Glorious Heat + Spark = Unlimited Healing


Rules Questions

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James Risner wrote:
seebs wrote:

recipient is receiving magical healing. That the number is zero

Do you receive a +0 morale bonus to fortitude saves? If so, does the courageous weapon then increase that bonus to +1?

In most games I'm familiar, when you gain +0 of something, you don't gain anything.

Magic 119.8 wrote:
If a source would deal 0 damage, it does not deal damage at all. That means abilities that trigger on damage being dealt won't trigger. It also means that replacement effects that would increase the damage dealt by that source, or would have that source deal that damage to a different object or player, have no event to replace, so they have no effect.
So the whole concept of "I'm providing 0 healing" so I get something that triggers off healing is a full stop no go.

Most creatures have a natural armor bonus of +0. But that +0 can be enhanced by Barkskin or other effects that enhance NA. They do not have an armor bonus inherently, so effects that enhance armor bonuses have no effect. Thus there is a significant difference between a +0 bonus and having nothing at all.


Why didn't Paizo take the chance to close a rules loophole when it had the chance to when the feat was able to be reprinted and updated in Inner Sea Gods?


Millefune wrote:
Why didn't Paizo take the chance to close a rules loophole when it had the chance to when the feat was able to be reprinted and updated in Inner Sea Gods?

This. It just implies that this is the way they wanted the feat to go.


seebs wrote:
The ring of regeneration becomes a lot more useful if you also take Fast Healer and have a decent con bonus, I might add.

Same thing with two characters with a level dip into Oracle of Life using Life Link on one another. It essentially gives them something very similar to fast healing. Can be pulled off by level 2.

They can use it to soak up everyone else's damage too.

This is another rules legal infinite healing option.


If they make the healing effect depend on the spell level, then what's to stop you from using heighten spell with Magical Lineage?

Magical Lineage wrote:
Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
Heighten Spell wrote:
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

So heighten spell increases the effective level of the cantrip to 1. All effects depending on spell level now work off that, including the healing.

Magical Lineage then adds an exception to this, it's actual level counts as one lower for determining the final adjusted level and thus which spell slot is required to prepare it.
Thus the cantrip is heightened to level 1 and counts as a level one spell for the purpose of all effects dependent on spell level, while still requiring only it's original cantrip spell slot. The Faq clearly states that you can't reduce the spell to below it's original level, but in this case that hasn't happened. So isn't there still infinite healing this way, which would also work with the Wizard's Life subschool?


Nope, magical lineage can't reduce slot level beyond spell level. And a heightened spark is a 1st level spell.

This has been clarified several times, and is in the official FAQ.


Gaberlunzie wrote:

Nope, magical lineage can't reduce slot level beyond spell level. And a heightened spark is a 1st level spell.

This has been clarified several times, and is in the official FAQ.

You might want to reread that FAQ, it doesn't state what you say it states. Here it is:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qns

FAQ wrote:

Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level?

No. For example, it won't allow you to alter a wizard's fireball into 2nd-level spell.

The unmodified spell's original level for spark, after modifying it with Heighten spell, is still 0, not 1. The modified spell level is 1. It doesn't matter how many metamagic feats you apply to it, the unmodified (so without any metamagic whatsoever) spell's original level remains unchanged.

So it can't reduce the level to below 0 as per the faq, but it can reduce it back to 0 just fine.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Corodix wrote:
Gaberlunzie wrote:

Nope, magical lineage can't reduce slot level beyond spell level. And a heightened spark is a 1st level spell.

This has been clarified several times, and is in the official FAQ.

You might want to reread that FAQ, it doesn't state what you say it states. Here it is:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qns

FAQ wrote:

Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level?

No. For example, it won't allow you to alter a wizard's fireball into 2nd-level spell.

The unmodified spell's original level for spark, after modifying it with Heighten spell, is still 0, not 1. The modified spell level is 1. It doesn't matter how many metamagic feats you apply to it, the unmodified (so without any metamagic whatsoever) spell's original level remains unchanged.

So it can't reduce the level to below 0 as per the faq, but it can reduce it back to 0 just fine.

Not that FAQ, this FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?

Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.

The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.

For (1), having Heighten Spell doesn't mean any spell you cast with a higher-level slot is automatically heightened; you still have to make the decision to prepare or cast the spell an normal or heightened.
If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell (it doesn't cost you any extra time or any other game "currency").
If you are a spontaneous caster, heightening a spell when using a higher-level spell slot still increases the casting time, just like any other use of metamagic, so you have to weigh the benefits of either
• casting it normally using the higher-level slot
vs.
• increasing the casting time to cast it as a heightened spell and treat the spell as the level of the spell slot you're using.
Example A 10th-level sorcerer could cast fireball using a 3rd-, 4th-, or 5th-level spell slot, it would only be a standard action casting time, would count as a 3rd-level spell, and have a DC of 13 + Charisma bonus. If she had Heighten Spell and wanted to heighten it using a 4th- or 5th-level spell slot, it would have a full-round action casting time, but would count as a 4th- or 5th-level spell and have a DC of 14 + Cha bonus (for a 4th-level spell) or 15 + Cha bonus (for a 5th-level slot).

For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.
Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).

Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).

(Heighten Spell is a weak metamagic feat and has limited utility when combined with other metamagic feats.)

With heighten spell you can't add a level and then subtract it because you have magical lineage. The simplest way to look it is to treat the heightened level as the new base level of the spell.

Scarab Sages

Being objective:

- Is it intended that with a talent (Glorious Heat), with strong pre-reqs, bring back the banished 0-Levels Unlimited Heals?

IF yes. Then let it go with all the esquizofrenic interpretation of rules (no ofense).

IF no. Then let it go with all the esquizofrenic balance reasoning.

Such tricks are labeled as "minmaxed" and are, if not banned, not well-liked in our group (that being about 15-20 years playing togheter). We normally didn't like it, and don't allow it.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Corodix wrote:
Gaberlunzie wrote:

Nope, magical lineage can't reduce slot level beyond spell level. And a heightened spark is a 1st level spell.

This has been clarified several times, and is in the official FAQ.

You might want to reread that FAQ, it doesn't state what you say it states. Here it is:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qns

FAQ wrote:

Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level?

No. For example, it won't allow you to alter a wizard's fireball into 2nd-level spell.

The unmodified spell's original level for spark, after modifying it with Heighten spell, is still 0, not 1. The modified spell level is 1. It doesn't matter how many metamagic feats you apply to it, the unmodified (so without any metamagic whatsoever) spell's original level remains unchanged.

So it can't reduce the level to below 0 as per the faq, but it can reduce it back to 0 just fine.

Not that FAQ, this FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?

Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.

The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.

For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.

Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).

I don't see how what I proposed violates this FAQ. The bolded part is (note that I bolded a different section, the section you bolded I will discuss after this), as it says, another way to look at it. Add heighten first, then the other adjustments. So first heighten it to level 1, then reduce the required spell slot back to level 0 by adding magical lineage on top of it. This Faq clarifies that if you for example maximize a fireball and then heighten it so it requires a level 7 slot, then for the purpose of DCs and other effects it counts as a level 4 spell and not as a level 7 spell, as you only heightened it by one extra level, not by four.

now let's look at the part you bolded:
For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.

Heighten spell is not applied at no cost in the flare example, the cost is that the spell requires a level 1 slot instead of a level 0 slot. Then after heighten spell is applied we apply magical lineage, reducing the cost by 1. Note that the above part clearly says that any increase to the effective level must be paid for using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases. There are no other increases here, only a reduction, so this section of the faq is not violated as it does not even apply in the first place. Also, this FAQ is a question about how heighten spell interacts with other metamagic feats, magical lineage is not even a metamagic feat.

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Corodix wrote:
Then after heighten spell is applied we apply magical lineage, reducing the cost by 1.

Then it is no longer Heightened.

Because a Heightened Spark looks to magical lineage like a 1st level base spell with no metamagic applied.


Kemedo wrote:
Is it intended that with a talent (Glorious Heat), with strong pre-reqs, bring back the banished 0-Levels Unlimited Heals?

They either put it in the book realizing that it provided unlimited healing outside of combat without having to use any "real" character resources, and didn't care, or they completely forgot that it was broken the first time and never took the time to change the original wording. An important part of the supposed intent, for me anyway, is that they did add the line: "worshiper of Sarenrae" into the prerequisites. It means that at some point someone was looking at the feat, and knew that they needed to add something deity specific to it. Either way it doesn't instill me with a whole lot of confidence.


A cost that is no cost is no cost.

Furthermore, reread heighten spell an magical lineage. They are not compatible for several reasons; to begin with, heighten sets the level, not adds to it. Secondly, lowering the spells level with magical linage means that the effect from heighten goes away due to how it is written.


Gaberlunzie wrote:

A cost that is no cost is no cost.

Furthermore, reread heighten spell an magical lineage. They are not compatible for several reasons; to begin with, heighten sets the level, not adds to it. Secondly, lowering the spells level with magical linage means that the effect from heighten goes away due to how it is written.

Heighten spell does not set the level, see the FAQ mentioned by Diego. If heighten spell were to set the level then a maximized fireball, heightened so it uses a level 9 slot would count as a level 9 spell, while it actually only counts as a level 6 spell because it was heightened by only 3 levels, even though it went from a level 3 spell to being a level 9 spell.

Heighten spell wrote:
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

lets take the fireball example, if we maximize it and heighten the spell by 3 levels, then the spell's level is increased by 6 while it's effective level is increased by 3. The further 3 spell level increases of maximize do not adjust the effective level of the spell in any way. It does not change the DC, etc. From this we can conclude that the heightened level mentioned in the feat does not refer to the spell slot required for the spell, but to the original level of the spell + the amount of levels by which you have heightened the spell, as 3+3 != 9. It is the FAQ about Heighten spell, mentioned by Diego, which allows us to draw this conclusion.

then add magical lineage:

Quote:


Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.

Magical lineage says to treat it's actual level (1 after heightened) as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level (so 0). As we just concluded thanks to the Heighten metamagic FAQ, the spells adjusted level is separate from the spells effective level.

So they are most certainly compatible. And Heighten spell most certainly has a cost in this case, that another feature then nullifies this cost does not mean that there was no cost. If you take a -1 penalty to attack and another feature gives you a +1 bonus, then this does not remove the penalty. Both the penalty and bonus are still present. It is no different when combining Heighten spell with magical lineage.


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With how cheap wands of infernal healing are, it's not even a good use of feats to pick up this combo.

Yes it works, yes its legal. Anybody who has a problem with it doesn't understand what optimization looks like.


No, your bolded section does nlt say that. It says to first add heighten spell and then the others, and use that to determie the DC, then add others. So you first add heighten with magical lineage heightening to a level equal to its slot (0th) and then add any other metamagics.

In addition, ross bolding still applies. You MUST pay with a higher spell slot. Did ypu not use an actual igher spell slot? Then ypu broke theules.


DiscOH wrote:


With how cheap wands of infernal healing are, it's not even a good use of feats to pick up this combo.

Yes it works, yes its legal. Anybody who has a problem with it doesn't understand what optimization looks like.

I'd have to disagree with you there, a wand of infernal healing is only going to give six hit points per charge. 1 hp per round x ten rounds in a minute with only one minute of total duration. Getting 300 total hit points worth of healing for 750gp is far less cost effective than gathering together a bunch of fine flammable objects (which nature can usually provide) and getting unlimited healing at 0 cost whenever you want. I can think of a lot of players that have "burned" a feat for a lot less than that.


A wand of continuous cure light wounds will cost 2000 gp (1000gp if you craft it yourself).

For 1000 gp, you have unlimited healing.


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Uhm mystic belmont... No. Thats not what a wand does, thats not what a continuous item does, and thats not how you price custom items.


Gaberlunzie wrote:

No, your bolded section does nlt say that. It says to first add heighten spell and then the others, and use that to determie the DC, then add others. So you first add heighten with magical lineage heightening to a level equal to its slot (0th) and then add any other metamagics.

In addition, ross bolding still applies. You MUST pay with a higher spell slot. Did ypu not use an actual igher spell slot? Then ypu broke theules.

Incorrect, magical lineage says:

Quote:
Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.

Lets add Tenebrous Spell metamagic as well (adjustment of +0). So first we add heighten, then Tenebrous, then magical lineage reduces the increased spell level by 1. Magical Lineage is not applied to one specific metamagic feat, it is applied to the resulting level adjustment after all metamagic feats have been applied. Otherwise it would say that you can reduce the spell level increase of one specific metamagic feat by one. It clearly states feats, plural.

So first all metamagic feats are applied, and then magical lineage modifies the outcome.

In addition, ross bolding does not apply, as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. The bolded part says that you cannot apply heighten spell to a spell at no cost, and then after the colon it specifies what it means with no cost. The meaning of no cost is that you cannot increase the effective spell level of the spell without increasing the required level of the spell slot above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats. Since in this case there are no other spell level increases from other metamagic feats, the entire section does not apply. Also, as I mentioned earlier, that FAQ is related to how heighten spell interacts with other metamagic feats, so it isn't relevant when heighten spell is the only metamagic feat being used.


mysticbelmont wrote:

A wand of continuous cure light wounds will cost 2000 gp (1000gp if you craft it yourself).

For 1000 gp, you have unlimited healing.

You know the adage that floats around the forums occasionally, that the developers put the rules into the hands of intelligent and capable people...

Sometimes I'm not so sure that's true.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
mysticbelmont wrote:

A wand of continuous cure light wounds will cost 2000 gp (1000gp if you craft it yourself).

For 1000 gp, you have unlimited healing.

Except the rules don't really work that way. You can't just use the guidelines. You need to compare the prices to existing similar items too. The rules explicitly state as such.


Than how much would an item cost that gives out cure light wounds unlimited times per day?


Jadeite wrote:

The Glorious Heat feat allows a character to heal an ally half his levels in hit points each time he casts a divine spell with the fire descriptor. Spark is an orison with the fire descriptor.

So, for a single feat, a character now has the option to heal his companions for free as long as he has sufficient fine objects to burn.

That should really hurt the wand of CLW market. And now all clerics are pyromaniacs.

Spark is a Level 0 orison. 1/2 times 0 = 0. Yes, you can heal yourself and party for 0 all day long with spark/glorious heat feat combo.

You're totally correct Jadeite. Healing all day long for 0 will really hurt CLW wand market and clerics.

*sighs and rolls eyes*


Mapleswitch wrote:
Jadeite wrote:

The Glorious Heat feat allows a character to heal an ally half his levels in hit points each time he casts a divine spell with the fire descriptor. Spark is an orison with the fire descriptor.

So, for a single feat, a character now has the option to heal his companions for free as long as he has sufficient fine objects to burn.

That should really hurt the wand of CLW market. And now all clerics are pyromaniacs.

Spark is a Level 0 orison. 1/2 times 0 = 0. Yes, you can heal yourself and party for 0 all day long with spark/glorious heat feat combo.

You're totally correct Jadeite. Healing all day long for 0 will really hurt CLW wand market and clerics.

*sighs and rolls eyes*

Read it again. It is healing for half of character level, not spell level.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

mysticbelmont wrote:

A wand of continuous cure light wounds will cost 2000 gp (1000gp if you craft it yourself).

For 1000 gp, you have unlimited healing.

Not without ignoring the item creation rules and jumping to the last resort chart part of the creation rules.

mysticbelmont wrote:
Than how much would an item cost that gives out cure light wounds unlimited times per day?

Significantly more than Ring of Regeneration or the Ioun stone of 1 hp / hour, since it would be way way way way better. Therefor cost way way way more.

Corodix wrote:
Incorrect, magical lineage says:

You are focusing on Magical Lineage. Ignore it. Focus on Heighten. Heighten isn't your normal metamagic. It doesn't have a cost. It actually changes the base level of the spell. Once changed, magical lineage can't reduce below the new base of 1st level.


andreww wrote:
Mapleswitch wrote:
Jadeite wrote:

The Glorious Heat feat allows a character to heal an ally half his levels in hit points each time he casts a divine spell with the fire descriptor. Spark is an orison with the fire descriptor.

So, for a single feat, a character now has the option to heal his companions for free as long as he has sufficient fine objects to burn.

That should really hurt the wand of CLW market. And now all clerics are pyromaniacs.

Spark is a Level 0 orison. 1/2 times 0 = 0. Yes, you can heal yourself and party for 0 all day long with spark/glorious heat feat combo.

You're totally correct Jadeite. Healing all day long for 0 will really hurt CLW wand market and clerics.

*sighs and rolls eyes*

Read it again. It is healing for half of character level, not spell level.

Yeah, what andreww said.


James Risner wrote:


Corodix wrote:
Incorrect, magical lineage says:

You are focusing on Magical Lineage. Ignore it. Focus on Heighten. Heighten isn't your normal metamagic. It doesn't have a cost. It actually changes the base level of the spell. Once changed, magical lineage can't reduce below the new base of 1st level.

Which is exactly why it does work. Heighten spell, as you say, changes the level of the spell, increasing it. It modifies the base level of the spell, but the original base level of the spell remains the same (which is why the faq for magical lineage is not violated).

Magical Lineage says:

Quote:
When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell

Since Heighten spell is a metamagic feat which adds levels to the spell, magical lineage can be applied. Magical Lineage doesn't mention a cost even once, the only prerequisite is that the base level of the spell is increased by the metamagic feat.

Shadow Lodge

The only difference between the way Heighten Spell's higher level spell adjustment works from any other metamagic feat's is that Heighten Spell is not set. It modifies the way a spell works in some way and increases the spell level slot to do so. Dont confuse the function with the cost. If you are using it to make a Orison use the DCs and Spell Level of a 1st level spell, it is a +1 spell level metamagic adjustment making it a 1st level spell. The cost is +1 spell levels. The trait reduces that by 1, but can not decrease it beyond either +0 or the original, unmodified spell's level (0 in this case).

So it counts as a 1st level spell for IDing, Dispelling, how it interacts with other spells, DCs, etc, but takes a 0 level spell slot only.

As for Glorious Heat, healing is so abundent, and being that you need to be 5th level to cast it (and a Cleric of the primary deity of Healing), I think people see infinite healing and overreact a lot more than its really worth. Most times its not going to matter in combat, and really only good in downtime healing, basically saving the party a little bit of GP at best. But it costs a feat for one of the most Feat starved classes, and outside of Spark, also requires spellcasting to function (plus your action). Seems perfectly fine for a Cleric of the patron of healing to me.


James Risner wrote:
seebs wrote:

recipient is receiving magical healing. That the number is zero

Do you receive a +0 morale bonus to fortitude saves? If so, does the courageous weapon then increase that bonus to +1?

In most games I'm familiar, when you gain +0 of something, you don't gain anything.

I've seen plenty where +0 doesn't get you anything, but still procs side-effects.

Quote:


Magic 119.8 wrote:
If a source would deal 0 damage, it does not deal damage at all. That means abilities that trigger on damage being dealt won't trigger. It also means that replacement effects that would increase the damage dealt by that source, or would have that source deal that damage to a different object or player, have no event to replace, so they have no effect.
So the whole concept of "I'm providing 0 healing" so I get something that triggers off healing is a full stop no go.

Did you seriously just quote rules from an unrelated game as an argument? Because that strikes me as not at all helpful for a discussion of Pathfinder.

Quoting D&D rules could at least make sense for guiding interpretation, but quoting MtG?


andreww wrote:
Mapleswitch wrote:
Jadeite wrote:

The Glorious Heat feat allows a character to heal an ally half his levels in hit points each time he casts a divine spell with the fire descriptor. Spark is an orison with the fire descriptor.

So, for a single feat, a character now has the option to heal his companions for free as long as he has sufficient fine objects to burn.

That should really hurt the wand of CLW market. And now all clerics are pyromaniacs.

Spark is a Level 0 orison. 1/2 times 0 = 0. Yes, you can heal yourself and party for 0 all day long with spark/glorious heat feat combo.

You're totally correct Jadeite. Healing all day long for 0 will really hurt CLW wand market and clerics.

*sighs and rolls eyes*

Read it again. It is healing for half of character level, not spell level.

It was. There are Paizo team posts, they're changing that for PFS play and that is effectively a strong recommendation that everyone change it to use spell level instead of half of character level. They don't usually do errata for books they don't plan to reprint, but they are talking about it because this is a pretty serious bug.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

seebs wrote:
I've seen plenty where +0 doesn't get you anything, but still procs side-effects

Welcome to extreme table variance then, because this concept was a dinner discussion for us tonight after the game. The whole table felt the concept of getting a benefit from +0 is not going to happen at any table they are GMing. Clearly you differ. So you will see no uniform agreed interpretation for the rules on this matter.

seebs wrote:
They don't usually do errata for books they don't plan to reprint, but they are talking about it because this is a pretty serious bug.

There is a Jason post where he bluntly said he wished he had caught this before it went to print, but now it is in print in a book they can't just change it. But the OP fix is recommended for all.

Corodix wrote:
Which is exactly why it does work. Heighten spell, as you say, changes the level of the spell, increasing it.
FAQ wrote:
treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell

They said it was poorly worded and confusing. You are confusing it the same way they have seen others.

When you heighten a spell, you change it from being an orison to a 1st level spell and then your trait can't again lower it to 0th level orison because it looks as if it has always been a 1st level spell using a spell slot.

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James Risner wrote:
seebs wrote:
I've seen plenty where +0 doesn't get you anything, but still procs side-effects

Welcome to extreme table variance then, because this concept was a dinner discussion for us tonight after the game. The whole table felt the concept of getting a benefit from +0 is not going to happen at any table they are GMing. Clearly you differ. So you will see no uniform agreed interpretation for the rules on this matter.

seebs wrote:
They don't usually do errata for books they don't plan to reprint, but they are talking about it because this is a pretty serious bug.

There is a Jason post where he bluntly said he wished he had caught this before it went to print, but now it is in print in a book they can't just change it. But the OP fix is recommended for all.

Corodix wrote:
Which is exactly why it does work. Heighten spell, as you say, changes the level of the spell, increasing it.
Heighten FAQ wrote:
treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell

They said it was poorly worded and confusing. You are confusing it the same way they have seen others.

When you heighten a spell, you change it from being an orison to a 1st level spell and then your trait can't again lower it to 0th level orison because it looks as if it has always been a 1st level spell using a spell slot.

You don't agree, so welcome to table variance.


seebs wrote:
It was. There are Paizo team posts, they're changing that for PFS play and that is effectively a strong recommendation that everyone change it to use spell level instead of half of character level. They don't usually do errata for books they don't plan to reprint, but they are talking about it because this is a pretty serious bug.

I think you may have missed part of the conversation. Glorious Heat was just reprinted in the Inner Sea Gods book. This book just left the printers not too long ago. The only thing that changed from the original Faiths book to ISG is that they added "worshiper of Sarenrae" to the prerequisites. Yes, PFS has changed the way it works, but the "official" (whatever that means) rules say "half character level" healing. They didn't errata it the first time because they don't change books that won't be reprinted, but then they went ahead and reprinted it in a new book without changing it.

Shadow Lodge

James Risner wrote:
James Risner wrote:
seebs wrote:
I've seen plenty where +0 doesn't get you anything, but still procs side-effects
Welcome to extreme table variance then, because this concept was a dinner discussion for us tonight after the game. The whole table felt the concept of getting a benefit from +0 is not going to happen at any table they are GMing. Clearly you differ. So you will see no uniform agreed interpretation for the rules on this matter.

Good to know that barkskin does nothing to anyone who doesn't have at least a +1 natural armor bonus.


Unlimited Party Healing (by level 2)

Human Character 1 (CON 13+):
Level 1: Unbreakable Fighter (feats: Endurance, Diehard feats)
Human (feat: Fast Healer)
Level 2: Life Oracle (Life Link revelation)
Level 3+ Anything

Any Race Character 2:
Level 1: Life Oracle (Life Link revelation)
Level 2+ Anything

That is a powerful combination at the start of an adventure path.


James Risner wrote:


Significantly more than Ring of Regeneration or the Ioun stone of 1 hp / hour, since it would be way way way way better. Therefor cost way way way more.

A use activated or continuous item with a spell effect is spell level * caster level * 2000 gp. If you wanted the item to not take up a slot, it would be twice the cost (such as a ioun stone)

So, cure light wounds is a level 1 spell, and if you wanted it to heal 1d8+1, it would be caster level 1. 1*1*2000 gp is 2000 gp.

What am i missing, since the item it mentions is a lantern of revealing that has a invisibility purge spell effect that is continuous?


James Risner wrote:


Corodix wrote:
Which is exactly why it does work. Heighten spell, as you say, changes the level of the spell, increasing it.
Heighten FAQ wrote:
treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell

They said it was poorly worded and confusing. You are confusing it the same way they have seen others.

When you heighten a spell, you change it from being an orison to a 1st level spell and then your trait can't again lower it to 0th level orison because it looks as if it has always been a 1st level spell using a spell slot.

You left out a part of the quote which is quite important, let me add the full sentence:

Quote:
treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version

When you heighten a spell you change it's level for all effects related to that level, including DCs, etc. This changes the base level of the spell, but it does not change the original level of the spell, that will always remain 0. You say that after heightening it, the spell is treated as if it was always level 1, but nowhere in the feat or faq does it state that the original level of the spell is treated as if it was always at the new increased spell level. The above sentence even says that the spell is treated as if it were naturally a higher level than the standard version, so clearly the original spell's level remains unchanged.

So when Heighten spell is applied, the spell is treated as if it's level is X higher than the spell's original level (X being the amount of levels by which the spell has been heightened), thus it's spell level has been increased by X. if X is more than 0 then a metamagic feat has been used to add at least one level to the spell, thus magical lineage can be used to reduce X by 1, to a minimum of 0.

You seem to be confusing which part of Heighten spell was so confusing that it needed a faq in the first place, it was indeed worded very poorly.
Look at Heighten spell and at the faq (also look at the question stated at the start of the faq, it is about how heighten spell interacts with other metamagic feats. Do you see other metamagic feats in the example with spark? Magical Lineage isn't a metamagic feat, so no, so this faq doesn't even apply here), the part of the feat which was so confusing is the following:
"All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level."

Add in quicken on a fireball and use heighten spell so it requires a 9th level slot. This can be read as if you have heightened the spell to 9th level, while you actually heightened it by only two levels, to 5th. This is what the faq clarifies, that you can't double dip heighten with other metamagic feats.


I'm curious, is something broken about unlimited healing? I though the game expected healing between encounters.


andreww wrote:
Mapleswitch wrote:
Jadeite wrote:

The Glorious Heat feat allows a character to heal an ally half his levels in hit points each time he casts a divine spell with the fire descriptor. Spark is an orison with the fire descriptor.

So, for a single feat, a character now has the option to heal his companions for free as long as he has sufficient fine objects to burn.

That should really hurt the wand of CLW market. And now all clerics are pyromaniacs.

Spark is a Level 0 orison. 1/2 times 0 = 0. Yes, you can heal yourself and party for 0 all day long with spark/glorious heat feat combo.

You're totally correct Jadeite. Healing all day long for 0 will really hurt CLW wand market and clerics.

*sighs and rolls eyes*

Read it again. It is healing for half of character level, not spell level.

... you read it again

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2metv?Glorious-Heat-Spark-Unlimited-Healing#43
Mark Moreland (Paizo Developer): "Were we to reprint the book, we would change the Glorious Heat feat to grant the fire spell's spell level in healing instead of character level. This keeps unlimited use orisons from being spammed, and 1st level spells from being abused at higher levels. This clarification will appear in the July update to the Pathfinder Society Additional Resources document."

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2metv&page=2?Glorious-Heat-Spark-Unlimited- Healing#73
Jason Bulmahn (Paizo Lead Designer): "Unlimited healing at the cost of a feat and an orison slot is just too good. This is a fix. It is neither elegant, nor my preferred solution (which would have been to catch this before it went to print, but mistakes do slip through), it is simply a fix for the OP system. This fix will go into official campaign documentation, unless Mark and Hyrum decide that instead a ban is more appropriate."


If they wanted to prevent mistakes from slipping through, how did it slip through twice?

Shadow Lodge

Sarrah wrote:

... you read it again

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2metv?Glorious-Heat-Spark-Unlimited-Healing#43
Mark Moreland (Paizo Developer): "Were we to reprint the book, we would change the Glorious Heat feat to grant the fire spell's spell level in healing instead of character level. This keeps unlimited use orisons from being spammed, and 1st level spells from being abused at higher levels. This clarification will appear in the July update to the Pathfinder Society Additional Resources document."
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2metv&page=2?Glorious-Heat-Spark-Unlimited- Healing#73
Jason Bulmahn (Paizo Developer): "Unlimited healing at the cost of a feat and an orison slot is just too good. This is a fix. It is neither elegant, nor my preferred solution (which would have been to catch this before it went to print, but mistakes do slip through), it is simply a fix for the OP system. This fix will go into official campaign documentation, unless Mark and Hyrum decide that instead a ban is more appropriate."

And then, when they reprinted it in ISG 3 years later... they didn't change to be based on spell level.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
mysticbelmont wrote:
James Risner wrote:


Significantly more than Ring of Regeneration or the Ioun stone of 1 hp / hour, since it would be way way way way better. Therefor cost way way way more.

A use activated or continuous item with a spell effect is spell level * caster level * 2000 gp. If you wanted the item to not take up a slot, it would be twice the cost (such as a ioun stone)

So, cure light wounds is a level 1 spell, and if you wanted it to heal 1d8+1, it would be caster level 1. 1*1*2000 gp is 2000 gp.

What am i missing, since the item it mentions is a lantern of revealing that has a invisibility purge spell effect that is continuous?

This. Second sentence.

It says the following:

The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide.

Further down, in the last paragraph below the table, it also has this to say:

Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

Game developers have backed this up again and again. After all, what is the point in spending 50,000+ gold on a +5 weapon, when you can get a continuous true strike weapon for only ~8,000gp gold?

Answer: You can't. You shouldn't. No sane GM should ever allow such a device as anything less than an artifact. Certainly not for a few thousand gold.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
mysticbelmont wrote:
James Risner wrote:


Significantly more than Ring of Regeneration or the Ioun stone of 1 hp / hour, since it would be way way way way better. Therefor cost way way way more.

A use activated or continuous item with a spell effect is spell level * caster level * 2000 gp. If you wanted the item to not take up a slot, it would be twice the cost (such as a ioun stone)

So, cure light wounds is a level 1 spell, and if you wanted it to heal 1d8+1, it would be caster level 1. 1*1*2000 gp is 2000 gp.

What am i missing, since the item it mentions is a lantern of revealing that has a invisibility purge spell effect that is continuous?

This

PRD wrote:

Magic Item Gold Piece Values

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

and this

PRD wrote:

Pricing New Items

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.

and this

PRD wrote:


Lesser strand 9,600 GP
SPECIAL BEAD TYPE SPECIAL BEAD ABILITY
Bead of blessing Wearer can cast bless. (CL 1st)
Bead of healing Wearer can cast his choice of
(CL 5th) cure serious wounds, remove
blindness/deafness, or remove
disease.

9.600 gp for 1 bless and 1 CSW/day.

And you want to get 14.400 CLW for 2.000 gp.

Or you can look the price of a wand of CLW.


You also can't continuous an instantaneous effect spell.

I mean, you could, but the second you do, the effect is over and you spent 2000 gp for nothing.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Serum wrote:
Good to know that barkskin does nothing to anyone who doesn't have at least a +1 natural armor bonus.

Irrelevant as the spell spells out a fix for not having natural armor.

mysticbelmont wrote:
A use activated or continuous item with a spell effect is spell level * caster level * 2000 gp.

If you are serious with that comment and not just being funny, then google or start a new thread asking that question. The rules don't work the way you are saying here.


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Serum wrote:
Sarrah wrote:

... you read it again

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2metv?Glorious-Heat-Spark-Unlimited-Healing#43
Mark Moreland (Paizo Developer): "Were we to reprint the book, we would change the Glorious Heat feat to grant the fire spell's spell level in healing instead of character level. This keeps unlimited use orisons from being spammed, and 1st level spells from being abused at higher levels. This clarification will appear in the July update to the Pathfinder Society Additional Resources document."
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2metv&page=2?Glorious-Heat-Spark-Unlimited- Healing#73
Jason Bulmahn (Paizo Developer): "Unlimited healing at the cost of a feat and an orison slot is just too good. This is a fix. It is neither elegant, nor my preferred solution (which would have been to catch this before it went to print, but mistakes do slip through), it is simply a fix for the OP system. This fix will go into official campaign documentation, unless Mark and Hyrum decide that instead a ban is more appropriate."

And then, when they reprinted it in ISG 3 years later... they didn't change to be based on spell level.

This! The Mark Moreland and Jason Bulmahn quotes are from three years ago, where they said they would change it to spell level if they reprinted it, but then they went ahead and reprinted last month and didn't change it.


MendedWall12 wrote:
This! The Mark Moreland and Jason Bulmahn quotes are from three years ago, where they said they would change it to spell level if they reprinted it, but then they went ahead and reprinted last month and didn't change it.

This is what I want to know. Was it intentional? Should we start a new thread/post this elsewhere or should we continue to necro this thread?


The only ridiculous thing here is that people think a feat that gives a spell's level in hp and +1 to attack (per the new ruling) when a spell with a specific descriptor is cast is worth a feat slot.

You could literally make this for any spell and I wouldn't consider the new write up of it worth a feat.

Grand Lodge

This is a silly discussion. The proposal for unlimited healing is utter cheese. From the above comments, many players seem to feel entitled to unlimited healing between fights. This sense of entitlement is a bad thing that should be painfully squashed by the GM.

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