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I think it is interesting to point out that DND 5, is giving dex to damage and attack for all finesse weapons without needing a feat. I see quite a few problems with this new system, but at least they got something right. Sorcerers also do not have the level adjustment. Hint Hint Paizo

Dex as damage isn't core because it doesn't make sense. Adding dex to damage does not represent the "thousand cuts" approach to combat. That would be more like basing your number of attacks off dex.

We could base our number attacks off of dex and that would make sense, but would require more work to calculate. Everything is easier if we just give a bonus based on dex and envision multiple attacks. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it untrue. The fact is you do not need much strength to kill someone, and someone who is agile is able to land a blow in just the right place much easier then someone who is strong and clumsy.

Theres no reason a dagger should be better at sneak attack than a great axe. A great axe should maybe be harder to sneak up on someone with, but if you can sneak up on someone with a great axe, it'll be more damaging than a dagger.

If I get a knife in your back, I can twist it. You don't have that kind of control over a great axe. With a knife I can aim for more vital areas easier as it is light and small. Swinging a big axe you don't aim for small targets, you are just trying to hit the bastard. I think the problem lies with lack of imagination on your part.

If you want to simulate that feel of the rouge cutting someones throat silently from behind, then house ruling coup de graces to be easier on a sneak attack is probably what you are looking for. Also, death attack is already what you are looking for.

No, I am not talking about death attacks. I am talking about hitting windpipes, and groins. Using a clumsy great axe makes that much much harder to do.

You need str to hurt people and put them in the real world. Being very dexterous doesn't do it unless you are using weapons designed to take advantage of our anatomy and easily puncture into the squishy bits. That's why rapiers have a high crit range.

I am guessing you don't watch much martial arts. Find an 80 year old that has studied and ask him whether or not he need strength to hurt you

Actual ideas for changes to the sorcerer:

1. Bloodline spells being sub-descriptor based. Instead of giving the sorcerer a specific list of bloodline spells allow them to pick any spell that matches a specific sub-descriptor of spells one for each spell level. For example the fire elemental bloodline might be allowed to pick any fire type spell where a celestial bloodline could pick any spell with the good type. You can easily throw a 'default to the highest spell level or when your class would normally get that spell if it is on your list' line if you are worried about them getting spells earlier than normal. Also it gives them a bit of something to make them different and stay current when new spells come out in new books.

2. A few choices for each bloodline power. Look some people want claws for their bloodlines and some people want rays. We could make these sorts of powers "generic choices" for the sorcerer and then have other specific choices come out of the bloodlines themselves. Having an 'either/or' would allow for more variety in the bloodlines and allow for some basic default choices that every sorcerer could fall back on.

3. Updated bonus feat list. Part of what makes the wizard always be timely is the fact that he has bonus feat types instead of a single list of bonus feats. You don't have to create a bunch of new stuff specifically for the wizard because the base class gives you the chance to simply pick up new stuff as a normal class feature. If the sorcerer bonus feats for the bloodlines were tied to a theme or general category of feats then when new material comes out you wouldn't have to think about, "wow these dragon type feats should be available to the dragon bloodline sorcerer -- wish they had come out when that bloodline was made." This really applies to the bloodline spells too -- it's beyond ridiculous that dragon bloodline sorcerer doesn't have dragon's breath as a bonus spell known.

4. Increase their skill points -- I don't...

5. Allow them to swap out one of their spells every level. This way they can choose their bloodline a level early, and then swap it for another spell when they get their bloodline.

6. Change the human's favored class option to 1/2 a spell every level. 1 new spell known per level is too much and puts too much pressure on players to pick human.

Are you really blinded to the fact that this feat would be completely OPed? I mean would you be killed by someone using their agility or by someone using their strength? I mean if you were getting stabbed by a scrawny person, wouldn't you take barely any damage, compared too a strong guy, whom would probably kill you with that blow? I mean, isn't that the point of strength? Weapon finesse makes some sense, as you wouldn't need much strength to carry a knife, but it would to carry a 5 foot sword now, wouldn't it?

I would rather get hit by a half orc then Bruce Lee.

Melkiador wrote:

If dexterity can steal strength's things should the opposite be true? A feat to apply strength to AC? Strength to reflex save?

I think this person hit it on the head why they havent and may not create that. Agility already has alot of purposes and this would put the nail on using strength for many builds.

This is a fantasy game and most people want to role play out character ideas. A dex based fighter is a pretty common idea. When we start building these characters and find ourselves feat starved and ineffective it spoils the experience. I understand that there are many uses for dex and not many for strength, but that doesn't change the fact that dex based fighters are not effective. Even with this feat TWF dex fighters will find themselves outshined by the strength based two handed fighters. That is fact, and that should be remedied.

I don't think you understood a thing I said.

Dervish Dance is done with a scimitar because it's an extremely specific setting feat for a specific god and fighting style released in a softcover (where they take more liberties with the design process).

I don't care about that. I care about flavor for my game. Before this new book came out I had to make a scimitar wielding character if I wanted to make a viable dex based character. That removes alot of flavor without any rhyme or reason. A rapier is an almost identical weapon, allowing the feat to work with rapiers wouldn't make the feat any more powerful (assuming the character had to choose one). In fact there isn't a martial light weapon out there that is better then the scimitar, they are all about the same. My problem is the flavor removed from the game.

Slashing Grace doesn't actually let you use Dex to attack (just damage) unless you have some other feature that gives it to you.

Think before posting please. Both feats require weapon finesse and as a result Dervish Dance doesn't really allow you to add dex to attack either (unless you are getting it without the preqs due to a class bonus).

Fencing Grace only works with the rapier.

So between all of those your only choices that work with weapon finesse natively are scimitar, whip, and rapier.

Agile is also from a softcover but does exactly what you seem to want (dex to damage with finessable weapons). Is there something wrong with it?

Why are you telling me what I already know?

Your proposed Improved Weapon Finesse is certainly more powerful than the currently available options. Whether it's "overpowered" depends on the group and GM.

Not my feat. This has been a known homebrewed feat for quite some time now.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss whether or not this feat should be core, and why someone would think this shouldn't be included.

Also, maximizing damage with daggers/kukris is... 4? 3 if you're small. I mean, is the extra 1.5/1 damage (on average) really worth it? Weapon Specialization is +2 and stacks with rolling well.

Why? To bring the game further into reality. Rogues can sneak attack with great axes just as easily as a dagger. There is something wrong with that. There should be something that makes daggers significantly better for rogues without requiring a archtype.

edit: I am thinking making sneak attack use D2s for heavy weapons and d8s for daggers. D6 or D4s for everything in between.

Obviously you don't want to overdo it, but it can be a valid tactical option depending on your goals. Heck, I've stolen spellbooks (of bad guys) as a PC. I wanted the spells in the book and didn't have any real reason to kill the wizard.

If you steal my spell book, you better kill me. If you don't I will find you and I will hurt you real bad. I think almost every other wizard is with me on this. I think just telling other wizards what some punk rogue did to him would be enough to get them to help you.