The synthesist gets evasion?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Just noticed this.

"The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions."

So the synthesist will be getting evasion, devotion, and later imp evasion

The synthesist is a strange class. He is nearly immune to everything in the game except for anti-magic field. Everything else he has high saving throws against and high ac. They have just created superman.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Paladins are still more resilient. Inquisitors too.
And the synthesist doesn't have the damage output of either.

He's not superman. He's better than avg, but at most aquaman.


Protection from Good?


Kryzbyn wrote:

Paladins are still more resilient. Inquisitors too.

And the synthesist doesn't have the damage output of either.

He's not superman. He's better than avg, but at most aquaman.

Does aquaman have a critical weakness?

I tend to disagree about the damage output thing. Paladins might barely keep up against evil enemies. I have not seen a dpr comparison that shows otherwise high paladin dpr.

Paladins have less hp, have less ac, and have slightly better saves. Inquisitors have better initiative(that is all)... actually to be honest I have not made the effort to read terribly far into the inquisitor class. I do not know how awesome they become. My knowledge is limited to... has 3/4 bab, a judgement ability, gets wisdom to initiative, and 6 lvls of spells.

Edit: FYI, I am not b!+&$ing about summoner/synthesist brokenness. I just find that his power is stacked into a zone where the only easy way to deal with it is to focus your efforts on making the power armor disappear. Considering the synthesist will have an impressively high will save, dismissal and banishing are not going to work. magical sleep effects are will saves. He is going to be relatively safe from AoE damage. He has high ac so if you are knocking off the fused eidolon through damage, you are likely killing the entire party. So we are down to touch attack abilities, anti-magic field, and getting the bastard in his sleep.


Mark Sweetman wrote:
Protection from Good?

If the summoner uses his 1 minute summoning ritual, then protection from x and dispel will not work against the fused eidolon.

If he has to do a quickly use the summon eidolon spell for some reason, then protection from x and dispel will work.


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thepuregamer wrote:


Does aquaman have a critical weakness?

Sexy blue fish with memory deficiencies. Oh, and anything that takes place out of the water.


RAW - "While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist"

How is that avoided?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Inquisitor gains the equivalent to evasion with fort and wil lsaves at level 11. At level 5 all of their attacks have "bane" (+2 vs selected type, +2d6 damage; at 11th this becomes +4d6) for level rounds per day that need not be consecutive. Judgements can give pretty much any boost they need, up to three of them at a time from + 1/3 level to AC, Hit, Saves, or +1/2 level in fast healing, ER or DR. If they pick the Anger inquisition they can rage as a barbarian 3 levels lower. With Solo Tactics, they can benefit from teamwork feats without requiring an ally to have them.

They are the perfect solo character class. They have RP class features (bonuses to knowledge checks for enemy weakness, bonus to intimidate and sense motive, tracking as a ranger, always on discern lies, ability to use all detects alignment wise as a paladin) and with great combat ability (dont let the 3/4 BAB fool you).

The synthesist pales in comparison.


Honestly the paladin will have effectively more hit points. The problem is the fact you are reduced to using the physical characteristics of the eidolon. You don't have more actions -- you might have more attacks, but you also have more specific things you are vulnerable to -- touch attacks, banishing, etc.

Also The eidolon still goes away when its hp are up -- and you don't have a means of healing it. Once your suit takes enough damage you are going to need to fall back on something else.

And at level 1 it is quite easy to pull out 10 hp of damage -- evasion or no (maybe 11) and your AC isn't going to be so stellar that you can't be hit. It will be good -- but not perfect. And things such as magic missile, scorching ray and the like are still out there.

So while the synthesist is good he is also much more vulnerable for it as well.


Mark Sweetman wrote:

RAW - "While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist"

How is that avoided?

well just because he can be targeted by spells that hurt outsiders doesn't mean those spells will have an effect. Like I said, I pulled together a sample lvl 10 synthesist last night and his will save was around +17 or more, his fort save was around +12 or so, and his reflex save was around +10( wearing only a cloak of resistance +2 and not yet buffed with heroism).

Before I comment more on that possibility, I would need to see what specific spell attacks you are talking about.

The synthesist can still cast enlarge person on himself(if he so desires) since he has the share spells eidolon ability while he is fused.

Inquisitor sounds nice but bane, judgements, and even pseudo rage are not going to bridge the gap created by a late game strength score in the low 50s and a greater number of attacks.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Honestly the paladin will have effectively more hit points. The problem is the fact you are reduced to using the physical characteristics of the eidolon. You don't have more actions -- you might have more attacks, but you also have more specific things you are vulnerable to -- touch attacks, banishing, etc.

Also The eidolon still goes away when its hp are up -- and you don't have a means of healing it. Once your suit takes enough damage you are going to need to fall back on something else.

And at level 1 it is quite easy to pull out 10 hp of damage -- evasion or no (maybe 11) and your AC isn't going to be so stellar that you can't be hit. It will be good -- but not perfect. And things such as magic missile, scorching ray and the like are still out there.

So while the synthesist is good he is also much more vulnerable for it as well.

Will the paladin effectively have more hp? I would like to see that written up.

Is the synthesist not completely immune at lvl 1? of course not. But then again, who is. 10 damage is going to knock all the other players unconscious. A lvl 1 synthesist is going to have 9 hp of his own and 6.5 or so hp for his eidolon. At first lvl, he can apparently now take ina, so his ac is up to 16 or so + mage armor(so 20 ac naked). I would say that 20 ac and 15 or 16 hp at lvl 1 is pretty good. You will also possibly have 3 attacks and pounce.

Just to reiterate, I am not saying that the synthesist is the most broken, or the L337est, or something else overly general and pointless. I am not saying he is necessarily broken.

I am saying that his offense and defense is stacked in a strange way(He gets an extremely large amount of both). Which I am thinking would lead a dm down the path of either dealing with him ineffectually or always aiming to pop the power armor.

spalding wrote:


but you also have more specific things you are vulnerable to -- touch attacks, banishing, etc.

yes to touch ac, but otherwise, banishing is less of a problem for the synthesist than it is for regular summoners. It will basically always be a 5% chance of your armor popping. If you pick up an ability that allows rerolls, then it will be less than a 5% chance of your armor popping.

spalding wrote:


It will be good -- but not perfect. And things such as magic missile, scorching ray and the like are still out there.

ok... magic missile... check... scorching ray... check... wait, you use scorching ray against lvl 1 parties? Well, I guess only the lucky few make it to lvl 2 in your games(with 4d6 damage averaging 14 damage. on those rare occassions where you roll slightly better, someone is going straight to -10/11)


Because of course I'm only talking about level 1 parties.

Yes the paladin will effectively have more HP -- any round he doesn't drop he spends his swift action to heal with lay on hands. For a quick comparison at level six he heals 3d6 hp each round he takes damage. He'll have at least three uses of this, and its easy to say he'll have 5 (2 from charisma). So that's 10.5 hp 5 times a day for 52.5 extra hp. So 52.5 hp on top of 10 (level 1) + 30 (1/2 +1 per level for 5 levels) + 12 (Con of 14) gives him 52 hp. At level 6 that's effectively 104.5 HP.

The summoner with the same Con is going to have 8+25+12=45 plus his eidolon (5d10 = 30+5 (con of 13) = 35) meaning 80 hp at level 6.

The eidolon can't be healed seperately and only provides the summoner with temporary hp -- temporary hp can't be healed either... and doesn't stack with other sources of temporary hp. So once he's out of that temporary hp he's done for the day unless he spends a second level spell slot each time he wants his eidolon for the rest of the day.

Also since he's using his eidolon's physical stats he's really going to have to boost them with points regularly -- otherwise he's stuck with a 13 con.


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10 Half-Orc Synthesis Summoner (Large Eidolon base form quadruped)

Full Attack DPR vs 24 AC: 107
+1 Hit: 5.4
+1 Damage 5.8
Extra Attack 28

Stats:

HP 165 (77 HP from the summoner’s own CON bonus and favored class + 88 temporary from the Eidolon and its CON bonus)

Large Falchion +22/+17 (BAB 8 + 9 STR + 3 Enchant + 1 WF +2 Heroism – 1 Size)
26 damage (2d6 + 13 Str + 3 Enchant + 3 Arcane Strike)
Bite +17 (BAB 8 + 9 STR + 1 Enchant + 2 Heroism – 1 Size – 2 Secondary)
4 Tentacle +18 (BAB 8 + 9 STR + 1 Enchant + 1 WF + 2 Heroism – 1 Size – 2 Secondary)

STR 29 (12) DEX 18 (10) CON 20 (16) INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 16
Numbers in parentheses are the summoners physical stats when not merged.

AC/Touch/Flat Footed 34/14/30 (10 Base + 4 Mage Armor + 4 Dex + 10 Natural + 4 Barkskin + 2 shield + 1 Deflection – 1 size)

Fort/Reflex/Will +16/+15/+19 (Bonuses +4 resistance +2 circumstance + 2 morale + 2 Iron Will)

Gear/Feats/Spells:

Gear: +3 Falchion, +2/+2/+2 Belt, +4 Cloak of Resistance, +1 Ring of Protection, Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic), Rod of Extend – Lesser, Handy Haversack

Active Spells:
Barkskin (+4 Natural armor enchant)
Heroism (+2 Hit and save morale)
Greater Magic Fang (+1 Enchant to all natural attacks)

Feats:
Weapon Focus (falchion)
Weapon Focus (tentacle)
Arcane Strike
Iron Will
Extra Evolution
Multiattack (bonus)

Evolutions 15 points:
4 Tentacles (4 points)
Large (4 points)
Energy Attacks (2 points)
Arms (2 points)
Pounce (1 point)

I built this using the guidelines from the DPR Olympics so it would be easy to compare to a bunch of other builds. That is it was built using the elite array and the build should have a minimum AC of 24, Fort and Will saves of 8, no consumables and spells have to last 10 min/lvl or longer. I used Tejon’s Exel sheet but had to change the to hit boxes because it was tacking on a -4 to hit with the manufactured weapons, and it cannot account for multiattack. I also had to recalculate the natural attack damage because it assumes that all the natural attacks are getting weapon focus and have the same damage die.

Is this overpowered? He out damages a paladin using smite evil versus an evil outsider, dragon ect., has an AC of 34, stellar saves, can almost always get a full attack with pounce, movement of 40, an effective 165 HP and even with his self-buffs he has a modest amount of spell casting left over to help the party. His HP is actually 20 higher because of the Eidolon's greater CON bonus but the summoner risks dying if he uses those HP and the Eidolon is banished. A regular Eidolon can do that damage but I think what makes the synthesist too good is that its saves and AC are so high because of the Eidolon's CON bonus with the summoner's good will save and the shielded ability. In addition they do not have to share a ring of protection so the synthesist's AC just keeps getting higher. A regular synthesist and Eidolon can only have one cloak of resistance and the summoner is not going to have good fort saves and the Eidolon will have a modest will save giving them a vulnerability.

As to healing I don't think anyone can say with certainty how the merged synthesist works with healing. By RAW yes one cannot heal temporary HP but the source of those temp HP is the Eidolon's regular HP. What does that mean? Does the Eidolon get healed if the summoner is healed? They cannot be targeted separately so are they both targeted? I do not know the answers.

Maybe an Inquisitor is a better solo class I'm not sure but in a party this guy is going to outshine anyone else trying to do melee damage. His touch AC is not great at 14 but whose is? The fighters and paladins from the DPR Olympics thread are no better. Rangers and bards are a few points higher. He can also respond to many situations with Evolution Surge. With one spell he can gain a choice of flying, energy immunity, swimming, burrowing, damage reduction, fast healing, or spell resistance.

He has three self-buffs going so his ring of counterspells is against dispel magic. With his rod of lesser extend he can keep them going a long time. I hear a lot of people saying Dismissal is his weakness but look at that Will save of +19. You might as well say he is as weak towards Dismissal as a fighter is to Flesh to Stone. His real weakness is Antimagic Field because the Eidilon needs spell resistance to get a chance to not be banished. If one is really concerned one can take spell resistance as an evolution later on.

I assumed the summoner cannot wear armor or have a mithral buckler. It does not matter too much now but at higher levels when the summoner could buy a +5 chain shirt and a +5 buckler it does matter. In addition, I assumed that Arcane Strike works with all the Eidolon's attacks.

The summoner put a point into CHA and CON. The Eidolon put a point into CON and STR.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Because of course I'm only talking about level 1 parties.

Yes the paladin will effectively have more HP -- any round he doesn't drop he spends his swift action to heal with lay on hands. For a quick comparison at level six he heals 3d6 hp each round he takes damage. He'll have at least three uses of this, and its easy to say he'll have 5 (2 from charisma). So that's 10.5 hp 5 times a day for 52.5 extra hp. So 52.5 hp on top of 10 (level 1) + 30 (1/2 +1 per level for 5 levels) + 12 (Con of 14) gives him 52 hp. At level 6 that's effectively 104.5 HP.

The summoner with the same Con is going to have 8+25+12=45 plus his eidolon (5d10 = 30+5 (con of 13) = 35) meaning 80 hp at level 6.

The eidolon can't be healed seperately and only provides the summoner with temporary hp -- temporary hp can't be healed either... and doesn't stack with other sources of temporary hp. So once he's out of that temporary hp he's done for the day unless he spends a second level spell slot each time he wants his eidolon for the rest of the day.

I accept your point that the paladin can take more damage over the course of a combat than a synthesist. This is in no way equivalent to him having more hp. His max hp is still low and a front loaded attack will take him down more easily. He can take more damage in a single encounter than a summoner if the damage is doled out slowly and consistently. This also uses up the paladins swift actions. A summoner is not expending actions to have his hp. Though this will fluctuate with lvl.

spalding wrote:


Also since he's using his eidolon's physical stats he's really going to have to boost them with points regularly -- otherwise he's stuck with a 13 con.

I dislike that you are willing to pretend that the eidolon is stuck with 13 con or that he doesn't have ready access to evolutions that majorly boost his con(large and huge). This can put him up to 18 and 22 con before enhancement bonuses.


Lotus, one thing I noticed is that you took extra evolution. By the raw you need to have the "eidolon" class feature. You have fused eidolon class feature. So its no good. So you will drop 1 evolution point. Not a big deal but thought you should know.


I specifically stated he would have to take those -- not that he couldn't. However that's more evo points eaten to simply make up for the deficiency. The paladin still has more HP than the summoner -- you can hardly pretend otherwise -- the eidolon's HP is not the summoner's hp, as such the summoner has less hp -- he simply has a smaller form of the same damage buffer than the paladin has. I really want you to prove how the paladin has *less* actual HP than the summoner or less damage absorption.

The paladin has nothing else to do with his swift actions anyways so it's not like it is a huge action cost in the first place.


Most eidolons have to take large or huge because they are major offensive evolutions. (8 str/4 con, or 16str/8 con are huge bonuses) The con gain is gravy, he is not making up for a deficiency. There is no deficiency. He has high hp regardless of how much you pump con mod because he has up to 15 extra HD.

The eidolons hp is the summoners extra hp. He has it all day once he spends a minute to pull out the eidolon. It doesn't go anywhere and his high saves make it unlikely(95% chance of passing the save) that a banish is going to strip him of his eidolon.

The paladin doesn't have extra hp. he has the ability to heal a small amount of hp every turn. If a lvl 6 paladin is attacked in a surprise round by a pouncing tiger, he is much worse off than the summoner get pounced on. In a relatively easy encounter where damage is doled out slowly, the paladin is better off but that is a relatively unimportant situation to be better in. If the paladin takes 40 damage a turn for a bunch of turns, he will be dead before his lay on hands has a chance to give him more hp than a synthesist fused to his eidolon has.


thepuregamer wrote:

Lotus, one thing I noticed is that you took extra evolution. By the raw you need to have the "eidolon" class feature. You have fused eidolon class feature. So its no good. So you will drop 1 evolution point. Not a big deal but thought you should know.

Your right I was thinking about that the other day but forgot to update the build.


thepuregamer wrote:
Most eidolons have to take large or huge because they are major offensive evolutions. (8 str/4 con, or 16str/8 con are huge bonuses) The con gain is gravy, he is not making up for a deficiency. There is no deficiency. He has high hp regardless of how much you pump con mod because he has up to 15 extra HD.

No a 13 is not a high con. It is never a high con. The summoner does not have 15 extra hit dice. He has temporary hit points -- those are not the same thing. In fact hitting him with level based abilities is a great idea (such as sleep or cloudkill) since he you take him out and his eidolon (which honestly does nothing on its own) drops too. However it's clear to see you can't -- so have fun.


Well that's why thepuregamer's synthisist would be a half-elf and then have a trigger finger on the spell that allows you to reallocate your E-points.

Basically his synthisist is "untouchable" because he has every ability that a synthisist could have and a huge stockpile of magic items to act like little boys with their fingers in his armors holes.


Abraham spalding wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
Most eidolons have to take large or huge because they are major offensive evolutions. (8 str/4 con, or 16str/8 con are huge bonuses) The con gain is gravy, he is not making up for a deficiency. There is no deficiency. He has high hp regardless of how much you pump con mod because he has up to 15 extra HD.
No a 13 is not a high con. It is never a high con. The summoner does not have 15 extra hit dice. He has temporary hit points -- those are not the same thing. In fact hitting him with level based abilities is a great idea (such as sleep or cloudkill) since he you take him out and his eidolon (which honestly does nothing on its own) drops too. However it's clear to see you can't -- so have fun.

Since when do level 10 Eidolons have 13 con?


erik542 wrote:
Since when do level 10 Eidolons have 13 con?

hm....

stat block wrote:


Aquatic (Ultimate Magic)

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., swim 40 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, improved natural armor, gills, swim (2).
Biped

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).
Quadruped

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2).
Serpentine

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap.

Please note how each of those have a Con of 13 -- which is its starting point -- unless you augment to raise it the eidolon has a Con of 13 by default.

Now many people will augment that Con with either the large or huge evolution, or maybe with the stat increase evolution possibly with the stat increases it gets every four hit dice -- but those are not the defaults. So again an eidolon starting out has a Con of 13 unless it is raised with evolutions, or stat boosts from hit dice.

As I have stated from the beginning. If you want to have a Con of more than 13 you must boost the eidolon's Con somehow.

Same for Dex and Strength.

Scarab Sages

Abraham spalding wrote:


Also The eidolon still goes away when its hp are up -- and you don't have a means of healing it. Once your suit takes enough damage you are going to need to fall back on something else.

I think I am missing something here. At 1st level don't you actually have 2 ways to heal it? By casting lesser rejuvenate eidelon or by use of your fused link?


bartgroks wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


Also The eidolon still goes away when its hp are up -- and you don't have a means of healing it. Once your suit takes enough damage you are going to need to fall back on something else.
I think I am missing something here. At 1st level don't you actually have 2 ways to heal it? By casting lesser rejuvenate eidelon or by use of your fused link?

The eidolon doesn't actually have HP -- you have temporary HP. Once that temporary HP is gone the eidolon goes too -- it wouldn't even matter if the eidolon did have independent HP -- all they have to do is get rid of your temporary HP to drive the eidolon away.

Rules support for statement wrote:


The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.

Also you are confused on what the fused link does -- it doesn't heal damage, it prevents the damage in the first place.

Since the eidolon can't be targeted separately from the summoner and the spell lesser rejuvenate eidelon only affects eidelons and you treat all spell effects as the worse choice between your type and the outsider type (not the eidolon type) it won't heal anything.

Scarab Sages

Abraham spalding wrote:


The eidolon doesn't actually have HP -- you have temporary HP. Once that temporary HP is gone the eidolon goes too -- it wouldn't even matter if the eidolon did have independent HP -- all they have to do is get rid of your temporary HP to drive the eidolon away.

Rules support for statement wrote:


The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.

Makes sense. Thanks.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Since the eidolon can't be targeted separately from the summoner and the spell lesser rejuvenate eidelon only affects eidelons and you treat all spell effects as the worse choice between your type and the outsider type (not the eidolon type) it won't heal anything.

Eidolon is not a creature type. Outsider is.

Rejuvenate Eidolon does not depend on creature type, only on whether the target is an Eidolon or not. You and your Eidolon cannot be targeted separately, but you still can affect the Eidolon, just as other spells will.

The ability where you count as either worse type is only for effects related to type.


Nigrescence wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Since the eidolon can't be targeted separately from the summoner and the spell lesser rejuvenate eidelon only affects eidelons and you treat all spell effects as the worse choice between your type and the outsider type (not the eidolon type) it won't heal anything.

Eidolon is not a creature type. Outsider is.

Rejuvenate Eidolon does not depend on creature type, only on whether the target is an Eidolon or not. You and your Eidolon cannot be targeted separately, but you still can affect the Eidolon, just as other spells will.

The ability where you count as either worse type is only for effects related to type.

and specifically states that you count as the worse type for such effects... or is your position that eidolon isn't a type?

Scarab Sages

Nigrescence wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Since the eidolon can't be targeted separately from the summoner and the spell lesser rejuvenate eidelon only affects eidelons and you treat all spell effects as the worse choice between your type and the outsider type (not the eidolon type) it won't heal anything.

Eidolon is not a creature type. Outsider is.

Rejuvenate Eidolon does not depend on creature type, only on whether the target is an Eidolon or not. You and your Eidolon cannot be targeted separately, but you still can affect the Eidolon, just as other spells will.

The ability where you count as either worse type is only for effects related to type.

This makes sense too. Im gradually deciding Synthesist is nearly impossible to play using RAW. It would be ok in a private game where you could ask the DM up front how he was interpreting the rules but trying to play it in PFS would be a headache. Shame because conceptually and mechanically it is really a unique class.


Ævux wrote:

Well that's why thepuregamer's synthisist would be a half-elf and then have a trigger finger on the spell that allows you to reallocate your E-points.

Basically his synthisist is "untouchable" because he has every ability that a synthisist could have and a huge stockpile of magic items to act like little boys with their fingers in his armors holes.

uh oh, I am being misrepresented. How harsh.

I have never once mentioned relying on items.
Being a half-elf is definitely far superior to being anything else but sleep immunity is not the reason for that.

synthesists do not need to have terribly high physical scores(except for a somewhat ok con score) so they can put wisdom up to 16 without too many worries. The class also has a good will save, shielded meld, and direct assess to heroism. Before racial benefits, a lvl 1 summoner can have a +5 will save. If I play a dwarven synergist, I get a +8 will save against spells and effects. lvl 1 sleep is going to have a dc of 11+casting stat. If I am dropping to sleep, the whole group is going down.

Lotus made an example lvl 10 "half-orc" synthesist above and he has a +19 will save. His saves can be very high.

***Also, the talk about being unable to cast specific type only spells on yourself/fused eidolon is incorrect. You still have the share spells ability. Meaning a summoner who is fused with his eidolon can still cast enlarge person on himself/his eidolon. He can still cast any specific type spells because share spells allows him to ignore type restrictions when casting spells from his summoner spell list on his eidolon.

Also, evolution surge/rejuvenate eidolon do not have creature type restrictions. Eidolon is not a creature type.


Abraham spalding wrote:


As I have stated from the beginning. If you want to have a Con of more than 13 you must boost the eidolon's Con somehow.

Same for Dex and Strength.

except most everybody else(your paladin, the fighter, the ranger) also has to boost their con scores as they go. The main difference between the eidolon and them is that the eidolon has ready access to evolutions that significantly boost his con. Which is why your point is nonexistant.


You know what? I'm going to stop here until we actually know how this stupid archetype really works. There are way too many questions left -- like what happens if you give your eidolon a belt of physical perfection and you wear one too? How does you wearing armor interact with the eidolon suit? Taking the mount evolution for other players to ride you? Does the eidolon still need the weapons evolution in order to use your weapons? Does your armor help your AC with the eidolon on the outside (and why the heck should it)?


fair enough. With 3 or 4 confusing zones, it is probably too early to judge this archetype.

Now onto making my lvl 2 alchemist/lvl 12+ drunken mountain four winds monk...I am gonna give him vestigial arm so he can start combat holding 3 or 4 potions. Then I am going to pop his slow time ability and have him drink em all... I may drop him in the advice forum.


thepuregamer wrote:

fair enough. With 3 or 4 confusing zones, it is probably too early to judge this archetype.

Now onto making my lvl 2 alchemist/lvl 12+ drunken mountain four winds monk...I am gonna give him vestigial arm so he can start combat holding 3 or 4 potions. Then I am going to pop his slow time ability and have him drink em all... I may drop him in the advice forum.

Won't work... as presented, and here is why:

The problem is while you do have three standard actions you are limited in what you can do with them to the following:

Quote:


...The monk can use these actions to do the following: take a melee attack action, use a skill, use an extraordinary ability, or take a move action.

Drinking a potion is a standard action you can only take melee attack actions, use a skill, a extraordinary ability, or a move action.

Drinking a potion would be a 'natural ability' which is defined as not a supernatural, spell like or extraordinary ability.

Quote:


Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

However it is a great idea and with a specific trait I think you could get to where it works.


Abraham spalding wrote:
and specifically states that you count as the worse type for such effects... or is your position that eidolon isn't a type?

Had you read my post, you would know the answer to that already.


Nigrescence wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
and specifically states that you count as the worse type for such effects... or is your position that eidolon isn't a type?
Had you read my post, you would know the answer to that already.

All eidolon's are outsider type. We know this. So if you aren't outsider type you aren't an eidolon. If your type is anything but outsider -- you are not an eidolon.

Honestly you would be better off going for the share spell argument since that actually holds water. Any spell that specifically affects only a specific type of creature is checking type.

The answer to the problem is share spell -- which then raises the question of who is being targeted with the spell, you or the eidolon?

The rejuv spell line only affects one target... but you can't be targeted separately from the eidolon and the eidolon can't be targeted separately from you -- meaning that the spell has to affect both of you or neither of you. So you have three hit point totals to contend with -- Your hit points (which we don't know how you lose them) your eidolon's hit points (which again it's fuzzy how you would actually damage it and the temporary hit points you gain while fused... temporary hit points that you can't gain back but always equal your eidolon's hit points which apparently can't be targeted unless you are targeted too.

Just admit it's a catch 22 SNAFU and move on -- there isn't a good answer in RAW because quite franky there isn't an answer yet.


Abraham spalding wrote:
You know what? I'm going to stop here until we actually know how this stupid archetype really works. There are way too many questions left -- like what happens if you give your eidolon a belt of physical perfection and you wear one too?

Summoners share magic item slots with their eidolons. They both can't equip that item.

Quote:
How does you wearing armor interact with the eidolon suit?

You add your armor bonus to its AC.

Quote:
Taking the mount evolution for other players to ride you?

Then other players can ride you.

Quote:
Does the eidolon still need the weapons evolution in order to use your weapons?

You use your proficiencies, not your eidolon's.

Quote:
Does your armor help your AC with the eidolon on the outside (and why the heck should it)?

Why the heck shouldn't it?


Abraham spalding wrote:
You know what? I'm going to stop here until we actually know how this stupid archetype really works. There are way too many questions left -- like what happens if you give your eidolon a belt of physical perfection and you wear one too? How does you wearing armor interact with the eidolon suit? Taking the mount evolution for other players to ride you? Does the eidolon still need the weapons evolution in order to use your weapons? Does your armor help your AC with the eidolon on the outside (and why the heck should it)?

Thaaaatts kind of why I'm never going to allow one in my games. IT's an amazing concept and I'd love to ry one after sitting down with the GM on how to make it work.

My biggest issue is that there's no good way to heal it.


Abraham spalding wrote:
A bunch of irrelevant things.

It's relatively vague in a number of key areas, but your criticisms hold no water. You're over-stating the issue. That's not to say that there is no issue, but you're being a dramatic buffoon about it, and in the process getting quite a few things wrong about the rules.

You also did a good job entirely ignoring my points, which I should expect given that you didn't even seem to have read my post.


All I know is, it isn't broken until a rapid shotting, fast bombing, TWFing nova-ing alchemist (of appropriate level) can't beat it. So far this standard has worked for me.


Abraham spalding wrote:


Won't work... as presented, and here is why:

The problem is while you do have three standard actions you are limited in what you can do with them to the following:

Quote:


...The monk can use these actions to do the following: take a melee attack action, use a skill, use an extraordinary ability, or take a move action.

Drinking a potion is a standard action you can only take melee attack actions, use a skill, a extraordinary ability, or a move action.

Drinking a potion would be a 'natural ability' which is defined as not a supernatural, spell like or extraordinary ability.

Quote:


Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

However it is a great idea and with a specific trait I think you could get to where it works.

poop... and here I thought I was going to have a monk boss standing in the back for the first round while his mooks go forward and the party was going to see him knock 4 potions back(1 via move action and 3 via standard). I may have to fudge that one.


Abraham spalding wrote:
erik542 wrote:
Since when do level 10 Eidolons have 13 con?

hm....

stat block wrote:


Aquatic (Ultimate Magic)

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., swim 40 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, improved natural armor, gills, swim (2).
Biped

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).
Quadruped

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2).
Serpentine

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap.

Please note how each of those have a Con of 13 -- which is its starting point -- unless you augment to raise it the eidolon has a Con of 13 by default.

Now many people will augment that Con with either the large or huge evolution, or maybe with the stat increase evolution possibly with the stat increases it gets every four hit dice -- but those are not the defaults. So again an eidolon starting out has a Con of 13 unless it is raised with evolutions, or stat boosts from hit dice.

As I have stated from the beginning. If you want to have a Con of more than 13 you must boost the eidolon's Con somehow.

Same for Dex and Strength.

Show me an Eidolon that sees real play with 13 con at level 10. You're not going to find one. It's kinda like those mythical wizards that start with only 13 int. Sure in theory it could happen, but it doesn't.

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