I just had an idea for a potential replacement for aura of indiscretion that wouldn't be as potentially problematic with the new CC progression. What if you gave them an aura power akin to the antipaladin's aura of cowardice that broke immunity to mind affecting spells. That would help mitigate the potential save stacking and simultaneously cancel out one of the beguiler's greatest weaknesses.

That said, the increase to save DCs was (on a gut level, at the very least) the hardest of these provisional changes for me to swallow. As always I value your input and would love to hear from others about whether they think the increased save DCs are too much.

I'm on the fence about whether it's too much, but you could always offer the old progression as a variant rule. Or even the new progression for that matter.

I also really like the new archetype. It has a very good mix of ninja and beguiler abilities. One issue I see is with the new artifact: it seems like a single user could continuously use the stone to move as many people or items through the gate simply by continuously walking back and forth between them. You might want to put a cooldown of a few hours (maybe days) to prevent a situation where you would only really need one or two Heimdall-style gatekeepers to disrupt the need for a passage.

Usually a 'variant' or prestige class to a class bring about some good and some bad things. It requires a choice of what you want to gain and what you are willing to give away. So I'd expect that these Orders works the same way.

But as it stand now, they only bring something extra: on the mellow side it's an extra 'option' that has good and bad side to it. But an extra option in itself is extra flexibility, so still extra power. On the stronger side these extra's are truly extra powers, that will increase the power of te character/Beguiler.
I think this will only give unwanted discussion, since in itself the Beguiler Class (as you made it) is a balanced modification that deserves its place in all PF games. By making the Beguiler stronger with Orders, its succes might mean its downfall.

Or am I missing something?

The orders don't trade out powers because they're not archetypes or variants, they're character options. Think of them like a sorcerer's bloodline. In my game I've found the orders a vital part of bringing the beguiler into the fold of pathfinder's internal balance where sorcerers have their bloodlines and wizards have their school powers.

Well if people are satisfied with the shape of the capricious professional, I can write it up and push it out some time in the next week or so. A question to the thread: do you think it belongs in the main conversion document or BotIS? My gut says BotIS because its versatility may make it more powerful than most beguiler options, but I'd like to hear others' opinions on the matter.

Unless you have a setting specific reason to put it in BotIS, I'd keep in in the beguiler conversion proper. This isn't a huge power level bump (I'd say it looks more like a sidegrade personally) so there's no real reason not to give the archetype as much exposure as you can.

That sounds like a really fun idea, GreenGrapes.

Ooo exciting! I can't wait to go over everything. I just read over the artifact and it sounds really cool. One thing I did notice is that it seems to be missing one of the deadly sins (there's only six tokens, but seven deadly sins).

If homebrew is on the table, I suggest you take a look at Ertw's beguiler from the conversion board, which has an option for an int-based bard archetype.

And now, here is my first draft for the beguiler class templates:

Really great work here, Ertw! I'll give brief comments on each template:

Deceptive Acolyte
This is a really cool idea and I love the fact that the fluff ties them to the guild by way of contracted out healers. This is one of the less involved templates, but it still packs a punch. Giving clerics and druids access to the whole beguiler spell list is really powerful, but you've done a good job offsetting that by pushing them into a spontaneous casting shell. It's nice to see a spontaneous casting charisma based druid option after we were all let down by the feyspeaker archetype. One question: you mention that the druid loses their ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally, but does a cleric lose the ability to spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells?

Ghastly Enforcer
This is 100% the slayer archetype I was hoping for when I mentioned it as a possibility. It's the stygian slayer we should have got and then some. The ciphered tome was such a great idea since it adds both flavor to the archetype as well as explains why wizards can't just use it to steal beguiler spells. I'm glad you decided to keep the harbinger in this, but kind of disappointed that sorcerous deception got dropped. It seems like such a good fit for this kind of class, but I guess I can't have my cake and eat it too.

Guild Envoy
I'm having trouble pinning this one down in terms of power level. The addition of beguiler spells to the wizard spell list isn't that big of a deal, most spells were already there, but cloaked casting applied to all spells is huge. Artful invocation only applying to beguiler spells is probably a good idea, but it kind of renders spectacular casting a little inert since there aren't any of the shadow evocation-type spells on the main beguiler list (come to think of it, are there any in the arcane hand's order spells?). The dread spellcasting is cool, but why even make them into spellcasters instead of just letting them pick up a beguiler spell as a dread power?

Stygian Saboteur
I was just riffing when suggested the alchemist idea, but I like what you've done with it. Most of what's here can probably be pseudo-replicated by alchemist discoveries and the bomber rogue talent, but it's a fun thematic option for a mad-scientist beguiler-type.

Trickster Operative
This is a fun one. Like the ghastly enforcer is to the stygian slayer, the trickster operative is to the eldritch scoundrel. I was always so mad that the ES had to give up its armored casting (which every other 6th level caster had). I really like how each class kind of ends up in its own niche. The rogue has the best sneak attack, the bard has the best spellcasting, and the vigilante has the best talents. I agree with JW about being sad to lose bardic knowledge, but I can see your point about them being the skillmonkey to end all skillmonkeys if you left it in.

Hope these comments are useful to you. Thank you for putting in so much work on this project, the care and attention that you put into it really shows through the fact that the quality has remained so high for so long. Great job!

Really pumped for these options, especially the enforcer and acolyte.

I do have some thoughts for wizard and cleric options.

Cleric seems a strange choice, but I'm kind of excited to see what you do with it.

Alchemist is one I hadn't considered. I'll have to think on the best way to incorporate that idea.

You can't go wrong with poisons thematically (even if they're not typically very strong in the mid or late game). Maybe something like the Gloom Chymist's gloom bombs, but triggering an effect like shatterglass or witchfire. I figured with your new flair for alchemical mixtures you might have some good ideas.

Mesmerist I'm not crazy about simply because of the tendency for overlap between the two classes.

I guess I can see that.

I'm on the fence about these options. I'm not super familiar with the psionics and Path of War subsystems, so it might be hard for me to balance. I'm also a little wary of building around other third party properties; some players may have trouble convincing their GMs to allow the beguiler because it's homebrew and adding other 3PPs into the mix won't necessarily make it easier. I'll still keep it in mind, but I won't guarantee anything.

As long as you're posting ideas here or playtesting them, I think plenty of people would be willing to help you with any balance concerns you have. As for stacking homebrew and 3PPs, as long as it's an optional rule and not an integral part of the conversion I don't think many people would have problems just saying yes to the beguiler but no to the initiating or manifesting options (or even no to the whole template system).

ertw wrote:

On another subject: I've been considering adding a series of templates akin to those from Path of War to the variant rules section to give beguiler-like options to existing classes. I have a vague idea of which classes I'd like to include, but I'd like some input from people here:

What kind of classes would you like to see get some beguiler-like options? What kind of options/features would you like to see exported in this way?

Definitely the slayer and rogue. You could use the stygian slayer and eldritch scoundrel archetypes as a base as both are pretty interesting ideas that were IMHO poorly executed. Features would definitely include spellcasting (4th level casting for slayer, 6th level casting for rogue) and maybe access to order powers coming into effect at a reduced rate.

I agree these two definitely need to be in there. IIRC I suggested a potential slayer archetype in this thread a while ago, but nothing ever came of it. As for other options that might be less obvious: an alchemist/investigator archetype could be pretty interesting, you could do something with another arcane class to teach them some of your beguiler tricks (though you might want to stay away from spontaneous casters since their innate magic might be hard to gel with beguiler training and modification), mesmerist seems like an obvious one. If you're willing to go more afield into DSP's portfolio, I'd love to see your take on a beguiler inspired dread, harbinger or stalker.

I'd recommend you take a look at this homebrew beguiler conversion, there are some neat feat options in there your gm might allow.

Love, love, LOVE witchfire essence! I love the idea of creating chaos by throwing a bottle of invisible fire through the window of my enemy's hideout.

Social status is a cool tool for a theugic brigand in an urban campaign and would probably make her a great asset to a theif-based party by giving them a legitimate face.

Pidgin adept sounds really cool. Maybe something interesting in a seafaring-type campaign when setting up trade in new lands filled with foreign cultures.

I like the tradeoffs of artful invocation, they basically let you tailor your spellcasting to the situation and the ability to learn spells for the long term with spell mimic definitely pulls up the power level of the Arcane Hand due to massively increased versatility.

Overall I really like the changes and I'm really excited to see your new ideas based on JammyPanda's ideas.

I was wondering if you would be alright with me co-opting the term flurry of blades you coined in Secret Wizard's racial archetypes thread as part of the archetype?

Absolutely feel free to use it.

Glad to see this project isn't dead, even if it is a little dormant. My group has been on hiatus between campaigns for the past few months, but lately I've been itching to put together one of those gun toting beguilers you mentioned months ago.

The kickass fey thing from the latest bestiary.

Link

SylverFox wrote:

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

ertw wrote:

The basic idea is that there is a powerful fey creature in Nidal that's posing as a member of the Umbral Court

Is... is it a Vilderavn?

What's a vilderavn?

As Kryzbyn pointed out it's a very cool fey creature from bestiary 5. It seems like it's gained a lot of popularity in the past few weeks in the pathfinder thread on /tg/ as an exciting new alternative to the boring old lich-as-big-bad trope.

That's really neat, I hadn't seen that creature before. It definitely seems like a good villain creature.

I really like the sound of the Beguiler, but it looks a little OP too (especially since it has full casting).

When I first came across Ertw's beguiler I felt much the same way. I was worried my DM would veto it right off the bat for being too powerful. Instead, those people in the thread I linked pointed out just how limited the beguiler is by its spell list. When I ran it by my DM she agreed that it wasn't really that powerful, even as a class with 9th level spells. Now that I've played a few characters using the class, and DMed a bunch more, I can safely say that the power level for the beguiler is much closer to classes with 6th level spells (like the Inquisitor or Bard) than classes with 9th level spells. If you like it, run it by your DM, point him to Ertw's thread in the conversion forum where there has been significant discussion of the class' balance. The worst that can happen is he could say no.

Hey guys,

I wanted to run a PC using something similar to Kobold Press's Trickster. Both my DM and I agree that, as presented, the Trickster is crazy OP (full wiz/sorc spellcasting, what were they thinking?). Are there any homebrew products out there that have the same kind of feel, but don't suffer from the same kind of balance problems?

There are two good options mentioned in the discussion you linked to: my personal favorite is Ertw's Beguiler, but Ascension Games' Nightblade is pretty good too.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if you're not making these to sell them, you don't really need to pad anything with content. BotIS should be for stuff that is Inner Sea specific: guild descriptions, thematic PrCs (although I'm beginning to think that the hellknight might work as either an archetype or an order rather than a PrC, maybe the spymaster one too), etc. But I'd leave stuff like these two new orders and probably the tomebound archetype should go into the main conversion document where they'll get the best exposure.

There's the Beguiler if you're interested in a mage-rogue hybrid. That conversion there was developed over on the conversion boards.

I agree with PS 100%, I'd much rather play this beguiler than a mesmerist.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock it, I really love all your ideas, but my GM (being the rules lawyer that he is) would never allow this, and that saddens me. :(

It just looks too good to be true.

I was in this same boat back in December. I sure am glad I listened to ertw and penumbral shadows's comments on the power level because they were right on the money IMHO. At level 10 my beguiler is definitely a few steps behind the wizard in my party, but that's okay because I still have my specific strengths to not feel obsolete.

I think the beguiling discipline ability of the hellknight deceiver is really interesting, finally something that might make me reconsider my opinions about PrCs for beguilers. The focus on two-bladed swords is interesting, fitting with the idea of the hellknight orders' favored weapons, and these abilities finally might actually make the two-bladed sword work (I never understood why they'd deny finesse to a weapon built to be used with a high dex combat form like TWF). The only thing that seems kind of out of place is armored mage, a beguiler in medium armor seems uncharacteristic.

The armor thing is kind of in line with the hellknight's schtick. Take a look at the hellknight enforcer which is very similar to this class, it involves casting in heavy armor.

SylverFox wrote:

Drat, well here it is with the suggested changes/fixes.

I highly suggest putting the archetype (and future public works) into a Google Drive document. Then you can just link it and make edits as you please.

Finally got around to putting the archetype onto google drive:

I've been playing Ertw's conversion for a few months, Penumbral Shadow's description of how the class plays was pretty spot on. It's a really killer out of combat, but eclipsed by pretty much everybody else when the fighting starts. While going through the old thread, I found Happy Pappy's post on page 4 really touched on the reasons I didn't like the archetype/bloodline/direct conversion approaches: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qmqe&page=4?Beguiler-conversion-for-Pathfi nder

Finally had time to put my suggestions for the zephyr thief archetype down, here's what I came up with:

Zephyr Thief (Sylph; Witch)

The zephyr thief is the result of a sylph's natural curiosity coupled with the perverting influence of her mysterious patron. A zephyr thief excels at stealing trinkets from other creatures in the hopes of understanding them better. These "borrowed" objects only sate the zephyr thief's curiosity for a short time and often she finds herself taking more and more from her victim.

Class Skills: A zephyr thief gains Disable Device, Disguise and Sleight of Hand as class skills, but loses Heal and Intimidate.

Locked Spellbook: A zephyr thief must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all zephyr thieves can prepare from memory.

A zephyr thief begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level witch spells plus three 1st-level spells of her choice. The zephyr thief also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to her Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new witch level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new witch level) for her spellbook. At any time, a zephyr thief can also add spells from the witch spell list found in a wizard or magus' spellbook, or from scrolls to her own (see Magic).

Unlike a wizard's spellbook, a zephyr thief's spellbook is jealously guarded by a mysterious power. Whenever the spellbook is closed it is locked as if by some unseen force. A locked spellbook can only be unlocked by the zephyr witch's skeleton latchkey, any attempts to open it by mundane or magical means will fail. If a zephyr thief's spellbook is left open and unattended, it will close automatically after one hour.

This replaces familiar.

Skeleton Latchkey (Su): At 1st level, a zephyr thief forms a powerful bond to an arcane-infused key which serves as a symbol of and a direct conduit to her patron's gifts. Starting at 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a skeleton latchkey teaches its owner how to add a new spell to her spellbook. These spells are as follows:
2nd-windy escape, 4th-pilfering hand, 6th-cloak of winds, 8th-cloud shape, 10th-fickle winds, 12th-serenity, 14th-phase door, 16th-screen, 18th-winds of vengeance.

If a zephyr thief holds her skeleton latchkey in her hand as an arcane focus, she can "lose" a prepared spell in order to cast one of the above spells of the same level or lower. Spells cast in this manner cannot be modified by metamagic.

When in the possession of its owner a skeleton latchkey also counts as a set of masterwork thieves' tools.

If a skeleton latchkey is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the zephyr thief gains her spells for the day. If it is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per witch level. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete.

This replaces patron spells.

Subtle Knife (Ex): At 2nd level, a zephyr thief happens across a curious tool. This knife could appear mysteriously in a zephyr thief's belongings, or she could stumble upon it by the providence of her patron. This weapon is far too brittle to be used as a weapon and it has no apparent worth, however a zephyr thief can use this blade to attempt to steal a small trinket from another creature. This trinket can be a lock of hair, a button from their clothing, or any other token of purely personal value. Doing so undetected requires a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check.

If the zephyr thief attaches this trinket to her skeleton latchkey, she creates a bond between herself and the victim. The zephyr thief can use her hexes on the victim at a range of up to 1 mile. She can only form such a bond with one creature at a time and ending the bond is a move action.

At 10th level, a zephyr thief can remove a small body part from a helpless creature as a full round action. Removing a body part provokes attacks of opportunity. The body part can be a finger, an ear, or any other small bit of flesh. When a body part is attached to her skeleton latchkey, the zephyr thief can use her hexes on the victim regardless of range so long as they are both on the same plane. This also grants the zephyr thief a +2 profane bonus to the DC of her hexes targeting that victim.

If a subtle knife is broken, lost or destroyed, the zephyr thief finds an intact copy amongst her belongings when she gains her spells for the day.

This replaces the hex gained at 2nd level.

Thief's hexes: A zephyr thief can select any of the following hexes whenever she is granted a new hex.

Adept Thief (Ex): The zephyr thief gains Improved Steal as a bonus feat and can use her Sleight of Hand bonus instead of her CMB when performing a steal combat maneuver. If the zephyr thief gains bonuses on combat maneuver checks from any feats, spells, magic items, or similar effects, they are added to the Sleight of Hand bonus when using the steal maneuver.

Take Voice (Su): A zephyr thief can cause her foes' throats to constrict, preventing them from speaking. This acts as the steal voice spell, using the zephyr thief's caster level, however its effects only persist for 1 hour per witch level. Whether or not the target saves, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 24 hours.

If the zephyr thief uses this hex against a creature bonded to her by her skeleton latchkey, she can control her enemy's voice. This acts as the ventriloquism spell, however it lasts for 1 hour per witch level and the speech can only issue from her victim's mouth or her own.

A zephyr thief must be 4th level to select this hex.

Borrow Face (Su): A zephyr thief can assume the appearance of a humanoid or native outsider with which she is familiar. This grants the zephyr thief a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to appear to be her target. This otherwise functions as alter self, except that it lasts for 1 hour per witch level and the zephyr thief does not adjust her ability scores.

If the zephyr thief uses this hex against a creature bonded to her by her skeleton latchkey, she can also attempt to alter its appearance. A Will save can negate this effect. This acts as the disguise other spell, except that it lasts for 1 hour per witch level and it can only disguise the target as another member of its type and subtype.

A zephyr thief must be 8th level to select this hex.

Steal Breath (Su): A zephyr thief can draw the air directly from her target's lungs. If the target of this hex fails a Fortitude save, it immediately begins to suffocate (see Environment). Whether or not the target saves, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 24 hours.

If the zephyr thief uses this hex against a creature bonded to her by her skeleton latchkey, this hex acts as the suffocation spell instead.

A zephyr thief must be 12th level to select this hex.

Abduct Body (Su): A zephyr thief can steal her target's very willpower. A target which fails its Will save falls under the control of the zephyr thief. This functions as the dominate monster spell. Whether or not the target saves, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 24 hours.

If the zephyr thief uses this hex against a creature bonded to her by her skeleton latchkey, she may instead possess her target as if by the magic jar spell.

A zephyr thief must be 18th level to select this hex.

SYLPH WITCH - ZEPHYR THIEF BETA IS ONLINE.

Thematically, it is pretty cool. But I honestly think it is a bit TOO monothematic. What do you think? Should I remove some stuff to make room for more varied powers, like stealing an enemy's voice, or being able to use her key to dismantle constructs, perhaps dimension door uses as a Monk?
Gimme some feedback!

I finally took a look at the Zephyr Thief and I'm kinda meh about it.

I like the underlying idea of the skeleton latchkey, but I don't really think it holds up so well as a complete stand-in for a familiar. Maybe instead of communing with the key, maybe she prepares her spells from a spellbook (which is latched and can only be opened by the key). The key could still be used as an arcane focus for the bonus spells.

The thief's hexes don't really hit home for me either. To me it'd be more interesting if it was based around sleight of hand stealing. Maybe the witch steals things from her opponents (something small, a lock of hair, a button, a token, ect.) and can attatch them to her latchkey (sort of like a fetish/voodoo doll) which grants her advantages like allowing her to extend the range of her spells/hexes or increasing the save DCs. As the chain continues she'd be able to steal and attatch in combat. Just a thought.

SYLPH WITCH - This is already planned out, but any things in particular that inspire this pairing?

I kind of pictured her as more of a Fey-touched than a patron-oriented witch. Maybe with a penchant for stealing the breath/voices of her foes.

I'm really excited to see what you've got in mind!