Welcome back! Just wanted to reiterate Johnnycat's pointing out of the spreadsheet, it's super effective! Battlespy/Tamlakos deserves major props for setting it up :p
I started filling in the character submissions in Battlespy/Tamlakos's handy google-doc based on the last list compiled by thunderbeard. Please feel free to update your information if you've got a submission in progress. If you feel it's completed and ready for Fallen Herald to look over it, change the first column to "Yes"
I’ve always been a big fan of the mystic theurge prestige class, but thought it really fell flat in its delivery. It started up too slowly to be fun in low level games, lacked flavor in the mid-levels and essentially boiled down to a game of “How do I get 9th level casting” at high level, leaving the character feeling a tad bit un-theurge-y. I’ve spent quite a bit of time reading through the various threads discussing the issues with Mystic Theurge as well as various people’s attempts at fixing them. I even made my own attempt at a fixed prestige class, but wasn’t terribly happy with the kludges necessary to avoid having a theurge with access to 9th level spells. After fiddling around with it and playtesting my fix I eventually decided to shelve it until I could figure out a better way to fix it than a 16 level prestige class. I was at a loss for how to approach the class until the arrival of the ACG. While the book is far from perfect, it did provide something quite useful: a template for a half-caster. In ACG the half-casters (i.e. warpriest and hunter) cap out at 6th level casting. This made me wonder if a mystic theurge capped at 6th level casting could be a viable and fun hybrid to play. I spent some time working it into what I believe should be a functional and balanced hybrid, and would love some feedback on the end result. The goal of the reworked class is that it should function as a high-tier caster while doing so with the toolkit presented by 1st- to 6th-level cleric and wizard spells. A group should be able to function with a theurge playing the role of the group’s arcane or divine caster, and the theurge should be viable with a focus on blasting, control, or support, while still providing good utility. Mystic Theurge’s Schtick and Problems:
Schtick: - Access to both Divine and Arcane Spells, Lots of spell slots! - Some very limited ability to cast both simultaneously Problems: - MAD and it shows! - DCs too low to be useful for fail or save/suck control spells. - No effective way to make use of excess resources at mid- and high-levels. Introducing the Theurge as a Hybrid Class:
Abilities - 6th level cleric/wizard spell lists, separate slots for arcane and divine spells. - Twin-casting: Limited number of uses per day, cast one arcane and divine spell simultaneously as full round action. - Embrace the MADness: Benefits from both Int and Wis encourage theurges to improve both. Flexibility in which stat used to cast makes it harder to cripple casting with wis or int damage/drain. - Bonuses to DCs when Twin-Casting mean that top level theurge control spells are competitive with top level wizard spells (well, wish excluded anyway). - Flexibility use of slots: Recall or duplicate spell slots, twin-cast to burn through spells faster, burn slots on metamagic. Recall/Duplication and metamagic abilities additionally reduce the need to fill every slot, making high-level theurge’s daily spell choices less tedious overall. Limitations
Additional Flavor
Design Notes (Getting down to the Nitty Gritty):
- I spent quite a while on calculations to compare DCs between pure spell casters (cleric and wizard) against the Theurge. The goal is that at most levels the top level theurge spells should have DCs +/- 1 of a cleric or wizard while twin-casting. When not twin-casting the DCs will be 3-4 lower. This strongly encourages theurges to save twin-casting uses to deliver critical control spells instead of burning it on rapid buffing. - At low levels a theurge has ~10% more spell slots than a specialist wizard or cleric, increasing to 20% at mid-levels and 40% at high level. When weighted by spell level, the wizard comes out a few % ahead in total weighted spell slots at low levels and 10-15% in total weighted spell slots at high levels. Between the improved DCs, better action economy and slot flexibility, I’m ok with the theurge being behind 10-15% in weighted spell slots in the end. The weights used are (0.10, 0.13, 0.18, 0.24, 0.32, 0.42, 0.56, 0.75, 1.00) for 1st-9th levels respectively. It’s been a long time since I came up with those numbers, and I can’t remember my rationale other than that higher level spells are significantly more powerful than lower level ones, so I’m open to alternate weighting methods. -Twin-casting is designed to generally allow the theurge to cast two spells of his max spell level – 1 simultaneously. Assuming four 4-round fight adventuring days, the theurge should have 1-2 rounds of twin-casting per fight at low levels, increasing to 3-4 per fight at high-levels. This should roughly equate to 20-25% usage at low levels and >75% at high levels. - I’m on the edge about the fast recall/memorization and spontaneous metamagic, but feel the class needs something to help deal with its abundance of slots at high levels. The idea is to encourage flexibility (and quick spell-list selection) by trying to have the theurge keep a large supply of open slots for metamagic and re-memorization. The weakened channeling ability also addresses this by being powered off of spell slots (albeit already filled ones).
Finally, before I post the link to the PDF, kudos to all of those who have made attempts at fixing the mystic theurge. I’ve stolen liberally from you all, and if you see something that looks yours-ish, please let me know so I can give you credit. I know there were at least three full builds I cribbed from for my original prestige class remake, of which I only remember Kobold Bard’s (from the GitP forums) remake which contained the idea for twin-casting as a central ability. I’d love some feedback on the class (doubly so if someone happens to take it for a spin). If you have balance concerns, please double check the Nitty Gritty section for my reasoning before posting.
Feedback Stuff!: If you’re still reading, great! Thanks for taking the time to look through all this. I’m especially interested in the following: - Does the class deliver Mystic Theurge fun without being too fiddly or overwhelming?
Tar'jub can always sting the crew if they're in pain. The burning sensation of poison will make them totally forget whatever else they were b@!$*ing about. Also Tar'jub totally won't eat them, even if they're incapacitated by the poison. Probably.
I tend to agree with this view of fighters. Sure they've got damage at high level, but that's all they've got, and magic-users can have that and earth-shattering power. Any items or such that they use for flexibility are similarly usable by any other class. They also really lack any kind of differentiation that isn't "What kind of beat-stick am I?" Most other classes have ways to really differentiate themselves within class that don't amount to what bonus feats you've taken. Just adding 2 extra skills per level and eliminating prerequisites on feats is a pretty bland means of solving the problems with the class. The kit of fighters seems to revolve around Training. They already get Armor and Weapon Training, and they're able to retrain feats. Why not extend that idea to improve their available skills and saves and utility? Fighters would be able to start with Weapon/Armor Training and pick one of the following at 1 and again every few levels. Mental Training (Ex): Fluffy stuff. +2 Will saves, and the bonus increases by one every 6 levels. Agility Training (Ex): Fluffy stuff. +2 Reflex saves, and the bonus increases by one every 6 levels. Maneuver Training (Ex): You excel at unorthodox combat techniques and catching your foes off-guard. You gain combat expertise and may ignore the int prerequisites on any combat maneuver feats you take. Choose a combat maneuver, you gain a bonus equal to half your class level to that kind of maneuver. You may choose another maneuver to receive this bonus to for every four levels you possess. Physical Training (Ex): Along with your combat training you have worked to keep yourself in peak physical condition. You receive a bonus equal to your level in climb, swim and acrobatics (jumping only), and you can ignore the ACP for these skills from any armor that doesn't slow you down. Professional Training (Ex): Your professional background has taught you a variety of useful skills. Choose one of the following professions. You may use that profession to make skill checks in place of its associated skills. Additionally, you receive a bonus to that profession skill equal to 1/2 your class level. Profession(Mercenary) Appraise, Bluff, Intimidate
Someone better than I could probably put this together into a complete, balanced system. A lot of fighter archetype stuff could probably be boiled down into types of training that could be substituted in as well(especially since almost all fighter archetypes sacrifice Armor or Weapon Training in some fashion).
Serra grabs her greatsword again from the armory as she comes up to prepare for the apparent confrontation. When she arrives on deck, she gets a description of the situation down below from Flame. "Large Humanoids? Giants? I guess we'll need to take care of them then if we're to land here." She listens to the crew member briefly explain the procedure for leaving the ship. "Well, this will make for an interesting way to start the battle," she says to Hymn and Flame. "Before we jump..." she stops mid-sentence and begins chanting in celestial. As she does her already radiant gold irises begin to flare with divine light and halo of golden flame wreaths her head. When she finishes chanting a divine blessing washes over the three of them.
Without waiting another moment she nods at the crew member and jumps. The experience of falling such a distance is unique for Serra. As the ship disappears beyond the burning maelstrom, her entire world is reduced to the sound of rushing wind and a feeling of weightlessness. When the feather fall kicks in, even the rushing sound disappears, and for a moment it seems as if time has stopped altogether. That sensation soon goes away though as the ground comes drifting slowly up to meet her. Landing gently, she reaches back and draws her greatsword, planting it point first by her as she waits for Flame and Hymn to make it down.
Welcome aboard Charis! It'll be nice to have another melee/caster up front, as well as a wizard with a full spellbook. RVT: Everything is copacetic! Tenro: I imagine it won't ever come to blows, especially if Thoon maintains plausible deniability. I can see there being conflict later on, but I imagine it'll be something like: Everyone: "Thoon, your followers are doing horrible things in your name, stop them!" Thoon: "What? Oh really? That's terribly shocking, I'll get right on that... Will a strongly worded letter do?" Everyone: "THOOOOOOON!" Then Thoon shrugs and gives a "Why are you looking at me that way" look, the laugh-track is queued and the closing credits to this week's episode of That's Thoon! roll. :p |
