Hello...been away a while after my Pathfinder group fell apart and I guess these charts went away with my group stuff! Sorry about that. John R asked me to put the charts back up, so here you go. Please use this new thread to post requests & error reports. And I'm sure you will find errors! (Archives of Nethys stopped loading http links so I had to change all those to https.)
The idea of these charts is to show at a glance how class feats are related, by dependency and functional area, along with useful notes and keywords.
Most charts include ratings from particular class guides. You can click on any feat to look up its full description at the Archives of Nethys, and the ratings citation at top right to open the cited guide. There are lots more class guides now so I doubt I'll be incorporating them all on the charts themselves, it just gets crazy. I could link to each class's guides on the individual charts, but it might be best to just link to Zenith's Guide to the Guides. If there's a particular guide's ratings you really really want incorporated, feel free to ask.
I could also publish the charts without any guide ratings at all, if you would prefer that. Note that my OmniGraffle Pro source document is in the folder, so if you have that app you can muck with a personal copy of the charts or make your own for particular classes I haven't gotten to yet. (I'm doing new classes as I have time & interest, but I don't expect to cram in every new supplemental feat outside of core books.)
Please do report any errors you find here.
Yeah, if you can't hit with your main attack, none of the riders based on Int are even relevant.
I went for a dwarf inventor cause it seemed an interesting combo, but could only manage Str 16 / Int 16 (unless there's some way of nabbing Str 18 I missed). Yay for stereotyped ancestries—but that's a whole 'nother kettle o' fish.
The construct modifications didn't seem that interesting to me, but I still wanted a construct, so for the theorycraft build I made (see the other thread about posting your build), I went with the weapon innovation and the level 1 construct companion feat and upgrades. I doubt I'll get a chance to actually test it though, I don't know anybody who does playtests.
The upgrades to damage aren't that useful if your bigger-damage attacks can't actually hit the target. Based on how I've seen the numbers go in my home group, I'd rather have more to-hit and lower damage for my construct. Or maybe what I need is a good mentor for tactical debuffing, which my home group doesn't really do. :-/
In general though, I think I'd prefer the construct have more utility options than combat options. Spellcasters have so much of the utility ground already covered, but but that would open the option for groups with fewer/no spellcasters. I understand extra gadgets are on the table for after the initial playstest period so we'll ahve to wait on that.
Not fully detailed but mostly there. Weapon innovation + a regular construct via the level 1 class feat. I detailed a construct innovation as an alternative build. Either way the construct could serve as a mount. Idea is to lean heavily into the crafting aspect and also get some of the tanky benefit of being a dwarf, since this build doesn't take the armor innovation.
Focus skills are Crafting (obviously) and Athletics (because melee), and then I went for Society just because it's INT-based and a little dash of flavor. Haven't even considered dedications, but there might be a good one that I could trade some class feats out for. (Suggestions welcome.)
What do you think?
Anvil Dwarf Inventor
STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 12, CHA 8
Anvil Dwarf Heritage grants Crafting, Specialized Crafting (blacksmithing, woodworking). - This is the Crafting class par excellence, so I guess I'll push that as far as I can.
Background: Laborer – Athletics, Athletics Lore, Hefty Hauler feat (+2 to bulk limits). - Guess I'm the party mule! (I wanted Tinker for Engineering Lore but it overlaps with the ancestry, losing a skill feat. Inventor gets plenty of skills though so I just take Engineering Lore as one of the free choices.)
Additional skills: Acrobatics, Arcana, Engineering Lore, Occultism, Society, Stealth, Thievery. - Obvious picks are the INT and STR skills, with a bit of room for other useful skills.
Level 1: Modular Head or Razor Prongs - Looks like a Maul obviates a couple modifications right off the bat!
Level 9: Aerodynamic or Manifold Alloy
Level 17: Momentum Retainer or Rune Capacity - Both seem like nice boosts.
The innovation modifications for the construct didn't really grab me but some of the base features are nice. I think I could switch this build to a construct innovation without much fuss.
Or Possibly...Innovation: Construct
Level 1: Accelerated Mobility - Good for when it becomes my mount.
Level 9: Advanced Weaponry - Complex Simplicity (bump damage die size) or Razor Prongs (if its Athletics will be enough)
Level 17: Runic Keystone or Resistant Coating.
The innovation modifications for the construct didn't really grab me but some of the base features are nice, and having Overdrive apply to both the construct and the inventor is very nice. I think I could switch this build to a construct innovation without much fuss.
Ancestry & General Feats
1a) Dwarven Doughtiness (frightened reduces by 2)
3g) Fleet •OR• Incredible Initiative •OR• Toughness - The big three; it's a question of what order to take them. But for a dwarf with 20' move, Fleet is probably going to be first.
1c) Prototype Companion - If I do a construct innovation, I might go with Tamper here, but I'm really not sure about the level 1 feats.
Notably, without knowing exactly how they're going to fix the whole unstable thing, I'm not tempted to pick many feats with the keyword, which is one of the reasons I'm doing a weapon but taking so many companion feats. Many of the unstable class feats seem a bit underwhelming anyhow.
Skill Training & Feats
3t) Expert Crafting - This is going up first, obviously.
1s) Specialty Crafting (blacksmithing, woodworking) - from Anvil Dwarf ancestry
2s) Assurance (Crafting) - seems like an obvious pick
Invictus Novo wrote:
For this alone I think they should make it clear that if you are riding your construct, you are not hit by the explosion.
Each bullet will have to be crafted as an item with the desired spell effect, but you will also have quick crafting to make magic bullets that only last until your next daily prep. Attachments to the gun will allow for metamagic: a scope for Reach Spell, a diffuser for Widen Spell, and the like, but they will require the extra action to take effect as usual. Maybe you can only have one such device on your gun at a time, but you can swap them.
If I had the opportunity to run an Inventor, he would have a Mecha-Dino construct to ride around and look badass on. It's a shame you can't have two innovations. I'd settle for even a minor techno-weapon to shoot more lightning with. Champions get Second Ally at 8th level, why couldn't an Inventor have a Second Innovation class feat?
They could, but then it would be just another focus pool. Mad scientists are supposed to have their wacky inventions fritz out when the cool experimental feature is overused! A focus pool wouldn't have that.
I mean, I suppose you could say you have a focus pool of 1, but that you can use your focus (that is, unstable) abilities even if you have no focus points, but then you have to roll a DC 17 flat check or it fritzes and you can't use any more focus (that is, unstable) abilities. But you'd only ever have 1 focus point, so what's the, erm, point?
I mean, I suppose you could add more focus points* so that you can use focus (that is, unstable) abilities X number of times before you risk the short-circuit/mechanism jam/minor explosion, but it really is a different thing.
* Actually there's a 14th-level class feat that kinda, sorta, does that, but not really.
I like that it isn't Focus, and instead involves some randomness over whether your gadget fritzes out. I do think there should be some mid/low-level support to bring the DC down from 17, and not just a high-ish level class feat that lets you completely skip the check (at the cost of losing further unstable actions until you retune your doodad).
That's a pretty obvious modification that should be there.
Haha that's what most of the reviews of the 5e Artificer said. They couldn't have been more obvious about it. The Inventor here manages to have some distinct flavor though.
You could also just run some very short standalone encounters to get used to the rules before everybody gets all invested in their characters. Your players could try the same scenario several times with different classes/builds and tactics to see what they like, before diving into a full campaign. I wish I'd been able to do that, I was just told to roll up a 7th-level character and join the existing group with little info on who was playing what.
The Raven Black wrote:
I think the differentiated outline works really well for showing off source! Sufficiently different colors and/or textures/designs would work fine -- surely OmniGraffle (assuming that's what you're using) has some outline options, right?
Yep, it's OmniGraffle, and it's got lots of options for border outlines & such. I'm already using a gradient for the special Ranger focus spells, and stances.
The Raven Black wrote:
Added the Archer dedication archetype. Let me know how the format works for you. I'm including the feats duplicated from other classes as grouping named for the class (in italics). I'm wondering if there's some way I could indicate the levels of those feats in their original classes for comparison, and whether that would actually be useful.
My storm/animal/leaf druid is almost more versatile than I can stand. I've got blasting, buffing, flanking, vulture vomit, healing. That might be overwhelming for a new player, but then again they can easily focus on whatever they like and switch/add as they get more comfortable. WIth a blastersorcerer you're more likely to be stuck with blasting your whole career.
Not That There's Anything Wrong With That™
I've got charts showing class feat dependencies, prerequisites, and more on google drive. I've just added mutliclass dedication archetypes today. Formats are PDF (with hyperlinks to Archives of Nethys and select class guides) and the original OmniGraffle source, for you Mac users.
I've grouped them into single files for martials, casters, and others (Alchemist & Investigator). You can really see the similarities & differences between them, as well as how some classes got stiffed a bit. :-)
Let me know if you find any mistakes, or you'd rather they were sliced up a different way. I could do a single class dedication per file (although if I do that they will al go in a subfolder).
Other archetype dedication feats may be a longer time coming, if ever; there are so many...still, I might knock one out every couple days, if there is interest.
It's true, sorcerer blood magic is by comparison a little...anemic. <ducks>
I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I won't do it again.
(I'll totally do it again.)
Matthew Downie wrote:
Nothing prevents a group at a table from rewinding and trying a combat over again. This is a cultural problem.
Jumping to a conclusion after trying something once is a separate problem, but I'll freely admit it's one I suffer from more in RPGs than in real life. :)
This is potentially something that I would be interested in lending a hand with. I say potentially because it is Christmas and the world is just as busy (if not busier) as it was before Covid. I had done a 1 on 1 session with a player who ran a full group through some of his own experimental ideas, and it seemed to be successful enough. A quick 5 encounter adventure should be good for getting the hang of good habits.
It doesn't have to happen right now. :-)
I'd be happy to try things out with you come the new year!
This first vid talks—among other things—about how min/maxers (optimizers) get bored, as has been discussed in a couple current topics on the forums. His solution is okay, although it seems those people might be happiest just running their latest new builds in one-shot combat scenarios. :-)
That said, I think that players who just do the same thing over and over, are in fact not optimized, especially if doing so leads to repeated TPKs. What remains a mystery to me is why so, apparently, many who are good at trying new things in terms of character builds can't manage to try something new in at-the-table tactics.
I like sorcerers best. Seems I can cover more character concepts with that one class than I can with many of the other casting classes.
Their core chassis is definitely built with that sort of thing front & center in the bloodlines. Oracle comes close with the curses & mysteries. Bit of a shame some of those packages are considered poor deals mechanically, but they are all dripping, exploding, oozing, or glowing with flavor.
I feel like you know me.
As for mid-combat options, I have to say, even after only a few sessions of play, this depends heavily on the whole team coordinating effectively, which I haven't seen happen yet. II think having to play through a VTT is also huge factor here, in the way it limits communication. That is a whole 'nother topic, though.
Yeah, the only thing I've found the rules say about specialist slots is: "You can prepare only spells of your chosen arcane school in these extra slots." It says nothing about what you do with those slots once you've prepared a spell in them. It might be an oversight, but as the rules are now, it's pretty clear you can dump a specialist slot into a staff to charge it up, regardless of the tradition the staff's spells are from.
So after reading BlueFrog's Hideously Biased Guide to the (Spell Blending) Wizard, I decided to start building one out. Goals:
This being Pathfinder 2, and me still being pretty new to it, things got complicated, of course. I've got more trained skills than I know what to do with, but I'm not sure what order to take skill rises or secondary ability boosts in; whether to get more (Lore?) skills just at trained; I don't know what to pick for some high-level skill & general feats after I've gotten the essentials; what might I retrain out later; and so on. I'm doing this exercise in a vaccuum, of course, so details would change depending on party, but I would like to have a coherent build regardless to feel I have a grip on the process.
Here are the details, with likely halcyon spell picks based on what looks interesting/effective/useful. Let me know what you think.
Versatile Human, Artisan background, Wizard
1a) Natural Ambition (1st-level class feat) - 1c) Familiar
1a) Versatile Human (general feat) - 1g) Canny Acumen: Expert Perception
1a) Languages: Common, Draconic, Goblin, Jotun, Orcish, Sylvan
1a) Background: Artisan - 1t) Crafting, Guild Lore; 1s) Specialty Crafting (wood)
2c) Magaambyan Attendant Dedication (Cascade Bearers) - primal cantrip: Guidance; 2t) trained in Nature, Primal spell attack & DC
3g) Incredible Initiative -OR- Fleet -OR- Toughness
3t) Expert Arcana
5b) INT 19, ???
6s) Society - Streetwise
8f) Expert Fortitude saves
9t) Master Arcana
15t) Legendary Crafting -OR- Arcana
16s) Crafting - Craft Anything
17a) Heroic Presence
Since Staff Nexus doesn't even come online until level 8—over a third of your character's career—you might be better off starting with another thesis, such as Spell Blending, and then retrain in downtime if you're really jonesing for more low-level spells per day. The book does explicitly allow retraining class features, however, it says your GM decides how long it takes, so that might gum up the idea.
Blue_frog has a lot to say about Spell Blending, I don't know if you're interested in the comparison.
You say that Staff Nexus only lets you trade higher-level spell slots for lower, but actually you can put two (eventually three) spell slots into the staff as charges, and then use them to cast any spells in the staff up to their combined levels plus your highest-level spell slot. That's up to 36 charges total by end-game. And you can spend them up as well as down, for a ton more low-level spells or a few more high-level spells. You can only do this once, of course, and only for spells in the staff.
So Staff Nexus is very versatile—if you're willing to spend the money on a cart full of staves to haul around with you and leave behind while you go delving. Which any thief will be more than happy to lay claim to. Maybe if you craft a staff with spells you know you'll use all the time you can avoid that.
Also, it comes online even later (at level eight!) than Spell Blending (at level three). So, Staff Nexus is okay for getting a few more higher-level spells and a lot more low-level spells—in mid to high-level play only. Spell Blending clearly wins for getting more, higher-level spell slots—throughout your career. If you can retrain your thesis in downtime, I suppose it might make sense for some to switch into it once it's actually useful.
There is Mage Armor, which, while it does chew up a spell slot, lasts as long as needed and gives bonuses to both AC and saves as you heighten it. How well that tracks with other classes' defenses, I leave as an exercise for somebody else. :-P (Also, Shield looks pretty astoundingly lame with that 10-minute cooldown.)
On the one hand, it's kind of annoying they built a crud chassis that requires those "extra" spells to fill in for, making them just so much more bookwork for wizards. On the other hand, if you're willing to forego filling in for your crud defenses, you can really focus on being the glass cannon many casters have a reputation for.
You're missing the part where you can cast any spell in the staff, regardless of level, by spending your spell slot of that level, but only one charge from the staff, rather than charges equal to the level of the spell.
So, a prepared caster using a staff with, say, fireball and three charges, could cast fireball from that staff once. Period.. A spontaneous caster could cast fireball up to three times, so long as they have the third-level spell slots. I'd guess thatspontaneous casters will want staves containing mostly spells that aren't in their repertoire, to expand that repertoire as much as possible.
The rulebook clearly, plainly, explicitly states that you cannot cast spells in a battle form. Page 301: "Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands."
It also clearly, plainly, explicitly, and separately says that you can't speak. Why can't you speak? Because the rules say so. Full stop, no reason given, tough luck.
Yes but why do the rules say so? You can speculate and argue and kibitz all you want; you can house-rule it for your group to be different. You can't change the fact that this is what the rulebook plainly says and that many groups abide by that.
This horse is dead, deceased, bereft of life. It is an ex-horse. We fellow players can't answer your questions; you'll have to ask the designers.
I was having trouble visualizing the weapon proficiency progressions for the various classes, so I made up some tables. I thought I'd share them in case they can help others.
Pathfinder 2 definitely needs more visualizations like this. Good work!
Interesting discussion. A lot of it depends on the type of game you're playing, of course, and the types of challenges your GM throws at you. If you're pressured to optimize narrowly, you'll probably do that. If your GM challenges the martials with charisma encounters and such, rather than always pitting the group against super-powerful monsters, you'll want to cover that rather than dumping charisma. It seems more folks do the former, than the latter.
Yes, Gortle, I have decided on a vulture! I named her Ghrda. If you know how to imitate a raven, you'll be able to pronounce it well.
Thank you for your guide, it's been very helpful. I posted a whole thing on my build a little while ago, in a new thread.
A snake would be interesting, for a non-tengu. Birds and snakes are ancient mortal enemies!