Nothing To See Here's page

3-Body Problem wrote:

if you were asked to start designing a PF3 tomorrow what are the best bits of PF2 that you would make sure ended up in PF3?

The power ceiling and power floor.

I know that there are a lot of people who don't like that aspect of PF2. Especially people who came from PF1 and loved it. Some people have a lot of fun powergaming and competing with each other to create the most broken builds possible.

But that competitive nature isn't what makes for a good role-playing storytelling game.

So more than any mechanics of action economy or methods of casting spells, the most important thing to me is that people who are playing the game to have fun telling stories with their friends aren't being trounced by people who want to show off how smart they are.

Going along with this, the general focus on buffs, debuffs, tactics and all of the other things people can do to help their party succeed, not just themselves.

It depends on what the object is. If it's a weapon, a shifting rune may be able to force it into the shape you want. If your GM is willing to work with you a bit, perhaps you could find a blacksmith or other crafter who could reforge it while maintaining the functionality of it or you could try to dispel the shape lock without completely disenchanting the item.

A feat that works like intimidating prowess to add a bonus to medicine for having high intelligence would be nice to have and is something I added as homebrew for my game. IMO they really should have done a whole series of feats like that.

One thing I'm excited for in the overlap (in addition to the fact that i really want to play a 2e Starfinder independently of PF) is classes that have similar concepts as existing pf2e classes, but aren't actually built the same-- like if the Envoy essentially ends up functioning like a Martial Bard, that's a very exciting thing to add to a PF game we might not have gotten in PF, because 'hey, that's the bard's thing'

Ditto for the Soldier-- so long as it can use enough PF weapons usefully, its kinda like 'the path the fighter didn't take' as this tanky defensive class that projects control effects without any magic. If you can perform that with a greatsword, blackpowder guns, and/or bows, you're in good shape.

On the flip, if you wanted a more offensive soldier, handing the Fighter Starfinder weapons has you covered.

So I hope that they don't duplicate PF2e classes into SF2e ones, rather I hope that they remix elements such that no class is 1 to 1 with a PF class.

It works both ways too. If there isn't enough to distinguish the Operator from the Rogue for instance, they can just include an Operator racket and a few tech based Rogue feats. 2e's Inventor is already basically just a better version of Starfinder's Engineer so they can save the page space for something else if they want to.

Personally, I'm excited for the Vanguard to be playable in pathfinder, so I can finally have a class that's built for armored defense without needed to be associated with a deity or cause.

The element of surprise for kineticists. It deals mental damage and has an impulse that stuns the target.

That sounds like a lot of complexity for something that could be solved by having a burn feat that lets you take damage or some other penalty to avoid losing your gathered element when you us and overflow impulse.

Nothing To See Here wrote:

Proliferate also has the problem that is doesn't seem to do anything for air and it only works for fire if the ground is flammable.

Proliferate is great for making instant air pockets in water-filled dungeons. Take an empty vial with you, uncork it, Proliferate the resulting bubble for a 5-foot air pocket. Given a full minute you've got a 15-foot-by-15-foot air pocket. Then just dump out the water that's now in your vial, re-cork it, and be ready for the next pause.

Heck, since Proliferate can probably screw with conservation of matter, if you can adequately block the entrance you could probably totally drain a room by just Proliferating that vial-worth of air long enough.

While Adapt Terrain does say that you are creating matter, it doesn't say anything about destroying the matter that is displaced. Water pushed out of the way by your air cube doesn't necessarily cease to exist. Additionally Proliferate specifies that anything you create reacts naturally afterward, so the air would just disperse into bubbles immediately. Given that air can compress a lot more than water, if you just keep proliferating, I think all you would end up with is some very dense bubbles of air.

Adapt Element is really seriously undertuned. Like I understand the goal is to clear this is not a combat ability. But it does seem like a geokineticist of sufficient skill should be better at digging a ditch than someone with a shovel, that a talented aerokineticist should be able to generate a large enough breeze to propel a sailboat, that a talented pyrokineticist should be able to create a fire break to control a wildfire, etc.

This is not about tremendous narrative power, it's about "feeling like someone who is good at manipulating your element."

Agreed.

Many of the options are far to mundane. For instance due to the size restrictions and pyrokineticist can only use Regulate to snuff out a candle, or maybe a torch, something that anyone could do without magical powers. Maybe the intention is to just be a kineticist equivalent to prestidigitation, but it isn't presented like that.

I think this is a symptom of a wider issue with Adapt Element. It doesn't even specify if you can use it on ice, snow or anything else that isn't specifically your element. The Regulate ability says you can turn water to ice, but doesn't say you can turn it back into water. It is unclear if Adapt Terrain can lava since it is technically earth, but that seems way more powerful than the other options. Proliferate also has the problem that is doesn't seem to do anything for air and it only works for fire if the ground is flammable.

I am behind the idea of having water and air get access to cold and electricity damage, either through a level 1 choice or a low level feat. The one thing I want to make sure of is that the other elements don't get left behind by that. Maybe fire gets a bludgeoning damage explosive blast and earth gets the other physical damage types.

I think the solution to trying to use one object as multiple implements and/or a weapon as a non-weapon implements is to say that you need to switch your grip to change the usage. Using a sword as a mirror requires holding it differently than if you use it as a weapon.

I have two ideas that might work for a slotless caster.

The first is a pure academic who rather than using slots has to roll the associated skill check whenever they cast. It would probably need a penalty for critical failure just to avoid excessive casting out of combat. I'm not sure if this would be good or bad but if the DC is based on the level of the spell then they could potentially cast lower level magic all day without restriction.

The other idea is a stage magician who doesn't cast spells at all and just produces effect that look like magic. They could get several pseudo spells, similar to inventor abilities like explode and megavolt, that they can use as much as they want.

1. You are correct. The summoner and eidolon roll saves separately. For effects that deal damage or target your shared pool of actions, you are only affected once but take the worse of the two results.

2. Technically, since the eidolon gets its actions from the summoner, if the eidolon is under a compulsion effect you can simply choose not to give it actions. Under teh rules for the eidolon there is a section called Lost and Altered Actions that specifies what happens if either of you is being controlled by an effect.

I would totally buy "Lost Omens: Inner Sea Cookbook" if only for Cheliax's infernal chili recipe.

On the subject of work together, one thing I haven't seen discussed anywhere is that even this new version won't let both the summoner and the eidolon each take a two action activity. For instance, if I want to cast a spell and have my dragon eidolon breath fire, I can't. I don't know if this would work out balance wise, but it may be a good idea to word it so that the summoner and eidolon between them get as many actions as were spent on work together plus one, with the restriction that they each must take at least one of the actions.

Nothing To See Here wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

I don't know that they WANT a gameplay loop.

Everyone has some kind of gameplay loop and every martial class has some kind of basic combat mechanic. You're right that they don't have to, strictly speaking, but a Magus who can only spellstrike four times a day and essentially doesn't have anything else baked into their kit and just spends the rest of the day making vanilla strikes sounds legitimately terrible to play.

Hard pass from me on that idea.

Just because you don't spellstrike every round doesn't mean that your other turns are spent on vanilla strikes. They could change the ability so that instead of the spell going off the first time you hit something, it is set off by a free action that is triggered by hitting something, meaning that you can choose to release the spell or keep it stored. If they then add something like the bespell strikes effect anytime that the weapon is charged, you would be able to benefit from spell strike for multiple rounds, while only casting one spell.

This is definitely one idea under consideration, but it is a really bad idea if the goal is to incentivize the magus to cast powerful attack spells through their weapon. You are basically asking the magus not to actually use the spell, except as a damage battery. The difference between this and the swashbuckler panache mechanic is that a swashbuckler can get panache by making a skill check, something they can do over and over again. The magus is only going to have a few spells, they will basically be incentivized to cast their spell and not release it unless they absolutely have to or the fight is almost over. But offensive spells (with a few notable exceptions) in PF2 are swingy high damage potential options that change the encounter when they land successfully. If you have to sustain the spell in your weapon, you are basically trading the fun of different spells with different effects for a damage buff where the only...

What if casting a spell into the weapon charges with bespell strikes for 1 minute regardless of when the spell actually goes off? That way, you can use the spell when you need it, but still get benefits on turns when your not casting.

Additionally it doesn't have to be a pure damage boost. The spell could give varying effects depending on its school, such as a necromancy spell causing enfeeblement. Maybe it could even duplicate the spell on a critical hit, possibly with half damage or a one step better save, allowing spellstrike to make up for the magus' low number of spells. This would grant a magus a certain amount of the crit spikiness they had in 1st edition without making them rely on it, the way they do with the playtest spellstrike.

Alternatively, they could get a new ability that lets them do something fun and magical with their strikes, when they aren't casting spells, to make up for not being able to cast every turn.

Captain Morgan wrote:

I don't know that they WANT a gameplay loop.

Everyone has some kind of gameplay loop and every martial class has some kind of basic combat mechanic. You're right that they don't have to, strictly speaking, but a Magus who can only spellstrike four times a day and essentially doesn't have anything else baked into their kit and just spends the rest of the day making vanilla strikes sounds legitimately terrible to play.

Hard pass from me on that idea.

Just because you don't spellstrike every round doesn't mean that your other turns are spent on vanilla strikes. They could change the ability so that instead of the spell going off the first time you hit something, it is set off by a free action that is triggered by hitting something, meaning that you can choose to release the spell or keep it stored. If they then add something like the bespell strikes effect anytime that the weapon is charged, you would be able to benefit from spell strike for multiple rounds, while only casting one spell.

Just a few ideas for how to improve the eidolons power and customizability a little bit without making any major system changes. I wanted to see what people think of them. I'm going for concept, so the exact implementation of these might need some work.

Idea 1: Weapon Based Attacks

Instead of having the primary attack be 1d8 with a feat to add a trait to it, make it based on a martial one handed weapon.

Choose a single one handed martial weapon. Your eidolons primary attack gains the damage die and traits of that weapon. You choose the weapons damage type between bludgeoning piercing and slashing. If the weapon is versatile you choose the second damage type as well. Thrown and any other trait that is not compatible with the anatomy of a natural attack do not apply.

This would allow the eidolon's attack to be customizable without needing to create a system for building it. Power wise this would only add a single trait to d8 attacks, which seems reasonable. Additionally, a feat could be added to upgrade the attack to a one handed advanced weapon, or 2 handed martial weapon.

Idea 2: Action Evolutions

One of my favorite things about PF2 is how many of the martial feats give the characters special actions. The eidolon's evolution feats don't have enough of these. While the evolutions availabe are good to have as options, I was hoping for more action based evolutions. However, just making eidolon copies of the standard martial feats would be boring. Instead, I think they should be based on monster actions. For instance based on the Hydra and the Maralith:

Many Limbed Assault [A][A][A]
Your eidolon lashes out with every available limb at once. The eidolon makes a single strike with its primary attack. This attack deals an additional damage equal to 1d4 plus and additional 1d4 per 2 levels you possess.

Its nice to see that the dragon gets its breath weapon and draconic frenzy, but not every creature that people will want to make an eidolon based on will be available as a base form, so adding abilities possessed by multiple monsters across multiple types allows the player to approximate these creatures without making the system completely free form.

Idea 3: Feat Granting

One of the problems that the eidolon runs into is that while it shares the summoner's skills it does not share skill feats. I understand the balance concern of being able to share feats like battle medicine (effectively doubling how often you can use it on a target), so I think as an alternative summoner's should be able to choose, when they take a skill feat, whether it will apply to them or the eidolon. This would come with an extra rule that whichever body gets the feat is the one that has to qualify for it, allowing the eidolon to take intimidating prowess without the summonner needing high strength.

Additionally this feat granting could be extended to general feats and class feats used to take an archetype. This would have to come with restrictions on what the eidolon can gain from these feats, such as no weapon or armor proficiency, no spellcasting, and nothing that the eidolon would be incapable of using, such as the magic items granted by scroll trickster. I can't think of anything that would make for a better dread marshal than a giant monster that is till chewing on the last enemy it killed.

Idea 4: Gestalt Synthesis

I think the current synthesis feat could use less restrictions than it currently places on the summoner, but I like the idea of having a feat that allows the summoner to choose whether or not they want to merge with their eidolon. However for those who want to be in eidolon form all the time I have a solution that I think works better than wearing the eidolon as a suit. This would be a class path alongside Master Summoner and Eidolon Caller or whatever they end up being called if paizo decides to add class paths in addition to the eidolon selection.

Gestalt Synthesist
You haven't just summoned a creature from another plane of existance, you have become it. You have completely merged with your eidolon, turning into a singular creature, and nothing can separate you any more. Instead of gaining an eidolon, you fain all of the abilities that your eidolon would have possessed, including unarmed and unarmored proficienies. You use your own ability scores, not the eidolons. You can select Strength or Dexterity as you primary ability score in place of Charisma. If you take any evolution feats, they apply to you.

This allows for all the fun of playing a monster built on PC rules, without the ability score shenanigans of the original synthesist. This basically leaves you with something like a magus, but with eidolon abilities instead of Striking Spell and, ironically, Synthesis.

BOught it, but can't download it :(

Edit: Now it says the personalizer is unavailable!?!?! What the frog?

what he said