What is ESSENTIAL to a thrower?


Advice

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A friend of mine is throwing together a fun anime-ish type gestalt game, and I ran across an idea by TheSideKick here about mixing Oracle of Waves and Ninja in a way that just makes me feel all Naruto inside.

Since said character is going to be a bit feat starved, I'm just curious to know what feats are absolutely necessary to pull of such a thrower? (Other than TWF, Point Blank, and Rapid Shot.)


Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot.

Rapid Shot = meh.


Depending on what you're throwing, Quick Draw. If it's Shuriken or anything else that counts as ammo you won't need it (since drawing those is a free action anyway) but if you wanna toss daggers or something you'll likely need it.

You may want to take the Trait Strong Arm, Supple Wrist.


I hope you're not planning on using TWF and rapid shot together, that's some nasty penalties to attack. However, Weapon Focus(Shuriken) is always good, and you should work your way up to improved precise shot, because enemies having (soft)cover and/or concealment can also ruin your day.

Sczarni

STRENGTH
Edit: I mean you know, the strength feat.... that makes you stronger.


Honestly, that's another question: Not sure what to throw!

Ninja gives me incentives to throw shuriken, but ammunition would eat up my spells just enchanting them all the time at higher levels.
On the other hand, enchanting enough daggers with returning that I could take advantage of so many potential attacks would be so expensive it's ridiculous.

/sigh


Theoretically, penalties to attack would be offset by opponents being constantly denied their dex bonus against me, but it's also a concern.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Chakram.


I believe (though I can't find it) that magic ammo is created in groups of 50, so it wouldn't be THAT expensive.


Neo2151 wrote:
Theoretically, penalties to attack would be offset by opponents being constantly denied their dex bonus against me, but it's also a concern.

That holds true if they're enemies with a high dex score, otherwise against opponents with low dex and high natural armor, you might be screwed. now if you plan on throwing something besides shuriken, like chakram, or daggers, or even starknives*gasp), I would suggest making yourself a mighty hurling blinkback belt and the quick draw feat, so you can make thrown weapon attack rolls with your Strength instead of dex, and have them immediately be ready to throw again after the attack is resolved.


Ooo, I've been mis-reading Blinkback Belt (I thought the weapons returned before the start of your next turn, not immediately after the attack).


Oh!

If possible (at higher levels), Point Blank Master would probably be a good choice. Most throwing weapons you're only one move away from being in some guy's face.


Man, as soon as I saw that, I was all over it for my chakram throwing fighter. I suddenly imagined the appearance of him throwing giant cordless yo-yos at the enemies, and had to have it.


Lighten weapon>improved lighten weapon will let you throw oversize i.e. shuriken (d2>d3>d4) depending if you wanna take some penalties. Like having power attack without taking the feat or Deadly aim later to crank up the damage some more, distance thrower if range is a problem. i.e. PBS & weapon focus can offset penalties.


belt of mighty hurling or blinkback belt., and anythign else listed in the thread.

Sczarni

Shurikens cannot rely on their base damage to be their primary source of damage, and magical ammo gets really expensive until way later on. You need strength, and a lot of attacks.

I would take a monk and have him flurry out shurikens like a mofo.

Weapon Focus: Shuriken
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot

The full BAB on flurries will help to mitigate the mildly reduced dex bonus.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A Shuriken focused Cleric of Graffiacane, or Yaezhing sounds cool.

Sczarni

The OP already chose his class combo-- Oracle/Ninja.

Can the Ninja's Flurry of Stars ability be combined with TWF and/or Rapid Shot? If so, then definitely throw Shuriken. Don't worry about enchanting them-- you're an Oracle, and can therefore cast Magic Weapon on a pouch of 50. Take Quicken Spell (or get a Quicken Metamagic Rod) as soon as you can, so you don't have to waste the surprise round casting Magic Weapon.

Since you'll be relying on Sneak Attack dice for damage, don't worry too much about your base damage. You'll be taking penalties to hit, so you'll need Dex more than Strength. Precise Shot and IPS will be very helpful. Deadly Aim might hurt your to-hit too much, but it's worth picking up if you can since you can use it against low-AC opponents for free extra damage.

Sczarni

Flurry of Stars (Ex):
A ninja with this ability can expend 1 ki point from her ki pool as a swift action before she makes a full-attack attack with shuriken. During that attack, she can throw two additional shuriken at her highest attack bonus, but all of her shuriken attacks are made at a –2 penalty, including the two extra attacks.
Okay I didn't know about this ability, but very cool. So lets look at order of operations.

Qualifications: full-attack action with shuriken
1. Flurry of Stars
First additional shuriken at -4 (Flurry, Rapid Shot)
Second additional shuriken at -4 (Flurry, Rapid Shot)

2. Full round attack action
Main hand attack -6 (Flurry, Rapid Shot, TWF)
Off hand attack -6 (Flurry, Rapid Shot, TWF)

3. Rapid Shot at -6 (Flurry, Rapid Shot, TWF)

So that's 5 attacks at Ninja level 2 ...Now unfortunately, you're not getting the full BAB and full off hand strength associated with flurry of blows, but you are getting two additional attacks, which is really nice! The big issue here is obviously that these penalties are going to start stacking and will get problematic. You could simplify things...

1. Flurry of Stars
First additional shuriken at -2 (Flurry)
Second additional shuriken at -2 (Flurry)

2. Full round attack action
Main hand attack -2 (Flurry)

That's still three attacks but at much better numbers. Also, on my first calculation, I'm not sure if TWF affects your FoS, but I don't think it does since the FoS resolves before the full attack action. Also, I'm not sure if Rapid Shot affects your FoS; it just says "all your attacks take a -2" which is very broad.

As for sneak attack, dex, and strength, you need to think long and hard about this. Since you're not a melee combatant, you won't be able to flank with ranged shuriken attacks. This will severely reduce your Sneak Attack capabilities since only your opening attack will have your opponent flat footed (assuming he doesn't notice you to begin with). Also, do you have a method of making your opponent flat footed after round 1? If you use ninja trick invisibility, you'll be burning your Ki points down like candy since you'll have to use them for FoS, and then you'll still only get your opening attack at flat footed. Point being here is that consistent damage will prove to be critical for you, especially since you'll be attacking at a range. I disagree with Saturn and would still encourage you to use Strength.

Could you consider replacing ninja levels with monk levels? I think you'd do a lot better in the long run with that approach depending on how nice your stat distribution is. You also get some nice bonus feats with the monk. Thoughts?

Liberty's Edge

@Abadar

He is multi-classing oracle of waves for water sight and obscuring mists to pretty much always have total concealment to sneak attack.

Of course this method can read to frustration with the partly who can't see through fog like it's not there, but it works great for him.

The biggest issue I see for a build like this is that what do you do when counter measures are applied? All in shurikens really lacks when you are targeting full ac without sneak. As long as a good back up plan is there it seems fun to me.

Sczarni

Ahh read the build post.. If its about damage, I'm going to run this through the number cruncher. This concept looks like fun.


Rynjin wrote:

Oh!

If possible (at higher levels), Point Blank Master would probably be a good choice. Most throwing weapons you're only one move away from being in some guy's face.

For a throwing build, you want Close Quarters Thrower. Point Blank Master is for projectile weapons. (I found that out the hard way!)

On the plus side, Close Quarters Thrower only requires Weapon Focus, which means you pick it up a lot sooner. (Point Blank Master requires Weapon Specialization, which itself requires 4 fighter levels. There are only a few ways around that.)


I think if your gonna take rapid shot anyway, why not take martial weapon Starknife. With the extra damage you won't need to Flurry with Shuriken. Also lighten weapon>improved lighten weapon (check the d20pfsrd). maybe take many shot so you can throw multiple Starknives while staying mobile. Large Starknives do 1d6 damage.


Clustered Shots could help.


maybe arcane strike?


Gwen Smith wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Oh!

If possible (at higher levels), Point Blank Master would probably be a good choice. Most throwing weapons you're only one move away from being in some guy's face.

For a throwing build, you want Close Quarters Thrower. Point Blank Master is for projectile weapons. (I found that out the hard way!)

On the plus side, Close Quarters Thrower only requires Weapon Focus, which means you pick it up a lot sooner. (Point Blank Master requires Weapon Specialization, which itself requires 4 fighter levels. There are only a few ways around that.)

I'm actually confused by this. I don't see anything in Point Blank Master that suggests its only for projectile weapons. It states only ranged weapons. I made sure to double check the FAQs just in case I missed something.


Martiln wrote:
I hope you're not planning on using TWF and rapid shot together, that's some nasty penalties to attack.

If he was an Alchemist, he could pull it off thanks to targeting touch AC (he isn't one though)


Alejandro Acosta wrote:
I think if your gonna take rapid shot anyway, why not take martial weapon Starknife. With the extra damage you won't need to Flurry with Shuriken. Also lighten weapon>improved lighten weapon (check the d20pfsrd). maybe take many shot so you can throw multiple Starknives while staying mobile. Large Starknives do 1d6 damage.

Edit: forget the starknife. Use a Chakram (martial). You get 1d8 damage, Crit x2 and 30 ft. range. It's a martial weapon so you can use it at first level. Stat priority also changes. Go with ++WIS>+DEX>+STR>CON>-INT>-CHA. I put WIS 1st to boost monk abilities (SF, AC, Ki). going with Mantis style.


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A halfling in spiked plate. Seriously, you're gonna need a bag full of these.


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First off, lighten weapon is 3PP. Some people are not ok with that. I dunno about you.

Now I have been collecting threads about throwing and whatnot, take a look through my archive :)
List of useful things
Spear throwing thread
Grab giant chunks of earth and chuck that
Throwing axe storm
Throw EVERYTHING!

I thought I had another thread somewhere for throwing 2-handed stuff. loads of fun but basically you chuck 2-handed warhammers at people :)

A couple of ideas that havent gotten on paper (binary?) yet.
A brilliant thrown weapon (I prefer bigger one) and some way to see through walls. Brilliant ignores nonliving matter and most walls are not living, you see inside the room somehow and chuck your weapon at the unsuspecting mooks on the other side. Could literally wipe out a room with them having no idea whats happening ;)

An unarmed fighter.
2 levels of Hurler barbarian for brawler/greater brawler powers, X levels of unarmed fighter.
get raging hurler (somehow I missed that one before), rapid shot, TWF (and iteratives if you have the dex), boots of haste (or haste some other way) and AOMF: Throwing.
You now deal d6 damage on an unarmed strike, get boatloads of attacks, you can full attack at range with 40 ft range increment and switch to full attacking at melee when they get close. Basically full attack all the time.
Brings a new meaning to "throw a fist".

Edit: I should have had a ninja star-throwing build somewhere, Ill see if I can dig it up :)
In the meantime also have a look at the Ninja guide for some ideas as it has a section on throwing in it :)
And I second the halfling idea! A medium barbarian could quite literally pull this off with body bludgeon power and the raging thrower/two-handed thrower feat :) All you need is a 'willing' target to chuck :D Halflings in a bag of holding for instance?
I could see a barbarian with a deep hatred for halflings go on a kidnapping spree and stuff all his victims into a bag of holding with a bottle of continuous air and reaching in to 'grab' one of his victims when he needs to get into combat XD

Ohhh! Just remembered about this! There is the Halfling rock-skipping champion prestige class you would also want to check out! Its third party but its funny.


Im making a build that focuses on the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/deadly-dealer feat to be gambit. Its pretty fun so far. I just have to remember to pick up daggers after I chuck em. Eventually ill be throwing cards but til 5 im stuck with lobbing daggers. Its for rise of the runelords so im thinking i may enchant my daggers with Giant Bane and still lob those. Its a shame bladethirst performance doesnt grant the bane property...


Gallyck wrote:
Im making a build that focuses on the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/deadly-dealer feat to be gambit. Its pretty fun so far. I just have to remember to pick up daggers after I chuck em. Eventually ill be throwing cards but til 5 im stuck with lobbing daggers. Its for rise of the runelords so im thinking i may enchant my daggers with Giant Bane and still lob those. Its a shame bladethirst performance doesnt grant the bane property...

Ya that sounds like fun :) I never saw the arcane duelist archetype before (probably because I never play bards :P) but it looks interesting.

You know what bugs me? The majority of enchanting ranged weapons does it in batches of 50.
A deck of cards has 54... The last 4... ugg....
Just a pet peeve of mine for that feat :)


Actually I just got the idea of trying to get all the throwing information that I can together and make a mini guide of it just to see if I can. It would also be a great resource for future reference :)


Gobo Horde wrote:
Gallyck wrote:
Im making a build that focuses on the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/deadly-dealer feat to be gambit. Its pretty fun so far. I just have to remember to pick up daggers after I chuck em. Eventually ill be throwing cards but til 5 im stuck with lobbing daggers. Its for rise of the runelords so im thinking i may enchant my daggers with Giant Bane and still lob those. Its a shame bladethirst performance doesnt grant the bane property...

Ya that sounds like fun :) I never saw the arcane duelist archetype before (probably because I never play bards :P) but it looks interesting.

You know what bugs me? The majority of enchanting ranged weapons does it in batches of 50.
A deck of cards has 54... The last 4... ugg....
Just a pet peeve of mine for that feat :)

be ironic--the aces are harmless (comparitively)


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A ring of x-ray vision is your friend, oh hurler of brilliant energy weapons. Make it a returning weapon for added mayhem.


AndIMustMask wrote:
Gobo Horde wrote:
Gallyck wrote:
Im making a build that focuses on the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/deadly-dealer feat to be gambit. Its pretty fun so far. I just have to remember to pick up daggers after I chuck em. Eventually ill be throwing cards but til 5 im stuck with lobbing daggers. Its for rise of the runelords so im thinking i may enchant my daggers with Giant Bane and still lob those. Its a shame bladethirst performance doesnt grant the bane property...

Ya that sounds like fun :) I never saw the arcane duelist archetype before (probably because I never play bards :P) but it looks interesting.

You know what bugs me? The majority of enchanting ranged weapons does it in batches of 50.
A deck of cards has 54... The last 4... ugg....
Just a pet peeve of mine for that feat :)

be ironic--the aces are harmless (comparitively)

Oh I love it! Have it where you randomly draw a card every time so that one time...

Great idea! Its going to stick for sure :)


always wanted to make a barbarian who chucks greatswords at people (like that one scene from Claymore).


Gobo Horde wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Gobo Horde wrote:
Gallyck wrote:
Im making a build that focuses on the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/deadly-dealer feat to be gambit. Its pretty fun so far. I just have to remember to pick up daggers after I chuck em. Eventually ill be throwing cards but til 5 im stuck with lobbing daggers. Its for rise of the runelords so im thinking i may enchant my daggers with Giant Bane and still lob those. Its a shame bladethirst performance doesnt grant the bane property...

Ya that sounds like fun :) I never saw the arcane duelist archetype before (probably because I never play bards :P) but it looks interesting.

You know what bugs me? The majority of enchanting ranged weapons does it in batches of 50.
A deck of cards has 54... The last 4... ugg....
Just a pet peeve of mine for that feat :)

be ironic--the aces are harmless (comparitively)

Oh I love it! Have it where you randomly draw a card every time so that one time...

Great idea! Its going to stick for sure :)

although, looking at the feat, if you enchant it yourself you enchant all 54 at once, so no need to exclude any--then again that'd require taking item creation feats.


Turin the Mad wrote:
A ring of x-ray vision is your friend, oh hurler of brilliant energy weapons. Make it a returning weapon for added mayhem.

That will do nicely :)

Add in a blinkback belt and vola! You start murdering people from the other room!

Shadow Lodge

Have a Pilum on hand as well. Toss it at shieldmen to make them lose their shields for a while.


No one wants to throw halflings? :( Seriously make them fighters and throw them so they can ready a full attack as an interrupt after being thrown. Then they return to you at the end of your turn.

The Exchange

How about all that alchemist product - better living (or killing) thru alchemy - tanglefoot, fire, acid, smokestick.... And don't forget nets all very ninja flavored. I expect there's some ninja stuff I don't know about since historically they were into stuff very like this.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
No one wants to throw halflings? :( Seriously make them fighters and throw them so they can ready a full attack as an interrupt after being thrown. Then they return to you at the end of your turn.

I do! I even had the idea of stuffing them in a bag of holding...

Gobo Horde wrote:

And I second the halfling idea! A medium barbarian could quite literally pull this off with body bludgeon power and the raging thrower/two-handed thrower feat :) All you need is a 'willing' target to chuck :D Halflings in a bag of holding for instance?

I could see a barbarian with a deep hatred for halflings go on a kidnapping spree and stuff all his victims into a bag of holding with a bottle of continuous air and reaching in to 'grab' one of his victims when he needs to get into combat XD

Sadly you couldnt put the returning property on them but you could command them to come back to you :D Nothing like willing slaves ready to be chucked at a moments notice XD Personally I love the idea of using a halfling weapon, both in melee and at range, It would be a good use for the leadership feat...

"NEXT!"

Sczarni

One day I will roll up a Throw Anything barbarian whose weapon of choice is an anvil.


Silent Saturn wrote:
One day I will roll up a Throw Anything barbarian whose weapon of choice is an anvil.

and one day i'll rebuild my old warforged bard in PF (probably as an android). his preferred weapon and instrument was a pipe organ.


Flame

But seriously returning weapons.


Gobo Horde wrote:

You know what bugs me? The majority of enchanting ranged weapons does it in batches of 50.

A deck of cards has 54... The last 4... ugg....
Just a pet peeve of mine for that feat :)

A tarot deck can be made consisting of the 22 major arcana and 2 suits of the minor arcana (the swords and batons?).


Silent Saturn wrote:
One day I will roll up a Throw Anything barbarian whose weapon of choice is an anvil.

That sounds interesting :) I like the weapon of choice :D

Other good weapons of choice, your grannies tea cozy, your own prosthetic leg, a Gold coin, petrified squirrels, why dont you start chucking some pigs around? Chickens would work as well :) A portable altar? "YOU MUST REPENT!" Then theres this guy who killed people by braining them with a bible...

The tea cozy, prosthetic leg and bible would probably be better served as improvised melee weapons but the thought of killing someone with a gold coin (or a copper if your cheap) would be funny ^-^ I imagine the damage would be like a non-lethal shuriken. Petrified squirrels would just be epic XD


Gobo Horde wrote:

Sadly you couldnt put the returning property on them but you could command them to come back to you :D Nothing like willing slaves ready to be chucked at a moments notice XD Personally I love the idea of using a halfling weapon, both in melee and at range, It would be a good use for the leadership feat...

"NEXT!"

Isn't plate with spikes considered a melee weapon? If so you could enchant the armor to have the returning property.


My bard is shining in this party im in. We have a battle cleric with a dwarven longhammer, a invuln rager barbarian and a Honor Guard cavalier. I sit 10 feet back Lobbing daggers and ear piercing screams. Im always within 10 feet so i can pop an emergency heal after they get crit. I dont do tons of damage (1d4 + 1 arcane strike + 1 inspire +1 str bonus +1 Point blank shot) but eh. Not my job.

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