Should I have done this as a Summoner?


Rules Discussion


This is my first time playing the Summoner class so I'm still trying to figure things out. My character and his eidolon were both investigating in the same room. The GM says roll a Will save. I said "Well, I should probably be rolling saves for my eidolon too."
My Summoner passes, the eidolon fails. The GM says the eidolon feels compelled to sit on a sofa.
I said "My summoner notices this odd behavior and I would like to unmanifest my eidolon as a precaution."

These are my questions:
1. My understanding of the rules is that if summoner and eidolon are doing separate things they should each roll saves. Is this correct or is one save for both an option?
2. Should I have made my character unmanifest his eidolon? They were not in combat, but I thought about it after the fact and it felt like cheating. Keep in mind I do not have Reactive Dismissal (although it was not a damaging effect).

I swear I try to follow the rules but there are many of them.


Gefgef wrote:
1. My understanding of the rules is that if summoner and eidolon are doing separate things they should each roll saves. Is this correct or is one save for both an option?

That is correct. It is bad when you both get caught in the area effect of a spell. You both have to roll and end up taking the worst result. It is good when you are rolling perception to notice something. You both get to roll and if one of you sees the thing, you can tell the other.

Gefgef wrote:

2. Should I have made my character unmanifest his eidolon? They were not in combat, but I thought about it after the fact and it felt like cheating. Keep in mind I do not have Reactive Dismissal (although it was not a damaging effect).

I swear I try to follow the rules but there are many of them.

That is entirely up to you. Your justification that you notice your Eidolon starting to do something that seems out of the normal would be good enough in my opinion.


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1. You are correct. The summoner and eidolon roll saves separately. For effects that deal damage or target your shared pool of actions, you are only affected once but take the worse of the two results.

2. Technically, since the eidolon gets its actions from the summoner, if the eidolon is under a compulsion effect you can simply choose not to give it actions. Under teh rules for the eidolon there is a section called Lost and Altered Actions that specifies what happens if either of you is being controlled by an effect.


Nothing To See Here wrote:
2. Technically, since the eidolon gets its actions from the summoner, if the eidolon is under a compulsion effect you can simply choose not to give it actions. Under teh rules for the eidolon there is a section called Lost and Altered Actions that specifies what happens if either of you is being controlled by an effect.

That is correct. The Summoner could simply refuse to give the Eidolon actions instead of unmanifesting it.

However, that isn't the concern. The bigger concern is whether the player was metagaming by doing either of those options rather than allowing the Eidolon to experience the consequences of the failed Will save. Did the Summoner actually know that the Eidolon had failed a save and was going to get into trouble?

Maybe. Since the Summoner succeeded at the same Will save. And the Eidolon was doing something out of the ordinary with no good reason.

But maybe not. Since what the Eidolon was doing wasn't inherently dangerous. The Summoner doesn't normally go around manifesting and unmanifesting the Eidolon on a whim for no reason.


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I don't think you did anything inherently wrong based on the info you've provided. The summoner and eidolon are linked in a way that basically demands and near constant back and forth on 'what should we do' with the summoner being the dominant partner.

I think if you're concerned about these issues, ask your GM "when my eidolon feels compelled to sit down, does it seem weird to me or does something seem off about it?" Given that you also succeeded at the will save, you probably had every right to be suspicious but if you're worried about metagaming, ask your GM what they think.

To me if your actions avoided some kind of trap or haunt thanks to your eidolon / summoner relationship, I think it's not that dissimilar if you have a party member who had a good perception mod or trap sense and managed to detect in in advance.

Liberty's Edge

Ahhh, the good old "does my character know if they made a will save" question but with extra steps.

I don't have an answer for you as it's an area that seems to be left undefined. That said, in the situation you described I don't think that if this happened outside of combat that them taking a seat, seemingly of their own accord would really set off any alarms or raise flags at all.

Horizon Hunters

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Normally it wouldn't but summoners have a constant telepathic connection with their Eidolons, and I see that as they know what the other is thinking immediately. So it would be weird to be searching and then suddenly you hear "I'm gonna sit down on this couch".

Grand Archive

There is a massive amount if nuance on the subject of metagaming. I find the solution to the question often lies in the contextual roleplay.

I somewhat agree with Cordell. As summoners mechanically have a telepathic connection, your character(s)'s rp could be that they constantly share their thoughts with their bonded partner. Another completely reasonable rp is that they can chat via their connection telepathically and that is the extent of the 'telepathic connection'. Each would have different answers to your question 2.

For me, I wouldn't really put any emphasis on the action economy of the summoner outside of combat, except when necessary. They are intended to be different beings and I see no reason not to treat them that way. My conceptualization behind the action economy in the time scale of combat is how, in the small scale timing, the duo deals with the intensity of a vitality link as well as a telepathic connection in the moment.

I would encourage anyone playing a summoner to decide on how the connection works rp-wise upon character creation. I encourage this because the rp of the character(s)'s can be greatly enriched by making the decision, regardless of what you decide.


Does unmanifesting stop the effect? What about the next round when you remanifest?


Conditions keep ticking while unmanifested - the Eidolon still exists somewhere (the question of "where" gets very odd for the material plane natives though!). At least I don't recall anything saying they stop ticking...? This gets strange for persistent damage and afflictions, of course...


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Sort-of. The rules don't really specify which happens.

It implies that the Eidolon still exists somewhere in some fashion. But it is less clear if that is in the same body or not. Because Manifest Eidolon has both the Conjuration and Teleportation traits. The lore of summoning in this edition is that the caster is creating a new caricature of something out of energy or borrowed matter rather than just teleporting in something that already existed.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
The lore of summoning in this edition is that the caster is creating a new caricature of something out of energy or borrowed matter rather than just teleporting in something that already existed.

There's nothing really to suggest that's how Manifest is supposed to work though. They're explicitly not summoned creatures and we're told Eidolons return to their home plane when they unmanifest for instance, which doesn't make sense if you're creating a caricature. There's just nothing there to support the idea.

Summoner's Precaution even explicitly says your Eidolon still suffers other effects from the triggering attack.


Squiggit wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
The lore of summoning in this edition is that the caster is creating a new caricature of something out of energy or borrowed matter rather than just teleporting in something that already existed.
There's nothing really to suggest that's how Manifest is supposed to work though.

I wouldn't say nothing.

Manifest Eidolon wrote:
your eidolon's physical form dissolves


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Squiggit wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
The lore of summoning in this edition is that the caster is creating a new caricature of something out of energy or borrowed matter rather than just teleporting in something that already existed.

There's nothing really to suggest that's how Manifest is supposed to work though. They're explicitly not summoned creatures and we're told Eidolons return to their home plane when they unmanifest for instance, which doesn't make sense if you're creating a caricature. There's just nothing there to support the idea.

The lore is from the school of magic which is relevant. The traits are on the Manifest action. It is a general discussion of this type of magic. It is however just a probable intepretation.

Squiggit wrote:


Summoner's Precaution even explicitly says your Eidolon still suffers other effects from the triggering attack.

Like on going damage? How does that work out for the summoner?

Or on going status effects?

Its a land mine of a rules area and is undefined. It has positive and negative implications for the Summoner. They just need to tell us how to run it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gortle wrote:


The lore is from the school of magic which is relevant. The traits are on the Manifest action. It is a general discussion of this type of magic. It is however just a probable intepretation.

The lore talks about how Summoned monsters work, but Eidolons specifically aren't Summoned monsters. I just don't think it's particularly relevant.


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Yes, the Eidolon doesn't necessarily follow the rules for regular summoned creatures from summoning spells.

But the rules for Eidolon don't really give us anything specific to use instead for questions about persistent damage or other ongoing effects.

Just the somewhat contradictory statements that the Eidolon both goes back to its home plane*, and its physical body dissolves.

* Which may actually be the regular material plane too for some eidolons like the Beast Eidolon.

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