Drifter 2 - Electric Boogaloo


Homebrew and House Rules

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Hey all,

Cozzymandias did a bang-up job the first time, but there were some issues with the "treadmill" feel of the Drifter and Grit.

This pass was an attempt to right some of the issues I personally saw with the Grit system. If you loved Cozzymandias' version or want to reference it (I didn't completely reinvent the wheel), please visit that here. I am also using the same Firearm table as listed in the back of Cozzymandias' version.

I went ahead and reworked the initial package of the Drifter, even adding a new Class Path called "Pacifist" which I think is iconic considering notable Drifter's like Vash the Stampede and Kenshin Himura who were pacifists.

I do plan to go back and rework most of the Class Feats to align with this new structure, but figured I'd share what I have so far (the plan is to convert most of the old Class Feats as is).

Mostly looking for feedback on this initial "foundation" that's being set, since getting those right first are IMO important for setting the tone of what Class Feats can and should look like.

Here's what I got

Happy Gaming everyone!


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Hell yeah! Doing good work.

Small things:
Great Fortitude and Eagle Eyes doesn't have a space
Every class feature from Drifter Weapon Expertise onward doesn't say the level you get it at

Pacifist absolutely rules.

Will you be making your own firearm rules?


Grankless wrote:

Hell yeah! Doing good work.

Small things:
Great Fortitude and Eagle Eyes doesn't have a space
Every class feature from Drifter Weapon Expertise onward doesn't say the level you get it at

Pacifist absolutely rules.

Will you be making your own firearm rules?

The plan is to do the full package but the firearms themselves last, but they will be a bit close to what you see, with the exception of potentially how ammunition is handled. In general, I don’t want to make them too complicated and thus inaccessible to others.

Thanks for the formatting help, still working my way through scribe and copy pasta isn’t perfect.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

First off, I want to echo that Pacifist is awesome. I want to play that character like anything.

Going to run through the proficiencies real quick, since that's what I've been poking at with my own homebrew.

Eagle Eyes should be no earlier than level 7 (and remain at 7th or 9th if you're taking it to legendary). Unshakable is fine at 7th as well, but if you want to spread those out 9th isn't unheard of for a first master save. It depends on if you're taking a save to legendary or not. If so, then 7th is your best bet.

Honed technique and great fortitude are perfect.

I assume Drifter Weapon Expertise is at 5, correct?

8hp is an interesting choice. It might work given steely demeanor though.

You should also list that you gain an additional trained skill according to your Tack.

I get Cozzy's idea behind giving the extra class feature instead of a class feat at level 1, but I think it would be easier on balance if Lightning Draw moved to 3rd and you got back that class feat. I know it is so you start combat with a Grit in the chamber, so to speak, but grit is easy enough to get by the looks of it. You may even just make it a level 2 class feat.

Overall, I'm trying to figure out how the grit cycle will go. I know I was the one that suggested tying it to reactions, but I'm starting to doubt. Given the defensive bonus you tie to Grit, it would make more sense to spend grit as your first action and make sure to get it back on or by your third so that you have it up the entire time everyone else is acting, unless you needed to discharge it for Return the Favor.

But you'd actually immediately regain Grit once you used Return the favor, as long as the hit wasn't a crit, wouldn't you?

I'm afraid I'm too sleepy to pick it apart properly. Good work all around though.

One further suggestion: a feat that allows you to use Dex for Athletics checks you make through a finesse weapon. I'm not sure if one already exists, but if not the Pacifist tack could use it.


AnimatedPaper wrote:

First off, I want to echo that Pacifist is awesome. I want to play that character like anything.

Glad I'm in the right zone for that path. I think it was logical to try to include something like that to the Drifter, so I just went ahead with it (also been doing a rewatch of Trigun lately).

Quote:
Eagle Eyes should be no earlier than level 7 (and remain at 7th or 9th if you're taking it to legendary). Unshakable is fine at 7th as well, but if you want to spread those out 9th isn't unheard of for a first master save. It depends on if you're taking a save to legendary or not. If so, then 7th is your best bet.

I agree.

Quote:
I assume Drifter Weapon Expertise is at 5, correct?

Yes.

Quote:
8hp is an interesting choice. It might work given steely demeanor though.

That was my thinking. Since a Drifter wants to be subject to attacks, and put themselves in harms way to gain Grit, the idea was that if they take 2 Strikes a Combat at level 1 with Grit, they've already made up the difference in HP.

I'm not sold on it, there defenses might be low enough as is, but if I did bump them back to 10 HP, I would probably remove the "double resistance" to the Strike that Return the Favor applies to.

Quote:
You should also list that you gain an additional trained skill according to your Tack.

Agreed.

Quote:
I get Cozzy's idea behind giving the extra class feature instead of a class feat at level 1, but I think it would be easier on balance if Lightning Draw moved to 3rd and you got back that class feat. I know it is so you start combat with a Grit in the chamber, so to speak, but grit is easy enough to get by the looks of it. You may even just make it a level 2 class feat.

I don't disagree, and since I dropped any reliance of the Tack's on Lightning Draw it's certainly on the table. I was already toying with giving back the level 1 Feat since I dropped the individual path actions.

Quote:

Overall, I'm trying to figure out how the grit cycle will go. I know I was the one that suggested tying it to reactions, but I'm starting to doubt. Given the defensive bonus you tie to Grit, it would make more sense to spend grit as your first action and make sure to get it back on or by your third so that you have it up the entire time everyone else is acting, unless you needed to discharge it for Return the Favor.

But you'd actually immediately regain Grit once you used Return the favor, as long as the hit wasn't a crit, wouldn't you?

I'm afraid I'm too sleepy to pick it apart properly. Good work all around though.

So just to clarify, you do not gain Grit if you land a successful Strike necessarily, only default if you are the target of a Attack roll and the result of that Attack is a success. At first, I was going to make it damaged by the attack, but I felt like maneuvers and other attacks made sense too.

I am not married to the above "default". It's the best thing I came up with to incentivize putting themselves in the fray.

The Class Paths open it up a bit more, but because all of the Class Paths are contingent on being successful with the Strike, the "easiest" way a Drifter actually gets Grit back is to get attacked.

Gunslinger needs to land a Strike and perform a Reload in the same turn.

Ronin needs to land a Melee Strike and perform a Step/Stride in the same turn (It did not read melee before, I have updated).

Cutthroat needs to make a successful Strike against a Flat-footed.

Pacifist basically needs to land a manuevery of some kind or make an attack for non-lethal damage.

So Pacifist is the only one that can actually use Return the Favor to gain Grit.

The other example of gaining Grit easier is Ronin gets Grit as long as they moved on the previous turn and use Return the Favor and land the Strike once they get Honed Technique. That may be a bit good, as basically the cycle goes:

Move-> Attack (Success gains grit) -> 3rd action

Gets attacked, can use Return the Favor, if they land Strike (since they moved in the previous round) they effectively "refund" their Grit.

This allows the Ronin to function in melee a little easier I think, where as say Gunslinger isn't taking that many hits at range or Cutthroat gains it simply by attack flat-footed targets (the easiest Grit access IMO).

The Gunslinger regaining Grit if they reload on the following turn was meant to allow Feats like "Fan the Hammer" a little more viability, since dropping your Grit between turns is a big issue.

You want Grit between turns since it is defensive in nature and allows you to both avoid damage and use your primary Reaction to being attacked, so if you gain Grit on your turn and immediately spend it, then you've lost your main defensive feature.

The goal I then had in mind was to have Discharge actions that have to be spent during the turn (at least not all reactions, since we don't want to overly compete with Return the Favor) to create the choice of how to play the opponent:

"Do I do this thing and make it potentially easier to trigger Grit long term or deal more damage, or do I hold Grit so this creature doesn't wallop me too hard?"

That's at least the cycle as intended.

Quote:
One further suggestion: a feat that allows you to use Dex for Athletics checks you make through a finesse weapon. I'm not sure if one already exists, but if not the Pacifist tack could use it.

This is a good point. Sounds like a good option for a level 1 Class Feat, but it's tricky since MCD is a thing.

I think the incentive for a Pacifist would be to either keep a hand free to be able to make those Athletics Checks or use a Finesse weapon.

Not sure using it for maneuvers would be terribly unbalanced even for other classes though, but it would certainly be something the Swashbuckler might want if it did exist (so if Drifter gets it, I would hope it gets the Swashbuckler tag).

____________

Keep the feedback coming. I want this ironclad before I do too much work on the Feats aspect.

Dropping Lightning Draw into Feat territory isn't out of the question for me, but then I would like to see them get something else back at level 1. A Class Feat may be the thing to give back.

I have made updates to Return the Favor to make it clear you still apply double resistance to the Triggering attack before losing grit.

I updated the features to have levels and made the level changes Animated Paper Suggested.

I added the "melee strike" clause to Ronin, which was originally there.

Hope to tackle more soon, but it will likely be over increments and as I feel comfortable with the direction the design is going.

Basically the main "theme" I'm going for:

You generate your primary defenses by continuing to be successful offensively, and you spend your defenses in order to boost your offenses

Basically an ebb and flow. Some combats it may be better to just play defensive, others it may make sense to just throw your defenses to the wind and tear some people down.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Midnightoker wrote:
So just to clarify, you do not gain Grit if you land a successful Strike necessarily, only default if you are the target of a Attack roll and the result of that Attack is a success. At first, I was going to make it damaged by the attack, but I felt like maneuvers and other attacks made sense too.

Oh, I know. However, in an example attack when you have Grit up, you are targeted by an Attack, you spend the Grit to Return the Favor, the attack against you resolves, and, as you were the target of a successful (but not critically successful) attack and did not have grit up at the moment the attack resolved, presumably you regain that grit back that you just spent.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
So just to clarify, you do not gain Grit if you land a successful Strike necessarily, only default if you are the target of a Attack roll and the result of that Attack is a success. At first, I was going to make it damaged by the attack, but I felt like maneuvers and other attacks made sense too.
Oh, I know. However, in an example attack when you have Grit up, you are targeted by an Attack, you spend the Grit to Return the Favor, the attack against you resolves, and, as you were the target of a successful (but not critically successful) attack and did not have grit up at the moment the attack resolved, presumably you regain that grit back that you just spent.

That's a good point, since the trigger happens before the attack resolves, you would theoretically always want to Return the Favor because then you have the possibility to gain grit if the attack is successful.

That makes me feel like the "default" trigger probably needs to go, and in all honesty, I generally don't like abilities that trigger when you fail or your opponent succeeds.

Any ideas on how to fluctuate things? I'd like to leave the Paths as is, but I do want a "default" way to return Grit.

Perhaps dropping the default trigger and just letting Lightning Draw stand on its own as the "Default"? That would certainly make Grit a lot more contingent on using your paths acquisition (because you'd only get one "free" grit a combat).


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I imagine the Drifter archetype would resemble the Swashbuckler? "Pick a Tack, you can gain grit in all the same ways as that Tack..."

(I have a player who already wants to play a Pacifist so I'm trying to have foresight. :P albeit for a game starting in December.)


At first, I had toyed with the idea of "Someone takes a hostile action against you that you have not acted hostile towards" you gain grit, ala the Gnome Feat "Sympathetic Plea", but instead I backed off of it because I felt it was "too complicated" as a default ability.

I'm think that's still the case, but this was the evolution of that concept of "people generally pick fights with the Drifter, Drifter's have to be coaxed into fights" kinda theme.

But now the more that I think of it, I'm going to go back to my original idea, which is that Drifter's have grit in exploration mode (and they "automatically" get it back after 10 minutes out of combat).

Perhaps we're looking at the wrong binary system to inverse, would we be able to derive a better action cycle from a "Rage" like system?

Something where the longer a Drifter is in combat, they like "scale"?

Maybe we should talk about what themes the drifter offers that we could exemplify.

In general though, I think it's important that Drifter's have Grit at the start of most fights, because Drifter's are always prepared to Fight and generally respond to conflict quickly.

The question of how we encourage that is the question I think.

__________________

Grankless wrote:


I imagine the Drifter archetype would resemble the Swashbuckler? "Pick a Tack, you can gain grit in all the same ways as that Tack..."

(I have a player who already wants to play a Pacifist so I'm trying to have foresight. :P albeit for a game starting in December.)

Yes, but the Swashbuckler does have "Tumble Through" as the "default".

I like the idea of Grit having at least one ubiquitous method that influences how they might approach a fight.

Tumble Through inherently works for most Swashbuckler concepts. It's risky, provokes reactions, enhances positioning, sets up for flanks, etc.

My thoughts on getting attacked for the Drifter were "They benefit from being in the fray", so that's what lead me there.

I don't think it's a good system, but the intent I feel is there. The question is, what mechanic could emulate a similar Drifter concept that works with most styles of Drifter.

The mains ones I think of are pre-combat (initiative) or not wanting to fight at all (Empathetic Plea).

In the old thread, I proposed Take Cover, but I'd rather see that be a Feat (though it is kinda appropriate).

Now if you did do something like Take Cover, you could then add a little flavor to each path to incentivize the action maybe, i.e. (Gunslinger's may use Take Cover as part of their Reload action, Ronin can use Take Cover with their Weapon for partial cover, etc).

That was one thing in the default thread idk that everyone agreed on. What's the "Tumble Through" equivalent for the Drifter?


This looks neat, I'll read through this later. Initially; I can't really make sense of Lightning Draw. What do you mean by their modifier being greater than yours? In the case of an initiative tie, foes always take their turn before the PCs and their allies, modifiers do not determine ties.


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Henro wrote:
This looks neat, I'll read through this later. Initially; I can't really make sense of Lightning Draw. What do you mean by their modifier being greater than yours? In the case of an initiative tie, foes always take their turn before the PCs and their allies, modifiers do not determine ties.

Well technically, you still determine Allies that go before you first, but that's a good point.

More or less, I was just trying to give the Drifter the inherent advantage that if they choose an opponent's initiative over their own, they get to go before that actor in the round.

There might be a better way to codify that I am not seeing though.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the default way to gain grit might not be needed. The passive benefit of having it and also using it for Return the Favor is probably all the incentives Drifters need to initiate the cycle.

EDIT 2: Updated the wording on Lightning Draw to read:

You are always ready for a fight. Choose an enemy that you can see. Instead of rolling initiative, you instead go just before the selected enemy in initiative. You may draw a weapon as a free action at the start of your turn. If you make a Strike against the target of this ability before the end of your next turn, you gain grit.


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Lightning Draw seems like an After You-equivalent more than a Tumble Through-equivalent. It would make for a cool class-specific Quick Draw even if the Grit being granted becomes redundant and is removed.

Return the Favor is both very powerful (essentially a more frequently usable Attack of Opportunity mixed with the damage reduction of Champion's Reaction (notably Selfish Shield)) and seems like it would incentivize not targeting the Drifter in the first place. Other than Opportune Riposte, which is a side-course to Finishers, Barbarian's Vengeful Strike and Furious Vengeance are the closest I can think of, and they're generally less powerful as well as given at high levels. I like the idea, but it feels like it could potentially be a bit too strong/awkward to base a class around. It's also a bit funky to lose Grit's AC bonus just before an attack roll is resolved — guarantee you players will kick themselves if they Return the Favor only to take an attack they wouldn't have otherwise.

It looks a little strange to have a cumulative +2 bonus to Perception from two different bonus types when you have Grit. Just make it a +1, or +2 from one type. Steely Demeanor kind of feels like it should be where the +1 to AC from Grit lives.

Unless I'm missing something, the Honed Technique for Gunslinger is a bit sad, being the only one not to improve Return the Favor and being redundant with the base Tack (unless you shoot-reload-shoot-reload constantly and gain a way to spend Grit proactively — you alluded to Fan the Hammer, for one). The way for Ronin to generate Grit doesn't necessarily feel on-theme, meanwhile.

Given the variety of benefits Pacifist grants (especially compared to Cutthroat), there should probably be a penalty to using lethal damage, maybe even anathema.

Drifter Weapon Expertise kind of reads like it improves the skill proficiencies granted by the Tack.

I like the general idea and the rest. I'm not sure if the "playstyle" for each Tack is quite there yet, and I'm also not sure if "Tack" is a good term given that they're more flavors or backgrounds than anything else so far. Maybe something like "Road" or "Trail" or "Walk" given the class name, maybe not.

Since the design seems like bizarro-Swashbuckler so far, further studying how that class handles things seems like a decent way to go. It requires successful checks rather than just doing common actions, but its altered state is mobility and offense-focused, used for either burst damage or more consistently doing Their Thing and getting a passive damage/speed bonus. Grit is somewhat easier to gain access to, emphasizes defense and seeking out enemies, and by default can only be used for either passively higher defense or a defensive+offensive reaction.

I spent another hour writing on this site when I should really be doing other things. Time to go, seriously. Good luck!


AP, I agree in a lot of places. And I think return the favor probably needs a change even though I’ve made it front and center.

-

What if it worked like Retributive Strike and the trigger was an enemy attacks an ally within 20ft.

That then extends their protection to those around them, and if they choose to attack the Drifter, the Drifter gets Grit to protect themselves. Then you can build feats around holding grit and spending it, so how defensive and how offensive is up to player choice.

This incentivizes attacking the Drifter instead of his enemies, drawing attention to himself in much the same way as the Champion.

I’ll do another pass on this soon with probably a couple of hot takes, but thanks for the feedback!


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Alright, so I just made a fair amount of changes, re-uploaded a new PDF, and added all the 1st level Class Feats.

Major Structure Changes

- Drifter's Tack name was changed to Drifter's Path. It's a little on the nose, but I like Path and it accurately conveys what the respective Paths' represent (forward and backward story)

- Lightning Draw was removed as default and moved to a 1st level Class Feat

- Incredible Initiative given as a 1st level bonus general feat (aka the Shield Block for Drifter)

Grit

- You gain grit when you roll for initiative for the first time in an encounter.

- You no longer gain grit from attacks against you

- You lose grit if you fall unconscious

Return the Favor
- The trigger was changed from "you are the target of a Strike" to "An Ally within 20ft is the target of a Strike"

- If you succeed at the Strike, your ally gains your grit benefits (AC, Steely Demeanor) against the triggering attack

- Ronin can Stride up to half their speed before using the Strike from Return the Favor

- Cutthroat can use a Concealed Weapon for the Strike of Return the Favor

Drifter Level Abilities

- You now gain a Drifter Feat at level 1

- Added levels to things missing levels

Honed Technique

- Gunslinger now reads "If you land a successful Strike with the Return the Favor reaction, you may make a single Reload action."

- Ronin now reads "You can Stride your full speed instead of half your speed when you take the Return the Favor reaction. You may make the Strike from Return the Favor at any point during this movement."

New Feats

- Long Shot is a new feat that I created to allow different types of Gunslingers to work (particularly those that use Rifles), but also for Cutthroats that might use Crossbows/Bows

- Create Cover is a new feat that is meant to take the place of Flashing Parry (which was a stand in for Dueling Parry).

- Fluid Fighting was added, which allows Dexterity based Athletics checks as well as a little bonus for Pacifist

- Lightning Draw was moved here, and works effectively the same (basically a free draw and choose round order), you gain grit as if you had rolled initiative normally (as per grit's new rules)

- Modified Warrior Poet was modified from its original version, as the original benefit would have been poor for the Drifter now (since Drifter's have Incredible Initiative).

__________________________________

Goals and Objectives

The main goals I had with the above changes were mainly from the feedback I received on the cycle for Grit, which was too tightly cycled and did not incentivize the Drifter as an actor in a party (also made them undesirable to target in any circumstances).

1. Grit - The changes to grit were simple, the old cycle was too closed. Now, gaining grit is mostly through Drifter Path with the one exception being you gain grit whenever you roll initiative. I felt this was fitting so Drifter's start with "one in the chamber".

2. Return the Favor - This was moved to the main reaction as a means to defend others. This was two-fold, one Drifter's defending their allies is, I think, an extremely iconic thing for a Drifter to do. In addition, it opens up their choices to using Grit to protect their friends and also to get that juicy bonus attack. It now incentivizes close-quarter fighting (with the exception of Longshot for rifle users) and I think this works as a nice counterpart to Champion in the same way Swashbuckler and Fighter are seen as counterparts. Now, a Drifter has to choose to put themselves in harm's way (lose grit) to defend their allies, which is a pretty important choice to make when it is not your turn (and thus can be attacked).

3. Cleaning up the Cycle - The above changes now incentivize the Drifter to continue attacking not only to grant themselves better defenses but also to get their primary defense they provide for their allies.

______________________

I do plan to continue to work on this whether or not I get any continued feedback, and I feel a lot better about where I landed after this pass. I think I might give them back 10 hp per level, as I now feel given the changes it might be fine to allow that.

It will need further work for sure, but now I feel like it falls more in line with what you would expect in a Grit cycle and what a Drifter would/should be contributing within a team.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Good changes overall, well done.

I think Grankless is correct and the bonuses from Grit should just be all be made the same type, and I further think everything should be on Steely Demeanor. I would probably leave the Perception bonus alone and just add the +1 bonus to AC as a status bonus.

Something that I'd forgotten is that circumstance bonuses no longer stack, so the +1 circumstance bonus from lesser cover does not stack with the +1 circumstance bonus from Grit. I can see that the Create Cover feat does give you more if you use while gritty, so that might be alright.

Should Hardened gaze have the visual trait? Or be an aura like other gaze attacks (that can possibly be a higher level feat upgrade)?

Fluid Fighting probably doesn't need the circumstance bonus, the new ability bonus is probably enough, but I'd want to play with it before saying that for sure.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
I think Grankless is correct and the bonuses from Grit should just be all be made the same type, and I further think everything should be on Steely Demeanor. I would probably leave the Perception bonus alone and just add the +1 bonus to AC as a status bonus.

I was holding out on giving them a status bonus, but it may be fine. The Swashbuckler's Panache bonuses are circumstance bonuses, so I followed suit with the bonus type given the implications of granting status bonuses.

I do agree moving all the defensive characteristics can move to Steely Demeanor though, so I'll move that.

Quote:
Something that I'd forgotten is that circumstance bonuses no longer stack, so the +1 circumstance bonus from lesser cover does not stack with the +1 circumstance bonus from Grit. I can see that the Create Cover feat does give you more if you use while gritty, so that might be alright.

This was actually intentional. This was meant to substitute as the "raise a shield" equivalent of the Drifter (and thus the Circumstance bonus). I figured because your "shield" improves if you have grit, but it does not require a free hand, that it was about equal in power.

I then planned to roll out further feats that allow cool tricks with Cover that potentially have the "Discharge" trait, but I don't want to go that route if people think it needs to change.

Quote:
Should Hardened gaze have the visual trait? Or be an aura like other gaze attacks (that can possibly be a higher level feat upgrade)?

That makes sense. It probably also needs a range limit (30ft like Demoralize)

Quote:
Fluid Fighting probably doesn't need the circumstance bonus, the new ability bonus is probably enough, but I'd want to play with it before saying that for sure.

My thinking was the "Dex to Athletics" is almost a tax of a Feat, but originally I was going to leave Grapple off the list.

Considering this is the only way to apply Dex to a Grapple, it's probably a good idea to remove the little "ribbon" of no hostile actions taken against the enemy.

On further evaluating, I'd sooner like to drop the Grapple and keep the ribbon. Dexterity Grapples is a dicey move IMO.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Midnightoker wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Fluid Fighting probably doesn't need the circumstance bonus, the new ability bonus is probably enough, but I'd want to play with it before saying that for sure.

My thinking was the "Dex to Athletics" is almost a tax of a Feat, but originally I was going to leave Grapple off the list.

Considering this is the only way to apply Dex to a Grapple, it's probably a good idea to remove the little "ribbon" of no hostile actions taken against the enemy.

On further evaluating, I'd sooner like to drop the Grapple and keep the ribbon. Dexterity Grapples is a dicey move IMO.

I can see that.

I did find a feat that does some of the same thing: the Athletic Strategist investigator feat. Some restrictions, but also some bonuses.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Fluid Fighting probably doesn't need the circumstance bonus, the new ability bonus is probably enough, but I'd want to play with it before saying that for sure.

My thinking was the "Dex to Athletics" is almost a tax of a Feat, but originally I was going to leave Grapple off the list.

Considering this is the only way to apply Dex to a Grapple, it's probably a good idea to remove the little "ribbon" of no hostile actions taken against the enemy.

On further evaluating, I'd sooner like to drop the Grapple and keep the ribbon. Dexterity Grapples is a dicey move IMO.

I can see that.

I did find a feat that does some of the same thing: the Athletic Strategist investigator feat. Some restrictions, but also some bonuses.

Because it is compartmentalized to a specific action of Investigator and is level 2, it's dicey

That said, an Investigator does want to use DaS as often as possible generally, but it is confined to a single one per turn.

The biggest issue is that you can use Grapple to get out of Grapples, so for that reason, I am going to remove Grapple from the Fluid Maneuvers.

Being able to Shove with Dex is something that's not possible, and getting Trip and Disram generally requires a traited weapon to pull off.

It's just a notch above a tax for Dex based maneuvers, but in a DEX encouraged Class like this (though not entirely Dex focused) it goes without saying that "safe" is better than "sorry".

I will be removing the ribbon as well. I figure this Feat could probably go to Monk/Swashbuckler as well if it were to come into existence.

I'll upload another pass probably later today with more Feats.


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Alright, sorry for the delay!

I did another pass, where I cleaned up a few things, reformatted, and made some passes for clarity/syntax of rules.

General Changes

- Cutthroat changed to Outlaw because it's a better name (and it was the original name for Cozzy's path in version 2).

- 10 HP Class - I felt they deserved this. The resistance presence applies only to Physical damage, they do not get traditional defense mechanisms with lack of shields (though Grit helps) so I felt it was warranted as they stand now

- Return the Favor Trigger now reads "An ally is the target of a Strike and both are within 20 feet of you"

- Gunslinger Honed Technique now reads "If you land a successful Strike with the Return the Favor reaction, you may make a single Reload action." so they have a good return cycle when they use their most basic reaction like everyone else

- Pacifist Honed Technique now reads "If you succeed at an Athletics check with the Return the Favor reaction you deal additional nonlethal damage equal to the resistance value of Steely Demeanor. You may add the nonlethal trait to any melee weapon in which you are trained." so they can make do with whatever weapons they choose to invest in at this point in the game without worrying about gold/runes.

Drifter Feats

Fluid Maneuvers - removed the non-hostile ribbon and no longer allows Grapple (Trip, Disarm, or Shove)

Create Cover - changed to only grant Lesser Cover and when Grit increasing the circumstance bonus of the cover itself to prevent you from granting Cover bonus to allies (Plan to introduce a level 4 Class Feat called "Provide Cover" that lets you add your current cover bonus to allies)

Added Feats (up to level 2)

Antagonize - This feat goes without saying. Even the Pacifists are kinda antagonistic (I KNOW Vash) and it fits them well considering

Combat Grab - Was in Cozzy's original Drifter, made sense to move it over since this is good for them in general (and especially Outlaw)

Quick Draw - Duh.

Removed Feats from original

Mobility - A rather uninteresting Feat, and while I can see them getting something that enhances mobility (particularly for Ronin) this didn't feel important enough to include. The level 2 Feat space seemed crowded but maybe that can be played with.

New level 2 Discharge Feats

These Feats were in some parts conversions of the Path abilities from Cozzy with some slight changes and the additional one from the Pacifist

Dirty Trick - Discharge 2 action ability that extends the duration of flat-footed and frightened until the end of your next turn. Originally, this was "dazzled" instead of frightened, but given the access of Demoralize and Intimidate, I felt Frightened made more sense and Dread Striker was a planned add for potentially level 6 Class Feat

Fan the Hammer - Two action ability that allows up to 3 attacks against the same target as long as you are wielding a one handed firearm with a hand free. Applies MAP normally but combines damage. Considering the need to try to get Grit back, this leaves an action open to reload. Rifleman are kinda left out... hmmmm

Lasting Impact - The new Pacifist Discharge ability. A reaction which the trigger is "your last action included a successful Trip, Disarm, Shove, or Grapple" that allows you to add the nonlethal trait to Strikes made against the target of your last action and grants Steely Demeanor to nonlethal damage you deal to that target. When you gain Honed Technique, the damage from the feat doubles.

Whirling Blade - Make two melee strikes with the same weapon, if the second weapon isn't Agile it takes a -2. Allows a Step after each Strike (so potential Grit recharge).

____________

Sorry for the delay, expected to be able to do more work, but I'm still chugging along!


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Pass for 4th and 6th level Class Feats:

Drifter Feats 4th

The goal with this level was to actually provide options that just about every Drifter can make use of, with the exception of potentially Running Reload.

Already Printed Feats 4th

Dread Striker - Pretty solid feat in general, but particularly good for Outlaw, but also anyone with taking advantage of frightened can work well here.

Duelist's Challenge - In general, Drifter's are Duelist's, so it made sense to put this here.

Running Reload - Really opens up the movement of the Gunslinger and allows Fan the Hammer + Running Reload to remain mobile (good turn if you have Grit).

New Feats 4th (either written or converted)

Distracting Assault - reaction against an attack against the drifter that allows a Feint. If you have grit and the result of the Feint is at least a success, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to AC against the triggering attack. Requires Deception.

Lay of the Land - Discharge single action that allows you to ignore difficult terrain until the end of your next turn. Allows greater difficult terrain at level 14.

Walk Tall - Stance feat with the requirement "You do not use any action with the move trait besides a Step" where you do not lose grit for using Return the Favor unless your attack was a critical failure.

6th level Class Feats

Added some new things and moved in some old options. Feel good about this level, but want to add at least one more feat.

Already Printed

Agile Maneuvers - Fluid Manuevers higher level counter part. Felt appropriate for Pacifist.

Recycled/Revised

Reliable Ally - Divine Ally, but adjusted for the Drifter. Allows Weapon, Trinket, or Steed as choices.

Iaido Stance - Still a stance that allows free action draw, removes manipulate trait from interact actions with weapons. You deal extra weapon damage die on first Strike after a draw.

New Feats
Gritty Acumen - Choose a save, while you have grit you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to that save.

Provide Cover - When you use Return the Favor reaction, you grant your current cover bonus to your ally. If the attack misses, you gain grit.

_______________________________

I was pretty content with this pass. Open to toying with some of these.

Had trouble converting Blood Spray still, but I do want to see it make the move to this version of the Drifter (I just think as a level 2 Feat it's busted). Also want it to read less specific.

I might go back and add another 6th level feat, this was just as far as I got today and I wanted to do another update today.

Hope everyone's having a good weekend so far!

Happy Gaming!


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Sometimes I get this odd feeling that the community has done *too good* a job with a homebrew class. What are the odds Paizo goes "Oh hey, that looks good. Ship it!"?


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I do still feel strongly that a pool of up to 3 grit would serve as an even more solid foundation than the current Panache-style on or off. You'd get the same passive effect as long as you have any amount of grit, and using a grit ability would always use all of your grit, with a more powerful effect the more you used. Mostly since I think the "core mechanic" of the class ought to be more distinct from Panache, and I think it would create a sweet "do I use my grit now or do I save it up for later" situation, resisting the treadmill.

Still, that'd be a pretty different direction to go at this stage. Maybe it'd be worth experimenting with that myself, though creating an entire class is always such a huge undertaking.

I don't remember if I said it already, but pacifist is absolutely genius. I really hope that kind of character style eventually makes it into Pathfinder proper.


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In a way Henro, I’ve modeled some feats after that idea. The only one currently is Long Shot, but it effectively works as you say, a scaling turn value.

Now I’m open to exploring that with Class Feats more absolutely (even reworking some current feats to potentially do similar things), but I think a “scaling” benefit outside of feats might be a bit too feast or famine as a base play style.

All for letting some feats dip into the “juggernaut” power mechanic of building as you remain in combat, but not sure I’d mandate it.

Waterslethe, hopefully the enthusiasm behind the idea at least tells Paizo it’s something worth entertaining.

And of course there’s always just doing it so some tables have an option in the meantime (who knows when we’d get a ‘Drifter’).

If and when I finish this version, I’ll probably allow it in my home games and if others choose to use this or Cozzymandias version, that’s a win for the community either way.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I am absolutely loving this. Have you made any updates or changes since early November? One of my players is planning on running with this for a shorter campaign I'll be running.


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Midnight said in another thread that updates will be coming over the holidays!


Grankless wrote:
Midnight said in another thread that updates will be coming over the holidays!

Yep.

Not sure what your pace is Memyselfishness but I should beat an update before your group reaches six. I can definitely try for an earlier push if you needed the rules for play since I would love any Playtest data you or your player might share!


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Midnightoker wrote:

Not sure what your pace is Memyselfishness but I should beat an update before your group reaches six. I can definitely try for an earlier push if you needed the rules for play since I would love any Playtest data you or your player might share!

We're starting at level 1 so I doubt we'll beat you to level 6 before you finish anything.

As for playtest data, what info are you looking for? Obviously you want to know how it actually feels for the class to play but are there any specifics you're interested in knowing. She's planning on taking the Ronin path and might end up using a homebrewed weapon for my setting. Basically just a polearm with parry.

My current rules concern is the circumstance bonus for Grit. It doesn't work with weapons with the party trait. I'd argue that's a pretty big feature of the Ronin character in films, blocking with their sword. As of right now I'm going to ignore the fact that they shouldn't stack and let her have a bonus if she parries, but it's something to consider going forward with future revisions.


Memyselfishness wrote:

We're starting at level 1 so I doubt we'll beat you to level 6 before you finish anything.

Thanks I will keep that in mind.

Quote:
As for playtest data, what info are you looking for? Obviously you want to know how it actually feels for the class to play but are there any specifics you're interested in knowing. She's planning on taking the Ronin path and might end up using a homebrewed weapon for my setting. Basically just a polearm with parry.

I'm excited to see how the Ronin plays absolutely.

Here are some of the bigger things I'd love to get feedback on:

1. Does the Class and Class Path feel like it exemplifies the character at level 1?

2. How does the Grit cycle feel in particular?

3. When did you spend Grit and did expending Grit feel meaningful?

4. Did holding/having Grit also feel meaningful as a defense mechanism?

5. Were there ever moments where it was difficult to decide whether or not to spend Grit? If so what were those moments?

6. What did you feel like you should be able to do that you couldn't do? What did you feel like you shouldn't be able to do that you could?

7. When it comes to the themes you wanted to evoke from your character, did the Class enable/hinder your ability to evoke those themes?

I welcome any and all feedback though and I want to say thank you for Playtesting or any feedback you can give.

Quote:
My current rules concern is the circumstance bonus for Grit. It doesn't work with weapons with the party trait. I'd argue that's a pretty big feature of the Ronin character in films, blocking with their sword. As of right now I'm going to ignore the fact that they shouldn't stack and let her have a bonus if she parries, but it's something to consider going forward with future revisions.

That is an extremely good point about Parry, and if we're being honest, Parry is a very iconic ability of the Ronin.

Do you feel the use of Parry would feel better if a Class Feat at level was created? Perhaps one that restored Grit if you successfully dodged an attack after using the Parry action (and upping the bonus to +2 circumstance when you posesses Grit).

The Create Cover Class Feat could have a counterpart for the Ronin that simply alters the Parry action.

In general, I am second guessing Create Cover as a Feat as I think perhaps a Ronin specific Parry feet might be more favorable.

There's just too many variables for Cover and the concept probably needs to be incorporated in a different way (Dive for Cover ala Cozzymandias is likely to make a comeback).

I'll try to do a pass soon.


Alright did a quick pass for Parry and Cover changes:

Create Cover and Provide Cover are gone.

Three new Class Feats have been introduced, two directly replacing the previous Create Cover and Provide Cover were replaced with Class Feats that involve the Parry trait

level 1 - Two-handed Parry - You give two-handed weapons you wield the Parry trait. When you have grit, the circumstance bonus from taking the Parry action is +2 instead of +1

level 4 - Quick Cover - a new Discharge Class feat that allows you to take a Step and use the Take Cover action when you are the target of an attack or area of effect that targets reflex. You do not lose grit if you the attack misses or you get at least a success on the reflex save.

level 6 - Protecting Parry - When benefiting from Parry and using Return the Favor, ally now benefits from Parry bonus to AC and if the triggering attack misses, you gain grit.

Just wanted to get these updates up so your characters can have some support. Best wishes!


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

These are all great thank you! I'll make sure my player has that list for feedback handy when we play. Though, you still haven't addressed the concern of Grit and weapons that already have the Parry trait. Thank you so much!


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Do you have any idea yet what the Multiclass might look like, yet?


Memyselfishness wrote:
These are all great thank you! I'll make sure my player has that list for feedback handy when we play. Though, you still haven't addressed the concern of Grit and weapons that already have the Parry trait. Thank you so much!

Since weapons that typically have the Parry trait still benefit from additional bonus to AC, I had decided to leave it alone.

I could remove the requirement on that feat and simply leave the first set of text, but I mostly wanted to open the options up for Drifter's to make weapons that maybe don't have the Parry trait access to it.

The Naginata and Nodachi may not have the Parry trait by default, and perhaps Ronin are the ones to learn that.

It reads pretty powerful now if for instance you apply this to a Bastard Sword or even just a Great Axe (neither are excluded), so I'm leaning to just dropping the "adds the Parry trait" and just making it enhance the Parry action (though I will admit there aren't too many weapons that have the Parry trait). And then simply add the Nodachi and Naginata as Parry traited two-handed weapons.

I will think on the matter to see if I can come up with something, but more than likely the most I can do with that feat without unbalancing it too much is actually to nerf it by dropping the "adds the parry" trait and simply creating Parry weapons appropriate for the Ronin sub class.

Thanks again, hope to hear more from your group. I'll keep pushing.

Grankless wrote:
Do you have any idea yet what the Multiclass might look like, yet?

More than likely close to the Swashbuckler:

Drifter
Prerequisites Strength 14, Dexterity 14

Choose a drifter path. You gain the steely demeanor and grit class features, and you can gain grit in all the ways a drifter of your path can, but not from rolling initiative. You become trained in Intimidation or Survival. If you were already trained in both skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You also become trained in drifter class DC. You don't gain any other effects of your chosen path.

____________

My thinking on the above is grit is a pretty strong blanket defense, so you're essentially always holding it as an MCD (at least at the Dedication dip), so I had to strip away the "initiative" roll option so they don't start and then hold grit permanently (you at least have to succeed at something your path does).

Return the Favor would likely be a level 4 MCD Feat, Basic Grit, etc.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Midnightoker wrote:

Since weapons that typically have the Parry trait still benefit from additional bonus to AC, I had decided to leave it alone.

I'm not following. The Parry action provides a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. If you have Grit you already have a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. Is your intention to make the Parry all but useless to a Drifter unless they have this feat? This can also be applied to characters that are using shields, although that is certainly more reasonable since it doesn't fit the trope. I understand not wanting to make it too powerful, but as an example that isn't Ronin, an Outlaw would probably love using an Exquisite Sword Cane.

Either way, you seem to know what you're doing, just looking for clarification on intentions.


Memyselfishness wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:

Since weapons that typically have the Parry trait still benefit from additional bonus to AC, I had decided to leave it alone.

I'm not following. The Parry action provides a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. If you have Grit you already have a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. Is your intention to make the Parry all but useless to a Drifter unless they have this feat? This can also be applied to characters that are using shields, although that is certainly more reasonable since it doesn't fit the trope. I understand not wanting to make it too powerful, but as an example that isn't Ronin, an Outlaw would probably love using an Exquisite Sword Cane.

Either way, you seem to know what you're doing, just looking for clarification on intentions.

To clarify, what I am saying is that the bonus to AC when you take the Parry action and you already have Grit (which already grants a +1 circumstance bonus) increases your Parry bonus to +2 instead of +1. That bonus applies to anyone that uses the action, so it probably can't go any higher.

I do agree that this should be something that enhances Parry though and not something that grants Parry as a Trait to other weapons.

My point was that there is still reason to take the Feat even if the weapon already has the Parry trait, since taking the Parry action while not having Grit still provides a +1 circumstance bonus to AC (which you wouldn't have without grit) and then triggering grit in some way by your Class would then enhance that bonus to +2.

But you make a good case for Parry weapons and I think it might be overpowered as written since unintended 2-handed weapons could now benefit from Parry that shouldn't.

More than likely, I will be dropping the requirement and the granting of the Parry trait and then adding the text "If you are the subject of an attack while benefiting from Parry and the attack misses, you gain grit" so there is incentive to using Parry while not having grit in hopes to gain grit (and since melee Drifter's have it pretty rough vs. say Gunslingers, I think that probably works out okay).

I'm going to try to do a pass for the Weapons and then I'll make the adjustment to Parry.

I am thinking 1d10 Nodachi with Deadly and Parry and a 1d10 Naginata with Reach and Parry (both Uncommon). Guns probably will get added too.

That way, there is more support on the weapon side of the Class


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Alright updates:

- I have added the new weapons rules for this version of the drifter:

1. Naginata/Nodachi were added as uncommon Martial Weapons

2. Uncommon weapons of the Firearm group were added, which are the One-shot Pistol, Two-shot Pistol, Revolver, and Rifle

3. Advanced Firearms were added, which includes only the Lever-action Rifle

4. Craft Ammunition Skill Feat was created for Gunslingers that start with it and anyone else that can afford to take the Skill Feat (only requires training in Crafting and Firearms).

5. "Clips" were created which have special reload values and rules

6. Loaded Trait was added to supplement weapons that come with multiple ammunition slots (similar to Cozzymandias "Loading") and are supplemented by using Clips (or using standard reload for single ammunition).

7. Attachment weapons were added, which work similarly to Shield Bash with the exception that they require an Interact to change grip to use the melee portion (but only a Release action to go back to standard weapon usage). These include Bayonet, Pistol-hilt, and Rifle-hilt.

8. I added the first dedication Feat for Drifters and the text involving what Drifters of the respective Classes might choose the base Class. More than likely I am going to remove Steely Demeanor's resistance on the Dedication feat, as this is likely the reason the Swashbuckler's benefits are not unilaterally on one ability (so they can be separated). This is leading me back to treating Grit/Steely Demeanor separately, and Grit absorbs the Perception/AC bonus. Leaving as is for now, but likely to happen.

9. Lastly, I made the changes I had talked about to Two-handed Parry which is now "Exceptional Parry". It no longer grants weapon the Parry trait, only augments the Parry action while under the effects of grit and restores grit if your opponent misses an attack against you while benefiting from Parry.

This should at least make the Class feel "full" and playable at level 1 now that weapons are at least there for usage.

Happy Gaming all


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Re-added Contributions and special thanks section as well as the Film and Adaptations section because I believe both are important points of recognition.

Made the earlier mentioned change of moving the Circumstance bonuses to AC and Perception back to Grit and off of Steely Demeanor to ease the implementation of the Drifter MCD (and mirror the Swashbuckler). Also added missing prerequisite ability scores.


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Updates and Class Feats level 8

General Updates:

1. Added Trackless Movement to Level 6 Class Feats

2. Adjusted existing Discharge actions that allowed you to regain grit on certain conditions to instead be worded as "you do not discharge grit", so that feats that rely on holding grit (Longshot and the new Patient Return) are not interrupted.

3. Various clean up on wording/spelling

4. Grit AC/Perception bonus now under Grit as mentioned in prior posts for separation consistent with Swashbuckler (for MCD purposes and Feat purposes).
______________________________________

Returning Level 8 Class Feats

Blind-fight - Was on the original Drifter by Cozzymandias, made sense to make a return as an iconic Drifter thing.

Modified Level 8 Class feats

Bloody Demise - I had a lot of problems with the original "Blood Spray" feat which was level 2 and had insanely powerful effects but I respect that the idea of "blood everywhere" is something we've seen in some depictions of Drifters (Samurai X, Hateful 8, etc.) so I introduced essentially what amounts to a higher level version of "You're Next" that is at least paying homage to the original.

Coilspring Stance - Returning almost exactly but removed the +2 to attacks made with reactions, as I feel that being able to make 2 reactions is plenty powerful on its own and it encouraged using Return the Favor over other reactions in a way that didn't make sense.

New Level 8 Class Feats

Patient Return - This one is in honor of Henro and in the same vein as Longshot in that it encourages grit holding. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to the attack from Return the Favor for each turn you start with grit up to a maximum of +3.

Steely Resistance - Discharge ability that allows you to change your physical resistance into energy resistance of the same value when you are targetted with an effect that deals energy damage. Reduced to half Steely Demeanor's value against Force effects

Uncanny Dodge - This is a level 10 Rogue MCD Feat and a level 10 Shadowdancer feat, but I really feel like they deserve access to this ability just a bit sooner than that (I could almost see them getting it by default at 3 like Barbs/Rogues, but they feel pretty "full" at the moment and I don't want to over-tune)

Weapon Changes

1. Reduced the "Hands" from 1+ on One-shot pistol and Two-shot pistol to 1

2. Reduced the Bulk on One-shot pistol to L to more align with its nature as a concealable weapon

______________________________

Side notes for further updates:

- I have been toying with the idea of adjusting "Lasting Impact" as it feels lacking both thematically and as the major Discharge action offered to Pacifists.

- Champions provide a resistance that is untyped and only requires the damage be landing. This is a level of versatility that is not present in Drifters'. I actually think that's a good thing, but it lead to the Steely Resistance Class Feat option above. Will potentially extend damage prevention on Return the Favor in some way long term. Food for thought.

- Tempted to add "If you land a strike against a hidden enemy you gain grit" to Blind-fight.

Happy gaming!


Minor Weapon Updates:

- Changed the Melee Attachments to Firearms to just use the same attachment rules as Shields and specify the attachments.

- Naginata was added with Gods & Magic and was already statted and is not a Parry weapon, and so was removed

- In Naginata's place, added the Saintie (a traditional Parry weapon polearm) so the Exceptional Parry line has more support. It is a 1d10 P weapon with Deadly 1d10, Parry, Trip, Uncommon traits.


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One of my players feels the rifle may be too strong, but I disagree, given its a reload weapon. He at least thinks the volley 10 might be a bit too small.

Again, I think it's fine where it is. I assume you actually spent time on making it, so where do you think it lies powerwise?


Grankless wrote:

One of my players feels the rifle may be too strong, but I disagree, given its a reload weapon. He at least thinks the volley 10 might be a bit too small.

Again, I think it's fine where it is. I assume you actually spent time on making it, so where do you think it lies powerwise?

There are three reasons why I believe the Rifle is fine as is, and the main one isn't immediately obvious:

1. The Rifle is a two-handed weapon with a reload of 1, this is different than a Bow in a major way. In order to load a two-handed weapon, you actually have to release a hand to reload the weapon. That means Fire, Release, Reload, Re-grip is required if you want to be armed between turns. It also means you basically can only fire a Rifle once per turn unless you have a Level-action Rifle (which in my mind, is a level 2 weapon at least similar to Full-plate).

2. The Volley trait of 10ft is actually a bigger deal than it appears for two reasons. One, because the best way to maximize your ability to use the Rifle is to actually be able to use it in Melee (so you have a second attack you can actually use) AKA Fire, Stride, Strike (with the hilt), which means that if you ever want to take advantage of a two-strike turn, it comes with the caveats of being within a range that you need to move out of to shoot. Ala Fire, Stride, Strike, turn 2, Release, Running Reload, Regrip, Fire

Drifter Specific:

3. Return the Favor has a range of 20ft, and even with the Class Feat longshot (which requires holding Grit) you can only get it up to 60ft, so 10ft Volley and 100ft Range weapon is confined within a pretty tight space as a Gunslinger. Not to mention, in order to use Return the Favor you have to perform the cycle mentioned in 1 which is a pretty heavy tax.

My suspicion is they didn't realize that a two-handed weapon with a Reload of 1 actually requires 2 actions to Reload, because to me that's almost bad enough to not use it at all. If you compare it to firing two arrows with Composite Longbow, it doesn't really come out ahead unless your to-hit is high enough.

In my mind, the action economy on the rifle is so tight that to non-Gunslingers it basically serves as a "one-shot" ranged weapon, which is sort of how I envisioned it.

I would certainly be open to hearing where their concerns are though, perhaps I overlooked something.

EDIT: Tell your player thanks regardless, realized the table for Lever Action Rifle was using the wrong gold and level and was listing range at "2".


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To be fair, I ALSO missed the 2 hand vs 1+ distinction. Thanks for pointing it out.


Grankless wrote:
To be fair, I ALSO missed the 2 hand vs 1+ distinction. Thanks for pointing it out.

And it may be a point of contention to where the weapon is actually in need of a slight buff IMO for that reason, potentially even upping the damage die a step (especially when you consider a Bow can get +2 to damage if you have 18 STR), but I was weary of making a 1d12 weapon with 100ft range for fear of people carrying a single-shot Rifle to start most combats, so we are where we are.

But I think I'm comfortable saying that a Rifle is fine as is when you consider upgrading to a Lever-action Rifle is the most likely outcome for a Rifle-using Gunslinger (or even a Fighter in this case) long term, which helps with the action economy.

I want to say thank you to your player and yourself for the analysis and if you choose to playtest/use the class, I welcome any and all feedback so I can make adjustments accordingly :)


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Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.

Source: reload rules. https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=228

I think we both messed up here - crossbows are 2h and not 1+. I think reload on the rifle just straight doesn't work the way you intended. Oops.


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Grankless wrote:

Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.

Source: reload rules. https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=228

I think we both messed up here - crossbows are 2h and not 1+. I think reload on the rifle just straight doesn't work the way you intended. Oops.

Interesting, I thought this was the purpose of 1+ but I guess I can see how that differs (use of Shields and unarmed).

I am reluctant to change the volley to be any larger both because realistically 10ft is as much volley as it should be punished and it makes it pretty incompatible with Return the Favor unless you get Longshot and hold grit.

Tell your player thank you. I will go ahead and up the Reload value to the appropriate "2" for both Lever-action Rifle and Rifle (Clip value will remain the same on Lever-action though) since the intent was always to take 2 actions to reload.

I do wonder if it needs it considering how much it stifles the action economy but I'd like to see how it functions in play first.

Live and learn :)


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Midnightoker, I have to say: you did a realy good job. I noticed a wording problem in the Honed Technique gunslinger benefit - currently it is unclear if the Reload action is part of the reaction.
If it is indead what you have intended, the following wording would be better: "[...] with the Return the Favor reaction, you may make a single Reload action as part of the reaction".

It is a small corection (if any), but at least to me, important. Thank you very much.


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Rushniyamat wrote:
Midnightoker, I have to say: you did a realy good job.

Thank you :) I appreciate it, but a lot of credit goes to the collective here too.

Quote:

I noticed a wording problem in the Honed Technique gunslinger benefit - currently it is unclear if the Reload action is part of the reaction.

If it is indead what you have intended, the following wording would be better: "[...] with the Return the Favor reaction, you may make a single Reload action as part of the reaction".

It is a small corection (if any), but at least to me, important. Thank you very much.

I have updated the wording and also added the following lines for dealing with multiple Reloads (so it explicitly works between turns for all weapons without the need for GM adjudication):

"If you land a successful Strike with the Return the Favor reaction, you may make a single Reload action as part of the reaction on the weapon used for the Strike of Return the Favor. If the weapon used for this Strike requires more than one Reload action, you can perform the additional actions required to Reload on the following turn."

I will mark you as a Contributor as well :)

Are you planning to use the Class or just browsing?


I am browsing it. I not planning to use it (Lately I haven't had the oppurtunity to play and I am a Forever GM - I prefer to play face to face and I don't meet experienced players frequently), but if I will I will give you feedback.

Did you think about a class path that specializes in bows? I am sure players who don't or do play in worlds with advanced technology would like to play a archer with fast reflexes and steady hands who doesn't play dirty like the Outlaw.

Edit: I noticed another error: the Combat Grab feat has the 2 actions icon but it should have the 1 action icon.


Rushniyamat wrote:
I am browsing it. I not planning to use it (Lately I haven't had the oppurtunity to play and I am a Forever GM - I prefer to play face to face and I don't meet experienced players frequently), but if I will I will give you feedback.

Understood.

Quote:
Did you think about a class path that specializes in bows? I am sure players who don't or do play in worlds with advanced technology would like to play a archer with fast reflexes and steady hands who doesn't play dirty like the Outlaw.

I will have to think on the matter. The more important thing about Drifter's is not necessarily the weapons they use, but the themes they evoke.

So I'd be trying to think of what kind of "themes" would be a good Class Path. The fact that it would allow the use of Bows would be secondary.

I might be able to flex the "Gunslinger" into "Marksman", but the additional nod to Guns is a big theme of the class.

Food for thought.

Quote:
Edit: I noticed another error: the Combat Grab feat has the 2 actions icon but it should have the 1 action icon.

Corrected :)


Midnightoker wrote:
Rushniyamat wrote:
I am browsing it. I not planning to use it (Lately I haven't had the oppurtunity to play and I am a Forever GM - I prefer to play face to face and I don't meet experienced players frequently), but if I will I will give you feedback.

Understood.

Quote:
Did you think about a class path that specializes in bows? I am sure players who don't or do play in worlds with advanced technology would like to play a archer with fast reflexes and steady hands who doesn't play dirty like the Outlaw.

I will have to think on the matter. The more important thing about Drifter's is not necessarily the weapons they use, but the themes they evoke.

So I'd be trying to think of what kind of "themes" would be a good Class Path. The fact that it would allow the use of Bows would be secondary.

I might be able to flex the "Gunslinger" into "Marksman", but the additional nod to Guns is a big theme of the class.

I suggested an additional class path to bow users because none of the current class paths' mechanichs work well for lethal damage bow users. I am not fond of the "Marksman" idea either - it doesn't allows to play with the gunslinger narrative freely.

Maybe you should play with the idea of an archer who dashes into the choas of battle and uses it bow in close range and mid-range: I imagine the batle of Gondor scene in "Return of the King" when Legolas fights but with less movement. Shortly, an archer who enters the choas instead of standing in its edge.


Rushniyamat wrote:


I suggested an additional class path to bow users because none of the current class paths' mechanichs work well for lethal damage bow users. I am not fond of the "Marksman" idea either - it doesn't allows to play with the gunslinger narrative freely.

Maybe you should play with the idea of an archer who dashes into the choas of battle and uses it bow in close range and mid-range: I imagine the batle of Gondor scene in "Return of the King" when Legolas fights but with less movement. Shortly, an archer who enters the choas instead of standing in its edge.

I think my argument against would be that Legolas is almost certainly not a Drifter.

There are certain niches in the game that I feel need a slight bit of protecting, and the Drifter as a Class concept slips just between the cracks of Swashbuckler, Ranger, and Rogue. My version borrows from Champion too, but the "feel" versus Champion is a lot more departed in terms of themes. It is attempting to be the inverse of Swashbuckler/Champion at the same time (Inverse of Champion thematically, and the inverse of Swashbuckler mechanically).

I think, to be honest, if I were to make a Class specific path for Bows that it would likely step too closely on the Rangers niche.

My goals for this Class are always going to be with respect to the themes, and I don't know that I've seen a "Drifter" that uses a Bow in a way that would require a brand new Class path (I know you personally don't like Outlaw, but for instance even Robin Hood would fit there or with the Ranger pretty comfortably).

I hope you can understand my position.

I might introduce a Class Feat that helps support the weapon in a grit cycle, but more than likely that's as far as I'd go as I see things now.

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