Can an action be readied with the trigger for the action being "when the duel begins"?
For example, I want to cast a spell, or charge, or fire an arrow, as soon as the duel begins, but before anyone takes their turn. The reason I am bringing this up is because the GM is saying that you cannot ready an action out of combat, and is saying that as such, I cannot prepare an action right before the start of a duel.
I can't find any rules that say I am unable to do this, but he remains adamant that I need a surprise action to be able to do this. I want to be sure I am not missing anything in the rules about this. Am I?
I would not suggest Mythic Sustenance, as you could just get a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone for 4,000 gold and not have to worry about food and water (less if your group has a crafter). An Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone would help with air, though that is decently expensive at lower levels (costing 18,000 gold). It really depends on how much your group relies on magic items. Sleepless could also be switched out with a magic item, though you may not to want to need that item, or you may want to spend the gold on other stuff.
Also, do not forget that you can take Mythic Spellcasting up to 3 times, though you really don't need to worry about that, as you'll be focused on Shocking Grasp. Abundant Casting may be useful, since, from what I understand, it will allow you to use Shocking Grasp twice for the price of one (so you don't have to spend a many points from your Arcane Pool on casting it).
The Slayer's Knack feat would be fun to bake into the class somehow.
That would be nice to have for the Slayer's Favored Target, though it may end up being too strong since they can get multiple Favored Targets and switch them out each encounter.
Also, as I have said before, why does the Investigator get more Sneak Attack dice when the Slayer is suppose to be the one more focused on damage?
We'll be reviewing all classes in this playtest, including whether the investigator's power level (and sneak attack) need to be adjusted).
When I had said this, I had been using it to support my opinion that the Slayer should get more Sneak Attack dice, as the strength of the Investigator is a discussion for another thread.
Also, what do you think of giving the Slayer the Poison Use ability?
Strangely, I seem to view the Slayer as a version of Riddick.
I view him as having most of the same abilities he currently has,but with the ability to befriend animals as a Ranger. He would not have an animal companion as a class ability, however.
I imagine a slayer to be more like Chase, a Warden from the Sword of Truth book series. He carries an arsenal with him and is prepared to use various tactics to take out the threat.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, what is your personal opinion on these ideas?
-Sneak attack dice at level one
-The slayer combat styles I posted last page
-Giving Slayers bluff to go with Disguise
#1: I'm wary of another class granting sneak attack at level 1, it makes it too easy to multiclass and stack sneak attack at a better rate than the rogue, at least at 2nd level.
I don't even know what class the Slayer could take to make #1 happen, as Rogue and Investigator can't be taken due to the Alternate Class list for Slayer.
Also, as I have said before, why does the Investigator get more Sneak Attack dice when the Slayer is suppose to be the one more focused on damage?
Analogy: Cooking
A wizard follows the recipe. He follows it perfectly every time. He doesn't really understand why his food turns out the way it does, except that if he follows the recipe, it'll be perfect. Why does basil taste good in some dishes and not in others? That's anyone’s guess. But he has a big ol cookbook with a ton of recipes, and he could look up which ones have basil in them for you... He is 'structured' and a perfectionist.
A sorcerer doesn’t have the time or inclination to read some silly book. He has a nose for cooking. He's learned to perfect a number of recipes, and he makes them well. If something isn't quite right, he can just tell, and can probably figure out how to fix it....
I think of it more as engineering…
A wizard specializes in coming up with and following designs when building something.
A sorcerer throws stuff together and sort of hopes it works, and I it does, they throw stuff together in the same order to use again.
An Arcanist follows designs, but replaces some stuff with other items he threw in, and also focuses on reverse engineering.
I take your magic and turn it again you? Did anyone else think of the Mord-Sith from the Sword of Truth series?
I didn't before but now I am.
That makes two classes that remind me of characters from Sword of Truth.
Remember Chase, the Warden in Wizard's First Rule, the first book in the series? When I think of the Slayer class, I keep imagining Chase, just carrying around an arsenal and using various tactics to fight, rather than being a straight up fighter or a ranger with Favored Enemy (Evil Outsider).
I have a feeling people are going to start comparing Sword of Truth characters to these new classes…
Bloodrager is a ridiculous name, and they could have been called something like "The Savage Sorcerer" or "The War Caster" or "The Rage Mage" "The Battle Caster" or something else along those lines.
One thing not mentioned: What if a Half-Elf has BOTH classes as favored classes?
They are only gaining levels in one class, let's say Slayer. They start off as Slayer, and choose that they can get the Rogue Favored Class Bonus. Choosing Ranger and Rogue as a Half-Elf wouldn't help because they are gaining levels in neither of those classes, rather, they are gaining levels in Slayer.
This is something I am for, a class that uses a pool to cast spells in a way similar to the Magus, but much better, changing it so that it is used more for spells, then just recalling them, and memorizing them. The new concept seems to me like a walking Dispel Magic that turns the magic they've dispelled into other spells.
I put a Slayer down below. I'm not usually that good at optimizing with classes as I prefer to just go with what I can find for the class and concept when I level up. The character, however, should be rather good in this case.
The Slayer:
Level 15 Two-Weapon Slayer
Ability Scores
STR – 16 (Including +2 from human, +1 From levels)
DEX – 19 (Including +2 from human (Dual Talent), +2 from levels)
CON – 10
INT – 14
WIS – 12
CHA – 13
ALTERNATE HUMAN TRAIT – Dual Talent
Or (Using an Agile Weapon)
STR – 10
DEX – 20 (+2 From Human, +2 from Levels)
CON - 10
INT - 14
WIS - 12
CHA – 14 (+1 from Levels)
Feats
1 – Two–Weapon Fighting
2 (Combat Trick/Finesse Slayer) - Weapon Finesse
3 – Double Slice
5 – Squire (Grants a Cohort at your level -3, becomes -2 at level 7 when Squire become Leadership)
For a Two-Weapon Slayer, it is better to make a character that uses both DEX and STR that uses DEX in terms of damage, because, while they may get less damage from TW Rend, they deal 12 more damage from their Ability Score. I also gave the Slayer the Squire/Leadership feat so that they can get either a Damage Sponge to flank with, or another Slayer/Rogue to deal even more Sneak Attack damage with.
EDIT: I forgot about Piranha Strike. I will add that into the damage for Stat Block 2. I also didn't realize that Power Attack and Piranha Strike halve damage for off-hand attacks.
Increased threat range makes it less streaky, yes, but you have to admit that relying on a 1 in 4 chance to even trigger the possibility of a crit, followed by having to confirm it, is much less reliable than simply getting a chance to hit it and do damage. Theoretically, high risk (missing) balances high reward (critting), but save that for some kind of gambler class. Slayer, to me, says reliable and hardhitting. That currently seems to be the intent, minus unreliable sneak attack. I understand that any class can crit, but there's a difference between being able to crit, and being reliant on crits. Even if, in becoming reliant, you make crits more, but not very, reliable.
My suggestion was RIDICULOUSLY large threat range by adding the only stacking "keen" abilities in the game.
So with a weapon optimized for reliable crits it's only a gamble if you can expect to hit on a 2-6 or 2-8 anyway. In most cases i would expect a higher chance of hitting and criting with the ability than hitting on a 3rd iterative at -10 BAB.
I do agree that martial debuffing probably doesn't have much use between casters and combat lasting 2-4 rounds anyway so reducing ability scores or attack bonuses by a couple of points won't change anything.
That said if the debuffs were on the order of dispelling/lose standard action/lose move action then i think it would be worth it.
HOLY CRIT RANGE BATMAN!!!
Your suggestion seems more like a very weird archetype or PrC rather than a base class. I would be interested in seeing this happen at some point for a Slayer Archetype, but again, not for the base class.
Those are feats and talents. Look at the slayer talents. That training is supposed to be weapon focus.
The greater weapon focus can just be replaced with greater iron will or something since thats pretty much neccessary.
I got that they were feats and talents, I was just posting that entire section to show where I found the part the confused me. Also, I did not realize the talent that gives Weapon Focus was called Weapon Training.
Also, this class still needs a good Second Save. Fort could be given from the Ranger, or Will because people really want Will in this class.
10th level Human Slayer of 2WF
STR: 16
Dex: 21
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
Feats+talents
1. Weapon Finesse, two weapon fighting
2. Weapon training Short sword
3. Power attack
4. Talent for favored terrain (most appropriate for setting)
5. Iron will
6. Combat trick: Improved two weapon fighting
7. Greater weapon focus Short sword
8. Slowing strike
9. Double Slice
10. Opportunist
????
Insain Dragoon wrote:
2. Weapon training Short sword
Weapon Training is a Fighter class ability
Insain Dragoon wrote:
7. Greater weapon focus Short sword
This requires 8 levels in Fighter
Also, I'm designing a level 15 Slayer, level 15 Ranger, a Level 15 Rogue, and possibly a Rogue 8/Ranger 7 or Rogue 7/Ranger 8 if I feel like it. They'll be focused on Two-Weapon Fighting, and I'll post them here afterwards with a comparison.
Honestly, this class does need a higher Sneak Attack, and something that allows it to be used more easily. It could have a different trigger for this class, or Slayer could, instead, have an ability that allows the, to flank (at least temporarily) without an ally, or an easier way to make an enemy flat-footed.
I doubt there will be more "free" sneak attack abilities because there already is one and it's an advanced talent AND it's once per day AND it requires adjacent, so they consider that to be a really strong ability.
What if sneak attack was replaced with crit based abilities? I'm pretty sure that would be unique to this class.
Something like:
Increase threat range of weapons by one (after keen, etc.)
Bonus crit feats
Change the save or die talent to autocrit on hit
I would be interested in talents and/or an archetype focused on crits, but not as a replacement to Sneak Attack (unless it was very strong), and preferably not for the default class.
This class is pretty good mechanically. I would like it to get the poison use we are strippin from the Investigator. My onky concern is with the party role. Essentially this is a Serial Killer base class. He might be more fitting as an evil PrC (like some sort of...assassin). Maybe we csn lighten him up a bit, make him more of a scout/skirmisher than a killer?
I think there should be a special poison use archetype or Poisoner prestige class for the Slayer to qualify. Or a slayer talent focused on poison. But I see the Slayer as a full BAB class as being more focused on killing opponents in a combative sense. Poisoning seems more up a spellcasting/skill based assassin approach. The Slayer is all about sniping from afar, or getting close and stabby.
I don't necessarily see the Slayer as evil only, although yes, it's the ideal class for Red Mantis assassins and stuff. But I could also see it be appropriate for vigilantes, freedom fighters, skirmishers that operate behind enemy lines, etc.
The Slayer isn't just getting close and stabbing, or shooting from afar. I imagine them as having a large arsenal to choose from, and poison would be fitting, especially with Sneak Attack.
Here's a question, since the bloodrager is a hybrid of barbarian and sorcerer, would a robe of arcane heritage progress their bloodline powers?
Currently, they would not, as the robes say "…Sorcerer Bloodline…" and "…treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher…" though they may change it once the book is released, or add a different version for the Rage Mage (I personally like saying this name more than Bloodrager, it's just easier to say).
EDIT: This also seems to be the same situation with the Rage Mage's bloodlines and Eldritch Heritage for characters of other classes.
The Scarred Witch Doctor is an archetype for Witch and the fact that it uses a Physical ability score for casting is something weird, and unique to that archetype (if it were STR, they could just punch reality).
About Inquistor and Paladin… I have no real comment as the only experience I have in those two are the Inquisitor of Sarenrae I made for a friend, and the Paladin I'm currently playing in WoTR, who just reached level 4 during the last session.
One way to do favored class bonus, at least for now, would be to have the player choose one of the two classes on the Alternate Class list for their class and allow them to take the bonus for the class they chose. The choice for which class they could get the bonus from would be made at level 1 and could not be changed.
- Surprise Shift (Ranger Skirmisher Trick) usable Wis times per day (minimum 1)
- Sniper: as a swift action target creature within range of your Sneak attack is flat footed to the next Ranged Sneak attack you make this turn. Use this ability Wisdom times per day.
I think that all of these would be good except for the limits.
I don't want this class to be forced to spread too thin, so either no limit, or have the limit be 3+DEX. This class doesn't use WIS to much, though it is still possible to use a decent amount. Relying on it for an ability, however, I wouldn't want for this class as you still need to spend points on other ability scores.
Is it just me, or does it seem kinda weird that the Slayer has less Sneak Attack dice than the Investigator...
Sure, the Slayer has Favored Target, but the Investigator doesn't seem that much of a combatant, and can still do more total sneak attack damage in one round as a full-attack than the Slayer.
It may be a good idea to at least raise the Sneak Attack dice amount for the Slayer by one or two.
This class is pretty good mechanically. I would like it to get the poison use we are strippin from the Investigator.
That... actually makes sense, since this class does seem like one that would use poison for fighting.
Coridan wrote:
My onky concern is with the party role. Essentially this is a Serial Killer base class. He might be more fitting as an evil PrC (like some sort of...assassin). Maybe we csn lighten him up a bit, make him more of a scout/skirmisher than a killer?
I do not agree with this. An archetype to be a scout/skirmisher I would be fine with, but not as the main class. If they hunt evil outsiders while aiding good outsiders, that isn't evil, but they still use their abilities. The class isn't really the Serial Killer class, it's more like a Bounty Hunter, but not necessarily.
Personally it should get a max 5d6 sneak attack but it's chosen target is always considered flat footed. If the target as uncanny dodge then the slayer has to be a level higher for it to work. Basically it studies a target in knows where too consistently strike it to get sneak attack damage.
This is an idea I like, though I am afraid that this may space out sneak attack dice too much. A talent that allows a Slayer to always sneak attack their favored target would be nice and much preferred.
Alex Mack, the thing about it being a martial class is that they manage to make it using two classes that are both skill monkeys. This class does need to be a bit of a skill monkey because they get a good amount of skills, but they don't have enough points to spread among the skills.
You got any stats for players who are averse to dumping?
Give me about 5 minutes and I'll have a set-up for that, since I hate having dump stats. I avoid having stats go under 10 unless it's part of the character concept.
These are using Human as the Race, if you request a race I could see about coming up with stats.
15 Points
STR - 10 (Assuming you rely on Favored Target and/or Sneak Attack, and you don't carry to much)
DEX - 16 (Including +2 from being Human)
CON - 10 (Has d10 Hit die already)
INT - 14 (Those Extra Skill points are always useful, and it is good to be the smart guy)
WIS - 12 (To at least assist Survival, though it could be higher)
CHA - 13 (Always good to be the charming guy, especially if you like roleplaying)
For 20 Points, I'd put the 5 points either all into Strength for bonus damage and increased carrying capacity, or raising CHA to 14, and WIS to 14.
Hrm. I feel you should really lower Dex and use a two hander and a bow for low point builds. Or a sword and buckler. That could be cool.
Two Weapon Fighting just doesn't work well without nice stats, but this way you'll put out solid damage and make good use of that Martial Proficiency. I kept your roleplaying stats the same =)
I'll give you that, though I usually play a Two Weapon Rogue when I do play one, so I was biased in that.
I'm waiting for a Dev to come to this thread, see this conversation which has gone on for hours, and think "What the heck have they been talking about this whole time?"
Edit: I'm not used to having access to medium armor, shields, martial weapons AND sneak attack in one class.
I would put put that 12 in int, since that determines the DC for some abilities. Optional, but at least 3.
Assassinate, Slowing Strike, and your Capstone. Its not a great idea and Save or Dies are lame anyways. I don't see the appeal unless you really want to make Bluff work.
Now grabbing 13 Charisma for Eldritch Heritage. That could be cool.
Grab Improved Eldritch Heritage when possible and go for Orc or Abyssal, and your doing amazing damage with a bonus from Strength. I'm currently going for the Orc Bloodline with Mythic Eldritch Heritage in WoTR, and it seems that this bonus damage would benefit the Slayer also.
You got any stats for players who are averse to dumping?
Give me about 5 minutes and I'll have a set-up for that, since I hate having dump stats. I avoid having stats go under 10 unless it's part of the character concept.
These are using Human as the Race, if you request a race I could see about coming up with stats.
15 Points
STR - 10 (Assuming you rely on Favored Target and/or Sneak Attack, and you don't carry to much)
DEX - 16 (Including +2 from being Human)
CON - 10 (Has d10 Hit die already)
INT - 14 (Those Extra Skill points are always useful, and it is good to be the smart guy)
WIS - 12 (To at least assist Survival, though it could be higher)
CHA - 13 (Always good to be the charming guy, especially if you like roleplaying)
For 20 Points, I'd put the 5 points either all into Strength for bonus damage and increased carrying capacity, or raising CHA to 14, and WIS to 14.
You got any stats for players who are averse to dumping?
Give me about 5 minutes and I'll have a set-up for that, since I hate having dump stats. I avoid having stats go under 10 unless it's part of the character concept.
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
The thing is, it seems that Sneak Attack is what it comes down to. People who play Rogue would have problems using Sneak Attack, and it is half the class. With Slayer, it doesn't take up as much space on the class, but it is still important for it.
Also Scavion, when designing a character concept, I prefer to see what I can do without relying on magic items because those specific ones aren't always available. A class has to be able to effectively rely on it's own abilities.
No Magic item specifically makes or breaks my build. Unless you can't even get your hands on a Belt of a Dex +2 in your games in which case thats super brutal and I'm sorry for you.
In Kingmaker, almost all the gold went into the Treasury, so by level 14, I had about 5,000g, a normal Rapier, two Aklys' I decided to get, and a +1 Cloak of Resistance I got as a reward I think during book 2. The GM later said that I got a raise after I brought back the character from a single level retirement while I tried out a Samurai Jack character (which lead to about 4 other characters by other players based off of comics and shows).
Ouch. My players had money coming out the ears when I ran Kingmaker for them and had to tell em not to sit around making money too much or I'll smite them. You really gotta build that Alchemist/Herbalist so you can sell the minor item for BP to pay for your kingdom. Just a few of them and your kingdom provides for itself. Eventually you can feel free to dip the treasury if your character falls behind. The treasurer npc obviously told...
The Kingdom had over 300 BP... Even after getting the Waterfront... the King (played by my brother, who was playing a Paladin) didn't dip into it because he and about 2 others (out of a rather large group) kept finding rather good gear, and he didn't realize that no one else was in need of gear because they never bothered asking (I guess, I never really bothered finding out why he didn't dip into the Treasury). The game is in hiatus due to us getting about 3 more players, and the Samurai Jack character was rather
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
The thing is, it seems that Sneak Attack is what it comes down to. People who play Rogue would have problems using Sneak Attack, and it is half the class. With Slayer, it doesn't take up as much space on the class, but it is still important for it.
Also Scavion, when designing a character concept, I prefer to see what I can do without relying on magic items because those specific ones aren't always available. A class has to be able to effectively rely on it's own abilities.
No Magic item specifically makes or breaks my build. Unless you can't even get your hands on a Belt of a Dex +2 in your games in which case thats super brutal and I'm sorry for you.
In Kingmaker, almost all the gold went into the Treasury, so by level 14, I had about 5,000g, a normal Rapier, two Aklys' I decided to get, and a +1 Cloak of Resistance I got as a reward I think during book 2. The GM later said that I got a raise after I brought back the character from a single level retirement while I tried out a Samurai Jack character (which lead to about 4 other characters by other players based off of comics and shows).
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
The thing is, it seems that Sneak Attack is what it comes down to. People who play Rogue would have problems using Sneak Attack, and it is half the class. With Slayer, it doesn't take up as much space on the class, but it is still important for it.
Also Scavion, when designing a character concept, I prefer to see what I can do without relying on magic items because those specific ones aren't always available. A class has to be able to effectively rely on it's own abilities.
I, personally, would still prefer the Sneak Attack, except using Favored Target as the trigger instead of Flanking/No Dex to AC. A limit of 3+1/2 Slayer Level per Favored Target would be the limit. Though you have to remember, this class still has a lower SA than the Rogue by 4 dice, and they need some way to make up for it other than just being able to use martial weapons and medium armor, though I do think shield proficiency is a somewhat strange choice for this class.
EDIT: The bane idea, however, is still not half bad for the Slayer, but I think it would be more appropriate for an archetype as this is still suppose to be a combination of Ranger and Rogue.
That was my first suggestion as well.
I stand behind the idea that you can't just slap sneak attack onto a class and say that it functions.
I think with three new base classes that have sneak attack, there is a great opportunity to do two things.
1) make it so that the condition for sneak attack is mutable.
2) Let the rogue be the only class with "unlimited" sneak attacks
I think that at level 3, the slayer should get level + Wisdom Bonus uses per day. Declare after hitting but before rolling damage.
This would be 10+wisdom uses per day at level 10, which could easily be expended very quickly. This falls behind bane in many ways, but Favored Target, I think, makes up for that.
I'd prefer to not start bringing Wisdom into the Slayer, as he currently needs Strength for Damage (Unless they get an Agile weapon or Dervish Dance), most likely Dexterity (I'm not sure if the Slayer is more DEX-based or STR-based), possibly Charisma, and most likely Intelligence.
But then its not really sneak attack. And Barbarians get shield proficiency even though its better to two-hand a weapon.
The thing is that the original Sneak Attack is to situational to use. A variant for the Slayer (possibly called "Focused Strike" or "Favored Strike" or something) would be preferred in this case.
Also, this class still seems weird to get Shield proficiency despite the Ranger having it. This class doesn't seem to much like it would need a shield, but I'm not complaining.
Lazurin Arborlon wrote:
acrobatics.
Acrobatics doesn't always succeed, and you will fail at some point if the enemy causes you to keep on provoking Attacks of Opportunity.
I, personally, would still prefer the Sneak Attack, except using Favored Target as the trigger instead of Flanking/No Dex to AC. A limit of 3+1/2 Slayer Level per Favored Target would be the limit. Though you have to remember, this class still has a lower SA than the Rogue by 4 dice, and they need some way to make up for it other than just being able to use martial weapons and medium armor, though I do think shield proficiency is a somewhat strange choice for this class.
EDIT: The bane idea, however, is still not half bad for the Slayer, but I think it would be more appropriate for an archetype as this is still suppose to be a combination of Ranger and Rogue.
A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.
I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.
So an enemy with reach just really screws you over more than anyone else? A barbarian can take the hit from a large or larger enemy, but a rogue can't, so if that enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on you, it can end poorly for you, especially when you need to get into a position where you are flanking, moving through at least one threatened square to do so. Even then, the enemy can move, so you have to set up your position AGAIN, causing you to provoke more Attacks of Opportunity.
the slayer has d10 hit die and the slayer and the barbarian both have access to martial reach weapons.
What if you do not have access to a flanking partner? Flanking shouldn't be the option that a rogue goes with most of the time. The rogue, and now somewhat the Slayer, relies somewhat heavily
...
CONGA LINE!!!
I do think this class should have access to a few more skills, such as Knowledge (Nature), Disable Device, Diplomacy, and Bluff, though we risk this class turning into a partial skill monkey class, which I think they were originally trying to avoid despite being a hybrid of two classes that are skill monkeys.
Also, Favored Target is decent, but not something to always rely on, as it only gives up to +5, and it could be better, with the extra damage raising by 2 points every 5 levels, but keeping the to-hit bonus at +1 every 5 levels.
Believe me when I say this class was the one I most anticipated, and I will test it as soon as possible.
A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.
I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.
So an enemy with reach just really screws you over more than anyone else? A barbarian can take the hit from a large or larger enemy, but a rogue can't, so if that enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on you, it can end poorly for you, especially when you need to get into a position where you are flanking, moving through at least one threatened square to do so. Even then, the enemy can move, so you have to set up your position AGAIN, causing you to provoke more Attacks of Opportunity.
the slayer has d10 hit die and the slayer and the barbarian both have access to martial reach weapons.
What if you do not have access to a flanking partner? Flanking shouldn't be the option that a rogue goes with most of the time. The rogue, and now somewhat the Slayer, relies somewhat heavily on other players just for that flanking, which isn't something you always see.
Though now I'm going to have fun Sneak Attacking with a reach weapon when my group finally gets around to doing a game with these classes.
Back on topic... A character should be able to rely on their own skills and abilities to greatly injure an enemy. A barbarian has rage, a fighter can hit hard, a caster has spells, a monk punches amazingly hard and can flurry. A rogue has to get lucky and either have a flanking partner (doesn't always happen) or find some other way to get rid of their enemy's DEX bonus to AC, which tends to use up a few feats.
EDIT: The only surefire way I know of to get Sneak Attack is with either Multiclassing to get a Companion (Ranger/Druid for an animal, or what I did for my KingMaker Rogue taking levels of ShadowDancer for a Shade) or Leadership for a Damage Sponge Cohort and using them to flank, though you can still lose your flanking partner in multiple ways.
A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.
I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.
So an enemy with reach just really screws you over more than anyone else? A barbarian can take the hit from a large or larger enemy, but a rogue can't, so if that enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on you, it can end poorly for you, especially when you need to get into a position where you are flanking, moving through at least one threatened square to do so. Even then, the enemy can move, so you have to set up your position AGAIN, causing you to provoke more Attacks of Opportunity.
When I play a rogue, I figure there are two ways to handle Sneak Attack easily without having to feint all the time or find other ways to deny DEX to AC.
There is the Flanking method, which I can usually support with Leadership, or just getting the rest of the group to listen to me, though since there is usually a player using a melee martial class, it's usually easy enough to get into flanking position.
The other way, which I only recently found, was the Gang Up feat, though you need to have two other melee players, which I'm somewhat lucky to have most of the time.
Something I noticed about this class when compared to the Rogue is that the Rogue can deal more sneak attack damage in a full-attack. A level 20 Rogue (not including feats for more attacks, like two-weapon fighting) gets 3 attacks at 10d6, making it possible to deal 30d6 sneak attack damage in one round. A Level 20 Slayer gets 4 attacks at 6d6, making it possible to deal 24d6 sneak attack damage in one round.
Favored Target makes up for it in some ways but not enough I believe, and I like Lord Malkov's idea of different ways to trigger Sneak Attack for different classes. For the Slayer, I agree with It only working on Favored Target, though a limit on uses for it that is reasonable would be good, which I believe should be "3+1/2 Slayer Level+DEX / Favored Target" so that it would reset for each favored target, so he doesn't run out of Sneak Attack uses, but can use it more easily despite being weaker.
EDIT: A rogue can also get the Major Magic talent so that they can cast Invisibility 2/day, which, while rather limited, can still be used to get a Sneak Attack in.
EDIT 2: I think that the Slayer would benefit from access to some more of the Rogue talents, such as ones that affect Sneak Attack.
The types of investigators that I am thinking of are more like Michael Westen, MacGyver, or the Impossible Missions group.
None of those listed are investigators...
-MacGyver is a Secret Agent.
-Michael Westen is a Spy for the CIA.
-The "Mission:Impossible" groups are Secret Government Agents.
Spy and Secret Agent are both very different from an investigator. Sure, a Spy and a Secret Agent both focus on getting information, like an investigator, but a Spy and Secret Agent tend to have some form of large organization helping them, are assassins, and are secretive. An investigator isn't all that secretive, and they tend not to go around assassinating people. Investigators find out who committed a crime, they don't proceed to kill them.
This does, however, give me a thought. The option (maybe as a talent, I don't know) to get a "Knock-out bomb" that functions similarly to the Alchemist's bombs, except do non-lethal damage, or a gas variant that requires a Fortitude save to stay conscious and makes no sound.
Rorenado, I see your point, but we can't cram something from the (optional) words of power system into this class. We can make spell kenning easier, and theme it to certain things (such as "you can use this for sonic, divination, and X Y Z effects") to make its purpose clearer.
It was just a suggestion, and I understand your point about the words of power system. Another suggestion would be to theme it to word based magic, or runes, or something to that nature as well, as well as any spell with a language-dependent variable.
Thanks for responding!
One way Spell Kenning could work while keeping in the theme would be to allow it's use only on spells that have Vocal components, since, as stated before, kennings were phrases. These phrases would be used as the Vocal component for the spell when using Spell Kenning.
Edit: This could, however, be annoying in that a player would have to look up each spell and see if it uses Vocal components just so that they can use Spell Kenning.
Animal Focus could be improved by having it give the Hunter a natural attack dependent on the animal while Animal Focus is active, starting at a certain level (Possibly 4th). Choosing Wolf for Animal Focus could give the Hunter a bite attack, and the damage from the bite would get better as the Hunter levels up. When you gain the ability to choose multiple animals for the Focus, choosing two animals that grant the same natural attack could give either a second attack or increase the damage die by 1 step.
The version of Master Hunter that the Hunter gets is rather poor when compared to the Ranger's version. The Ranger gets a death attack against their Favored Enemy, whereas the Hunter chooses an Animal Focus to have active the entire day, and can track targets while moving at full speed without a penalty. The benefit from the Animal Focus part of that is rather strong in that it can raise an ability score by 6 for the day, but the tracking part doesn't seem that fit for a capstone.
For this version of Master Hunter, the Animal Focus part should remain, but change the part about tracking. Tracking at full speed seems like it would be a good ability for around level 15 (in the middle of the section that is bare, except for more uses of Animal Focus, more Teamwork Feats, and more spells). An ability that works with tracking would be good for the Hunter, such as one that allows you to use a Death attack if you've tracked the target for X time, or one that works with the Animal Companion to benefit both the companion and the Hunter.
I can understand Quarry being a move action, as that is meant for tracking, and not for the middle of combat. I do, however, have a problem with Favored Target being a move action, as that prevents you from getting close enough to attack the enemy unless you did so the previous round, or you are using a ranged weapon.
I have no problems with the removal of the Ranger's spells, as the class is really good without it, and Ranger and Rogue meshed together better than expected. I originally wanted to test this class out when I first heard about it, and now seeing how it turned out, this has reinforced it, as I tend to play either a Magus or Rogue.
A talent that grants a temporary invisibility would be good for this class, such as the Ninja's Vanishing Trick. Even if it could only be used in the Favored Terrain granted my Terrain Mastery, that would be good. In my opinion, the Slayer should get a single Favored Terrain without having to take Terrain Mastery, and can take Terrain Mastery for additional Favored Terrains.
An increase in skill points would be good for this class, as they have a rather large selection of Class Skills to choose from. There are two skills that I think should be added to the Skills List, however, and those are Disable Device and Knowledge (Nature).
This class is a good one, and is one of the best so far in my opinion, could be improved, but is still really good.
For the Shaman's Hexes, I think that they should have an alternate name, and each should have two options, one that is positive effect, where you can use it to benefit (The Life Spirit's Hex to Stabilize multiple people at once), and a negative effect (Give the Life Spirit's Stabilize Hex the ability to instead cause enemies to destabilize).
Also, this class seems to have more of the fluff of the Oracle, but the abilities of the Witch. In terms of Oracle, it just has the spell list, and is related to otherworldly beings. To make it more similar to the Oracle, there could be a temporary negative effect to the Shaman when you activate a Hex, depending on your Spirit (For example, being blinded for one round after using an ability from the Heavens Spirit) or the Spirit Hex you used (being blinded for one round after using Enveloping Void from the Heavens Spirit, and Fatigued from using Heaven's Leap from that same Spirit). The ability to summon a creature based on your chosen Spirit would also be rather good for this class.
I believe this class needs a good Fort save, along with the current Reflex save, because guess what BOTH Gunslinger and Fighter have? Good Fort saves.
As this class is uses light armor, and is meant to be agile, I think that Evasion would be a decent fit, though there doesn't seem to be a need for Improved Evasion. Also, it would make sense to have the class add Charisma to their AC, or at least half of their Charisma, since this class, unlike the Gunslinger, is a melee fighter, and unlike Fighter, doesn't have access to medium or heavy armor.
For Swashbuckler Finesse, I think it should get the Weapon Finesse feat in addition to the ability to use One-handed weapons with DEX, as it can cause problems in various ways. Some people have a problem with the fact that you can't use it to get the Dervish Dance feat, though you also can't get the Mythic version of Weapon Finesse in a Mythic game that allows you to use DEX for damage either unless you spend a feat on regular Weapon Finesse.
In response to Googleshng, the Skald is capable of maintaining their concentration while using Raging Song, as the text says "while under the effects of skald rage, allies (other than the skald) cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any abilities that requires patience or concentration."
I do, however agree, that not allowing this to stack with a Barbarian's Rage ability is a mistake that should be fixed, and that everyone gets fatigued at the end of the spell is rather bad. I agree that the bonuses from Raging Song should count as a different type when interacting with Rage effects. I also believe that each individual person under the effects of Raging Song should be able to end it's affect on them as a free action, which would allow the players to spread out the fatigue, so they won't all be crippled for a round.
Spell keening is rather strong, though it is somewhat balanced by the fact that you can only use it a maximum of three times per day at level 17, and the capstone ability does not remove that limit.
Robert Brookes' idea for a chant ability isn't all that bad, though a version of Raging Song would be good to have in that, and some of the abilities he suggested should get a larger increase with level than he suggested.
An ability that seems like it would fit in this class is the ability to cast a spell (at least one that is a melee touch attack) instead of just attacking as usual at the end of a charge.
Something that seems strange to me are the Saves for the Bloodrager. He has a good Fortitude, but low Reflex and Will. I would think that the Bloodrager would have both a good Fortitude and Will, similar to how the Barbarian has a good Fortitude, and the Sorcerer has a good Will.
My group is on book one, and we've been playing for a few weeks. For the most part we have already decided on our Mythic Paths.
Sacred Shield Paladin of Iomedae (Me) - Guardian/Marshal
Paladin of Iomedae - Champion
Tetori Monk - Champion
Cleric of Torag - Hierophant
There are two players that I'm unsure of, and I doubt they've taken a look at the Mythic Paths yet.
Magus - Possibly Archmage or Champion, maybe both.
Inquisitor of Sarenrae - Possibly Hierophant or Champion, maybe both, if he ever gets an atonement spell for the one session he's been in...
The group did not start off this religious, instead it was a 10 person group, but was eventually split into two separate groups with their own GM and separate universe (in each universe, the other half died). The other party consists of a Wizard, Rogue, Druid, Paladin (I think of Iomedae), and Barbarian.
