Midnightoker's page

Let's gooooo!

The more the merrier :)

Apologies we were unable to get the descriptions updated in time but Clerics+ and Impossible Lands+ have Foundry Modules, Pathbuilder2e, and Wanderer's Guide support (authors page).

Anyone looking to try a free adventure, I highly encourage The Longnight Before Krampus which also has a foundry module included!

Great job everyone!

This book is literally chef's kiss top to bottom. Just when you think the Lost Omens team can't outdo themselves, they do it again

I knew so little about the impossible lands before this book and now I can't wait to run a whole game there.

Look at all these wonderful people!

We are doing an AMA on the subreddit about becoming a content creator, PFI, and the Infinite Masters program.

Stop and by and ask the Alexander Augunas, Vanessa Hoskins, Luis Loza, Dustin Knight, Mark Moreland, and the DrivethruRPG team your questions

Hello all!

I'm super happy to announce that we were able to comeback with another installment in the Classes+ series and thanks to all the awesome support, it looks like we will probably not only continue the line but expand it.

If you want to check out the latest release, please visit the reddit post where you can get the link and an option to join the Classes+ discord

I also want to say there is a hugely value bundle on Infinite right now that you all can pick up over $200 worth of some of the best writers for only $25 bucks (or even less if you got the PaizoCon bundle).

Until next time

Happy Gaming

This mailing list goes out every week with information on new offerings, Pathfinder Infinite updates, and discounts on select products from a number of creators!

If you are a Pathfinder Infinite author and want to advertise your product on our mailing list, check out the #mailing-list channel on the Infinite Possibilities discord server!

Sign-ups for the Newsletter are here

For those looking to tune up their Witches a bit, a friend and I just launched this bad witch this weekend! Foundry support is supposed to drop in the next couple of weeks too.

Discount ending for this soon!
discount straight to cart

Thanks for all the support during the launch so far. We're just south of silver right now and couldn't be more blown away.

The discount link automatically puts you in your cart, so if you want to read the product first check it here!

Pathfinder Infinite Creators have joined forces to put out a really awesome mega bundle of great content for only $25 that has ~$100 total value of products (including Kitsune of Golarion and Luis Loza's Dragonkin!).

There are also other new releases at discounted rates for PaizoCon

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2eCreations/comments/uyyjps/pathfinder_i nfinite_paizocon_sale_megathread/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext &utm_name=Pathfinder2e&utm_content=t1_ia1fka8

I think if you were waiting to dip your toes into the Pathfinder Infinite space, this is a great place to get those feet wet!

As some of you were aware, the homebrew I made a year ago has become something more!

Legendary Wanderer is officially released!

Best wishes!

Hey all, the Pathfinder 2E subreddit is hosting a competition for homebrewers.

The basic premise is a series of 5 contests, the first of which is already underway, that will undergo private submissions, public discussion, and then judging by some prominent names in the community.

The winner and next 4 runner ups for each competition will be placed in the Brewmaster's Compendium, a supplement for Pathfinder Infinite where the proceeds will go to a designated charity. The top winner will have art commissioned for their entry by us mods, and the book will be curated by Dustin Knight!

No compensation, but a writing credit, likely a sub flair, and getting to benefit a charity seems like a fun way to engage with the community and Pathfinder Infinite.

I figured people here might want to compete.

For a better breakdown of the project, you can enter and view the full post here

Happy gaming!

I actually helped work on this product, and am willing to give little tidbits as teasers. Dustin Knight dropped a few things here and there as well in a separate thread.

Legendary Games is already known for its really great take on the Kineticist for PF2 (among many other things!), so I hope the Shaman can find its own place among the PF2 community.

Check it out here and check out all things Legendary as well! (especially the new Boricubos release)

Hey all,

The Pathfinder2e subreddit is hosting an AMA with some of the authors of The Grand Bazaar.

Do stop by and ask these wonderful people some questions!

Hey all,

I was thinking about famous Thaumaturge's in popular culture, and one of the ones I was thinking about was Dean Winchester.

And one of the issues I was having with seeing Dean as a Thaumaturge was that the only Implement that really made sense for him was the Weapon Implement.

But then I had an epiphany!

Dean's Implement is of course his 1967 Cheverolet Impala (or even more specifically the Radio/music).

So that got me thinking:

"What other types of implements do you want to see out of the Thaumaturge?"

INT Ancient Elf Distnat Grasp Psychic with the Investigator MCD. Grabbed Strain Mind and the ability to target from a separate square (Warp). Very interesting character themes going on, and more use of Mage Hand than I've ever seen in a game ever.

The use of marbles as Telekinetic Projectiles was fun. The psychic also used a light cast marble as essentially a floating torch they could move. Psychic was also able to dive and retrieve clues using Mage Hand from the ocean where the cliffs meet the water, to further their investigation. Psychic ultimately used Cantrips the entirety of their travels, but the amped cantrips were decently on par with others in the group.

Unleash Psyche never got used, which is both a good and a bad thing. With how infrequently combats go to 3 rounds, I think it might make more sense to be a triggerable state or even a Focus Spell or Stance of some kind. There's also the "how do I deal with this" of if an encounter "starts" but the PCs choose to prolong the engagement (running away in Part 1 Tendriculos) that they could realistically trigger this repeatedly from safety.

Something that's more limited in use but able to be turned on seems like a better way to approach Psyche Unleashed (though thematically, I do like that). Perhaps even triggering it under certain conditions (Will Save, mental damage, etc).

Thaumaturge Observations
One interesting thing is drinking from chalice does not have the manipulate trait, which means it did not trigger AoO. While that's probably fine considering it would have been devastating to use Chalice inside the Tendriculos reach, it was a bit weird that it didn't have that.

Both the player and I do not care at all for the mechanics around Find Flaws or that the Class is Charisma-based as a standard. The knowledge checks get extremely clunky out of combat and the fact that they lack Society means they can't really roll on any organizations that would be creepy or even specific humanoids that are associated with those types of things. I offered other roll options where it felt appropriate (mainly Occultism) but it felt really empty.

The entire class to both of us was screaming WISDOM, but then had this CHA Find Flaws stapled on top of it. One thing that was extremely frustrating was the player wanted to play a Dwarf, but without making drastic efforts to adjust the ability scores to get that much needed 18 in CHA, it just didn't work.

I really think the Class should just have an innate "Bardic Lore" for Monsters-only that uses a different ability other than CHA. The need to stack CHA for the Class is a self-created problem and it makes things really clunky.

I also think there's something "better" in terms of action rotations that can be done for their routine. It's extremely rigid in what you can and cannot do in a turn, to the point where we noticed it almost immediately after the limited amount of time we spent in combat.

Conclusions

Both classes are dripping with flavor. The Psychic IMO seems to need a lot less work than the Thaumaturge in terms of actual mechanics. Narrative-wise, both classes feel pretty solid, but then I had a creative player that really leaned into their Distant Grasp mechanics.

I think Psychic could almost be printed as is. Thaumaturge I would really like to see get some refinement on the mechanics and totally scrap the CHA dependency entirely.

This was two sessions, but probably my last playtest in the window. Been preparing for the birth of my child which will be before the Playtest even ends, so I was lucky to even get these sessions.

Happy Gaming!

Hey all,

So there was some discussion in a recent Witch thread about familiars and what they are lacking from some people's perspective.

One of the things that I think held the most weight was that Specific Familiars, while they may have powerful abilities, are not always appropriate for a character concept, or might not be powerful for certain builds/styles/etc.

And I thought some more options on the Specific Familiar front, and even just Familiars in general could not only allow people more options to get the most out of their familiars (something that actually works with your concept) but maybe also some rules about how GMs can let familiars participate/interact with the game without putting the rest of the players in "timeout" during those scenarios.

Anyways, I've been working on putting together a list of specific familiars that are not currently available that I think should be (Heck, the quasit literally mentions being used as a Familiar and didn't have a stat block for one!).

I put together a list of Familiars that I converted from the Bestiary in a similar capacity as the Faerie Dragon, Dweomercat Cub, and Imp.

For SoS, I modeled power off Faeria, for Damage I modeled off Dweomercat Cub's damage, and for buffs/utility and general Outsider based implementations, I went with Imp.

The following are my first list of Specific Familiars that are not currently in the game (at least to my knowledge). They are all tiny creatures, equal or below CL 2 (same power range as Faerie/Imp).

Goal - The goal was simple. Measure the abilities appropriately, try to incorporate enough of the original creature to make for a meaningful Familiar, and apply ability cost accordingly. There were a few occasions where I could have included "more" of the based Bestiary creature, but like the Imp/Faerie Dragon do not carry all of the original power/abilities of their Bestiary version, so is true for most of these (as should be expected).

TL;DR Here you go

__________________________________________________

The next thing I am going to add to this are "Familiar Archetypes", since all of these require more abilities than a standard familiar master will have without additional feat investment.

Familiar Archetypes are effectively going to be packages of Familiar abilities that cost 2 ability points but grant an added benefit as a bonus (similar to specific familiars, but on a smaller scale). There will also be additional Familiar ability in an Archetype that can be taken as the Familiar gains more abilities (either by Witch class progression, Wizard Thesis, or Enhanced Familiar).
_______________________________________________________

As always, this community is generally great with feedback, and that's why I posted it here first.

Happy Gaming and thanks if you took the time!

Others have stated this, but I wanted to talk about the fact that a Gunslinger is largely the exact same class/role as a Fighter that doesn't have the same firepower:

1. They lack anything above Light Armor, which should add some diversity, but with their main schtick being DEX based attacks, it largely plays the same as an Archer with PBS on Fighter. No real change to the Class.

2. Lack of AoO, which also doesn't make as much of a difference to Gunslingers with Guns (since it has to be a melee attack). You gain a "way" benefit instead, but I don't know that I would put an encounter opening move on the same level as the one of the most powerful martial reactions in the game.

3. Lack of choice on weapons pidgeon holes you into smaller combat versatility. This is supposed to be alleviated by Class Feats that accentuate Firearms, but the reality is that some of those Feats end up just being "buy backs" for powers that Fighter already got. Being the best at guns when guns are the same as any other weapon just means you have less options to choose from than the fighter.

4. Feats aren't the only thing that make up a Class, generally, when it is a Class Path based Class. The current Class paths don't really serve to change the playstyle of the Class so much as they enforce them with restricted access in some cases (and in others, they don't really change/enforce anything at all). Ways in general are rather flimsy as a defining choice. The Sniper can't always be sniping even with heavy focus on it, the Drifter can't always be using melee and in some cases shouldn't be, and the pistolero (the most flexible IMO) doesn't really have an identity at all, it's just the "default" gunslinger to me (as pretty much either of the other two styles can be done by this one as well).

5. Thematically, if you said Fighters can take any of the Gunslinger Feat options, the two Classes would play identical. Now personally to me, I think if you can't compare two Classes and see immediate and distinct differences before feats, then you have a real problem. The truth of the matter is that a Fighter "swallows" the Gunslinger in terms of proficiency. It has all the proficiencies the Gunslinger has and then some.

So what to do right?

Now personally, I had seen the Class coming to PF2 in a totally different light, but I think that expectation is likely not to be a thing.

Thus the next best route I think would make sense to explore is making the Ways a lot more distinct as Class choices. Instead of making each way Initiative/first round based, just give every Gunslinger Improved Initiative for free and then grant them something else that gives the Gunslinger something distinct.

In addition, I think all Gunslingers absolutely 100% need a "secondary weapons" option that allows you to carry Proficiency (at least in part) to your other weapons. These weapons can be weaker, simple, or some other restricting metric so as to keep them from overpowering the Fighter's niche (too many weapon group proficiencies is basically "all of them").

What do you all think? At this point, I've submitted my surveys and finished out my playtest and I'm just left feeling "Why wouldn't I just play Fighter and give him a gun?"

Where are you all? How do you feel about the Gunslinger as it compares to the other Classes in the game?

This was a fun session and I think all the characters had moments to shine, but in hindsight, the way things played out was a tad "milquetoast". Now that's mostly on me as the GM (and a little on luck since they could have encountered less "meh" encounters in other portions of the map) but overall as a baseline the Classes I think played fine.

Probably my last playtest in the window, but might get to squeeze in another (honestly I ran two different sessions this weekend so I'm GMd out for a bit LOL).

Happy Gaming!

After reading Overdrive, I had a thought.

Since Unstable is in such a rough place right now and INT as a Primary is struggling so much, I got to thinking that maybe adding a Crafting DC akin to Overdrive as a mechanic for Unstable might be able to address the Proficiency issue (INT not being addressed but required as Primary) and the Unstable mechanic.

Unstable changed:

Unstable actions rely on experimental functions of your innovation that even you can’t fully predict. After an unstable action is used on an innovation, using another one is dangerous. If you attempt to use another unstable action on it, you must attempt a hard DC of your level with the following outcomes:

Critical Success You successfully execute the Unstable action with no consequences

Success As Critical Success, but you increase the Crafting DC for actions with the Unstable trait by 5

Failure You complete the action but take your level in fire damage and cannot attempt any further actions with the Unstable trait.

An innovation’s creator can spend 10 minutes retuning their innovation and making adjustments to return it to functionality, making it safe to use an unstable ability on that innovation again and returning the Crafting DC to use an Unstable action back to the original Crafting DC.

To use an unstable action, you must be using your innovation (for example, wearing an armor innovation or wielding a weapon innovation). If you have a minion innovation, some unstable actions are taken by the minion instead of you. In these cases, only the minion can take that action—you can’t—and the minion needs to have been Commanded that turn to take the action.

Then you change Overdrive to read:

You gadgets whir with overwhelming power. Whenever you successfully use an action with the Unstable trait, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your Strikes and they deal additional damage equal to your Intelligence modifier until the end of your next turn.

This would do a few things (In my mind):

1. Now that Unstable is on the table more often, it prompts playstyles that revolve around using Unstable actions, which is thematic (using Explosive Leap and then punching someone sounds pretty on point). And unstable actions, while good, are not altogether broken to the point IMO. Using them two times in an encounter isn't earth shattering, and 3 times in an encounter (while rare) would be possible with this setup (which I think is okay in the right circumstances).

2. With Crafting DC being factored into Unstable, there is HIGH incentive to go INT now because INT gives you more reliability on your best types of actions and your damage access in Overdrive.

3. Overdrive's mechanic is good in theory, but it's basically flat damage and doesn't solve the to hit problem. You can't just give it to hit, because it's already decent as a damage booster and the buff lasts too long (plus INT to hit is already done). It's also a bit disconnected from the rest of the Class, like an action-tax Rage that's not altogether needed for other things (no Overdrive feats really).

4. Overdrive, the idea of "pushing your innovations past their limits" and tethering that to Unstable actions (by definition dangerous moves/unstable) makes a lot of thematic sense. You're rewarding people using Unstable actions with benefits (almost like an action triggered "rage" of sorts).

__________________________

It was just an idea I had, that maybe bring Overdrive and the Unstable trait together under Crafting DC as a governing mechanic can foster the choice of INT in an organic way as well as encourage Inventors to be using their Unstable actions more often.

Since we already know Unstable is changing, I figured I'd see how this one "tastes" to some people.

Will get to play more inventors tomorrow, so maybe I'll have more insights/thoughts then (heck maybe I'll dislike this tomorrow), but I like how the above isn't just "Give them INT to hit" while also greatly incentivizing INT as a class Primary and binding together some stuff.

Happy Gaming!

Overall Conclusion

Both Classes are certainly effective. They had some logistical issues both in combat and out of combat in terms of "exemplifying" their Class IMO, but they were definitely capable of filling their roles.

Both were also extremely fun to actuall play, despite their issues. There were rewarding moments (Gunslinger pop-shotting a fleeing enemy and crits, Explode crit failure on two enemies) that really made them the "stars" but they didn't invalidate other roles at the table.

Most importantly, the scenario I ran was an absolute blast for all involved. They ended up solving (90% at least) the adventure and reaching a satisfying conclusion (they want to maybe go at it again in March when we can all get together again).

Thanks again Paizo for putting these two together. Some touchups and maybe a little more nuance being added to them would go a long way. It was a fun game and the Classes contributed to that even in their current form.

Hey all,

Cozzymandias did a bang-up job the first time, but there were some issues with the "treadmill" feel of the Drifter and Grit.

This pass was an attempt to right some of the issues I personally saw with the Grit system. If you loved Cozzymandias' version or want to reference it (I didn't completely reinvent the wheel), please visit that here. I am also using the same Firearm table as listed in the back of Cozzymandias' version.

I went ahead and reworked the initial package of the Drifter, even adding a new Class Path called "Pacifist" which I think is iconic considering notable Drifter's like Vash the Stampede and Kenshin Himura who were pacifists.

I do plan to go back and rework most of the Class Feats to align with this new structure, but figured I'd share what I have so far (the plan is to convert most of the old Class Feats as is).

Mostly looking for feedback on this initial "foundation" that's being set, since getting those right first are IMO important for setting the tone of what Class Feats can and should look like.

Here's what I got

Happy Gaming everyone!

Hey all,

I did another go with a completely separate group at the level 7 mark so that way I could see how things functioned.

I felt this was a good level for testing for a couple of reasons:

1. Good damage level for Magus
2. Everyone gets 4th level spells
3. 2 General Feats and 2 Ancestry Feats means I'm analyzing the FULL package and not just Magus/Summoner blank

Party Consistency - I was only able to run a single GM PC and these two other team members, so this was a 3 person party playtest:

I did the same format as last time, Point A mandatory fight and pretty weak, Point B/C was a choice between two paths, and the last encounter was another choice between D/E. Between each, the party had opportunities to use exploration activities and Treat Wounds (not to full, but Champion had Ward Medic and Master Medicine, so enough to get everyone once).

The journey into The Ümberbüug (shadow bog in my homebrew) consisted of lots of difficult terrain, water, reeds (concealed), and rocks/cliff at the edge of one zone:

Encounter 1

This fight was pretty much fine. Even though there were 4 enemies against the party of 3, because they were CL-2, it was pretty advantageous for the Angel, who could not be flanked by them and also did bonus damage to the Mummy. The one highlight was the Magus critically failed the Bog Rot disease, and took 6 damage which they were not able to recover (although I did allow the Medic to Treat Clumsy 1 because I felt like -6 to max HP was enough of a downside).

Empathetic Plea was extremely good for the Gnome considering I treated the two entities separately, and it actually prevented an attack from the Grodair. It was hilarious to have a Gnome be all "don't hurt me" while the Eidolon was smashing things to bits.

Overall there were good moments here, including an Electric Arc Striking Spell for enough damage to drop the first Mummy from half HP. The Summoner used an AoE Heal which damaged the Mummies and healed them for solid value. Outside that there were no spells used. Nothing particularly notable outside seeing what I would have hoped to be a standard conclusion (and it was).

Encounter 2

This fight was actually pretty devastating. The Giant Slug got two Tramples on all 4 targets, and the Eidolon/Summoner got hit pretty hard here due to AoE being a factor. I had left a bag of salt hidden in the first encounter, which they did not find, so it was nothing but swinging for the fences here.

The Summoner did not spend any spells this encounter, as it was focused on flanking and dealing damage with the Eidolon. Overall, not much of a showing if we're being honest, and the Champion outdamaged them.

The Magus on the other hand showed the insane power of rolls. A Critical Hit on the Scythe is actually pretty nuts since they had Critical Specialization, Deadly 1d10, and in general Crits are good for Magus. They critically hit with their Heightened Sudden Bolt for just over 80 damage on a swing (Critical hit + "downgraded" Failure). In addition, they also SOMEHOW got a hit and then a critical failure on their Daze as the Slug was attempting to climb the sheer Cliff using its slug-like climb speed for more advantageous attacking position. On the flip side, the Magus striking spelled their Vampiric Touch and the creature Critically Succeeded the save (natural 20 and it had insane fortitude anyways), which was a total loss of a slot. The Magus used Haste at the start of this fight and they were now down to a single Haste (3rd level) and two True Strikes from Martial Caster.

I was worried they wouldn't have the DPS to drop the creature until the Magus walloped them that hard, and from there the fight got a lot more manageable.

After, they had to spend Prayer Beads heals, they had spent a Lay on Hands in combat since the Summoner had taken a LOT of damage from the two tramples, drank all three less healing potions, used Ward Medic, and used one of the Battle Medicines for each person due to the time constraints. They were not at full after this fight, but they were pretty close (above 90%).

Encounter 3

At the start of this, I was sure they were going to TPK because it went very poorly at first. They fought the creature near its mud hut, which it bashed through to start the encounter with everyone within reach.

AoO was very punishing to them.

This was also a first for me these players are new to TTRPGs and were unaware of Troll's weaknesses and regeneration powers. I know that sounds hard to believe, but it was the first time in like a decade where a player didn't "metagame" how to beat the troll at least a little bit. They legitimately had no idea.

Unfortunately, the Magus did not have Produce Flame, so the only reliable way ANYONE could deal Fire damage was using the Alchemist's Fires they had been provided with prior (2 of these) and a scroll of Searing Light (both of which were interacts to draw, and provoked).

The Summoner got punished HARD in this fight. Two AoOs and two parties that could trigger AoOs was a big punishment. They ended up having the Champion fish AoOs with using their Bow to help mitigate this a bit.

They repositioned to across the water bridge the trolls house was across which gave the fight a little more even positioning.

The Magus actually had Society, so it rolled Recall Knowledge on the Troll and critically succeeded, so I gave them the Weakness 10 Fire and the Regeneration value.

Unfortunately, this was after the Troll had already healed 100 HP.

Summoner eventually got Blood Vendetta off due to the AoO, and the Persistent Bleed came at a turn that was really important. They also triggered by drawing Searing Light, which fizzled. Next turn, they triggered BOTH AoOs and nearly died drawing the Alchemists Fire.

The Summoner was awful at ranged Martial weapon attacks, so it missed, but thankfully, I ruled (correctly I think?) that Splash damage of the Alchemist Fire still applied, and thus "11 damage" was done and Regen stopped. They then used their last action, since both AoOs were triggered to draw the second AF for next time. Vampiric Touch kept them in the fight, since the shared temp HP helped a lot.

Once again to save the day, the Magus had two True Strikes left and Haste active, which by the way is NUTS powerful turns for a Sustaining Steel IMO, and got critical hits off of both of them. One of which was just a standard attack, and the other was a Striking Spell Electric Arc. The Striking Spell Electric Arc Critically Hit and to top it off, the Troll Failed the save naturally, so it got a Critical failure. This dropped the Troll the same turn as the second alchemist fire had been applied, thus winning the fight.

Conclusions

Magus when they are hitting/critting is a lot of fun for players and helped turn fights from hopeless to winnable. I'm not sure I love how feast/famine it can be but I will say this both Sustaining Steel Magus players I've had have said this is their new favorite Class and they preferred it to their Druid (funny enough both were Druids in the separate campaigns).

Martial Caster is just absolute value. Both True Strikes were critical hits. Haste on Sustaining Steel feels like a "must" as soon as it was available. It opened up the Magus turn A LOT and allowed the Knockdown attacks to fit into the attack routine.

Summoner encouraged a lot more tactical play, and I think the Summoner player played the "smartest" but was ultimately probably the weakest of the 3 in terms of combat contribution. Now I will say they were going for more of a support role and their spells certainly helped that role, so not altogether surprising. With that said, the Eidolon literally felt like a ranged melee attack roll. Had almost no identity and did not feel unique to me in combat outside of it being another body.

Overall, I expected to be more concerned with the Magus, but the opposite is true. Magus seems to be fun, work, and be SUPER good. I would call the Magus (min-maxed to heck though) one of the stronger characters I've seen (though I haven't seen a level 7 Fighter alongside it) in terms of big hits.

Either way, the combats were exciting, my players had a lot of fun, and it was a good time had. My Magus player was one of the "lukewarm" on TTRPG players in my other group, so seeing him get excited playing his hulking scythe BAMF and hitting big was a nice treat.

___________

If you have any specific questions or anything, happy to answer! Thanks for the Playtest Paizo, hopefully get these guys to submit surveys shortly and then fill mine out at some point too.

Hey all, I ran a set of encounters in a homebrew setting over the weekend.

I deliberately chose level 4 because I believe it is the level that both these classes will feel "whole" the most (due to having maxed spells of all available levels and 2 Class Feats a piece at least).

It consisted of 3 encounters total, each getting progressively harder with a binary path in the middle of two paths. They were allowed exploration mode tactics to determine which of the paths to take.

* I did play with Mark's suggested change to Act Together. I think action economy would have slowed down considerably and been more clunky without that fix, even though in some cases it would have been possible to "puzzle piece" the round together to work.

Party Consistency:

Battle Oracle Orc with a focus on healing, Baba Yaga Witch as accompaniment.

The Battle Oracle Orc was a GM PC that that I rarely used to attack other than trip attempts.

The Witch help setup and assisted with Needle of Vengeance and spells.

Human Sustaining Steel Magus with Meteor Hammer, Familiar, Enhanced Familiar and Bespell Strikes - Sudden Bolt, Blur, True Strike, and Shocking Grasp

Tengu Beast Summoner Beastmaster (Bird) with Mature Animal Companion, Heal, Summon Fey

The path they chose had the following encounters in order:

If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer. I recorded the session, but I lost one of the recordings, so all I have now is discord rolls to go through for hard numbers. Majority of the damage was done by the Magus and the Summoner and they did successfully conserve their resources and move through an adventuring day that I would consider standard (albeit almost dying in encounter 3 due to some horrendous rolls).

Hey all, this was just a neat thing my player was toying with while trying to make a character last night (they ended up going a different direction), and I'm sure it's been said before in another context but nonetheless wanted to share:

Them: I want to get a level 1 Class Feat since I'm human

Me: Alright, you're Sustaining Steel, so your choices are kinda limited to Familiar or Combat Assessment

Them: Why can't I take Raise a Tome?

Me: Raise a Tome requires you to hold a book, and since it's a two-han...

Them: Can I just hit people with a really BIG book?

Me: Uh, well, actually yeah maybe you can?!

I couldn't remember the actual build to make this work until later this evening, but you could go Versatile Human -> Adopted Ancestry -> Shoony and then at level 3 pick up Ancestral Paragon -> Improvised Weaponry (Shoony).

And wallah, you can beat people down with a great big book. And a book that size might have a lot of relevant information on your enemies!

Now I imagine it works like a shield, so you probably can't attack while it's open, but I thought it was funny to imagine.

_______

It's cool that the game allows for crazy ideas like this, even in Playtesting :)

I know a lot of us are pushing for a better Class, but not all of us see the changes in the same way.

Of all the portions of the Magus you want to see changed, what are your "top 3" must fix items. I expect most people will have Striking Spell in their top 3, but curious where.

What do you think is the "must change" portions of the Class? Even if you don't want specific mechanics changed, you can express a feeling or overall shift you'd like to see.

Just thought it might be interesting to see what people have prioritize when they imagine the final version of the Class.

My 3 would be:

1. More even 50/50 of the Martial/Magic power distribution

2. More access to Spells

3. Striking Spell to lose critical mechanic and gain consistency mechanic

Hey All,

Not sure if this has been punted around before, but I got to thinking about something.

In PF1, the Magus got Spellcombat, which was an exceptional ability that combined a strike and a spell.

One thing about that ability that I personally loved was this:

You can cast or strike in either order

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Now, one of the things that I was hoping to see in the Magus is a nice "ebb and flow" of casting and striking, and there is a lot of that in the game.

But Striking Spell, which is sort of the stand-in for Spellstrike + Spell Combat, has to be Cast Spell into Weapon -> Strike -> Deliver Spell

And while there is discussion about the value of Striking Spell, I think the concept of the ability of course works, but maybe it's lacking in consistency and landing abilities.

So I got to thinking, what if there was a reverse option that changed things up.

That is to say: "What if you cast the spell first, and then if the spell lands, you get a Strike in response?"

AKA Something to this effect

STRIKING SPELL
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CONCENTRATE| MAGUS | METAMAGIC
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Frequency once per round
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You drastically alter a spell to combine it with a martial attack. If the next action you use is to Cast a Spell that can target one creature or object, you must choose whether to Cast a Spell normally or place its magic into one melee weapon you're wielding or into your body to use with an unarmed attack.

If you choose to Cast a Spell normally and the target of your spell fails or critically fails its save, or you critically succeed or succeed on the Spell Attack Roll you gain a free melee Strike as part of the casting but you do not increase your multiple attack penalty until after your Strike.

If you choose to place the spell in a receptacle, the next melee Strike using the receptacle for the spell, the spell is discharged, affecting only the target you hit.

The spell still requires its normal spell attack roll or saving
throw, but you don’t increase your multiple attack penalty until after attempting both the discharging Strike and the spell attack roll. If your Strike was at least a Success you may treat the Spell Attack Roll of the spell Cast as a Success. If the spell required a Save, increase the DC by 1.

If you don’t expend the stored spell, you lose the spell at the end of your next turn.The same thing happens if you take the Striking Spell action again or if the weapon is used for a non-melee Strike (such as a thrown weapon Strike). A spell stored with Striking Spell can’t be discharged by anyone but the caster.

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The former is now something that opens up their action economy. Need to move this turn? Better cast first and go for the free strike. Already toe to toe? Strike with weapon spell!

Thoughts? Just throwing and seeing what sticks :)

I brought this up in another thread, but wanted to make a separate one because I see a lot of problems that are systemic with the spell progression:

1. Staffs debacle

2. Summoners forget spells they previously knew

3. Summoners can't Summon at every level

4. Magus doesn't have room for utility spells without getting Martial Caster

5. Magus will struggle with longer adventuring days, and non-Eidolon focused Summoners would as well

________________________________________________

Now, I actually like the casting progression to some degree. It's a really smart way to keep them relevant in combats of their level without making them go full Focus casters or strictly Martial.

You can't change the early Magus/Summoner progressions very much at all, because as it stands, they have a really formidable first few levels when it comes to spell capacity considering they are both getting the standard Martial progression (albeit Magus doesn't get critical spec effects).

What is "Wave" Spell Progression?

Wave spell progression is modeled like the below

Clean Version

In summary, the basic concept is as you level, you retain 1 spell slot of each level as you pass it, you always have 2 spell slots of your 2nd highest spell slot, and you have 1 spell slot of your highest level spell on odd levels, and 2 on the even levels.

Notable Changes From the Original

1. For starters, you have more lower level spells, but the first 4 levels of each Class is basically exactly the same.

2. On every odd level past 4 (5,7,9,etc.) you have one less of your highest level spell. This was the trade off I felt was worth it to grant the remaining spells (since higher level spells are considered more powerful and are the main damage for the Magus).

__________________________________________

Problems I think it Solves

1. You can have utility Spells on a Magus - Now you don't have to take Martial Caster, you don't have to hold Truestrike in your highest slots, and most importantly you still retain abilities that you have built over your character career. If you want your "defensive staple" to be Mirror Image, that's now an option for you. If you wanted Enlarge, that's now an option for you. Fly doesn't cost you a precious slot or force you into a Class Feat for a single spell.

2. It is actually a slight but direct power decrease while adding a lot of versatility in return - Lower level slots operate most efficiently with buffs, utility, and other generally non-offensive options. For a Magus, these slots can function as potential slight boosts to backup damage (though almost always they will be behind Cantrips) with potentially a novel debuff unique to that spell. Save spells will be quite weak in these slots, and damage spells will be behind cantrips in most cases. This could open up Critical Specializations to come back into the power budget (or some other comparable concession). It may not require any power changes, it's close to a wash for me personally.

3. Summoner doesn't have to forget their spells anymore - This may require the removal of free heightening (which only applied to their 2nd lowest level slots, so not a huge hit). Overall, a Summoner losing spells in the repertoire is a bit awkward, even more so than the situation with the Magus (who at least remembers them, but has trouble preparing them).

4. You can customize the style of Magus/Summoner you want to be further without overpowering the class itself - Spells add a lot of flavor to casters, and the more spells you have, the more flavorful combinations of "concept" you can make. A Sustaining Steel Magus with two hands that uses Enlarge and his slots to be a formidable opponent feels way different than a speedy Slide Magus with Blur or a Shooting Star with Mirror Image.

5. They no longer run out of gas - Now both classes have some versatility for the adventuring day and Magus gets a nice little boon by having "back up" slots the longer he goes (he runs out of gas slower, not immediately after using his top slots).

6. Staves work - They might work anyway, but this guarantees it.

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What do you think?

Open to thoughts on this, but I would feel far less starved for spells past about level 6. I am looking to get a group to try to playtest the current Magus as is, but I fear I won't be able to test at the levels where this "wave" format would come online to see if it's necessary.

One of the Playtest experiences recently posted by manbearscientist was a level 7 Magus, and interestingly, they had taken the Wizard MCD to gain spells, and even then they struggled. It would be nice if Magus didn't have such paralyzing choices in their spell slots to force their hand into choosing Feats that help make up for their loss.

Is it needed? Does this work for you? Why or Why not?

I posted this in the Arcanist thread, but figured I'd see what others thought here in the appropriate one.

This is just the basics of the Class, as I figure progression heavily depends on what you use as a foundation.

So we have initial Class Paths, basic concepts for Exploits and a new mechanic I've dubbed "Overcharge", and the effects of these as a Spontaneous Caster of the Arcane Spell list.

I tried to borrow what I could from the old Arcanist to make something new (Elemental Master, Flame Control, Blood Arcanist, Bladebound, Dimensional Slide, Metamagic Mixing, etc.) and sprinkled in some others I thought really worked well with this over existing locations (Wild Mage and Tattooist).

Eager to hear opinions!

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Arcanist
Spontaneous Caster (standard prog)
Simple Weapons, Unarmored, 6HP, Will Expert, Fortitude Expert, Reflex Trained

Overcharge Arcanists gain power by extending magic through their bodies via their Magical Discipline. Whenever an enemy critically fails a save against one of your Arcanist spells or you critically succeeded a spell attack roll with your Arcanist spells, you gain Overcharge. If the spell cast would affect multiple targets, the Arcanist must choose one of the targets of the spell for the purposes of triggering Overcharge.

While you have Overcharge, you gain the passive benefits associated with your Magical Discipline and a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. You also gain access to special spells called Exploits, which can only be used while you have Overcharge and cause you to lose your Overcharge.

Arcanist Exploits are special spells that can only be cast while the Arcanist has Overcharge. These exploits are automatically heightened to the highest level spell an Arcanist can cast.
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Disciplines

Sanguinist - You wield the properties of blood, which contains innate magical power. Whenever you cast a spell on a target that is bleeding or a spell that has the Death trait and the target fails the save or you succeeded at the spell attack roll, you gain Overcharge. In addition, while you have Overcharge you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Fortitude saves.

You gain the Arcanist Exploit Exsanguinate.

Elemancer - You derive your magical power from the elements. Whenever you cast a spell with the Fire, Earth, Air, or Water traits and the target fails the save or you succeeded at the spell attack roll, you gain Overcharge. In addition, while you have Overcharge you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Reflex saves.

You gain the Arcanist Exploit Bend Elements

Tattooist - You wield ancient symbols to propogate your magical powers. Select two spell traits that are school traits, you tattoo symbols of these traits onto your body. Once you have made this selection, it cannot be changed and the tattoos cannot be removed by any means.

Whenever you cast a spell with the chosen traits and the target fails the save or you succeeded at the spell attack roll, you gain Overcharge. In addition, while you have Overcharge you gain a number temporary hitpoints equal twice the highest level Arcanist spell you can cast.

You gain the Arcanist Exploit Magicmixing

Bladebound - You are bound to a weapon that grants you magical powers. This weapon is magical, but does not contain any innate Potency or Runes. You are trained in Martial Weapons and whenever your proficiency with Simple Weapons increases, you also gain that proficiency with Martial Weapons.

Whenever you succeed at a strike or cast a spell with the Transmutation School trait and the target fails the save or you succeeded at the spell attack roll, you gain Overcharge. In addition, while you have Overcharge your Bladebound weapon gains the benefits of a +1 potency rune.

You gain the Arcanist Exploit Dimensional Slide.

Wild Mage - You derive your power from the innate chaos of the world. Your proficiency bonus to Saves and Spell Attack rolls receives a -2 Status penalty which cannot be overcome. When you cast a spell, roll 1d4 and add the result to your Proficiency for that spell instance.

Whenever you cast a spell and the target fails the save or you succeed at the spell attack roll, you gain Overcharge. In addition, while you have Overcharge you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Will Saves.

You gain the Arcanist Exploit Wild Surge
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Exploits

Exsanguinate - "As a single action, you can morph the blood in yourself and enemies to your whims. You deal 1 bleed damage to the target that triggered Overcharge, if that target was already bleeding, increase the amount by 1. In addition, you gain fast healing equal to the same amount dealt by this exploit until the target stops bleeding.

Heightened +1: +1 Bleed Damage and Fast Healing"

Bend Elements - (range 5ft) "If your last action was to cast a spell with an elemental trait that dealt damage, you may spend an additional action to move the effects of that spell to another target within range of the target that triggered Overcharge. This new target takes half damage after all effects of the original spell are applied.

Heightened +1: +5ft range
"

Magicmixing - "As a single action, you can trigger the effects of your other tattoo, blending the magic together. The target who triggered overcharge takes damage equal to 1d6 and you also take 1 damage as the tattoo magic burns your skin. The damage type is based on the school of your second tattoo:

Abjuration force damage
Conjuration or Transmutation force damage
Divination, Enchantment, or Illusion mental damage
Evocation a type the spell dealt, or force damage if the spell didn't deal damage
Necromancy negative damage

Heightened +1: The damage to your opponent increases by 1d6 and the damage to you increases by 1"

Dimensional Slide - "As a single action, you can teleport 10ft to a location you can plainly see that is not occupied. If you end your square next to an enemy, you may make a Strike as part of this movement.

Heightened +1: The distance you can teleport increases by 5ft"

Wild Surge - "As a single action, if your next action is to cast a spell, you can forgo your Wild Magic roll and instead gain a +3 bonus to your Arcane Spell Proficiency.

Heightened 5th: The casting time is reduced to a Free action."

Hey everyone!

In a thread recently the conversation of Golarion Olympics got discussed, and I thought it might be fun to think of events that would be thematically appropriate given the context of Pathfinder 2E as a system.

I kind of imagined each "event" being supernatural in some regard, and more than likely, each one sponsored by a specific member of the primary Pantheon of Golarion's Inner Sea Region:

Abadar - ???

Asmodeus - ???

Calistria - Hide the Queen on steroids? Some kind of Feint trial?

Cayden Cailean - Drinking Contest

Desna - Falling with Style/High Jump/"Reach for the stars"

Erastil - Archery!

Gorum - Boulder Smashing competition

Gozreh - A swim across dangerous tides?

Iomedae - Climbing out of a pit with slicked sides to represent her climb out
of Cheliax (only actual one I think sorta works)

Irori - A task of to test both mental and physical perfection

Lamashtu - ???

Nethys - Casting trial? Where a simple tasks are given that must be accomplished with only the spells you have (more than one way to "beat" the trial).

Norgorber - A fierce game of hide and seek!

Pharasma - Some kind of trial based on how well you can "predict" outcomes or use predictions to win?

Rovagug - Banned for being uncool

Sarenrae - ???

Shelyn - Music/Art show!

Torag - Random weapon/armor forging contest?

Urgathoa - Poison drinking contest!

Zon-Kuthon - Wild Boar catching contest with the Boar labeled "Rovagug"

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I'm sure there are better or more appropriate versions for each deity, I'm actually a bit of a noob on Golarion lore in some regards.

What about you? What do you think would be fun at the "Golarion Olympics" deity based or otherwise? How would you structure rules for the challenges?

Maybe this has been answered before, but currently as written the Thief Racket Dex to Damage is immune to Enfeebled because Enfeebled specifies "Strength-based damage rolls" and Thief Dex to damage says "instead of Strength".

It is also immune to Clumsy, because Clumsy specifically states "checks and DCs" and damage rolls are not a check or a DC.

I would imagine that the Thief Racket is good enough as it is and this RAW immunity is probably not intended.

Has anyone dealt with this at the table and if so how did you handle it?

Hey everyone,

There was some discussion about Darkvision in the APG thread that got a lot of response and I didn't want to clutter the other thread so I agreed to make one here for those of us that were intrigued by the discussion.

Now to me personally, I hate Darkvision. It creates horrible problems for me as a GM in terms of mismatched agency.

I want to preface this by saying that I think Pathfinder 2E has done a lot to fix this where other editions haven't, so credit where it is due, but nonetheless here are my personal grievances:

1. Removes Player Agency - I love that Paizo made Perception an everyone skill. It was the best Skill in PF1 by a mile. It directly translates to agency. You can't act against what you can't see. What I hate about Darkvision, is that it takes this very AWESOME change and sort of invalidates it. By extension, this removes player agency for those that can't see in the dark but in a way that doesn't apply to everyone.

2. Darkvision is too good, but doesn't feel good - Those that have Darkvision should always want to be in the dark, because it's an inherent advantage over anything that cannot see in the dark. However, the number of times I have seen a party where everyone actually has Darkvision I can count on one hand.

3. Everything has it - I hate that everything has Darkvision. Why does a Gnoll have it but a Hyena doesn't? Dwarves "see in the dark" based on Lore, but how well? Why do creatures that live above the earth so often see in the dark so well? The number of creatures on our planet that can see perfectly in the dark with their actual eyes is extremely low (most of them have other forms of perception).

4. Light should be a common ally of the player - I said this in the other thread and it seemed to strike a chord: "The Light should be an ally of the player and the Dark should be an ally of the GM". I really believe that statement, metaphorically and intrinsically to TTRPG games. Dark is associated with secrets and the unknown, and the GM controls that. Light is associated with knowledge and revealing the truth, and the PCs do that.

5. Darkvision is a club - It's inherently a divisive mechanic because it is a binary one. You either see, or you don't see. That means even those with Low Light vision need light and those like humans definitely need it. It feels like a club within parties that ultimately results in "punish the human with blindness" or "the dwarf doesn't get to use his ability".

6. Vision Spells Deserve to be HUGE buffs - Darkvision and potions from your friendly Alchemist should be huge deals but instead they're more like band-aids for certain party members. That makes the player feel like a burden, since it's more of "patching a hole" than "this makes everyone better".

7. Vision isn't fun - Kinda wishful, but I wish vision was fun. There are games that do this really well, and I wish TTRPGs (who intrinsically deal with similar themes) had a "fun" mechanic to Light. Instead it always just feels like something I forget to keep track of or is bookkeeping work.

So that's my piece.

How do you all feel? Do you like it? Do you hate it? Do you like parts?

What would you change? What have you changed? What has your group done because of Darkvision?

Hey all, I want to draw attention to something that I heard on the stream:

That a lot of us thought the Alchemical Sciences Methodology was "powerful" but not picked very often by a lot of the playtest feedback givers.

Which got me thinking on the "why", which to be honest, is rather simple. The concept didn't enhance the ability for an Investigator to being an Investigator. I would also say that the Forensics methodology fits this mold a little, but gains the Forensic Acumen Skill Feat which helps fill that concept a lot.

The big reason for that I think is that Methodology does not really interact with your Investigator Abilities directly (although it can be done tangentially).

Now, one of the big things I think the Alchemical Sciences should allow is the ability for an Investigator to ascertain "scene evidence" and analyze it for data. That's sort of one of their big things (Sherlock testing soot, Batman testing for gun powder residue, etc.). Either directly on scene if it's a rather easy deducation, or at a laboratory.

Alchemical Sciences makes having the Alchemical Crafting Skill Feat essential as a boiler plate feat for the concept, and because of that and Quick Tincture, I think the methodology is trying to "do too much" and thus the power budget can't expand to include any directly Investigator tied benefits.

The issue is Quick Tincture is quite strong, but not directly necessary for the Class to convey those concepts.

Personally, I would like to see an Alchemical Science Investigator taking out a vial and dropping in blood from the scene, soot from the scene, etc. into a vial and making a deduction from that (much the way the Forensic works) in order to gain standing in their case.

But having that ability along side the ability to spontaneously create items, seems like too much.

Controversial Argument Incoming:

I actually think they should remove Quick Tincture (free Alchemical items on the fly) as a default to the Methodology, and instead, move it to a Class Feat that requires Alchemical Crafting in order to grant this other ability of "alchemical investigation work".

This would allow them to expand the methodology to foster the Alchemical concept, without directly enabling it.

My reasoning is actually three fold:

• 1. This allows Alchemical Sciences to take a primary role in investigative work, and "at the lab" but without having the Investigator starting with on the fly alchemical items (they can still bring some from the lab of course).
• 2. This opens the Quick Tincture option to any alchemist that wants to invest in Alchemical Crafting as a Feat. The Methodology locks out other alchemists from using Alchemical items, which as we know, is something that a lot of investigators may dabble in (I wouldn't necessarily call batman Alchemical Sciences, but he definitely has a bit)
• 3. No other Racket/Methodology in the game strictly enables/disables a concept, only strongly encourages the concept itself (see Alchemist studies, Rogue Rackets, or the other two Investigator methods). Rogues can feint even if they are brutes, they can steal even if they are scoundrels, and Alchemist can throw bombs even if they are Mutagenists.

Thoughts?

I am the GM of two groups, and currently am running two of them both set in the same town of my homebrew world. There are multiple plotlines I have established, and funny enough they went totally different directions.

I created an Investigator at level 3 that was an NPC in this city, she is a Halfling that's got a background as a criminal and is a bit on the rugged side.

I found her dripping with flavor, and given she is investigating dock disappearances in the port town, she didn't engage in much fighting. She also didn't engage in much fighting by choice, I felt she would lose a lot of engagements unless she was forced into an exchange, so she kept to tactics of hiding and observing to better build her case.

Overall, I loved how much the Class added to her concept. A rogue would not have done the trick at all, and that means the class is 100% doing it's job in making my character Class feel distinct and awesome.

Perfect as is to me.

I loved playing Nadia. She felt amazing, and while I did avoid combat with her, I still felt able to contribute monumentally to the narrative and in her role in the campaign. Despite some of the gripes I have, because I stayed relatively low level (3) I didn't have to experience any of the issues I have with the higher level Feats or low Wisdom (since she was a halfling).

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Out of combat, basically close to perfect outside of the wonky ways of Take The Case gumming up at some points. Thematic, fitting, awesome.

In combat, feat wise and action wise feels like I should be doing literally anything else. I do not expect them to be power houses, but certainly able to do more than they can now.

In terms of thematics, freaking nailed it. In terms of niche in a party, completely freaking nailed it. And since those two things are the most hard to get right, I must say Bravo Paizo!

Out of all the Classes, I'd say they were the third from the top in terms of "close to complete" for me (behind Swashbuckler the dead leader, and the arguable close second being Oracle).

hey all, I recently had a discussion on this and I am curious how others read the feat:

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=272

"Carefully etching a sacred image into a physical object, you steel yourself for battle. You can spend 10 minutes emblazoning a symbol of your deity upon a weapon or shield. The symbol doesn’t fade until 1 year has passed, but if you Emblazon an Armament, any symbol you previously emblazoned and any symbol already emblazoned on that item instantly disappears. The item becomes a religious symbol of your deity and can be used as a divine focus while emblazoned, and it gains another benefit determined by the type of item. This benefit applies only to followers of the deity the symbol represents."

So my question is this:

Can you Emblazon Armament on multiple armaments?

The way I read it is that if you emblazon an armament, that armament itself cannot have more than one symbol, which is dictated by the "on that item" text.

However, another has read the text to say that you can only have one shield Emblazoned at any given time where the first clause dictates that anything you have emblazoned would be "removed" and you can only emblazon one shield.

Given the benefit is rather small for those that share the deity (damage +1 or +1 hardness) that it seems reasonably read either way (since the focus casting benefit only applies to the Cleric themselves).

Also, has there been clarification on the "casting while wielding a weapon during somatic components"? that's what lead to this discussion in the first place.

Happy gaming and thanks for any feedback!

I am an overly critical person. Forgive me:

When I heard Fighter was taking AoO's and they were going to make it truly it's own Class, I was skeptical, for various reasons. It's too generic, right? It can't have that many concepts surrounding it.

Then we got to see Class Paths during the playtest, and I thought, ah a Fighter with a Class Path is a cool way to divide up the different kinds of Fighters! With the new Skill Feats and diverse Class Feat styles in the mix, that gives a lot of concepts for Fighting teeth right out of the gate!

Now, Fighters didn't really get Class Paths (by intention it seems), but that doesn't mean you can't play a lot of characters without one. In fact, nothing says that the current "Fighter" couldn't just become a Class Path, I thought, and then introduce new ones that change AoO to another move and change Armor/Weapon proficiency intervals.

And then, I heard the dreaded news of the APG playtest:

Swashbuckler is getting its own Class.

So I went back to the Fighter to make sure I hadn't missed something. Dueling Parry, Dueling Riposte, Dex as a choice for Primary, Skill Feats for Kip Up, Sudden Charge for a double move and attack.

Can a Fighter afford Charisma? It seems they could, even if they couldn't dump strength. Do the weapons support it with finesse well enough? Deadly is a nice compensation and the free hand feats offer a lot of tactics.

I looked at PF1 Swashbuckler, and I see almost no unique mechanics that aren't present in some form in PF2 (the difference being Panache, which you pretty much only spend to do the Class Feats Fighters get or things like Kip Up which Skill Feats offer).

So I thought: Why? Why does the game need a whole Class dedicated to do a concept that a Fighter can already do?

By "creating" a new Class, all that's really occurred is a reduction of space for the Fighter to operate as a "Swashbuckler".

If the true point of the class was to encompass those that Fight, why is moving one of the clearly intended playstyles of the Fighter to a completely separate Class necessary? What did adding the Swashbuckler back to the game (which IMO was only created to circumvent these issues PF1 had with Fighter) actually add to the game?

I'll preamble some rebuttals I've heard:

"What if the Swashbuckler does something different from PF2? We don't know what it looks like yet."

Creating a Class with the name Swashbuckler has consequences.

For starters, new players will hear that and think "this must be how to play a Swashbuckler."

Secondly, it directly correlates confusion in the name if it's not meant to fill that same role that a Fighter can already do within his class. Example:

If there was a "Thief" class or a "Charlatan" class, that dampens the Rogues day. It doesn't matter that the Thief/Charlatan has an entirely different mantra, it inherently encroaches on the Rogues role because the Rogue is meant to be the Thief/Charlatan Class.

"We don't have a person with Panache yet, that's entirely unique!"

If you actually go back and look at PF1 Panache, you'd see it doesn't actually offer anything that doesn't exist in the game currently. Panache allows you to Kip, Parry, and other actions that already exist as all day Class Feats.

And Panache is pretty much the only iconic thing they get that isn't possible already.

And then, Panache/Grit/etc. are all not so far removed from each other that an Archetype that anyone could take wouldn't be able to scratch a lot of itches in one go.

"Why not just roll the Ranger/Champion into Fighter then with that attitude?"

Well, to some degree, I can see that argument. But I will say, that Ranger and Champion have been in DND for a long time. I'm not saying grandfathering in exceptions is a great idea, but that is some of it.

Another part is that those two have very clear flavors attached to them that are apart of the larger parts of the game: The Primal/Divine spell lists.

Now even though they don't have spells anymore, they still fit those themes and operate as the effective martial counterpart to the Caster:

Barbarian - Sorcerer
Fighter - Wizard
Ranger - Druid
Champion - Cleric

So in that sense, to me, it seems to work.

"It doesn't invalidate the Fighter to introduce Classes that Fight a specific way"

Except, it sort of does. The Fighter is finally able to replicate a lot of different styles of play all in one roof. This was apparently a huge design goal, and I think they did a good job. By adding new Classes that fulfill this role of "Swashbuckler" you've now just told every Fighter player "don't try to be a Swashbuckler as a Fighter", even if you want to argue that's not true, the sheer name is going to impact that.

If they leave the Fighter in tact, it will likely be the Rogue who suffers (A Rogue with no Sneak Attack, less skills, but better armor/weapon training). You've now told the Rogue that if he wants to wield a Rapier and be a Swashbuckler that he's "doing it wrong".

And lets say that maybe there is some tiny area that a Swashbuckler can live in that resides somewhere between their two niches.

Maybe.

But you know what you've done even if you find one?

You've limited the Fighter/Rogue from expanding into those spaces organically with Archetypes/Class Feats/Class Archetypes, which are one of the stronger parts of the systems for adding "flair" to a build.

Isn't a Swashbuckler "flair"? Is that really full class material? I know it's got a fond spot in some peoples hearts, but all I can think to say "fear not, the Swashbuckler you loved is alive and well!"

Now, I'm sure people disagree, but that's why I posted. What does everyone think about Swashbuckler?

What does everyone think about this type of thing in general? You could make the same argument for other Classes as well.

Maybe the better question is:

"When does it make sense to make a stand alone Class vs. Archetype vs. Class Feats?"

The great words of Admiral Ackbar come to mind when I think about certain Feats (particularly Skill Feats) in the current playtest.

Now, there were definitely Feat Traps in PF1 and really they go all the way back to 3.0/3.5.

In some way, with a system like this, there are always going to be some "trap" Feats, but minimizing those is something I feel is critical to this edition. The more solid choices there are, the more customization and diversity among the characters we can make.

Quality in this case will truly breed Quantity, as if more options are no longer traps, then those options widen your choices.

Now, on to the game:

List a Feat (or choice in general) that you believe to be a "Trap", explain why it's a trap, and then propose either a revised version or an approach that may develop greater results.

Here's mine:

Experienced Smuggler - This Skill Feat is extremely situational and the DCs against it are abysmally low. While they do scale, they scale on a weird interval (Expert is skipped entirely and the next increase is at Master to 15). This is actually worse than just taking Assurance, with the only upside being that you do get to attempt a roll. The last piece relative to Underworld Lore and practicing a trade doesn't have any numerical benefit and Smuggling isn't necessarily gated if you already have this Lore trained. It also only works on Small concealed items.

Proposed change: Grant the same increase levels as Assurance, but also with the roll, since this is a very specific activity you are trying to perform. Also increase the bulk of the item at Master and Legendary to allow something more difficult to conceal on your person. Allow the person to use the roll and "minimum" for Underworld Lore - Practice a Trade checks as well.

Thanks, and Happy gaming

I know a lot of people have discussed the problems with Ancestry especially how it feels sparse, and once again another definition of "Feats" which can be a bit daunting.

One of the commonly proposed solutions is to simply add an additional Feat at first level for Ancestry, which would definitely curve the "feel" of an Ancestry up, however, I think there may be a better solution:

Divide Ancestry Feats into three categories, and drop them down to something "less" than a traditional feat.

Culture - Culture based feats, things that your Ancestry would have based on their upbringing. Weapon Familiarity, Ancestral Hatred, Demon Skirmisher, etc. fall under this category

Heritage (Physical) - Literal physical representations of Ancestry, these are physical attributes that you manifest as part of your Ancestry. Keen Hearing, Nimble, Ancient's Blood, Discerning Smell, etc. fall under this category

Aptitude - This covers things your Ancestry excels at, but aren't necessarily culturally related or physical manifestations. First World Magic, Rough Rider, Very Sneaky, Clever Improviser, etc. fall under this category.

Then at Ancestry selection, you pick one of each or potentially a combination based on Ancestry (i.e. Humans might just get 2 Innates and 1 Culture)

Lastly, a slight re-balancing would need to occur where each category is balanced against each other respectively instead of against ALL Ancestry feats.

This gives a stronger background to the character as you can't just select the strongest category of Feats multiple times (unless of course that Ancestry allows it) but gives your Ancestry a feeling of "depth".

Final Thought - A more restrictive approach to the above could be pre-defining the selections into groups of 3. I felt this was a little too close to how Ancestry (races) used to work in PF1, but it could be employed as an option.

In a less restrictive way, you could advise "sub-types" of Ancestries through groupings, i.e.:

If you are playing a Wood Elf, the suggested kit could be a predefined group to ease players that want to play a specific type of Elf but don't want to bother reading through every selection to build that elf. Would be extremely useful for newer players and easy to spin up new suggested kits based on homebrews or new areas introduced to Golarion.

I realize this might not be revolutionary, but I thought it was worth discussing.

Happy Gaming :)

I think one of the solutions to potentially making those with higher level proficiency feeling more meaningful compared to those without requiring them to create more Skill Feats could be to add more "Only" options that extend outside the "Trained Only".

I.E. Expert Only could provide a series of abilities that are only accessible to those that have achieved that proficiency, and cannot even realistically be attempted by those without it.

Some would argue that Skill Feats are supposed to fill this niche, which I would agree is the intended purpose, but to me that doesn't provide the satisfaction of achieving a new proficiency and suffers from choice limitation and is dependent on GM's presenting those opportunities regularly enough that they seem like meaningful choices.

Proposal: Move some of the Skill Feats that currently exist to automatic options for Skills for that respective tier (I.E. Expert/Master/Legendary Only actions) where those show progression in ability (Swift Sneak for instance could be one of these, where it simply becomes available to anyone who gains that level of proficiency)

But what about Skill Feats?

Skill Feats could then take on new aspects that are powerful, but perhaps limited. Some could remain as they are (Fascinating Performance could remain largely the same) and others could be added:

I.E.

Perfect Eclipse
Prerequisites: Master in Stealth
Cost: 1 Reaction
Description: On any turn in which you started with cover to an opponent, you can treat yourself as keeping cover until the start of your next turn for that opponent.

Now I wrote the above off the cuff, but it semi-fills the types of niche scenarios that I am talking about.

I think a lot of the issues with level bonus and proficiency feeling "empty" kind of live very close to the way Skills operate. AC/To Hit/etc. seem to be relatively tailored to a reasonable point, but it seems like even Paizo felt that Skills would need a slightly different treatment (which is where Skill Feats and Trained Only I imagine were created to compensate). I think isolating Skills from the Level Bonus discussion and what exactly can be done to resolve them specifically would be a better focus perhaps.

Happy gaming!

I'm sure this might have been discussed or suggested at some point, but I wanted to bring up the ramifications of changing proficiency to be a function of level instead of a direct modifier.

This addresses a lot of concerns surrounding the perceived value of being Trained vs Untrained and the value of being Expert vs Master/Legendary

I.E. something like the below:

Untrained = 1/2 level
Trained = 3/4 level
Expert = level
Master = 1 1/4 level
Legendary = 1 1/2 level

Now I realize the math doesn't work out as pretty as a simple +/- but I feel that it puts a lot more gravity on the proficiency system tiers.

What would the ramifications and outcomes for an above system be?

At it's widest point a change in proficiency only causes a +5 swing in bonus (at 20th)

Comments/Questions/Concerns welcomed!

PS: I don't hate what currently is there, but I do feel that heightening my proficiency does not feel impactful at all and it does seem a bit weird that level 5 NPCs are effectively better than ANY level 1 PC at anything (even their specialties).

Hey all so I was wondering if we could get an FAQ or a general ruling on something related to the Warlock Mystic Bolts:

I'll list the description here and note the parts I find most important:

Mystic Bolts (Su)

A warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe. A melee mystic bolt requires the target to be within reach, and a ranged mystic bolt is a ranged attack with a range of 30 feet. A mystic bolt deals 1d6 points of damage plus 1 for every 4 vigilante levels the warlock has.

The warlock must choose one type of damage for her mystic bolt: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Attacking with a mystic bolt takes the place of one of the warlock’s normal attacks, and she can make a full attack using mystic bolts. The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting (with each hand creating one mystic bolt) and feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks (unless they’re excluded from that feat, such as with Power Attack). Weapon Focus (ray) doesn’t apply to mystic bolts, but a warlock can take Weapon Focus (mystic bolt) and apply it to both melee and ranged mystic bolts.

Creating a mystic bolt requires the hand to be free, but the bolt appears only briefly, so a warlock using mystic bolts has a free hand any time she isn’t attacking with a mystic bolt.

The warlock threatens with a mystic bolt, but only if she has a hand free. Because mystic bolts are impermanent, a spell that targets a single weapon (like magic weapon) can’t affect it, nor can a mystic bolt be made with magic weapon special abilities. Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts.

At 7th level and every 6 vigilante levels thereafter, the warlock chooses another damage type from the list above. Each time she creates a mystic bolt, she can have it use any one of the damage types she has selected.

This ability replaces vigilante specialization.

So basically the follow up:

Can I deliver a held charge of a Touch Spell during a Mystic Bolt Melee delivery?

It specifically calls the ability a touch, says that it is treated as a light weapon for attacks (though it is not a weapon), and it specifically only does this to allow feats/abilities to work with Mystic Bolts.

Basically, I am trying to see if I need a 1 level dip in Magus for Spellcombat or if I have to spring for the second level for Spellstrike as well.

On top of the above:

Does the level 3 ability of the Warlock Piercing Bolts allow delivery of touch spells?

Piercing Bolts (Ex)

At 3rd level, the warlock can choose one mystic bolt per round to be a touch attack. This turns a melee mystic bolt into a melee touch attack or a ranged mystic bolt into a ranged touch attack. At 5th level, the warlock can treat all of her mystic bolts as touch attacks.

This ability replaces unshakable.

In this case it explicitly calls them Melee touch attacks, but mostly for the purposes of removing the need to go past armor.

I will argue that Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons are still subject to armor but are allowed for Touch Spell Deliveries:

Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

So there's the whole schtick.

Remember that it specifically isn't a weapon, it is only used that way for attacks the Warlock makes and feats and abilities (so that it works with TWF).

Overall I find Mystic Bolts to be pretty weak, but I am curious what the thoughts are on this subject.

I think everyone can agree that either way there should probably be some clarification, given the very specifically different reading of the ability from standard abilities that replicate it's behavior (for instance like the MindBlades weapon creation).

Thank you in advance!

So here is the shimmy:

After one thread erupted in the Gunslinger discussion about what people expected from the Ultimate Combat, it was said that comments on it should be placed in the products section so I am continuing that.

Here is what came up:

-- Spells in Ultimate Combat

-- Skills needing bump

-- Casters getting combat viability while Non-casters stay in the non-magical or special ability zone

Professor Cirno hit the nail right on the head for me basically when he said the following:

Quote:

Right, because clerics and druids aren't expected to get in the thick of battle. It's not like they have d8 hit dice or an average BAB or medium armor or anything like that.

<-- SKR

And they already have an enormous number of tools to do that.

Clerics can easily grab heavy armor with a single feat. They can boost their BAB in any number of ways already.

Druids have the full wildshape option going for them.

Even wizards have plenty of tools. The entire transmutation school gives them a plethora of options on how to mix it up in a fight. Failing that, they can stick to conjuration and literally pop fighters out of thin air.

In fact, I'll ask you in turn: Are they expected to get into the thick of battle right next to fighters? Because if they are, then what's the purpose of a fighter?

Quote:

How many "really good at combat" wizard builds are there? How many of them make you at least as good as a fighter or barbarian?

<-- SKR

There should be zero.

Do you know what the answer should to "I want to make a character that's good at combat maneuvers?"

"Make a fighter."

If wizards or clerics or druids are as good at fighting as fighters are, then what's the purpose of the fighter? To be a cleric that can't cast spells?

Quote:

But it's good that you assume that "more spells" automatically means "it's all about wizards and not for the other classes that are actually expected to get a sword to the face now and then." Because what this thread needs is more panic and exaggeration.

<--SKR

Like I said, if I was wrong, then mea culpa. It's my mistake! I maintain that the distinction extends to clerics/oracles and druids, however.

By all means give us new paladin and ranger spells. I love those! And a few more spells for bards to mix it up in combat wouldn't be bad either!

But wizards and sorcerers, clerics and oracles, and druids? They already have enough toys. We can give the other classes toys, now.

So I ask this:

What do you expect from the Ultimate Combat? What did you hope or expect to see?

(PS keep the ninja, samurai, and gunslinger stuff out of here there are other forums for that)