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It's no secret that I'm an opinionated curmudgeon who rubs some of you the wrong way; I can't promise that will change. What I can do is offer an olive branch of positivity in hopes of mending some fences.
With that all said, if you were asked to start designing a PF3 tomorrow what are the best bits of PF2 that you would make sure ended up in PF3? This can be anything from general concepts to specific mechanics and you don't have to bring anything over whole cloth. If you love a class or idea but the execution was off it's totally valid to say you'd bring it over to PF3.
In keeping with the theme let's keep this thread positive and flag free. If you dislike somebody's suggestion hold your tongue or make a new thread about how [idea] could be better implemented for PF3.
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if you were asked to start designing a PF3 tomorrow what are the best bits of PF2 that you would make sure ended up in PF3?
The power ceiling and power floor.
I know that there are a lot of people who don't like that aspect of PF2. Especially people who came from PF1 and loved it. Some people have a lot of fun powergaming and competing with each other to create the most broken builds possible.
But that competitive nature isn't what makes for a good role-playing storytelling game.
So more than any mechanics of action economy or methods of casting spells, the most important thing to me is that people who are playing the game to have fun telling stories with their friends aren't being trounced by people who want to show off how smart they are.
if you were asked to start designing a PF3 tomorrow what are the best bits of PF2 that you would make sure ended up in PF3?The power ceiling and power floor.
I know that there are a lot of people who don't like that aspect of PF2. Especially people who came from PF1 and loved it. Some people have a lot of fun powergaming and competing with each other to create the most broken builds possible.
But that competitive nature isn't what makes for a good role-playing storytelling game.
So more than any mechanics of action economy or methods of casting spells, the most important thing to me is that people who are playing the game to have fun telling stories with their friends aren't being trounced by people who want to show off how smart they are.
Going along with this, the general focus on buffs, debuffs, tactics and all of the other things people can do to help their party succeed, not just themselves.
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I asked my players what was the best parts of PF2 that should be preserved in PF3.
My wife said the three-action system. She likes that it is simpler than D&D 3rd Edition's and PF1's standard and move actions or one full action plus the swift or immediate action, maybe the five-foot step, and free actions. My wife also likes GURPS and in that system the player gets only one action per turn, which could be a move or an attack or a combination partial move and weak attack, etc. The three-action system is better than that because GURPS often feels like preparing to accomplish something on the next turn while PF2 tries to accomplish something every turn.
Two other players said they had no idea.
As for me, I like the storytelling in roleplaying games. I want my players to have characters who act like fictional characters rather than pieces on a board game. (I like board games, but even in a role-centric boardgame like Pandemic, the moves feel abstract.) Customization of character builds and active choices during exploration and combat let the players roleplay their fictional characters through individual themes and actions. PF1 had the same elements; however, the three-action system provides an improvement. PF1's full-round attack meant stand still (except for a 5-foot step) and attack, attack, attack. PF2 goes Strike, Strike, and Something Else, because a 3rd Strike is close to useless. The Something Else offers an additional individual choice.
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The balance that makes it easy to run.
I don't ever want to go back to the unbalanced, destroy everything PF1/3E paradigm that made that game hard to run and prepare.
There should be as much thought put into making the game easy on the DM as the thought put into making the game fun for the players. A game won't last if the DM burns out on preparing and running it.
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There's so few things I'd want to change to be honest. I'd be here porting nearly everything over except current alchemist and current mutagens.
If I had to pick, I would center more focus spells, more ten minute activities and fewer hour long cooldowns, keeping the balance tight, the limited but mostly relevant skill list, the scaling, the class and ancestry feat pools, the many ways to support/buff/debuff, etc.
I would make automatic bonus progression base kit though and probably diversify the caster resource types earlier in the life cycle.
PF2 has been my favorite system that isn't rules-light. I think many of its problems are still from growing pains and rather small. Early APs and class abilities that didn't yet know how strong or weak they were in the grand scheme until they saw a few years of play.
It really makes me excited for Starfinder 2e that they'll have already all this to work from.
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if you were asked to start designing a PF3 tomorrow what are the best bits of PF2 that you would make sure ended up in PF3?The power ceiling and power floor.
I know that there are a lot of people who don't like that aspect of PF2. Especially people who came from PF1 and loved it. Some people have a lot of fun powergaming and competing with each other to create the most broken builds possible.
But that competitive nature isn't what makes for a good role-playing storytelling game.
So more than any mechanics of action economy or methods of casting spells, the most important thing to me is that people who are playing the game to have fun telling stories with their friends aren't being trounced by people who want to show off how smart they are.
This is the biggest thing for me too. It's not unlike the difference between Armored Core 6 and Elden Ring. Elden Ring has a ceiling and floor wildly removed from eachother where some people are killing bosses in one shot and others quite literally cannot defeat some due to build issues. Where as armored core is generally designed with mech parts being side grades of eachother. There are things which are generally better or worse overall, but this is something that has already started to be addressed in patches. It's nice to pick up the game and get to choose weapons I really like and know I'll be generally within the same dps range. Likewise for Pathfinder 2e where I am not forced into something like heavy weapons and polearms like in 5e. I know if I pick a weapon that generally it'll be good and that to be mathematically viable I just need that 18 in my primary stat and to keep it up. The restriction creates a freedom and doesn't force people down an optimization route and I greatly appreciate this
Now that I name dropped some video games let me name drop Merleau-Ponty and talk about his concept of free to illustrate my point...
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1. 3 action system
2. There's a modifier for that
3. encounter balance system.
4. Oprah Mode: You get a magic item and you get a magic item, everybody gets magic items.
5. The half-orc / half-elf / versatile heritage system.
6. (soon) No alignments.
If we're talking PF3E:
Put Kineticist in the Core Rulebook or very first supplement - as a template system to build your own themed caster; with the actual Kinticist renamed to Elementalist and shown as an example build.
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3-action system and the character creation options. It is hard not to find something fitting your expectations.
For a PF3 probably moving the bonuses from level to training, for making it a more skill development system. So something like (lvl / 2) + (2 x training), I mean, training levels granting double bonus than currently, and level half. This would make to have to recalculate all the difficulty maths, but it is a new version instead a revision.
And as I am a skill development system lover, use the stat purchase system on GMG but for skills, getting Development Points depending the level (more at higher levels) to purchase any skill, including Perception, Magic (attack and DC), weapons, etc. Each grade of training more expensive, with each class having preferred skills, with normal cost for them, and double for the others. Can keep points for later levels.
This could make all more complex and adds bookkeeping, but you know if is for asking...
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As others have talked about what I like most is that the player is removed from increasing their math in character generation: your numbers come from your class and you can't change those immutable laws. This means players are using their feats for fun things they actually get to DO...actionable ACTIONS and they're all about expanding their toolbox of responses to situations in session. I love a balanced system that gives my players a vast swathe of options to reflect the PC they envision while giving me the peace of mind that whatever I prep is going to function more or less within the bounds of difficulty I'm expecting. As a player, I honestly love the Lego system of mixing and matching a toy chest of parts to make the character I want knowing that the math being removed from me means I'm not restrained by "traps"; I can pick what whatever I want and not feel inadequate compared to the person who tried to squeeze every ounce of efficacy out of their choice. Sure, they'll be better, but not by any amount appreciable enough to make me care. It really is a marvel, and that's the spirit of the game i'd want to see moving forward. Regardless, I'm sure P2E has many years left in the tank and I'm here for them.
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I like the Modular build of Classes and abilties.
I really like how Attributes are increased and generated and in general the character creation system with the Ancenstry and Heritages.
The 3 Action System also is nice.
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One thing I really love about Pathfinder 2e is the balance. Love it or hate it, it means that a level 5 character feels like a level five character, not a level 3 or a level 12. That was one problem with 3.0/3.5/PF1e, you'd have one person that was das ubermensch and another who picked feats for roleplay reasons and wound up being borderline useless. I found it led to either an arms race in trying to find the most broken build, or dissatisfaction with someone not willing to work for it.
This has trickle down effects too. It means that you can design the encounters for actual level 5 PCs without having to go in and customize everything based on your party's level of brokenness. Running published adventures is certainly easy, but it really shines when dealing with writing your own stuff too. Encounter guidelines are easy to follow and you're reasonably certain that you're going to come out with a balanced encounter in the end if you follow them.
Another part of what makes Pathfinder 2e so great for me is the adventures, because it is published by Paizo. As a GM, having a premade adventure for just about any theme my players want, and more coming out regularly, is a big deal. Having an easy on boarding system with the beginner box is a big deal. I just recently got back into running a home game with people from work, and the beginner box made those first sessions easy. Now we're running Society scenarios as one shots, and once everyone's schedule settles down we've decided we want to explore the Abomination Vaults adventure path. Having all of that ready to run, with no tweaks needed, is amazing.
Do I think certain things could be done better? Yeah, I think so. The assumptions that came from Pathfinder 2e from its roots in 3.5 DND have largely been supplanted in modern fantasy literature, so I feel like its getting harder to create characters inspired by the books my players are reading. I prefer attritionless or only exhaustion based magic to better recreate the feel of channelers from the Wheel of Time, or wizards from books like the Dresden Files. I prefer armor to come with a trade off, more likely to get hit but suffering less damage as a result. I'm sure if I sat down and really thought about it I could come up with a half dozen more.
But...all in all those are minor quibbles, compared to the ease of running the game and the availability of adventures ready to run.
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1) The way that Multiclassing is accessed. Devoting wholly to a single Class and then choosing to swap out resources you WOULD spend on that Class in order to gain lesser/lower-level benefits from another Class is a fantastic solution to the insane dip-culture of the 3.X era which completely dominated most builds, optimized or not.
2) Generalized Action values. I am not sure that 3 Actions being the universal be-all-end-all and default is the perfect way to always do things but making sure to keep the vast majority of all things you can do (at least when it matters, in combat etc) always boil down to use X general Actions is a HUGE step in the right direction versus the old way of you getting 1 Standard, 1 Move, 1 Swift, unlimited free, and then special new extra additional stuff that you can get depending on what you make such as Bonus Actions.
3) Siloed Spellcasting Traditions. Moving away from per-class spell lists is a big plus and helps ensure that balance across classes is more easier to achieve.
4) Meaningful ways to advance and improve your Ancestry/Heritage that don't require you to devote Level or Class resources to get it.
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1. Balance (Ease of GMing). Preparing for a PF2 session is a breeze, whereas a PF1 session prep could take days and require test-combats to see if you hit the difficulty mark.
2. Balance (Ease of Character Creation). I love being able to let players go wild with their creativity and not have to constantly tell them their choices are mechanically unacceptable.
3. Ancestry Feats. If anything, I'd want them to double-down and get more ancestry feats more often. It's crazy how much better it feels to give Ancestries all the cool things they're supposed to have but at level-appropriate points in the campaign.
4. Proficiency System. I really like the way all the various proficiencies work, especially with regard to skills, where the math is easy to grok and nothing you spend resources on turns out useless. Even a Trained skill can be of service later on, whereas a stray Rank in PF1 could easily be functionally useless. Also like the narrative framing of Trained, Expert, Master, Legendary since it makes it easy to relate to the world at large.
5. Spellcasters. It's been amazing to see spellcasters take the stage without crowding out everyone else, and it's been an absolute joy to see players make a joke out of enemies with buffs and debuffs without it being rocket tag. You get the sweet spot of PF1 spellcasting throughout all 20 levels.
6. 3 Action Economy. I love being able to track what players are doing so much easier. Much fewer "Oh, did you want to move as well?" type things just "that was all three actions, next player!"
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I honestly have little opinion on this
If in pf3 it was less balance forward or less customizable I'd probably not pick it up
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I would love to see the feat structure stay around for a PF3. That is class feats, skill feats, ancestry feats, and general feats. Maybe they could tweak around with the balance a little bit or frequency you get them. But the feat system allowing you to "slot" in different abilities and customize your character at such a small level feels really cool.
Its the main reason I think why two characters of the same class (or even same subclass) can feel so different.
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I love the level of customization available. (One or more feats every level. Guaranteed.) I love the fact that they've managed to maintain a solid balance structure in spite of this. Initially that led to classes feeling a bit constrained and samey, but they've been getting progressively better and better at that, and that's just great.
I love the system of skill feats that takes me out of my CharOp comfort zone a bit and pretty much forces me to build out my character's backstory and noncombat abilities if I want to be able to squeeze all of the juice out. I love how rules and lore are meshed. I promise, I had not set out with the intention of making Ordrik a clanless duergar expatriate, or giving him a soft spot for the Firebrands. It just happened that way, as I built the character and tried to come up with an explanation for everything.
Oh and the way that the real path to power is to work together with your fellow party members and set up Party Op combos, rather than just focusing on you own personal capabilities. That's pretty cool too.
edit: also the way that you can roll from level 1 to level 20, and the system just keeps working. That's pretty cool too.
It's all just so... well-built.
edit edit: The level of developer engagement and general responsiveness is also really, really nice.
The fact that the company in general seems to be a non-horrible company run by non-horrible people? Likewise gratifying.
I asked my players what was the best parts of PF2 that should be preserved in PF3. ...
Two other players said they had no idea.
One of those player belatedly decided what she liked best. We have been listening to my wife play in a PF1 Tyrant's Grasp campaign over Discord, so that brought back PF1 memories.
The player said that she liked the 1000-xp experience system in PF2. In PF1 we had to constantly look up in Table 3-1: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses, how much XP was necessary to reach the next level. (Well, the fast experience progression in that table for 4th level and above follows the formula 3000×(1.43^(n-1)) - 3000 with some rounding to reach nth level.) With a fixed 1000 xp per level, a character who has 350 xp knows that they are 35% of the way to the next level.
The 1000-xp levels also enable the Encounter Budget in which a Low-Threat encounter is 60 xp of enemies, a Moderate-Threat encounter is 80 xp of enemies, and a Severe-Threat encounter is 120 xp of enemies, regardless of the party's level.
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if you were asked to start designing a PF3 tomorrow what are the best bits of PF2 that you would make sure ended up in PF3?The power ceiling and power floor.
1000 x Yes!
There are some favorable combos, but the advantage that they give is small. No more of one (or two) player(s) running away with the game and leaving everyone else behind.
I'm a player that likes to play Wizards, and I do like that magic doesn't become so overpowered in the late game.
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I will just note a few things of what I LOVE about PF2 and what I want carried over.
I love that most of PF2 feats are not just static number increases. Coming from PF1/5e where most feats were just +X to something.
Characters are more or less balanced with numbers. You don't see one Rogue hitting with +19 while another Rogue is attacking with a +10 to hit.
Martials are designed great. Their feats and subclasses can completely change their playstyle.
I would want Kineticist to be a base class and other casters to follow suite. I love the unique spell list and that feats dramatically change your playstyle. It isn't rare to play a caster get an even level and barely even care that you got a feat...
I also think the archetype system is the BEST form of multiclassing I have ever seen. So great to pick up off class abilities without breaking the game or becoming useless. Also please make free archetype the default :).
Ancestry feats are also really cool, and I think ancestral paragon should be the default too. 4 levels are a long time to wait. Of course, I think all races should be fleshed out more like the core races.
You are probably wandering "wouldn't this be too many feats". Yes, but I am hoping they get rid of general and skill feats. They are completely unnecessary imo. Just give players the "mandatory" one like intimidating glare, continual recovery and titan wrestler by default.
With class feats + free archetype + ancestral paragon players will just always be making fun choices. My least favorite part of having new Pathfinder 2e players is explaining skill feats. Almost every new player looks through them and say something like "these almost all feel useless". Yes if they have intimidation and medicine they appreciate them.
The good general feats are mostly just small boring power boosts. Don't think they really add a lot. I just got fleet>toughness>initiative etc...
if you were asked to start designing a PF3 tomorrow what are the best bits of PF2 that you would make sure ended up in PF3?The power ceiling and power floor.
I know that there are a lot of people who don't like that aspect of PF2. Especially people who came from PF1 and loved it. Some people have a lot of fun powergaming and competing with each other to create the most broken builds possible.
But that competitive nature isn't what makes for a good role-playing storytelling game.
So more than any mechanics of action economy or methods of casting spells, the most important thing to me is that people who are playing the game to have fun telling stories with their friends aren't being trounced by people who want to show off how smart they are.
I was going to say something along this line, but phrased as "How well encounters and CR guidelines are balanced". Even the best designed characters can maybe swing about 1/2 a level above their weight compared to other characters. And a poorly designed character will still swing about 1/2 level below their weight. So even your best and worst builds side by side are still close enough that the GM doesn't have to avoid one player or focus on another to keep everyone having a similar experience. Although, depending on how high powered your group likes to play, it may be worth playing the game with characters a level to 2 levels above the expected character level.