First Impressions Thread


Biohacker

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

So I already pointed this out on facebook but...Biohacker is going to lead to a lot of plot hooks after every tiny injection leads to a mutant rage virus or rampaging dinosaurs or giant ants. I love this Class because it could've been "Alchemists IN SPAAACE" but it's not. It's very different and distinct.


It has some of the alchemist flavor but it seems very nicely its own thing which is a tricky line for them to walk. The whole line of injection weapons is a pretty interesting niche that nobody else can really effectively utilize so pretty nice to have a class that can really make those shine.

Also lots of good options of if you want to be more heal your party oriented or are more focused on debilitating your opponents or some combination of all of them. Nice way to go more mad scientist to new planet explorer with the kit as well. I can see a bio hacker being REALLY welcomed on colony worlds somebody who can on the fly help identify and treat new poisons/diseases or things like do fast modifications to explore some alien environment.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Hot take #1:

Biohacker Injection Expert class feature wrote:
(...) When you hit an ally with a weapon that has the injection weapon special property, you can choose not to deal damage to that ally, though that ally is still affected by the effects of the drug (...)

This should have just been a baseline update of weapons with the injection property, rather than a class feature. When the CRB came out, injection weapons with healing serums loaded in them often awkwardly dealt more damage to your allies than they healed, and there were quite a few people unhappy that the style of play was unavailable. Now, we have a class to do just that, but everyone else is still left with the old unintuitive damage eclipses healing situation.


That stopped being a major issue when Armory included a zero damage injection rifle though.

I've been meaning to build a character around Injection weapons, this finally put the pieces in place for me. I'm very happy with what I've built, though I really wanna see it in action.

Sovereign Court

I really like this class and would have fit my astrazoan scientist looking to make himself better a lot nicer than the envoy class. That campaign has ended unfortunately. I do like that there is another stamina heal option here too.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Osharu Biohacker is my new thing. Those poor slug faced scientists are just trying to help.


I'm really liking the BioHacker from what I've seen. I built one to the same level as my current Exo-Mechanic and asked if I could swap them out for our gaming session coming up this weekend.

Looks like damage will be lower, AC will be a bit lower without heavy armor and Computers and Engineering won't be as sky high. Hit bonus is about the same, with more skills. The Genetics Counteragent is a big boost to party damage if you can make a creature vulnerable to the party's favorite energy type.

Looking forward to trying it out.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Had a read through the Biohacker with a view to play it over the weekend. I’ll fill the survey in when I’ve played but in terms of initial thoughts:

The Instinctive option under Scientific Method looks weaker than the Studious option. Instinctive allows you to use wisdom instead of intelligence on three skills (Life Sciences, Physical Sciences and Medicine); Studious allows you to use intelligence instead of wisdom on two skills (Perception and Sense Motive) and also allows you to use Intelligence for Wisdom saves.

This seems a little uneven and I don’t think the Instinctive Option for Spark of Ingenuity is significantly better (If at all) than the Studious one to make up for this. Not sure how to address it, maybe allow Instinctive Biohackers to use Wisdom to determine bonus skills per level? They require less time to study and learn activities, because there instincts are so keen they have a sixth sense when understanding how something works (Other Justifications are available).

The other initial thought is that something linked to polymorph (Maybe as a field of study) would seem a natural fit for the class but currently isn’t an option.

It’s also going to need some higher level injection weapons to enable it to install level appropriate infusions but I’m going to assume they will be in the equipment section of the new book.

Everything else seems fine on an initial look.


Cellion wrote:

Hot take #1:

Biohacker Injection Expert class feature wrote:
(...) When you hit an ally with a weapon that has the injection weapon special property, you can choose not to deal damage to that ally, though that ally is still affected by the effects of the drug (...)
This should have just been a baseline update of weapons with the injection property, rather than a class feature. When the CRB came out, injection weapons with healing serums loaded in them often awkwardly dealt more damage to your allies than they healed, and there were quite a few people unhappy that the style of play was unavailable. Now, we have a class to do just that, but everyone else is still left with the old unintuitive damage eclipses healing situation.

I agree although the armory also brought out a sniper class injection rifle that causes no damage at all to anything so is purely a method of transmitting injections. One other option if they don't want to make it baseline is just make a range of pistols work in a similar way to the armory sniper rifles. Don't do any direct damage at all simply a way to ranged deliver an injection and also are subtle so hard to spot them firing cover. So this would give biohackers the advantage of using this option with needle weapons that actually do damage so they have better control over those tools and could use one as their primary weapon where non specialized people would not.

This is one reason while I really loved the idea of the injection weapons overall they just were not workable with existing characters. Hard to load them quickly enough in combat with specific payload and expensive to buy serums to put into something that could miss.

Biohacker gets the tools to use these weapons effectively. Its pretty easy to get a +3 insight bonus to hit allies/treat them as flat footed and some build in + to hit as they level. This means they should be pretty well able to apply their payloads to help people who are directly in combat reasonably effectively.


Vaellen wrote:

I'm really liking the BioHacker from what I've seen. I built one to the same level as my current Exo-Mechanic and asked if I could swap them out for our gaming session coming up this weekend.

Looks like damage will be lower, AC will be a bit lower without heavy armor and Computers and Engineering won't be as sky high. Hit bonus is about the same, with more skills. The Genetics Counteragent is a big boost to party damage if you can make a creature vulnerable to the party's favorite energy type.

Looking forward to trying it out.

I am also curious how a biohacker compares to a exo mechanic. At a glance my gut tells me they are probably trading pure damage and some durability for a lot of combat team support offensively and defensively. The fact they can get the ability to use their full level bonus to injection weapons as an option does help keep their raw damage in a better place than it may otherwise be.


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Helvellyn wrote:
Not sure how to address it, maybe allow Instinctive Biohackers to use Wisdom to determine bonus skills per level?

I was going to create a whole new topic just to propose this.

While INT biohackers can pretty much discard WIS (perception + will is a beast), WIS biohackers still need INT or they'll be lacking in skill points.

Spark of ingenuity also seems to benefit INT biohackers, with the "use one get one free" injection, but in a conditions-heavy campaign the WIS biohacker might have a leg up.


Starfinder Superscriber

Is there a reason this class didn't get a class based Insight bonus to any skills?

I mean, I'm not sure flavor wise they'd get one where the bonus is 'necessary', but it seems odd that they're in the same boat as soldiers on this.


pithica42 wrote:

Is there a reason this class didn't get a class based Insight bonus to any skills?

I mean, I'm not sure flavor wise they'd get one where the bonus is 'necessary', but it seems odd that they're in the same boat as soldiers on this.

Probably because the restorative gives +2 enhancement to all skills, including for allies. They pay for it by not having their own insight bonus. And if they did, it would probably be medicine (only useful at low levels, when the bonus isn't high) and life science (too useful for identifying All The Living Things with their Custom Scanner).

As it is, they can take skill focus/synergy for insight bonuses of their choice (and front load them rather than wait for natural growth to the +2/3 level) and put an additional +2 enhancement on them as needed. That's plenty of skill power and especially versatility.


The Ragi wrote:
Helvellyn wrote:
Not sure how to address it, maybe allow Instinctive Biohackers to use Wisdom to determine bonus skills per level?

I was going to create a whole new topic just to propose this.

While INT biohackers can pretty much discard WIS (perception + will is a beast), WIS biohackers still need INT or they'll be lacking in skill points.

Spark of ingenuity also seems to benefit INT biohackers, with the "use one get one free" injection, but in a conditions-heavy campaign the WIS biohacker might have a leg up.

And giving a wis person the skills per level instead of using int for that seems at least mostly comparable to being able to totally ditch wisdom and use int for your will saves and perception. Worth testing but I think the intuitive ones need a smidge more skill wise. As long as it is use will in place of int you don't have to worry about somebody doubling up on skill gains.

Scarab Sages

So I’ve wanted a class like this ever since the core book came out. Specifically I said I wanted something that felt like the medical smuggler from Star Wars: The Old Republic. A field medic, super science based support class.

Thing is, I dunno, I think they need something to make them work. Admittedly, I’ve only gotten a quick run-through, and certainly haven’t played one yet, but, well, I feel they just don’t stack up to the other classes.

Out-of-the-box, they can’t out combat a soldier or solarian (no surprise) or an Exocortex mechanic (What with their longarm proficiency) or a drone mechanic (up to 3 attacks a round) or a Technomancer (damaging spells) or an operative (trick attack).

They certainly can’t heal as well as a mystic (from what I saw, their only means of healing is shooting people with healing serums, which cost money, or taking the one lvl 2 breakthrough that is very limited and heals very little).

And their buffs/rebuffs, while nice, are limited uses per day, which just isn’t as good as an envoy.

Look, I’m not expecting these guys to beat out another class at their own thing, but I would like to see them compersble at some things. As it stands they have the combat ability of mystics and envoys without the healing ability/spells or the unlimited buffs/debuffs a day.

I do realize that they can heal at range, but that requires an attack roll, money (that is wasted if you miss) and prep (as you need to have an injection weapon ready and loaded with healing serum.). Great if you are a Kasatha or Skittermander (or Kishalee?), and have arms to spare, not so great if you are something else.

Honestly, I just feel it needs something to bring it on par. A breakthrough that makes all restorative heal a bit? More longarm injection weapons and longarm proficiency? Ability to make X number of healing serums/day for free that only you can use and go inert after 24 hours (like a bombard’s grenade?). Something. I dunno, maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree here, but it just seems they need a boost to put them on par.


Starfinder Superscriber

At level 4, Field Dressing is essentially 3-5 free Mk1 Healing Serum's a day (only better, the average is higher). Even at level 2, you can potentially meet the average a healing serum would give. I wouldn't call that 'very limited'. It certainly isn't as good as a healer mystic, but it's actually pretty close to what my star shaman mystic could do at that level.

They have a level 8 ability that gives them full weapon spec on small arms. That means after that point, they're probably around 85-90% of longarm DPR with a small arm (as opposed to ~70%), which is pretty useful combat wise.

Even just being able to switch out Wis for Int on saves/perception/sense motive is pretty amazing.

They're definitely complicated. I spent about 3 hours this morning reading and re-reading the entry trying to wrap my brain around all this. I expect I'll need to play one or see one played or read a guide before I grok it. The Debuffs look on par or better than an envoy though, and other than wishing there were an insight bonus to a couple skills somewhere, I don't see much I'd want to improve. In fact, I expect I'll be asking for a nerf bat once I see it play out.

I don't know that I'd want to waste healing potions shooting them at friends in combat. Maybe in an emergency, but even when I play actual healers I tend to not heal in combat unless I have to.

The injections are useful and already have some nifty combos, and debuffing things AC or to hit bonuses, or DR/ER is pretty dang useful right off the rip, especially since you can do that *and* damage at the same time. If you reduce their AC by 3 (fatigued + AC reducer), that's already the same as Get'em + Clever feint. It likely hits less often than Envoy abilities, but you're doing damage at the same time, which Envoys can't do til, what 4 or 6? If the Envoy also applies flat-footed/get 'em, that's a 30% increase in hits and a significant boost to party DPR, even if you're adding only a tiny bit with your own weapon.

Anyway, that's just my first impression after reading it and making a level 4 character for the playtest.


VampByDay wrote:

So I’ve wanted a class like this ever since the core book came out. Specifically I said I wanted something that felt like the medical smuggler from Star Wars: The Old Republic. A field medic, super science based support class.

Thing is, I dunno, I think they need something to make them work. Admittedly, I’ve only gotten a quick run-through, and certainly haven’t played one yet, but, well, I feel they just don’t stack up to the other classes.

Out-of-the-box, they can’t out combat a soldier or solarian (no surprise) or an Exocortex mechanic (What with their longarm proficiency) or a drone mechanic (up to 3 attacks a round) or a Technomancer (damaging spells) or an operative (trick attack).

They certainly can’t heal as well as a mystic (from what I saw, their only means of healing is shooting people with healing serums, which cost money, or taking the one lvl 2 breakthrough that is very limited and heals very little).

And their buffs/rebuffs, while nice, are limited uses per day, which just isn’t as good as an envoy.

Look, I’m not expecting these guys to beat out another class at their own thing, but I would like to see them compersble at some things. As it stands they have the combat ability of mystics and envoys without the healing ability/spells or the unlimited buffs/debuffs a day.

Their debuffs are stronger (auto sicken, confusion, or vulnerability to an element are all crazy as field of study options) and more unique. Some mystics can sicken, but the targets gets a save to avoid (the biohacker does have to hit, of course) and only once per day per target. No one can boost energy damage by 50% across the party, or inflict a no save confusion effect (with decent duration) on anything you hit. If you're Studious (you're going to be Studious) you can also double up one of these effects with the basic -2 to AC or reduce DR/ER counteragents once per day.

The restoratives are great for skill boosts on important checks, or if you pick one of the primary offensive field of study options above you can get blindsense, or impose a -2 to melee attackers trying to hit you. (The confusion effect just comes with bleed negation, which is admittedly weak.)

The number of uses per day is maybe tight, given that you're going to miss with some of your shots. But with the potential to pretty reliably seriously nerf single tough opponents, maybe that's ok.


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Also I think one reason they don't have any insight bonus to start is if they really are doing something they want to make sure they succeed at or is challenging they can bamf themself with a +2 enhancement bonus or do the same to a party member trying a skill they are already really good at. Bamf somebody with that then aid other and you can stack some pretty impressive bonuses to succeed.


Also I think the daily uses is going to be the balance point. You would not want to slather up every target you encounter with your bigger stuff simply because you would run out too fast. But for harder targets its nice to have the option and otherwise you can buff your own party members which lasts longer.

As for hitting they by default get +1 and then more as they level AND treat allies as flat footed so right off the bat they get some pretty huge bonuses to hit their own party members at a range with the good stuff. Add in the hack that gives them +3 to hit allies and only if the RNG god is very angry at you should you miss applying stuff to allies. Ironically though your party tank soldier/vanguard is going to be the hardest to apply things too remotely. Prebuffing when they are adjacent may be ideal for those. Like hit them up with the toxin "restorative" which skunks them and gives anybody in melee trying to hit them -2 to hit and then let them charge into battle.


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Pathfinder Tales Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:

Probably because the restorative gives +2 enhancement to all skills, including for allies. They pay for it by not having their own insight bonus. And if they did, it would probably be medicine (only useful at low levels, when the bonus isn't high) and life science (too useful for identifying All The Living Things with their Custom Scanner).

As it is, they can take skill focus/synergy for insight bonuses of their choice (and front load them rather than wait for natural growth to the +2/3 level) and put an additional +2 enhancement on them as needed. That's plenty of skill power and especially versatility.

Their +2 enhancement will get them through the lower levels, sure. But the other classes eventually get the following:

Envoy - Expertise +1d8+4 to 6 skills (chosen from subset)
Mechanic - Bypass +6 to Engineering/Computers
Mystic - Channel Skill +7 to their connection's 2 skills
Operative - Operative's Edge +6 to all skills
Solarion - Sidereal Influence +1d6 to 6 skills (but only 3 at a time)
Soldier - Nothing
Technomancers - Techlore +6 Mysticism/Computers
Vanguard - Aspect Insight +2 to 2 skills (through Aspects)
Witchwarper - Compound Sight +6 to any 2 chosen skills

This means a Biohacker will never be able to compete with any of the skill classes on their respective bonus skills once we hit the mid levels and beyond.
Yes, for Int skills, they'll be good versus the other classes that don't have Int as a Key ability score, but that doesn't alleviate the difference with Mechanics and Technomancers. And we know, nobody's touching the Operative on skills anyway.

While their Enhancement bonus is definitely more flexible, and can be given to others (amazing!), it's limited uses per day.

Not saying this is necessarily a detriment to the class, they'll have almost as many skill ranks as an Operative, and good flexibility. It is however, a divergence from the way all other non-Soldier classes in Starfinder have been presented.


A biohacker can build himself to provide a +5 (+3 in insight from skill focus, +2 enhancement from restorative) in any skill. Yes, +2 of that is limited, but it's still a lot of flexibility that other classes don't have on their own. I don't see them getting their own insight bonuses and keeping that skill booster restorative. Since any insight bonuses are likely to be entirely irrelevant to starship combat and largely irrelevant to normal gameplay, I'd rather keep the restorative and either boost allies or depend on some feat investment if you want to be exceptional at any particular thing.

Also note that the biohacker gets eight(!) class skills of its 12 (not counting profession) that key off its key ability score. If it chooses intelligence it can easily invest in all of those and probably will, beating everyone who doesn't have an insight bonus in perception (not a priority attribute for operatives, and most mystics don't have it as a connection skill), sense motive (same) and the wealth of knowledge and tech skills that few but mechanics and technomancers can cover, and they won't have Culture. Even Mysticism is partly covered for by the Custom Scanner skill substitution for identifying creatures. It might be asking too much to get built in insight bonuses on top of that and a floating (if limited) +2 enhancement you can give yourself.

Scarab Sages

Xenocrat wrote:


Their debuffs are stronger (auto sicken, confusion, or vulnerability to an element are all crazy as field of study options) and more unique. Some mystics can sicken, but the targets gets a save to avoid (the biohacker does have to hit, of course) and only once per day per target. No one can boost energy damage by 50% across the party, or inflict a no save confusion effect (with decent duration) on anything you hit. If you're Studious (you're going to be Studious) you can also double up one of these effects with the basic -2 to AC or reduce DR/ER counteragents once per day.

The restoratives are great for skill boosts on important checks, or if you pick one of the primary...

Having read through it a bit more, I’m coming around, but I still feel like they could use a boost.

A lot of the things you bring up are valid, but lacking contex. Sure, they CAN get a theorem that lets them deal full level to damage with small arms, but that comes almost halfway through their career, and they may instead want to grab the one that lets them hand off injections or increase their range. Or to be able to effect non-living things.

And the superserum is just worse versions of what others can get. We can raise the dead at 20? Mystic gets it at 13. An get rid of ability score damage/drain? Mystic can do that at 10. Do a boatload of damage? Soldier does that kind of damage from a full attack. Plus NONE of the other injections do anything like this (bring back the dead, heal ability score damage/drain, deal damage). A capstone should be an ability that builds on a class’s abilities, not give them new ones.

I would say, automatically get Arms expert at, like, five maybe. Have an 8th lvl theorem that heals ability score damage/drain (not a lot mind you, like 1d6 damage or 1 drain). Maybe add Improved field dressing theorem that increases the number of times you can field dressing a day.

Tweaks and pushes to bring it in line with the power levels of the other classes.

Also: to address your post about skills-Biohackers can’t juice themselves for skillchecks in starship combat-I believe. Not to mention it’s never been stated if a starship round is equal to a normal combat round, so no telling if durations would work.


I see no reason a biohacker should be any better at starship combat than a soldier or solarian. None of the relevant skills are thematic to them.


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I was pretty let down to see that the biohacker equivalent of the technomancer's "magic hack" was "biohacker theorem" instead of "life hack".


VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:


Their debuffs are stronger (auto sicken, confusion, or vulnerability to an element are all crazy as field of study options) and more unique. Some mystics can sicken, but the targets gets a save to avoid (the biohacker does have to hit, of course) and only once per day per target. No one can boost energy damage by 50% across the party, or inflict a no save confusion effect (with decent duration) on anything you hit. If you're Studious (you're going to be Studious) you can also double up one of these effects with the basic -2 to AC or reduce DR/ER counteragents once per day.

The restoratives are great for skill boosts on important checks, or if you pick one of the primary...

Having read through it a bit more, I’m coming around, but I still feel like they could use a boost.

A lot of the things you bring up are valid, but lacking contex. Sure, they CAN get a theorem that lets them deal full level to damage with small arms, but that comes almost halfway through their career, and they may instead want to grab the one that lets them hand off injections or increase their range. Or to be able to effect non-living things.

And the superserum is just worse versions of what others can get. We can raise the dead at 20? Mystic gets it at 13. An get rid of ability score damage/drain? Mystic can do that at 10. Do a boatload of damage? Soldier does that kind of damage from a full attack. Plus NONE of the other injections do anything like this (bring back the dead, heal ability score damage/drain, deal damage). A capstone should be an ability that builds on a class’s abilities, not give them new ones.

I would say, automatically get Arms expert at, like, five maybe. Have an 8th lvl theorem that heals ability score damage/drain (not a lot mind you, like 1d6 damage or 1 drain). Maybe add Improved field dressing theorem that increases the number of times you can field dressing a day.

Tweaks and pushes to bring it in line with the power levels of the other classes.

Also:...

One thing to note when using injection weapons they get a default +1 to hit at 1st level that improves up to +2 at level 9 so with those kinds of weapons I think that would let them hang in there vs the cortex pretty well at least hitting their targets. They are not I think going to be a primary damage dealer for the group but they are if they spec for it pretty accurate and their damage is better than most other small arms users.

Also if you went a melee build there is a melee ice knife injection weapon that is an advanced melee weapon and scales as such damage wise. So a melee biohacker could actually do really good damage with that item.

The Exchange

Is it me or did anyone else expect the class to be able to "mega man" abilities from alien species and graft it onto themselves for short periods?


So my 2 cents based on what I've read so far.

1. Int based over Wis based by far. You get more skills, Most of your skills are int based anyway, you add your Int bonus to all of your wisdom based class skills and your Will saves.
While Wis focused gets a bonus to some of your int skills. Spark of Ingenuity doesn't seem to be a deciding factor.

2. Injection Expert giving you the Weapon Focus effect while stacking with Weapon Focus is probably not intended.

I am amused at the combat options available. Sample build.
Level 9 with 22 Int and 20 Dex due to a Mark 1 and Mark 2 augment.

Using Conserving Injector Pistol, Poacher (2d6 dmg ammo/usage 21/1 range 60)
BAB of +6, Injection Expert +2, Weapon Focus +2, Dex +5.

So +15 to hit.

Painful Injection adds 3 damage and Arms Expert adds your full level instead of half your level to damage.
So +15 to hit for 2d6 +12 dmg and a debuff of your choice with no save.
If you miss the Conserving kicks in and you keep the injection dart.

Actually, That isn't that great really. 20 damage on top of debuffs is nice and all but at that tier you are facing enemies with 100+ health.

3. Your scanner can be put pretty much anywhere on or in your body but counts as a basic medkit. I have no idea how you are storing bandages in say your eyes. If it is in your lungs do you treat deadly wounds via heavy breathing?

4. While they get a lot of skills. Studious anyway. I agree they are not actually good at any of them. A bonus to Life Science and/or Physical Science seems in order. Sure it makes their scanner better but they have to spend a move action and for most of their career be relatively close to do it.

5. Counteragents seem much better then Restoratives. Best Counteragents: All of the basic ones are good, Sicken, Fatigued, Off-Target, Confused.
Best Restoratives: +2 enhancement bonus to skills, Blindsense 30ft, melee enemies get -2 to hit them.

It is a shame that the only field of study with an entry on both lists, Toxicology, is a poison effect.

I'll have more when I actually play one but that won't be until the day before the playtest ends.


I'm not really qualified to judge the Biohacker on a mechanical level.

But as I was reading over the lore and the classes abilities I just kept asking myself...why isn't the Biohacker the Alchemist but in future?

Thematically and mechanically the class is clearly inspired by Pathfinder's Alchemist.

I get that they wanted another "pure tech" class, why not go an with Inventor/Gadetteer that's archetype even older than the Mad Biological Engineer.


Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
I get that they wanted another "pure tech" class, why not go an with Inventor/Gadetteer that's archetype even older than the Mad Biological Engineer.

I'd bet money (if it was legal in my country) that the mechanic gets some expansions to also become an organic (or cyborg) pet class and a gadgeteer of sorts in the Characters Operations Manual.


The Ragi wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
I get that they wanted another "pure tech" class, why not go an with Inventor/Gadetteer that's archetype even older than the Mad Biological Engineer.
I'd bet money (if it was legal in my country) that the mechanic gets some expansions to also become an organic (or cyborg) pet class and a gadgeteer of sorts in the Characters Operations Manual.

I agree. I think the gadgeter or tinkerer/inventor is supposed to be the mechanic. For this one they really went for the chemist/farmacist (so yes alchemist) of the future.

Of the three new classes this is the one that I am less excited about, although I may change my mind after I have played it!

However...I can't stop wondering what classes didn't make it, to leave room for this one heheh


LotsOfLore wrote:
The Ragi wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
I get that they wanted another "pure tech" class, why not go an with Inventor/Gadetteer that's archetype even older than the Mad Biological Engineer.
I'd bet money (if it was legal in my country) that the mechanic gets some expansions to also become an organic (or cyborg) pet class and a gadgeteer of sorts in the Characters Operations Manual.

I agree. I think the gadgeter or tinkerer/inventor is supposed to be the mechanic. For this one they really went for the chemist/farmacist (so yes alchemist) of the future.

Of the three new classes this is the one that I am less excited about, although I may change my mind after I have played it!

However...I can't stop wondering what classes didn't make it, to leave room for this one heheh

Interesting. I found the Biohacker the only class that jumped out at me as looking really fun.

The Witchwarper is a cha caster which isn't a great casting stat. The warp reality ability is nice flavor but doesn't seem to do much until you reach high levels. Maybe it's been the people I play with but I haven't been impressed by Starfinder's casters.

I'll have to build a test Vanguard or two since I don't "get" the class. Without some testing I don't see how it occupies a space that's much different than the Solarian.

It's nice to see that different new classes appeal to different people.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
LotsOfLore wrote:


However...I can't stop wondering what classes didn't make it, to leave room for this one heheh

I am actually excited for these three classes but I admit that I stay awake at night wondering what was on that cutting room floor...

Shadow Lodge

the lack of a non level 1 needle rifle is whats bothering me about this class. As it is I can use my signature weapon on allies OR enemies but i need to switch between them if i want to do any actual damage.

Like the envoy, this classes buffs are good but not so good that standing in the back and doing nothing else makes you a functional character. You're going to have to hit someone. That means longarms.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

the lack of a non level 1 needle rifle is whats bothering me about this class. As it is I can use my signature weapon on allies OR enemies but i need to switch between them if i want to do any actual damage.

Like the envoy, this classes buffs are good but not so good that standing in the back and doing nothing else makes you a functional character. You're going to have to hit someone. That means longarms.

They're likely to publish some in the finished book.


I think so, too.

Shadow Lodge

Would it be wrong to reflavor the shiurken as medical needles and paint bullseyes on the parties butts?

Paizo Employee Starfinder Design Lead

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Bigguyinblack wrote:
2. Injection Expert giving you the Weapon Focus effect while stacking with Weapon Focus is probably not intended.

It was intended.


LotsOfLore wrote:
The Ragi wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
I get that they wanted another "pure tech" class, why not go an with Inventor/Gadetteer that's archetype even older than the Mad Biological Engineer.
I'd bet money (if it was legal in my country) that the mechanic gets some expansions to also become an organic (or cyborg) pet class and a gadgeteer of sorts in the Characters Operations Manual.

I agree. I think the gadgeter or tinkerer/inventor is supposed to be the mechanic. For this one they really went for the chemist/farmacist (so yes alchemist) of the future.

Of the three new classes this is the one that I am less excited about, although I may change my mind after I have played it!

However...I can't stop wondering what classes didn't make it, to leave room for this one heheh

The Mechanic is a Technician and or Hacker, but they're not an Artificer/Inventor the guy with a gadget or device for every situation.

An Artificer-Gadgeteer needs to be firmly magitech if not pure tech. In terms of game mechanics they need to work almost like the Wizard class.
Artificer-Gadgeteer knows a number of schematics based on level and Intelligence score.

The schematics represents the gadgets that they can "reliably build".
Based on Intelligence,level, money and perhaps a unique resource like Genius points, an Artificer-Gadgeteer can create a number of devices per-day.

Gadgets unlike spells can be stockpiled for later use, as well as simply given to other character to uses. Using Gadgets requires no skill check or special abilities.

At least once per day, a Artificer-Gadgeteer can quick build something without needing "prep-time".

An Artificer-Gadgeteer, can through sheer power of their Sublime-Madness attempt to improvise a gadget that they do not possess a schematic for. This should be usable about once per-day.

The Gadgets themselves are either single use, have a fixed number of uses, expire quickly for example super-drugs made through mad alchemy.

There must be a class ability, feat, or archetype, that allows some of the Gadgets to be made longer lasting if not permanent.

Gadgets cannot be made or duplicated by anyone but another Artifice-Gadgeteer.


I'm currently designing my Biohacker, but I have a "build" issue, I wanted to put here. At first glance, Strength/Dexterity looks more important than Intelligence/Wisdom. As you need to hit (even your allies) to use an Injection.
I find that weird. I would prefer to build my Biohacker with Intelligence/Wisdom as main attribute, and having a little bit of Dexterity/Strength, not the other way around.

Do you have the same impression?

Shadow Lodge

SuperBidi wrote:

I'm currently designing my Biohacker, but I have a "build" issue, I wanted to put here. At first glance, Strength/Dexterity looks more important than Intelligence/Wisdom. As you need to hit (even your allies) to use an Injection.

I find that weird. I would prefer to build my Biohacker with Intelligence/Wisdom as main attribute, and having a little bit of Dexterity/Strength, not the other way around.

Do you have the same impression?

Definitely. On the other hand, I think Int is a more useful secondary atribute than the "main" attribute is on a lot of starfinder classes.

I get this impression to a larger degree from a lot of starfinder classes. The main stat doesn't do much for you, and what it does do for you is easy to get another way. Meanwhile hit is HARD to come by. So While making my biohacker I have dex pumped to the max and int pumped almost as hard, since it DOES to a lot.

Shadow Lodge

I may be changing my mind about the longarms. you can two gun your way through a fight using one gun to shoot the bad guys and the other to heal your friends (just don't get them mixed up). Multiweapon fighting is great for that...


BigNorseWolf wrote:


I get this impression to a larger degree from a lot of starfinder classes. The main stat doesn't do much for you, and what it does do for you is easy to get another way. Meanwhile hit is HARD to come by. So While making my biohacker I have dex pumped to the max and int pumped almost as hard, since it DOES to a lot.

The difference I see with other classes is that you can't build a Biohacker ignoring Dexterity and Strength. When many classes have low Dexterity/Strength builds which are perfectly valid. Of course I don't speak of the Strength/Dexterity based classes.

Shadow Lodge

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SuperBidi wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


I get this impression to a larger degree from a lot of starfinder classes. The main stat doesn't do much for you, and what it does do for you is easy to get another way. Meanwhile hit is HARD to come by. So While making my biohacker I have dex pumped to the max and int pumped almost as hard, since it DOES to a lot.
The difference I see with other classes is that you can't build a Biohacker ignoring Dexterity and Strength. When many classes have low Dexterity/Strength builds which are perfectly valid. Of course I don't speak of the Strength/Dexterity based classes.

Soldier: needs dex or strength (for melee or ranged)

Operative: needs dex for skills and to hit. But oddly enough can be more than viable as a strength build with dex secondary.

Mystic: Can viably start with a 12 or 14 wisdom if you don't cast offensive spells that require saves. (My mystic has a 14 wisdom but jacked his int to be a skill monkey, because.. starfinder society)

Solarion: Before the soulfire enchant dumping charisma was SOP for the solarion. Still wants their strength score higher than charisma

Technomancer: like the mystic can go with a moderate mental stat to focus elsewhere, like strength for beatsticking or dex for shooting.

Mechanic: barely gets anything out of int. Gets far more for dex for hitting or strength for beatsticking.

Envoy: Gets very little out of charisma oddly enough. Should have their hit stat for their unwieldy weapon jacked with their charisma running not too far behind. (I know some people like a pure buffing envoy without any hit. I am not a fan)

The biohacker is in a similar place as the envoy but not nearly as much: Int/wis drives the biohackers Injections, Treat conditions, serums with fort saves, extra skills etc. There's quite a lot of things that I want int for. Yes i want dex higher but i want my alleged main stat ALMOST as much.


Little background before I start. I started playing pathfinder like a year before starfinder came out. I played a rat folk alchemist, but when starfinder came out i dove head frist into it. I'm still new to roleplaying games, so bare with me. My first impression was "YES THEY MADE A SPACE ALCHEMIST!!!". I understand that there is a lot of differences and I've also heard them say on podcasts that they want it to be different. I also know that the names are not final but please change this name. When I first read the name "biohacker" my mind jumped to the class theme "Biotechnician"(Page 127 of the Pack worlds) and thought oh they just turn that theme into a class. So i skipped it and moved on to the next two then came back. Eventhough they are similar to each other I would like a name that makes them feel different. I also think this class is under powered, in combat: the envoy feels like it can buff/debuff easier (get'em/brace yourself) as long as you are in line of sight. The Mystic can cast a spell, not hit your KAC to heal you. Plus they get to add there WIS modifier. I would like for the effects to do more when I hit just because there is more R.N.G. to biohacker than the two other support classes. Also make it so something happens when i crit my friends. In closing I love this class. It just needs to do a little more. I sorry if this was a hard read/long read it was longer but i shortened it so somebody might read it. Thank you if you did read.


Mystics and Technomancers can easily go full Wisdom/Intelligence, and it works wonder.
Full support Envoy only needs Charisma. And you get a lot more from Charisma in out of combat situations.
Full Intelligence Mechanic is not extremely powerful, I recognize, but it is valid (Drone for combat, and your Mechanic in a support position with Cover/Harrying).

But with a Biohacker, if you completely dump Strength and Dexterity, you won't be functional in combat at all. In a 'lore' point of view, I think it's sad. I can't play an Intelligence based mad scientist without losing in efficiency...

Edit: I was answering to Big Norse Wolf.

Shadow Lodge

You could theoretically only jab your allies while standing right behind them. I think you'd be missing half of your class then, but you can.

Your class greatly benefiting from/almost needing to shoot along with whatever it is the class does seems to be a design feature.

Shadow Lodge

SuperBidi wrote:

Mystics and Technomancers can easily go full Wisdom/Intelligence, and it works wonder.

Full support Envoy only needs Charisma. And you get a lot more from Charisma in out of combat situations.

you get very little more. A shooty envoy is only 2-3 points behind an all in charisma envoy (and that will shrink to 1-2 as you level)

3 points when you have 2 rolls a level + d6+2 isn't that much difference. you're almost going to auto succeed without the extra +3 anyway.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


you get very little more. A shooty envoy is only 2-3 points behind an all in charisma envoy (and that will shrink to 1-2 as you level)
3 points when you have 2 rolls a level + d6+2 isn't that much difference. you're almost going to auto succeed without the extra +3 anyway.

Level 20 bluff/intimidate check against a level 20 opponent: DC 45. Full Charisma Envoy + maxed skill: 1d20 + 1d8 + 36. And you won't go for a second roll, considering that you'll have just a d20 + 32 if you choose that, so less than 50% success.

You really need this + 2 (in general, there are 2 points of difference between a maxed attribute and a nearly maxed one) to succeed such checks. And hard checks are at DC 50.

Also, you don't need Dexterity on a full support Envoy. Well, it's true that you have Reflex and Initiative bonuses from Dexterity, but that's all. And in SFS, being able to ignore your weapon means better side equipment.

We may argue on this build overall effectiveness and fun to play, but at least, it's a valid build with some strengths compared to a Dexterity based Envoy.

Shadow Lodge

SuperBidi wrote:


Level 20 bluff/intimidate check against a level 20 opponent: DC 45. Full Charisma Envoy + maxed skill: 1d20 + 1d8 + 36. And you won't go for a second roll, considering that you'll have just a d20 + 32 if you choose that, so less than 50% success.

math tangent only gamblers would be interested in:

First off, high level math is kind of busted in starfinder. It's a known thing.

Secondly its a bad point of comparison because its so little of the campaign much less of what actually gets played

Thirdly starting 4 behind the maxed charisma envoy (which would be a 10 charisma, which is not what i was recommending)

Level 1 18 vs 14 = net +2
Level 5 19 vs 16 = net +1 +1 for Upgrade priority
Level 10 20 vs 18 = net +1 +1 for Upgrade priority
level 15 21 vs 19 = net +1 +1 for Upgrade priority
level 20 22 vs 20 = net +1 +1 for Upgrade priority

and even IF we conceed to your assumptions, AND you (for some reason at that level) don't spend the resolve point for both the math is off.

45-32= I need to roll a 13

Odds of 1 failure= 65
Odds of 2 failures= .65*.65= 42.3%

Its also considerably lower because you can tell whether the d8 or another reroll is more likely to push you over the top.

There is probably a more elegant way to do this but trying to brute force those odds I get....

I rolled a 9+= 100%
chance of success on the d8+3
(100%X55)+

I'll succeeed 7/8 times If i rolled an 8
(5%*7/8) +

I'll succeed 6/8 times If I roll a 7
(5%*6/8)

I'll succeed 5/8 times if I roll a 6
(5%*5/8)

I'll succeed half the time If i roll a 5
(5%*4/8)

And If my first d20 roll is a 4 then I'm better off rerolling and I'll succeed 35% of the time

+(.35*.20)

I get a 75.75% chance of success. Its probably a fair bit higher again, because going all in on a stat at the start has diminishing returns as you level up.

Quote:
We may argue on this build overall effectiveness and fun to play, but at least, it's a valid build with some strengths compared to a Dexterity based Envoy.

With a horrible weakness in that its not directly contributing anything to damage, whereas a more balanced envoy contributes almost as much buff as well as taking advantage of said buffs. Similarly a wholly int mad scientist would have SOME alleged advantages over a biohacker that can hit, but being able to stand in the back and buff wouldn't be one of them.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoilers are not copied, but it was all your maths.

I clearly agree with your maths, chances are quite low if you consider an average difficulty roll. For a hard difficulty roll, you go under 50% chance of success if your not maxed. What I mean is that, even with a maxed Charisma, you never have auto successes even at level 20 (chances are fairly equal at every level). So, if you plan on being the face of your party and really blast all Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate checks, going full Charisma is useful.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
With a horrible weakness in that its not directly contributing anything to damage

It's not a weakness to me. Your healing is quite high, thanks to Get'Em and Hurry you have a clear impact on your team ability to deal damage. You are less polyvalent, but, in my opinion (I insist on this one) you have a higher impact on battle than a balanced Envoy, because support improvisations are better in action efficiency.

And anyway, I'm not saying that Envoy has to be build that way, just that it's a valid build, and I'm sad that this possibility doesn't exist with a Biohacker.

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