+1 Existing Spellcasing Class, prestige issue


Rules Questions


I have a question regarding the gaining of spells per day through prestige classes.

Say I wanted to make an Arcane Trickster as a sorcerer, for example. When I level up, I gain spells per day as though I had gained a level as a sorcerer. I get that. What if, after going arcane trickester for a bit, I dipped back into sorcerer? Would I continue my sorcerer spell progression from where I left off as a sorcerer, or where I left off as an arcane trickester?

For example, I would be 4 sorcerer, and say 5 Arcane Trickster, making my effective sorcerer spell list that of a level 9 sorcerer. Next level I put into sorcerer. Do I gain spells as a 5th level sorcerer (Thereby just adding 1 to my first, second and third level spells known/per day or a 10th level sorcerer?


10th level. But you gain bloodline powers just as a 5th level sorcerer.


Is there any RAW for this? My DM isn't sure about what happens when I go from arcane trickster back to sorcerer, and really, neither am I. Having a source would be great.


If your lvl 5 sorc and you have a prc that grants +1 spellcaating lvl you would cast spells and have spells know of a lvl 6 sorcerer. All other sorcerer abilities not directly connected to caster level or spells known are as a lvl 5 sorcerer.


Yes, I'm well aware of that. But what happens to my spells known and spells per day list when I go from Arcane Trickster back to Sorcerer? I have the spells of a 6th level sorcerer when I'm 5 sorc and 1 AT. So what happens when I become 6 sorc and 1 AT? Do I have the spells of a 7th level sorcerer? While I gain spells known and daily as though I had gained a level of sorcerer, I didn't actually gain a level of sorcerer. So it could make sense that when I gain a level as sorcerer from 5 to 6, I gain spells as a 6th level sorcerer.

Either way, any RAW on the subject?

Dark Archive

Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:

Yes, I'm well aware of that. But what happens to my spells known and spells per day list when I go from Arcane Trickster back to Sorcerer? I have the spells of a 6th level sorcerer when I'm 5 sorc and 1 AT. So what happens when I become 6 sorc and 1 AT? Do I have the spells of a 7th level sorcerer? While I gain spells known and daily as though I had gained a level of sorcerer, I didn't actually gain a level of sorcerer. So it could make sense that when I gain a level as sorcerer from 5 to 6, I gain spells as a 6th level sorcerer.

Either way, any RAW on the subject?

I'm not aware of any RAW as such - its one of those issues where people know how it is "supposed" to work.

I'm not sure how it could work any other way. How can you gain spells as a 6th level sorcerer twice? A 6th level sorcerer gets 3 3rd level spells per day. A sorcerer 5 / AT 1 already gets that, so is the GM saying that if you go Sorcerer 6 / AT 1 you get nothing?


Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
So what happens when I become 6 sorc and 1 AT? Do I have the spells of a 7th level sorcerer?

Yes.

When you gain a level of sorcerer, your sorcerer spellcasting level goes up by 1.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Simple explanation:

For the purposes of SPELLS ONLY, add your sorcerer level and any "+1 to existing spellcaster class" levels you have. This means caster level, spells known and spells per day. You do not get bonus spells from your bloodline unless you actually hit the corresponding level in sorcerer that awards them.

Here's the RAW, copied directly from the Loremaster PrC:

PRD wrote:
Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a loremaster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Note the highlighted part. "As if he had also gained a level." So, for the purposes of spells, your Sor 6/AT 1 has "also gained a level" as a sorcerer, so Sor 7 for spells. Then, when you go back to sorc, you've "gained a level" in Sorc, so Sorc 8 now. Does that help the confusion?


While it does say that, it is also true that it says that for LOREMASTER you gain spells as THOUGH you had gained a level in your previous caster class- Your caster class, however, is still at the same level it was before. And this is all well and good as long as you keep leveling loremaster. The wording becomes sketchy when you go back to your original casting class, because now you have a level 5 sorcerer adding potentially 7th, 8th or 9th level spells. While your CHARACTER level supports this, you gained a level as a sorcerer, and a 5th level sorcerer gains... Not that.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
The wording becomes sketchy when you go back to your original casting class, because now you have a level 5 sorcerer adding potentially 7th, 8th or 9th level spells. While your CHARACTER level supports this, you gained a level as a sorcerer, and a 5th level sorcerer gains... Not that.

It says that you "also gain a level" for the purposes of spells. So, since gaining a level as a sorcerer counts as gaining a level of sorcerer, "also" gaining a level of sorcerer is the same. Therefore, if you are sorcerer 5, and you "also gain" 4 sorcerer levels, you are now sorcerer 9 for spells. When you become sorcerer 6, you are sorcerer 10 for spells, because you are now sorcerer 6 who has "also gained" 4 sorcerer levels for spells.


You are over-analysing the situation.

Isn't it self-evident that a sorcerer 7/AT 1 should have a higher spellcasting level and more spells available than a sorcerer 6/AT 1, regardless of the order that the character gained the levels?


Well, the sorcerer would gain spells- Just more spells known and per day for 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells.

And I do agree- I hope this is how it works. It would be to my benefit if it does work the way it is assumed to work. I'm just looking for solid RAW to show my DM so he has evidence too.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
you gained a level as a sorcerer, and a 5th level sorcerer gains... Not that.

If you look at the spells per day and spells known progression, it notably does not tell you how many spells you GAIN, but rather how many you HAVE at that given level. Therefore, any spells GAINED are irrelevant. Simply consult the chart for your total number of effective levels in sorcerer.


Look at it this way:

it doesn't say that when you go from sorcerer 6 to sorcerer 7, you gain 1 level 1, 1 level 2 and 1 level 3 spell...

it says a sorcerer counting as level 7 for spellcasting has x level y spells... at no time does it say how many spells you gain for level up... only what your total amount of spells IS. And Prestige Classes that increase your spellcasting clearly say they stack with your base class

You are the one substracting the amount of spells a level 7 sorcerer has for a level 6 sorcerer to come up with a progression that isn't there... sure the increases are regular/linear, but nowhere in the rules do they come up with "when you go up in sorcerer you get +x spells".

:-)


Consider it this way: every person that has used a prestige class that advances spellcasting levels since D&D 3.5 came out over 10 years ago has used the same set of rules. It is clearly intended to stack additively, and irrespectively of the order in which you take the levels. If this weren't so, then any caster/prestige class combo would be 10 caster/10 PrC, or 15 caster/5 PrC, and the entry prerequisites that generally allow access somewhere in the level 6-8 range would be largely irrelevant, since anyone expecting to reach levels beyond the end of the PrC would be royally screwed.

Note, also, that you can multi-class more than one PrC that advances spellcasting and they all stack in the same way.


If this helps your GM, think of it this way:

5th level sorcerer, then 2nd level Arcane Trickster, your caster level is 7th level. Now you go back to Sorcerer, and you're a 6th level Sorcerer 2nd level arcane trickster, no matter which side you put the sorcerer level on, you still have 8 caster levels.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Caster level does not equal character level. Your character level progresses directly, on a flat 1 for 1 scale. Every level in any class contributes to your character level.
Your caster level is impacted by a specific class, and any PrC's or special abilities that advance it.
The problem you're bumping into is this thought that you're going "back" to being a sorcerer. You never stopped being a sorcerer. You've just completed your Prestige class progression and are advancing your character through normal class levels. Those spells gained "as though" you gained a level in an additional spell casting class have permanently raised your caster level, so if you have 5 levels of Sorcerer and 6 levels of Arcane trickster, your caster level is 11. You cast spells as an 11th level sorcerer. If you gain an additional level of sorcerer, you now cast spells as a 12th level sorcerer. Your progression has been permanently advanced by your prestige class levels.

"Caster Level: Generally equal to the number of class levels (see below) in a spellcasting class. Some prestige classes add caster levels to an existing class."

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / +1 Existing Spellcasing Class, prestige issue All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.