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You say in your guide that the Mirror implement provides infinite 2-action teleports...but isn't it really infinite 1-action teleports? As far as I can tell, you don't need to end your Mirror's Reflection to use it again, so you can just create a duplicate with an action, and with your next action, create a duplicate 15' from the duplicate (which is also you!). This would allow you to move up to 45' on your turn. Shame about that adept benefit, though. ![]()
VestOfHolding wrote: These are great! Thanks for making these. You're welcome! I just added Gunslinger, Magus, and Summoner, so all classes are to my knowledge covered. I've also made sure all have at least one set of ratings. Do you find those useful? Now that I've got all classes, I might go back and revisit some design choices. Each class was in some senses a new experiment, so not everything is consistent, and not everything works that well. Some particular things I might change if I have the time & inclination: Ratings matching the guide's style: The dots-for-stars thing never really worked for me, so I might translate that to numbers across the board. In general it might be better to standardize how the charts present ratings. (I gotta say though, FlurryofBlunders's use of ★ ● ◆ ▼ in their Summoner guide works surprisingly well for at-a-glance recognition, better than numbers.) I also experimented with the numerals being colored vs. the circles, not sure which I like better. Guides that split ratings over two ranks proved to be quite a pain, although they often had good reason (such as the rank depending on subclass). Feat bubble borders & fill: Originally it was pretty useful to have the Core Rule Book and Advanced Player's Guide distinguished, but for all the other classes, there is no such distinction to be made. I tried different borders for fun, but the idea is to convey information. I just don't know what new information would be most useful to convey via borders. I applied gradients to Ranger warden spells, stances, and Champion/Cleric alignment-based feats, but I'm not sure how useful those really are. (Color-blindness is always an issue with just using color differences, in any case.) Page Numbers: I had a request early on for page numbers, but pushed back against that. It's easy enough to click the feat and open Archives of Nethys, which does give page numbers, and page numbers on the charts would really clutter things up. What do you think? I mean, at this point it would be a lot of work too! :-P Feat Groupings: Looking back, I see I changed how I grouped certain feats across classes, so I will probably review that at some point. Fighter: Fighter wound up with so many groupings I broke it into separate charts, one for each fighting style. Do you find that useful or would you rather have a single chart? As always, if you find any errors, or have any suggestions on how to improve these, please do post here. I'd be particularly interested to know how the feat groupings are working for you. Are they helping you plan a build? Are they leading you astray in any way? ![]()
Hello...been away a while after my Pathfinder group fell apart and I guess these charts went away with my group stuff! Sorry about that. John R asked me to put the charts back up, so here you go. Please use this new thread to post requests & error reports. And I'm sure you will find errors! (Archives of Nethys stopped loading http links so I had to change all those to https.) Pathfinder 2 Class Feat Charts The idea of these charts is to show at a glance how class feats are related, by dependency and functional area, along with useful notes and keywords. Most charts include ratings from particular class guides. You can click on any feat to look up its full description at the Archives of Nethys, and the ratings citation at top right to open the cited guide. There are lots more class guides now so I doubt I'll be incorporating them all on the charts themselves, it just gets crazy. I could link to each class's guides on the individual charts, but it might be best to just link to Zenith's Guide to the Guides. If there's a particular guide's ratings you really really want incorporated, feel free to ask. I could also publish the charts without any guide ratings at all, if you would prefer that. Note that my OmniGraffle Pro source document is in the folder, so if you have that app you can muck with a personal copy of the charts or make your own for particular classes I haven't gotten to yet. (I'm doing new classes as I have time & interest, but I don't expect to cram in every new supplemental feat outside of core books.) Please do report any errors you find here. ![]()
Evilgm wrote:
I've certainly seen people claiming an 18 in the main stat is (still) critical, and even when not I've gotten a strong impression from many forum posts and class guides that such is the case. It's good to finally hear some people refuting that claim. ![]()
Yeah, if you can't hit with your main attack, none of the riders based on Int are even relevant. I went for a dwarf inventor cause it seemed an interesting combo, but could only manage Str 16 / Int 16 (unless there's some way of nabbing Str 18 I missed). Yay for stereotyped ancestries—but that's a whole 'nother kettle o' fish. ![]()
Puna'chong wrote: Yeah, it's part of the Merriam-Webster definition, but it's really very uncommon. In the US at least. I've only ever heard of it used in relation to a trick, never a physical device. Apart from a gimmick very often involving a particular physical device, of course. But the device is not the trick. ![]()
The construct modifications didn't seem that interesting to me, but I still wanted a construct, so for the theorycraft build I made (see the other thread about posting your build), I went with the weapon innovation and the level 1 construct companion feat and upgrades. I doubt I'll get a chance to actually test it though, I don't know anybody who does playtests. The upgrades to damage aren't that useful if your bigger-damage attacks can't actually hit the target. Based on how I've seen the numbers go in my home group, I'd rather have more to-hit and lower damage for my construct. Or maybe what I need is a good mentor for tactical debuffing, which my home group doesn't really do. :-/ In general though, I think I'd prefer the construct have more utility options than combat options. Spellcasters have so much of the utility ground already covered, but but that would open the option for groups with fewer/no spellcasters. I understand extra gadgets are on the table for after the initial playstest period so we'll ahve to wait on that. ![]()
Not fully detailed but mostly there. Weapon innovation + a regular construct via the level 1 class feat. I detailed a construct innovation as an alternative build. Either way the construct could serve as a mount. Idea is to lean heavily into the crafting aspect and also get some of the tanky benefit of being a dwarf, since this build doesn't take the armor innovation. Focus skills are Crafting (obviously) and Athletics (because melee), and then I went for Society just because it's INT-based and a little dash of flavor. Haven't even considered dedications, but there might be a good one that I could trade some class feats out for. (Suggestions welcome.) What do you think? Anvil Dwarf Inventor STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 12, CHA 8 Anvil Dwarf Heritage grants Crafting, Specialized Crafting (blacksmithing, woodworking). - This is the Crafting class par excellence, so I guess I'll push that as far as I can. Background: Laborer – Athletics, Athletics Lore, Hefty Hauler feat (+2 to bulk limits). - Guess I'm the party mule! (I wanted Tinker for Engineering Lore but it overlaps with the ancestry, losing a skill feat. Inventor gets plenty of skills though so I just take Engineering Lore as one of the free choices.) Additional skills: Acrobatics, Arcana, Engineering Lore, Occultism, Society, Stealth, Thievery. - Obvious picks are the INT and STR skills, with a bit of room for other useful skills. Innovation: Weapon
Level 1: Modular Head or Razor Prongs - Looks like a Maul obviates a couple modifications right off the bat! Level 9: Aerodynamic or Manifold Alloy Level 17: Momentum Retainer or Rune Capacity - Both seem like nice boosts. The innovation modifications for the construct didn't really grab me but some of the base features are nice. I think I could switch this build to a construct innovation without much fuss. Or Possibly...Innovation: Construct
Level 1: Accelerated Mobility - Good for when it becomes my mount. Level 9: Advanced Weaponry - Complex Simplicity (bump damage die size) or Razor Prongs (if its Athletics will be enough) Level 17: Runic Keystone or Resistant Coating. The innovation modifications for the construct didn't really grab me but some of the base features are nice, and having Overdrive apply to both the construct and the inventor is very nice. I think I could switch this build to a construct innovation without much fuss. Ancestry & General Feats
1a) Dwarven Doughtiness (frightened reduces by 2)
3g) Fleet •OR• Incredible Initiative •OR• Toughness - The big three; it's a question of what order to take them. But for a dwarf with 20' move, Fleet is probably going to be first.
Class Feats
1c) Prototype Companion - If I do a construct innovation, I might go with Tamper here, but I'm really not sure about the level 1 feats.
Notably, without knowing exactly how they're going to fix the whole unstable thing, I'm not tempted to pick many feats with the keyword, which is one of the reasons I'm doing a weapon but taking so many companion feats. Many of the unstable class feats seem a bit underwhelming anyhow. Skill Training & Feats
3t) Expert Crafting - This is going up first, obviously.
1s) Specialty Crafting (blacksmithing, woodworking) - from Anvil Dwarf ancestry
2s) Assurance (Crafting) - seems like an obvious pick
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Puna'chong wrote: I hadn't seen that they've acknowledged that DC 17 for Unstable is high though, so that changes my view a bit. Where I was coming from was basically that if I'm getting off one, maybe two Unstable abilities per combat, they need to be more than a turn or else I'm just snagging something else with Celerity. It was right in the "welcome to the playtest" post. But it was easy to miss, as with so many things in Paizo prose.... ![]()
Invictus Novo wrote:
For this alone I think they should make it clear that if you are riding your construct, you are not hit by the explosion. ![]()
Cordell Kintner wrote:
Ah, so I could actually not be able to take three things! :-D It's fine, I went with Laborer. Inventors aren't exactly starved for skill choices. ![]()
QuidEst wrote: - A construct's base weapon is 1d8. They have 1d6 as an agile finesse secondary. Ah well that's better then. Something about Paizo's writing makes it really easy for me to miss key bits of information. QuidEst wrote: - Explode centering on yourself is less risky than on your construct, because unless I missed something, it can't hit yourself. Yes, but to explode with any impact, you have to be in the thick of melee, which means you are definitely getting pounded on. With the construct exploding, you could trigger it from a safer position, and possibly be using a ranged weapon. That's not how this build is...built, but it's a possibility. ![]()
TheGentlemanDM wrote:
Good points, all. I was a little biased because my current character throws lightning bolts, so when I first saw it I was like, "yeah, done that". :-P ![]()
Each bullet will have to be crafted as an item with the desired spell effect, but you will also have quick crafting to make magic bullets that only last until your next daily prep. Attachments to the gun will allow for metamagic: a scope for Reach Spell, a diffuser for Widen Spell, and the like, but they will require the extra action to take effect as usual. Maybe you can only have one such device on your gun at a time, but you can swap them. ![]()
I think one big loss of going with a weapon innovation and a regular construct companion is that then Overdrive doesn't apply to the construct as well, which it does with a construct innovation. Also, having Explode center on myself instead of my disposable/replaceable construct is living more dangerously. Then again, all the boosts to my own weapon, a 1d12 maul, look like they'll really pile up over the construct's base 1d6 damage (which as an innovation would be upgradable to 1d8). I haven't really thought about the Cortex upgrades to Intimidation, Stealth, and Survival. I can see a hissing, clanking, clockwork beast being intimidating, but sneaky? I'll leave scouting to the familiars and tracking to the rangers. ![]()
Okay so here we go. Just based on my first read of Inventory and digging around at bits in the main rulebook. The idea is to have a decent front-/mid-line armored combatant, with a mount at some point. Browver - Anvil Dwarf Inventor STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 12, CHA 8 Anvil Dwarf Heritage grants Crafting, Specialized Crafting (blacksmithing, woodworking) This is the Crafting class par excellence, so I guess I'll push that as far as I can. Background: Laborer – Athletics, Athletics Lore, Hefty Hauler feat (+2 to bulk limits) Guess I'm the party mule! Additional skills: Acrobatics, Arcana, Engineering Lore, Occultism, Society, Stealth, Thievery Obvious picks are the INT and STR skills, with a bit of room for other useful skills. Innovation: Weapon
Level 1: Modular Head or Razor Prongs - Looks like a Maul obviates a couple modifications right off the bat! Level 9: Aerodynamic or Manifold Alloy Level 17: Momentum Retainer or Rune Capacity, - Both seem like nice boosts. - Extensible Weapon or Impossible Alloy as needed. The innovation modifications for the construct didn't really grab me but some of the base features are nice. I think I could switch this build to a construct innovation without much fuss. Innovation: Construct
Level 1: Accelerated Mobility - Good for when it becomes my mount. Level 9: Advanced Weaponry - Complex Simplicity or Razor Prongs (if its Athletics will be enough) Level 17: Runic Keystone or Resistant Coating. The innovation modifications for the construct didn't really grab me but some of the base features are nice. I think I could switch this build to a construct innovation without much fuss. Ancestry & General Feats
1a) Dwarven Doughtiness (frightened reduces by 2)
3g) Fleet •OR• Incredible Initiative •OR• Toughness - These are the big three, it's a question of what order to take them. But for a dwarf with 20' move, Fleet is probably going to be first.
Class Feats
1c) Prototype Companion - If I do a construct innovation, I might go with Tamper here, but I'm really not sure about the level 1 feats.
Notably, without knowing exactly how they're going to fix the whole unstable thing, I'm not tempted to pick many feats with the keyword, which is one of the reasons I'm doing a weapon but taking all the companion feats. Many of the unstable class feats seem a bit underwhelming anyhow. Skill Training Feats
3t) Expert Crafting - This is going up first, obviously.
1s) Specialty Crafting (blacksmithing, woodworking) - from Anvil Dwarf ancestry
2s) Assurance (Crafting) - seems like an obvious pick
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In hopes I might find a chance to playtest this class, I'm thinking about building up a dwarf inventor, with a weapon innovation but also a construct companion that will become a mount when it's advanced. I'd be taking ancestry & other feats to boost survivability to cover the defense side of things. I usually play caster classes, though, so I'm not terribly up to speed on melee weapons., I'm going to be looking over the weapons but if you have any advice for someone new to that aspect of the game, I'd love to hear it. Anvil Dwarf heritage and Tinker background are pretty obvious, although that winds up doubling the Specialty Crafting feat and I don't recall if you can replace one of those like you can a skill training. Likely starting stats: STR 14, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 18, WIS 12, CHA 8 If dropping INT for STR is viable I might do that. Or I might do a ranged-weapon build with DEX, although that's not really how dwarves roll. I can post more about the build when I have it figured out. ![]()
I know that you can swap out a duplicate skill from a background, but do you do that with skill feats as well? For example, I am thinking of making an Anvil Dwarf with the Tinker background. Both of those grant the Specialty Crafting skill feat. Can I change one of them because they are both the same? If not I can go with some other background I guess, but the Engineering Lore is quite apt for the concept. ![]()
If I had the opportunity to run an Inventor, he would have a Mecha-Dino construct to ride around and look badass on. It's a shame you can't have two innovations. I'd settle for even a minor techno-weapon to shoot more lightning with. Champions get Second Ally at 8th level, why couldn't an Inventor have a Second Innovation class feat? ![]()
I wouldn't miss an Animal Companion's support action—they're too fiddly to bother with in my opinion. Anyhow, a construct has a pretty long list of immunities, and with various class feat(ure)s it can explode, heal you & your friends, turn into a suitcase, be your sweet ride, shoot lightning, and do a whirling dervish AE attack on everything in 30'. I see much to like. But maybe they will tune the attack numbers a bit. ![]()
They could, but then it would be just another focus pool. Mad scientists are supposed to have their wacky inventions fritz out when the cool experimental feature is overused! A focus pool wouldn't have that. I mean, I suppose you could say you have a focus pool of 1, but that you can use your focus (that is, unstable) abilities even if you have no focus points, but then you have to roll a DC 17 flat check or it fritzes and you can't use any more focus (that is, unstable) abilities. But you'd only ever have 1 focus point, so what's the, erm, point? I mean, I suppose you could add more focus points* so that you can use focus (that is, unstable) abilities X number of times before you risk the short-circuit/mechanism jam/minor explosion, but it really is a different thing. * Actually there's a 14th-level class feat that kinda, sorta, does that, but not really. ![]()
I like that it isn't Focus, and instead involves some randomness over whether your gadget fritzes out. I do think there should be some mid/low-level support to bring the DC down from 17, and not just a high-ish level class feat that lets you completely skip the check (at the cost of losing further unstable actions until you retune your doodad).
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