability. I also tried looking up sunder builds and I could not find any. In fact most threads I found everyone said, don't do it.

https://www.enworld.org/threads/help-me-understand-sunder.669520/

We'll set up a level 5 Vanguard with Cascade Aspect (Sunder maneuver feat), Penetrating Entropic Attunement, and a Frost Maul for the sunder special (pretend it's level 5).

If he uses the sunder combat maneuver:

1) His to-hit will be +6 (+4 from the feat, +2 from the weapon) vs KAC+8, making it a check vs KAC+2. (I'll assume the basic attack is enough to make it a 50/50 hit chance vs normal KAC.) Then I can vaguely approximate this as dropping from a 50% chance to hit to a 40% chance to hit (or a 30% chance without the maul). That's already a significant penalty, and still requires a feat and special weapon just to make it "just a little bit" bad.

2) The average hardness of a weapon (p.409) is 5 + 2 * weapon/armor level. Assuming the enemy has a level 5 weapon to match the character, that's a hardness of 15. With the Penetrating Entropic Attunement, that's reduced by the attacker's weapon level (5), so we're at 10.

3) The Entropic Strike damage for a level 5 Vanguard is 1d6 + Con. Con at level 5 is likely 19, for a +4 bonus. The maximum possible damage that can be done by the Vanguard is 10 damage. The target weapon hardness reduces damage by 10. It is therefore impossible to ever do any damage with the sunder maneuver.

4) Even if something did manage to push the damage result into the net positive, the level 5 target weapon has 15 + 3*weapon level hit points. So for our level 5 weapon, that's 30 hit points. If I add an extra +2 Con augment and manage to roll max damage, I can now do 11 damage, reduced to 1 damage due to the weapon's hardness. So after 30 attacks (with a 30%-40% hit chance, and rolling max damage each time), I'd manage to finally break the opponent's weapon. Or, using the actual probabilities, it would take me an average of 450 attacks to break a level 5 weapon.

Compare with Entropic Grasp, a level 3 spell which can do 6d6 damage when attempting to sunder an object. That's an average of 21 damage, compared to the maximum of 10-11 (and average of about 8) for the Vanguard's attack. Even that would still take 5 casts to break a level 5 weapon, assuming the full 15 hardness applies its damage reduction. (If it doesn't, then only 2 casts.)

So, baseline, I have a crappy chance to do nothing. This seems beyond ludicrous.

Please tell me I'm missing something. Two of the Vanguard's Aspects provide the Improved Combat Feat (sunder), which means two of the Aspects might as well not give any bonus feat at all. Having two such Aspects also suggests that Paizo is leaning towards this being the more intended design goal for the Vanguard class, relative to the other available combat maneuvers.

Starfinder has been out for a while now. I would have thought there would have been a fixing to the hardness of things.

Thanks for the help all. I think I'm going to do it. Going to go with my blind Vlaka ace Pilot.

As far as reasoning besides what y'all have given I'll add this to the list for Rules as Written.

"Precise Senses
Source Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 260
Precise senses allow a creature to perceive the world in nuanced detail. For many creatures, the only precise sense they have is vision. Most other precise senses are collectively referred to as “blindsight,” indicating that they are precise like vision but creatures can use them without needing to see."

Did sunder get an errata or FAQ fix? Is it in the works for still being considered or no?

Was there any resolution to the Sunder conundrum?

Yeah, I know. But I was trying to find a way to interface with the ship with some sort of computer or headgear that pings sonar stuff but I could not find anything.

Yeah, at the end I could not find a way to make it work. I think I will go with one of the few Vlaka that has both senses and got chosen to be one of the pilots sent to explore the galaxy in hopes to finding a new home.

I was really digging the idea of a blind Vlaka pilot that uses aircraft screens to get over the 60ft limitation when it came to space combat. However as I kept looking for ways to make this work, I realized that blind meant he could not even look at a screen in front of him. So then I thought of just making him deaf. Which I thought I could make work, but the more I started looking into this I realized. How do Vlakas communicate if deaf?

They could know 10 languages, but one, I'd be curious to know how they speak it if they have not heard it. Two, when communicating with the group how does that work?

Is it possible to add able to read lips into the Vlaka's race description. If not it seems to me my character is going to be stuck with a datapad in his hands or going to have to find a telepathic communicator.

Those of you who have played Vlakas, how do you overcome these challenges?

Nah, you can stack harrying fire. By the way flanking works you can't stack flanking bonus when everyone surrounds the target.

As the world becomes more digitalized and programs such as Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds becomes more prominent, hard maps become harder to turn a profit. They have to be shipped to a store at a price that can afford such a shipment. While the initial order might pay off paizo, the store owners might not buy them again because they sit on the shelves forEVER. Granted they can get re-used for other modules/content/homebrew, but they still don't sell enough. Because as a customer I can just buy a decent projector for the price of two map packs ... or even one depending on the projector, and then just project the digital version.

Would be nice to see a digital stuff on sale without numbers etc...

Yeah, I love a lot of what Starfinder did with the rules from Pathfinder 1e... just wish certain things were fleshed out more.

But what are the rules? Aid Another specifically calls out skill checks so not sure if that applies.

Is there any rules in regards to multiple PCs attempting to assist another in attempting a grapple check?

Could you move through a square as part of a move action to move to another points, and pick up an item as you pass that square as another move action (just in between your move action)? Kind of like Spring Attack...

By the rules it is allowed.

A change to this is a house rule.

If you want to change it; house rule it.

Unless it is Pathfinder Society game, then it's allowed.

Careful with house rules as once it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

Imprinting Hand (Su) (Mythic Adventures pg. 22): By touching a foe, you can gain knowledge about it, including its weaknesses. To use this ability, you must first successfully hit a foe with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or melee touch attack to make contact, then use this ability is a free action. As long as the target remains within 1 mile of you, you always know the direction and approximate distance to it. If the foe has any weaknesses or vulnerabilities (including a mythic flaw), you immediately know this information. You can maintain this connection with only one creature at a time; if you use this ability on another creature, your connection with the previous creature is lost.

How exactly does it work or what limits are there to this ability?

The way I read it, it seems that by touching the creature I get to know everything about it?

Is this correct or am I missing something?

Once a creature is killed and not undead, do they become items?

Looking for the purpose of Shrink Item.

But also curious for future options.

What Rules or FAQs support your position?

Coming back to this now that I've learned more about the game. I still think an extra 10d6 and not having to stand toe to toe with a for is pretty clutch.

Consider having a lot of goblins attack the town again when they are in mid-fight with the sheriff. Go HAM and TPK them with thoughtful monsters or a few giants.

They could complain that you are trying to rail road them, but you are just naturally advancing the issue that they haven't taken care of.

Kill off a few and or wipe them and then ask if they want to have new heroes roll into town. Or if they want to play another module.

Thanks!

Use the pythagorean theorem. Count how many horizontal and vertical then plug in to.

a^2 + b^2 = c^2

Then round down to the nearest divisible by 5. If it's within your weapon range you hit.

Is there a range on feint?

So area just beyond bright light is dim light? Same thing for normal light (area just beyond normal light is dim light)?

Sounds wonky.

That the area "just beyond" isn't defined makes it sound fudgy.

What is the range of regular vision?

If one has a 20ft light source in a darkness area, what is the range of dim lighting after it?

Is it double the range so 40ft of dim lighting? Or just an extra 20ft?

Lastly which page or section can I find this?

Yeah I forgot weapon focus. But every class has small arms proficiency.

... I guess...

Seems redundant and a waste.

Double Tap (Combat)

Source Character Operations Manual pg. 114
You can make rapid small arm attacks to increase the effectiveness of your attacks.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (small arms), proficiency with small arms.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can take a single attack action to make a double-tap attack with a small arm. This attack gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll, and your bonus to damage from Weapon Specialization is equal to your character level (rather than half your character level). The small arm used cannot have the blast, explode, flexible line, line, unwieldy, or wide line weapon special properties, or any other property that allows it to attack multiple targets or an area in a single attack. This attack cannot benefit from the boost, guided, or variant boost weapon special properties, or any other ability or effect that is a move action and alters the effect of your attack or damage. This expends ammunition equal to two attack rolls, and if you cannot expend that ammunition, you cannot use this ability.

Why is there even a pre-requisite on this?

Versatile Specialization (Combat)

Source Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 163
You know how to get full value out of weapon types your class doesn’t normally use.

Prerequisites: Weapon Specialization, character level 3rd.

Benefit: You gain specialization (see page 243) in all weapons with which you are proficient that can be selected with Weapon Specialization.

Weapon Specialization (Combat)

Source Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 163
You know how to get the full damage out of a weapon type your class doesn’t normally use.

Prerequisites: Character level 3rd, proficiency with selected weapon type.

Benefit: Choose one weapon type (small arms, longarms, heavy weapons, etc.). You gain specialization in that weapon type, which means you add your character level to damage with the selected weapon type, or half your character level for small arms or operative melee weapons. You can never have specialization in grenades.

Why would anyone or any of the classes ever choose Weapon Specialization over Versatile?

Was looking for the answer to this and found someone asked it on reddit. Wanted to get a community's or developer's take on this with a possible FAQ.

So I stole the question word for word.

"The wording of Clever Feint

Clever Faint (Ex) [Sense-Dependent]

As a standard action, you can fake out an enemy within 60 feet, making that enemy open to your attacks. Attempt a Bluff check with the same DC as a check to feint against that enemy (though this isn’t a standard check to feint, so Improved Feint and Greater Feint don’t apply). Even if you fail, that enemy is flat-footed against your attacks (see page 276) until the end of your next turn. If you succeed, the enemy is also flat-footed against your allies’ attacks until the end of your next turn. You can’t use clever feint against a creature that lacks an Intelligence score

The wording of Flatfooted

Flat-Footed: You take a –2 penalty to AC, and you cannot take reactions or make attacks of opportunity.

Note the bolded portions above. What does Flatfooted "against my attacks" mean? Do they have the actual condition or not? Can they make AoOs against me? Can they take a reaction as long as it's triggered by someone other than the Feinter or his allies? Do we just get the advantage of -2 AC and none of the other benefits of Flatfooted?"

Yup. You are right, thanks for pointing that out. I saw a few posts where this metamagic was used to increase DC, and I was confused by the wording and what was being claimed. When instead I should have focused on actual definition of caster and spell level.

This feat is just about useless :-D

Thanks for the clarification!

Spell Specialization

Select one spell. You cast that spell with greater than normal power.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Spell Focus.

Benefit: Select one spell of a school for which you have taken the Spell Focus feat. Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.

Every time you gain an even level in the spellcasting class you chose your spell from, you can choose a new spell to replace the spell selected with this feat, and that spell becomes your specialized spell.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.

From reading a few suggestions on the internet it seems this also increases the Caster Level by two and therefore also increasing the DC of the spell? Is this correct?

The way I read this is that for spells that have level-variable effect (like damage per level, range per level, etc) it increases your level and therefore increasing the potential damage or range upto the max cap out?

The understanding of one is quite useful as it would increase DC vs spell and damage and range, etc. but on the other one it's kind of meh...

Being prone also implies that a lot of the creature’s vitals are covered by the ground. So, it’s not just that it’s a smaller target, but there are also fewer deadly places to hit.

A melee attack generally has more force, so doesn’t rely as much on hitting the “right” spot. And it can even make the hit be harder since you are getting them between the hard ground and your hard weapon.

I like this explanation the best.

Yeah, if I were shooting from a long range. Absolutely, rules accounts for range increments. However there is in the core rulebook an entry for ignoring certain cover (I believe soft cover or when shooting into melee with friendly) or AC bonuses if an enemy is bigger than the attacker. I think it was a two size difference thing. Also distance is also taken into a factor in a cover with height situation.

So RAW yeah, I think you are right. RAI should... doesn't really matter as it's not a confusion of rules. Instead it is a deficiency in the prone rules. It's like shooting someone a prone medium sized creature point blank(adjacent)... In reality there shouldn't be a penalty, as the silhouette of the person is not reduced at that point, but rules don't account for that.

Hmmm... that's a cheap way to get rid of a once per day ability.

Isn't there a famous quote that when ending a fight that a still standing enemy has a say?

Alright so if it teleported away. And out of initiative order, does that count as ending combat? Does a character defeat the encounter? Do they receive xp?

This came up one time in a game.

I think we settled for Co-Operative ally serves as a mount, with mount rules applying (concentration, attacks, etc) except when having to direct the mount which the mount could do on it's own.

For enemies, it's a grapple check.

Uh... that's an interesting tid-bit... should a dragon really get a prone bonus or penalty to AC if the target is huge compared to a human?

Very interesting philosophical / rules question...

Challenge (Ex): Once per day, a cavalier can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier’s melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier’s level. The cavalier can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every three levels beyond 1st, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

Challenging a foe requires much of the cavalier’s concentration. The cavalier takes a –2 penalty to his Armor Class, except against attacks made by the target of his challenge.

The challenge remains in effect until the target is dead or unconscious or until the combat ends. Each cavalier’s challenge also includes another effect which is listed in the section describing the cavalier’s order.

What happens when the target of a challenge teleports away? Also what happens if the challenger has ability to tell direction and distance the target went to?

1. Where the sun don't shine.

2. Something something consenting adults--*BUZZER*

Gives a whole new meaning to the "Daring" part of the title.

It's not taking away from it. It's RAW backed up by real life data.

By your measure Diehard should also prevent someone from falling asleep with a sleep spell, because he's such a hardened bad ass.

Doesn't matter how hard you train, getting knocked out is getting knocked out. Plenty of YouTube videos to prove that.

Hell, there is even some videos of guys training passing out.

Diehard makes sense as it works.

How is the sorcerer in 2e?

You can in real life knock someone out without largely hurting them.

Concussions are a real thing. So is exhaustion.

As such I would rule the opposite of the popular disagreement. Diehard does nothing for non lethal damage. Rules as worded support this stance.

Mainly just wish they'd answer questions or doubts about rules, rule conflicts, and intent in a more expedient yet well thought out manner.

I wish 2e had been a revision of the rules and perhaps better implementation much like how Starfinder reduced a lot of the feats needed to accomplish things.

Prime example... totem barbarian... Like bra... that's embarrassing.

Sanctified rogue... really +1 fort and Will, that's it no progression?

Rules for sleight of hand when it comes to surprise round actions... talk about useless.

Combination of skills like they did in Starfinder.

Background skills, reduced DC for players with Lore skills.

Sashimono or Tabard

Elephant in the room rules does a good job at handling this. Also I believe Starfinder system also addresses it.

Yeah... that's how reach works. Except whips. But, in general if you hit them at reach and then they 5-foot step into your space, you can acrobatics away. Either way, they are not attacking your buddy.

With Spring Attack and Skirmisher, this becomes even more deadlier, as you can basically spring attack 15-feet in, SNEAK ATTACK, Spring out 15-feet. At a minimum that is Spear Damage + Dex Damage + SA Damage. That's not including any extra damage you get from magical weapons and other mythical stuff. That might not sound like a lot but at lvl 10, that's 5d6 on SA alone. 5-30 Dmg Avg 15 Damage. You add two hand damage using Dex that's another 6. PALTRY damage when compared to barbarian or other classes. But this is worse case scenario. But your strength will be your utility. Preventing damage to your comrades, giving flat footed condition, restricting mobility. Taking AoOs… there is so much you can do and specialize in... that will be upto you. If you want to take lunge... you can. But mythic has something that increases your AoO range. You pair that up with Bodyguard or Standstill... It's options you have available.

I didn't finish the build because ultimately you by the time you reach lvl 8, you will probably have a better idea or direction that you will want to go in.

Unchained Rogue w/Scout Archetype

+0 Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Branched Spear
+1 Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick
+2 Feat: Dodge
+3 Rogue Talent: Minor Magic (Acid Splash recommended)
(5) +3 Feat: Mobility
+4 Rogue Talent: Major Magic (Shield Recommended)
+5 Feat: Spring Attack
+6 Rogue Talent: Slow Reactions/Coax Information/Bleeding Attack
+6 Feat: Greater Dirty Trick
(10)+7 Rogue Talent: Dispelling Attack
+8 Feat: Quick Dirty Trick/Superior Dirty Trick
+9 Rogue Talent
+9 Feat:
+10 Rogue Talent
(15)+11 Feat:
+12 Rogue Talent
+12 Feat:
+13 Rogue Talent
+14 Feat:
(20)+15 Rogue Talent:

Alright Senko. There is a good template for a rogue that can act as a pseudo-bodyguard, still effective in battle, smart and quick witted that is able to use the elements around him/her to outsmart, baffle, or outright annoy her enemies.

Use Debilitating Injury to great effect

Bewildered: This gives a -2 AC to your targets for all your party members. But for you it gives you -4 and gets better as you level up (-8). So it basically mitigates you not being full BAB class.

Disoriented: This gives target a -2 to hit anyone. But it gives him a -4 against YOU. So basically you just upped your AC. Goes all the way up to -8 as you level.

Hampered: This is another excellent choice. It may not sound that great, but when spring attack comes into play if the enemy can't reach you without taking a double move, or if he can only swing once instead of a full-attack... you basically are preventing damage that your healer is going to have to heal.

Acid Splash - This allows you to deal with flyers to a certain extent. Get sniper goggles for increased sneak attack range.

Shield - Extra Shield type AC which you weren't going to have anyways. So now you potentially just increased your AC by 4... plus when you put Disorented into play... now you become a little more tankier.

Those are recommended spells, some people prefer vanish and other stuff. It's your choice. The prize comes with Dispelling Attacks at level 10. Basically at will/unlimited Dispel Magic.

Dirty Trick Maneuvers to just add to the random chaos you can cause on the battlefield. It's also perfect for those few rare occasions where you will fight something that is immune to sneak attacks.

If your attack is successful, the target takes a penalty. The penalty is limited to one of the following conditions: blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened. This condition lasts for 1 round. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, the penalty lasts 1 additional round. This penalty can usually be removed if the target spends a move action. If you possess the Greater Dirty Trick feat, the penalty lasts for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 round for every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD. In addition, removing the condition requires the target to spend a standard action.

Also things to consider (Agile Maneuvers) though there is FAQs out there that state that some Combat Maneuvers can be done with Dex and Agile Maneuvers might not be required.

Underhanded Trick rogue talent gives you a few things. 1) It gives you Improved Dirty Trick. 2) At 6th level it passively counts you as having pre-requisites for Greater Dirty Trick (That is, you won't need to invest in Combat Expertise nor a 13 Int.)

Scout Archetype basically allows you to get sneak attacks off in more situations.

Charge into battle... SNEAK ATTACK! Disorient target to mitigate -2 penalty for charge. Hopefully it's dead. If not Acrobatics your way into a more favorable flank... OR CHARGE away at another enemy like a pin-ball. Most enemies won't hit you because you have reach... they usually don't. If they do, that's where Slow Reactions rogue talent comes into play.

Once Spring Attack and Skirmisher comes into play, you're basically just antagonizing the enemy into attacking you. But they won't because your basically jumping around the battle field, with your spear darting in and out hitting them where it hurts.

Anyways, let me know what you think.

Yure wrote:

(attack action stuff)

This is a very old argument--one of the oldest on the site, in fact--and it's long settled. Relitigating it now isn't likely to be constructive. Do whatever works for your table.

No, it's not.

no it states "attack" "action" not "attack action". It saying the action of attacking. Not the defined "attack action" with its own set of rules.

"(see the attack action on page 182)." CRB pg. 178

You're going to have to quote that because I don't see what section you are talking about where it defines an attack action as it own separate action.

However let me point out the Sunder combat maneuver.

Sunder

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 201
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

There we see precedence that the attack action (the action of attack) can take the place of an attack conducted during the Standard Action Attack or the Full-Round Action - Full Attack.

Therefore it highlights that the "attack action" is not a defined action, its just an action with intent to harm.

Knife Master archetype is not just about two-weapon fighting. It's just to make you do extra damage with light blades. You can as easily be flanking as easily as you can be throwing those daggers. The scout archetype just allows you to throw those daggers and get a sneak attack in. But the scout archetype is not a requirement for making the build. You can as easily, if the situation is right, do a full-round action to attack. One attack hits the foe in front of you which you could be flanking, if it finishes him off you can then throw your dagger at someone across 30ft and hopefully take him out, or disrupt their spellcasting.

As far as rogues not being well defined by the game, I don't believe that at all. As a social construct they can be just about anything effectively without giving up much in combat prowess. I like to use a portion of the core rule book description when it states; "Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, bandits and bounty hunters, and explorers and investigators all might be considered rogues, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, or luck." That is such a myriad of variations that I believe it gives the player the most flexibility in creating what they want barring a professional magic user. But even then they make GREAT UMD skill users. As far as an adventuring view, they have always been defined as the guy/gal that opens the locks and springs the traps... something that overtime has been moved away from. Which is not a bad thing per-say because some people don't want their rogues to be thieves or bandits. In Combat, their the opportunistic go lucky combatant. "FIREBALL" - Nope. "GRAPPLE" - Nope. Yeah, they aren't going to win toe to toe with a fighter, but only dorks go toe to toe with the fighter. Drop the chandelier on his arse! Or make him chase you through a ledge... or drown him. You know what happens to a full-plate fighter hen their strength score goes down? Yeah... poisons can be handy... if expensive.

Granted you're not going to be able to do all that at top effectiveness. But you're going to be able to do it all at better efficiency than the other classes that aren't supposed to do anything else.

Take fighter... yeah you can make him a party face. But at what cost? One of your stats is going to suffer because you now have to put into charisma. You have to give up a trait to make diplomacy a class skill. You're going to have to use feats to make that skill really be top notch. In the mean time... you forgot how to ride a horse... or swim... and climbing... and surviving. Things that one would think a professional soldier would do very well. One of my biggest grievances with the fighter class is that low amount of skill points they receive for what they do. Hence why I love that Starfinder condensed a lot of the skills.