Ultimate Combat and Expectations


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So here is the shimmy:

After one thread erupted in the Gunslinger discussion about what people expected from the Ultimate Combat, it was said that comments on it should be placed in the products section so I am continuing that.

Here is what came up:

-- Spells in Ultimate Combat

-- Skills needing bump

-- Casters getting combat viability while Non-casters stay in the non-magical or special ability zone

Professor Cirno hit the nail right on the head for me basically when he said the following:

Quote:


Quote:
Right, because clerics and druids aren't expected to get in the thick of battle. It's not like they have d8 hit dice or an average BAB or medium armor or anything like that.

<-- SKR

And they already have an enormous number of tools to do that.

Clerics can easily grab heavy armor with a single feat. They can boost their BAB in any number of ways already.

Druids have the full wildshape option going for them.

Even wizards have plenty of tools. The entire transmutation school gives them a plethora of options on how to mix it up in a fight. Failing that, they can stick to conjuration and literally pop fighters out of thin air.

In fact, I'll ask you in turn: Are they expected to get into the thick of battle right next to fighters? Because if they are, then what's the purpose of a fighter?

Quote:


How many "really good at combat" wizard builds are there? How many of them make you at least as good as a fighter or barbarian?

<-- SKR

There should be zero.

Do you know what the answer should to "I want to make a character that's good at combat maneuvers?"

"Make a fighter."

If wizards or clerics or druids are as good at fighting as fighters are, then what's the purpose of the fighter? To be a cleric that can't cast spells?

Quote:


But it's good that you assume that "more spells" automatically means "it's all about wizards and not for the other classes that are actually expected to get a sword to the face now and then." Because what this thread needs is more panic and exaggeration.

<--SKR

Like I said, if I was wrong, then mea culpa. It's my mistake! I maintain that the distinction extends to clerics/oracles and druids, however.

By all means give us new paladin and ranger spells. I love those! And a few more spells for bards to mix it up in combat wouldn't be bad either!

But wizards and sorcerers, clerics and oracles, and druids? They already have enough toys. We can give the other classes toys, now.

So I ask this:

What do you expect from the Ultimate Combat? What did you hope or expect to see?

(PS keep the ninja, samurai, and gunslinger stuff out of here there are other forums for that)


Further variability with present combat maneuvers would be welcome. New maneuvers are cool, the ones introduced in APG, but further building on what they do would be interesting. Example: tripping an opponent can hamstring them, reducing speed, or grappling allows you to hog-tie an opponent after pinning them.

'Martial arts feat trees, finishing moves, and combination feats' - having different feat groups (combat, critical, metamagic) so that you can introduce new mechanics, like martial arts, or completely disregard them. Even if we have 30 different types of feats, your GM can say "No stances or domain feats in my game, martial arts included".

Weapons with inherent abilities. Stuff like bonus abilities to trips or disarms. And a variety of special materials, like 'heat-stone' that makes crits deal an extra 1d6 fire, or 'cold-forged' armor that gives energy resistance 5 cold. New and unusual weapon/armor magic effects are nice, 'slotted gems' that differ from magic enhancements. A 'weapons of legacy' type of equipment is cool.

A system of inherent bonuses that replaces the 'big 6' magic items, along with a new wealth-by-level chart to coincide with this change. Or even a 'ability-by-level' chart that replaces boots, gloves, etc., so that you can play a game where, as you level up, you gain abilities associated with the various magical slots of your character. A way to get along in high level games w/o magic items. This is the hardest one to do, and probably requires too much work.


WarColonel wrote:
grappling allows you to hog-tie an opponent after pinning them.

Grappling can already do that.

Silver Crusade

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WarColonel wrote:


A system of inherent bonuses that replaces the 'big 6' magic items, along with a new wealth-by-level chart to coincide with this change. Or even a 'ability-by-level' chart that replaces boots, gloves, etc., so that you can play a game where, as you level up, you gain abilities associated with the various magical slots of your character. A way to get along in high level games w/o magic items. This is the hardest one to do, and probably requires too much work.

THIS, so much.

Especially if such a system accounted for class-specific flavor and mechanics. Anything to make it feel more like the character's strength came from the character rather than his gear. I'd buy a book for that option alone if it were available.

Evolving weapons would also be very nice. Weapons of Legacy may have had its issues, but it recognized the desire for a character to have their special _____ that they carried through their adventuring career rather than just tossing it aside the moment something with more bonuses came along.


WarColonel wrote:


A system of inherent bonuses that replaces the 'big 6' magic items, along with a new wealth-by-level chart to coincide with this change. Or even a 'ability-by-level' chart that replaces boots, gloves, etc., so that you can play a game where, as you level up, you gain abilities associated with the various magical slots of your character. A way to get along in high level games w/o magic items. This is the hardest one to do, and probably requires too much work.

This is hardly specific to COMBAT, since it applies to ALL characters including full Casters just about equally, right? So why would Paizo put it in ULTIMATE COMBAT? I can see it in some `advanced campaign design` or `advanced GM techniques`, but not in Ultimate Combat.

What I`m looking forward to in ULTIMATE COMBAT: Some love for Bludgeoning Weapons.
They`re pretty much always sub-par, and even Paizo`s Critical Deck gave them short shrift.
I want to see them be a valid choice at all levels of the game.

Also: Re-publishing, possibly with any minor Errata that is needed, Feats from other Golarion sources is something I´d be happy to see. Alot of regional sources have material that isn`t ALL that region-specific, and could easily be published in UC. Rhino Charge is one off the top of my head.

Also: Skillful Fighter - It can be done even better than the 3.5 version, though that`s a great start.
Fearless Fighter - Another one that I`d love to see, we don`t need more versions of applying Weapon Training the exact same way to a specific sub-set of weapons while `specializing` in a Fighting style... Fighters get lots of Feats for that. Why not amp up `Bravery` to the max, giving an option for Fighters better prepared to shrug off/ignore/delay magical and mind-effecting effects?

Mountless Cavalier options... and Cody` Houndmaster Cav Archetype from Superstar is just about publishable already, a little bit of tweaking and that would be a very popular option IMHO... Alternate versions like `Hawk Master` or whatever would be great as well.


Quandary wrote:
Alternate versions like `Hawk Master` or whatever...

Hawk Master? Cmon Quandary... Falconer. Yea, much cooler.

Liberty's Edge

Quandary wrote:
This is hardly specific to COMBAT, since it applies to ALL characters including full Casters just about equally, right? So why would Paizo put it in ULTIMATE COMBAT? I can see it in some `advanced campaign design` or `advanced GM techniques`, but not in Ultimate Combat.

I think there's a pretty big gap between combat only and caster only classes in terms of who is more reliant on magic items. A level 20 wizard has an array of spells to protect himself. A fighter has his magic armour, along with all of his other protective items. For the wizard, magic items mean he doesn't have to cast so many spells. For the fighter, magic items mean he can stay alive/in the fight.

Now while it may be better suited for another Gamemastery Guide style book, Ultimate Combat is still a good place for it in my opinion.


How about instead of progressions that add in the bonuses, simply rules for having the bonuses imbued into a character. From magical tattoos, to rune carvings, to ceramic bone lacing and muscle replacement :). Or more like the Runelords series of books, though without the sapping from others.

And what fighter or barbarian wouldn't love to walk around with skin as tough as their favorite armor?

I know 3.5 had rules for enchanting a monk's natural weapons, which is pretty similar.

This could potentially drastically limit the usefulness of sunder, and perhaps disarm; but isn't that what new rules are for?

I would like to see LESS NEW combat maneuvers, and MORE uses for existing ones. Unlike with spells, there is a much smaller opportunity for existing characters to make use of interesting feats, whereas a scroll is just X gold away.

Grand Lodge

I'd like to see a "militant" mage type, one that could get some movement towards Eldritch Knight and better use of blast'em or combat magic without dipping into Fighter.

Yes I know we got the Magus and Arcane Duelist, but sometimes you want to play a Wizard who can try to mix it up some if push comes to shove.

Scarab Sages

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Quandary wrote:


Mountless Cavalier options... and Cody` Houndmaster Cav Archetype from Superstar is just about publishable already, a little bit of tweaking and that would be a very popular option IMHO... Alternate versions like `Hawk Master` or whatever...

This sums up want I would like (at this point) to see. I love the concept of the Cavalier, but the concentration on mounted combat limits it so much for certain campaigns, even PFS isn't really set up for it.

Grand Lodge

Oh... and more monk stuff too

Sczarni

As little material as possable dealing with new spells, theres already a book for that, i dont want to see stuff that should have been in the Ultimate Magic in the Ultimate Combat.


I hope they do a TO9S martial arts styles.

For.example
Fighters could learn any style.
Rangers/Rogues could only learn Tiger Claw or Stone Dragon or Shadow Hand
Cavaliers could learn Stone Dragon and White Raven
Pallys could Learn the divine one (forget the name)
Monks could learn setting sun, stone dragon
Barbs could learn Stone dragon only

Classes would be able to trade something for it- like quigong monk.

NO 3/4 OR FULL CASTER CLASSES CAN LEARN THEM!! say it requires too much dedication to fightingor something.

Dark Archive

Quote:
NO 3/4 OR FULL CASTER CLASSES CAN LEARN THEM!! say it requires too much dedication to fighting or something.

Rather than stating that the attack bonus requirement should be higher like 6+ or 11 to where the option looks to expensive for the other classes. Or a high bab and a high fort save are needed for the feat, bab6 and fort6 this way the feat doesn't explicitly force out a class but makes it very hard for non combat classes


STR Ranger wrote:

I hope they do a TO9S martial arts styles.

For.example
Fighters could learn any style.
Rangers/Rogues could only learn Tiger Claw or Stone Dragon or Shadow Hand
Cavaliers could learn Stone Dragon and White Raven
Pallys could Learn the divine one (forget the name)
Monks could learn setting sun, stone dragon
Barbs could learn Stone dragon only

Classes would be able to trade something for it- like quigong monk.

NO 3/4 OR FULL CASTER CLASSES CAN LEARN THEM!! say it requires too much dedication to fightingor something.

As much as I love the Tome of Battle, it's not part of the SRD, and Paizo can't use it in any direct way. Also, there's a lot of haters out there, so I doubt something like that would ever come out from Paizo anyway. Meleers can't have nice things, after all...


You don't have to call it TO9S names?

Make them Schools of Fighting

Any Full BAB class may gain a fighting school move by using a regular feat, Bonus feat or may also trade a class feature.

(you'd need a list of what was tradeable)

Fighters for example could swap bravery, wpn training 1,2,3,4 or Armor Training 1,2,3,4 or equivilent archetype ability.

I like the idea for moves requiring a certain BAB and Fort Save level (that way other classes can take them but not many or as early- only melee classes have Full BAB and High Fort.)

White Raven Type moves could be 'Battle Commander'
Stone Dragon could be 'Overloaded Strike'
whatever...

The recharge mechanics were clunkly- just make it 'each move is usable 1/encounter, plus you may make a number of extra moves (of any style) equal to your con bonus.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Kind of late in the day for a thread like this. Considering that UC is coming out at GenCon, it's beyond the "set in stone" stage by now.

Dark Archive

Disciple of Sakura wrote:
... Meleers can't have nice things, after all...

Hopefully this whole book addresses that.

I didn't deal with the TO9S that much but some people stated it was too powerful other stated it seems out of the theme of a fighter.

Paizo if wanting to do something likes this I'm sure they'll make it very balanced.

As far as the theme I understand that the abilities would be Supernatural Abilities and the class would be like the ranger, paladin, or magnus but without the ability to cast spells and instead the class would do some amazing tricks, like the Qinggong Monk. I can see paizo doing something like that.

But supernatural or magical attacks seem like another book, this book (UC) looks to be more mundane, in a good way.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Souphin wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:
... Meleers can't have nice things, after all...

Hopefully this whole book addresses that.

I didn't deal with the TO9S that much but some people stated it was too powerful other stated it seems out of the theme of a fighter.

Paizo if wanting to do something likes this I'm sure they'll make it very balanced.

As far as the theme I understand that the abilities would be Supernatural Abilities and the class would be like the ranger, paladin, or magnus but without the ability to cast spells and instead the class would do some amazing tricks, like the Qinggong Monk. I can see paizo doing something like that.

But supernatural or magical attacks seem like another book, this book (UC) looks to be more mundane, in a good way.

A lot of the (in my opinion justified) hate for Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords is due to a relatively small set of maneuvers.

For the most part, I have little trouble with the book. On the other hand, there's always iron heart surge ... plus, for example, the abilities that healed your party when you smacked someone always struck me as breaking suspension of disbelief.

Dark Archive

ToB classes weren't more powerful than fighters, they were more versatile.
I would not call a chain tripper or ubercharger weak. More like bland and boring.

I hope the fighting styles are better than words of power and that UC contains less copypasted material than UM (Humans of Golarions seems to suffer from it, too).


Quandary wrote:


Also: Re-publishing, possibly with any minor Errata that is needed, Feats from other Golarion sources is something I´d be happy to see. Alot of regional sources have material that isn`t ALL that region-specific, and could easily be published in UC. Rhino Charge is one off the top of my head.

I also hope about that, i think that feats like rhino charge, dervish dance and piranha strike should be in a rules book.


gbonehead wrote:

A lot of the (in my opinion justified) hate for Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords is due to a relatively small set of maneuvers.

For the most part, I have little trouble with the book. On the other hand, there's always iron heart surge ... plus, for example, the abilities that healed your party when you smacked someone always struck me as breaking suspension of disbelief.

Whereas I loved the Devoted Spirit discipline and the Crusader. They're my favorite parts of the book. It depends on how you flavor it, but if you consider HP as less wounds and more exhaustion, it's perfectly reasonable that someone could be skilled at lifting spirits and making the other PCs see that they don't have to give up and die in a fight as he continues to pound on the enemy. OR, the character is channeling minor amounts of divine power into his allies to restore their vitality. Either flavor is very cool, and it allows you to play a healer who doesn't have to stop having fun fighting to actually patch up his allies.

I liked Iron Heart Surge, too, actually. Heroes shake off status anomalies through sheer determination and coolness all the time in fiction. That maneuver pretty much does the same.


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What do I hope for or what do I expect? :-)


gbonehead wrote:

A lot of the (in my opinion justified) hate for Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords is due to a relatively small set of maneuvers.

For the most part, I have little trouble with the book. On the other hand, there's always iron heart surge ... plus, for example, the abilities that healed your party when you smacked someone always struck me as breaking suspension of disbelief.

For what it's worth, the healing abilities were all under the Divine school, which was explicitly supernatural. Think of it as a version of Lay On Hands that involves punching.

As for iron heart surge, pretend the flavor text was it "You keel your head back and shout "By Crom, I will not let you defeat me, vile sorcerer!" Because that's exactly what they were going for ;)

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Disciple of Sakura wrote:
gbonehead wrote:

A lot of the (in my opinion justified) hate for Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords is due to a relatively small set of maneuvers.

For the most part, I have little trouble with the book. On the other hand, there's always iron heart surge ... plus, for example, the abilities that healed your party when you smacked someone always struck me as breaking suspension of disbelief.

Whereas I loved the Devoted Spirit discipline and the Crusader. They're my favorite parts of the book. It depends on how you flavor it, but if you consider HP as less wounds and more exhaustion, it's perfectly reasonable that someone could be skilled at lifting spirits and making the other PCs see that they don't have to give up and die in a fight as he continues to pound on the enemy. OR, the character is channeling minor amounts of divine power into his allies to restore their vitality. Either flavor is very cool, and it allows you to play a healer who doesn't have to stop having fun fighting to actually patch up his allies.

I liked Iron Heart Surge, too, actually. Heroes shake off status anomalies through sheer determination and coolness all the time in fiction. That maneuver pretty much does the same.

I take it you are a player :)

And yes, thematically I can see the healing working if played right.

Iron heart surge, on the other hand:

"GM: You're in an anti-magic field ..."
"Player: Wow, that stinks. Well, on my turn the effect ends on me, and I'll cancel the field outright..."

later..

"GM: Okay, so you're poisoned and ..."
"Player: Bummer. Well, on my turn I'll just nullify the poison ..."

later..

"GM: So the evil cleric casts earthquake, make a Reflex save ..."
"Player: Okay. I fail my save. And darn, I fell into a fissure ... I'll die when it closes! Well, on my turn I'll just cancel the earthquake."

(GM gives up and sends character into Tomb of Horrors where the character finally dies due to no-save sleep gas.)

Disease, energy drain, earthquake, entangle, Evard's black tentacles, geas, grease, ice storm, kelpstrands, poison, reverse gravity, tsunami, web ... pretty much any effect that doesn't prevent you from moving and isn't instantaneous can be outright canceled by this level 3 maneuver.

What player wouldn't like it?

ProfessorCirno wrote:
As for iron heart surge, pretend the flavor text was it "You keel your head back and shout "By Crom, I will not let you defeat me, vile sorcerer!" Because that's exactly what they were going for ;)

Which is great in a novel, but less great when you've got a 5th-level character who can do that to all sorts of unrelated effects. And that's why I issued one of my rare house-rulings that iron heart surge does not end the effect, it merely ends its effect on you. Still way too powerful, but at least somewhat limited.

Anyways, this is a huge derail.

What I really want to see from Ultimate Combat is things that are not like the Antagonize feat. I want things that are minor in power, flavorful, and do things we haven't seen before.

For example, the monk stuff in Ultimate Magic was cool. A system of maneuvers that doesn't slip in stupid stuff like iron heart surge would be cool. Something like the skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel would be cool. Having the three biggies (Gunslinger, Ninja and Samurai) be full base classes would be cool. Synergy feats that reward multiclassing would be cool (like the Ascetic Stalker and Swift Hunter feats). Though I know I won't get the last one - preferred game design in Pathfinder seems to be to reward single-classing/subtly discourage multi-classing.


I'd like to see a Rogue archetype that gives up Sneak Attack for Bombs, and can use a smaller number of Bomb Discoveries as Rogue Talents.

Take THAT Alchemists!

Gun Archetypes for all or most martial themed classes (Fighter(Assuming Gunslinger is it's own base class), Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, Ranger, Inquisitor, Paladin, Cavalier).

Since it seems that a couple (or more) casters will be getting things in UC, have those new class options not take away focus from the rest of the book. And any new spells that are in the book take up a very small amount of space.

An expansion to the list of feats a monk can take as bonus feats at each level. (This is something that should have been present in Ultimate magic as well)


I'm really hoping for an increase in options or combat maneuvers, especially more extraordinary versions that can stay viable in later levels.

Also combining combat maneuvers with skill use. Again I bring this up, climbing a T-Rex or Giant or the Big-T comes to mind as something not yet full established in the rules. It wouldn't be super hard to merge climb with a CMB check. A system for adjudicating such things would well worth the page count.

It think what I'm really looking for is something for combat classes in the level range of 8 to 12 that brings them a degree of versatility without direct magical support from their caster buddies.


ProfessorCirno wrote:


For what it's worth, the healing abilities were all under the Divine school, which was explicitly supernatural. Think of it as a version of Lay On Hands that involves punching.

As for iron heart surge, pretend the flavor text was it "You keel your head back and shout "By Crom, I will not let you defeat me, vile sorcerer!" Because that's exactly what they were going for ;)

sure prof? IIRC, Devoted Spirit was extraordinary unless noted, and there were heals (Ex) sadly. My only great beef with the book (I used Warblade and Swordsage and i think they were generally well made, even if I prefer an idea of scaling feats as an ideal for a number of reasons).

IHS was poorli worded, but needed.

Fighter needs something like that - a scaling of bravery expanded to more effects, capping to an IHS effect (call it "call to battle".

Is uselees being the top DPR, if you pass half the time under some effect.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Kaiyanwang wrote:

IHS was poorli worded, but needed.

Fighter needs something like that - a scaling of bravery expanded to more effects, capping to an IHS effect (call it "call to battle".

Is uselees being the top DPR, if you pass half the time under some effect.

Yep, it was sorely needed, which made its flaws all the more apparent - my guess is it was just a case of a writer thinking that coolness would trump clear writing and intent, with failure as a result. Paizo is not immune to this, unfortunately (yes, Antagonize, I'm looking at you), but they're much better.

I don't like "mettle" for the same reason. Did we really need to give a class Evasion for all Fort and Will saves?

In any case, I'm expecting Ultimate Combat to be fully as cool as Ultimate Magic. Which means I expect it to be awesome, I expect it to have a bunch of typos (just like any written work), and I expect it to have a few things that could be considered as broken if not used carefully.

Liberty's Edge

Kaiyanwang wrote:
Is uselees being the top DPR, if you pass half the time under some effect.

I respectfully suggest that you never play pvp in Guild Wars.

You spend literally 80% of every match blind and slowed. And yet, when you finally get the one moment of well timed condition removal and get off your attack chain, crushing the dude who's been blinding you all match with sheer aggression, it is the most satisfying feeling ever. EVER.

*I realize that MMO games are not the topic of discussion here.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Jeremiziah wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
Is uselees being the top DPR, if you pass half the time under some effect.

I respectfully suggest that you never play pvp in Guild Wars.

You spend literally 80% of every match blind and slowed. And yet, when you finally get the one moment of well timed condition removal and get off your attack chain, crushing the dude who's been blinding you all match with sheer aggression, it is the most satisfying feeling ever. EVER.

*I realize that MMO games are not the topic of discussion here.

Heheheh

It's all about payoff. As a GM, you write hundreds of encounters and dozens of plotlines, all for that payoff where the players get truly engaged and have a great time.

Not that they're not enjoying it the rest of the time, but when everything clicks into place - those games are magical.

Not sure what that has to do with my expectations of Ultimate Combat, frankly :)


gbonehead wrote:


Heheheh

It's all about payoff. As a GM, you write hundreds of encounters and dozens of plotlines, all for that payoff where the players get truly engaged and have a great time.

Not that they're not enjoying it the rest of the time, but when everything clicks into place - those games are magical.

Not sure what that has to do with my expectations of Ultimate Combat, frankly :)

Agreed. There are times when it's just perfect. It is about your expectations for UC, because you expect that UC will add to those moments. I do :)


gbonehead wrote:
I take it you are a player :)

Don't we all play? Even the DMs?

In full disclosure, I DM more often than I play, and I have never gotten to play a Warblade. As much as I might like to. I've only twice gotten above third level in a game, or advanced at all had the game started above first level. That's why I DM - I'll stick with the game through and through.

I am curious to see Ultimate Combat, but the way Paizo's been going about firearms in general, and digging in their heels over mechanics that just don't work right from the get-go, I have reservations. I'll probably buy a .pdf of it and take advantage of the printer in my office at work to get the bits I actually like.


Jeremiziah wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
Is uselees being the top DPR, if you pass half the time under some effect.

I respectfully suggest that you never play pvp in Guild Wars.

You spend literally 80% of every match blind and slowed. And yet, when you finally get the one moment of well timed condition removal and get off your attack chain, crushing the dude who's been blinding you all match with sheer aggression, it is the most satisfying feeling ever. EVER.

*I realize that MMO games are not the topic of discussion here.

I guess in case of the fighter someone else drops the opponent with a well timed persistent flesh to stone.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Disciple of Sakura wrote:
gbonehead wrote:
I take it you are a player :)
Don't we all play? Even the DMs?

Absolutely. But the game I'm playing is different than the game the players are playing, and it has different goals (from my side of the table). Rare is the game where the GM's goals and the player's goals are identical, except in the most general sense, i.e. "have fun" or "complete this module." That's why there's so many things out there that players love and GMs hate, and vice-versa.

However, I believe thare are things that it's valid to dislike ... and not because they make my job harder. Lots of things make my job as a GM harder, and the biggest one is experienced players who know their characters - not exactly something it's valid to complain about.

On the other hand, low-level, easy to acquire abilities that negate entire swaths of possible obstacles - those I find it easy to dislike, and I feel that I'm justified in doing so. It's the same reason I dislike Clever Wrestler, the mettle class ability, Master of Many Forms' immunity to all transmutation effects, and the absolute nature of freedom of movement.

On the other hand, the Luck feats that give an auto-20 once a day, the special ability of Legendary Dreadnaught to be the only thing in the game that can break a wall of force, and Devastating Critical - these have a reasonable cost for aquiring them, are pretty focused, and I have no problem with them.

So I guess my point is that things in Ultimate Combat should have focus and cost. Something that is overly general and/or under-costed becomes a "must have" item for players, and if it's so good that players consider taking level dips in a class just to acquire that ability (which I have found to be the case with iron heart surge), I'd say it's not a well-designed ability.


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I'd really like to see options that offer some flexibility to feat-based characters. It seems really unfair to me that spells are generally better than feats and yet they can be changed with relative ease.

I've experimented with a feat chain the let martial characters swap out a limited number of combat feats after 1 hour of practice, and it worked really well. I'm sure Paizo would have a different approach to the same problem, but it is something that I feel UC should address.

Also, we are coming to a point where the number of feats available is ridiculous compared to the number of feat slots, and there are dozens of feats that I think should actually just be combat options — these tend to chew up feat slots for most characters because they are either too good or too costly for allowing something that should be free.

I'd also like to see Exotic Weapon proficiency be re-cast as something more like Equipment Trick.

So far, I'm very impressed by how UM has addressed certain issues, I look forward to seeing what they come up with for martial PCs. Mark my words, the stakes are higher. They gave a book to the casters first, and it is going to be very tricky to bring the martials back into balance without over- or under-doing it.


The number one thing I want in the book -- to the point where I will only buy the book if this is present -- is a system of options (or even a set of archetypes) that allow martial characters to be front-line fighters while not wearing any armor at all and not putting DEX through the roof like a rogue. In a great number of human cultures in our world, warriors wore no armor, carried a shield, and used a melee weapon -- I want to be able to do that as a fighter, as a paladin, as a cavalier and a ranger. If Ultimate Combat doesn't have that, I ain't interested.


A feat similar to what gunslinger currently have that allow a monk to decrease the cost of a ki-ability.

Just to throw a bone to the new Monk archetype from UM.


alt rules to grant mounts class levels instead of the druid companion deal.


sanwah68 wrote:
Quandary wrote:


Mountless Cavalier options... and Cody` Houndmaster Cav Archetype from Superstar is just about publishable already, a little bit of tweaking and that would be a very popular option IMHO... Alternate versions like `Hawk Master` or whatever...
This sums up want I would like (at this point) to see. I love the concept of the Cavalier, but the concentration on mounted combat limits it so much for certain campaigns, even PFS isn't really set up for it.

Big Than Life. I want it.

Mountless Cavalier Option.

And more Combat Manouvres. And Martial Arts.
And More No magic Combat Option.


I want options that will augment my barbarian/fighter capacity to crush his enemies, see them driven before him... and to hear the lamentation of their women.

Some combat style feats could be great too, like the combat styles in KotOR II and the Witcher (I and II). Right now we already have Power Attack (offensive combat style) and Combat Expertise (defensive combat style), but we need a combat style that is good against many opponents/weak against a single opponent and a combat style that is good against a single opponent/weak against many opponents.

I want a feat that let me deflect an arrow with my sword, no improved unarmed strike required.

I want a mage killer archetype for the barbarian/fighter/ranger.

I want a scoundrel archetype that uses guns for the rogue (rogue gunslinger).

I want an monk archetype that replaces flurry of blows by something else.

And yes, like all of you, I want a cavalier archetype without a mount.

Liberty's Edge

I'm hoping for:

* Feats that allow fighters to deal damage with combat maneuvers (i.e I bullrush/trip/disarm you, you take normal weapon damage and get bullrushed/disarmed/tripped).

* Rules for fighting huge and gargantuan creatures that allow fighters to do the classic "stab it with my sword and then hold on for dear life" trick.

* Mountless cavaliers (i.e KNIGHTS), though I read the playtest for the Samurai and this might work as a mountless cavalier.

I hoping against:

* Tons of new weapons which are broken.


Gailbraithe wrote:

I'm hoping for:

* Feats that allow fighters to deal damage with combat maneuvers (i.e I bullrush/trip/disarm you, you take normal weapon damage and get bullrushed/disarmed/tripped).

Yeah that would be great. Awesome Blow should also be avaible for medium character. :)


+1 for the Houndmaster Cavalier.
More Cavalier/Samurai orders

More kick a$$ rogue talents- none of this 1/day crap. Assault leader should have been 1/per 4 levels. Stuff that let's you fight effectively every round but with rogue style!! Maybe something that let's you perform a trip when an enemy misses you.

Make monks be able to go AVATAR on your a$$. (Quigong monk is close)

Make Magus get a Jedi kind of archetype- give up spells but layer telekinetic effects on your opponents similar to the Force Unleashed games


Once/per combat fighter only special moves

Give up bravery and gain a new special move whenever bravery would increase: Note-these are NOT feats and cannot be taken by other classes.

Cleaving Assault- Fighter 4. Until the end of your NEXT turn-attacks made against a Target affect other squares adjacent to that enemy(provided you threaten them) Foes in those squares take damage equal to half your damage roll if the attack roll hits their AC.

Stubborn Resolve- Preq, fighter 2. Whenever fail against a Spell that allows a save, you can, as an immediate action make another save against that spell. You must take the result of the new save. Reguardless of sucess, using this ability is taxing and you are sickend for 1rd per spell level resisted.

Tripping Swing- preq- fighter 10. Once per combat as part of your attack roll you can swing one of your weapons in a low spinning arc against every square you threaten. Foes hit by this attack must make a CMD check orbe knocked prone. Your receive a +1to your check for every 5points of damage you inflict. This attack does not provoke AOO'S.

Grappling Headbutt- Whenever you make a check to break/maintain a Grapple you can Headbutt your opponent as part of the check. Your deal damage equal to 1 1/2 times your Str mod and add +2 to the CM check.

Kipping attack- when you are knocked prone, you can as an immediateaction, Kip up to recover your footing, bringing your weapon/s down in anover hand slash. Make either a Single two handed attack (If fighting to handed) or a Primary/offhand attack with both your weapons (if TWF- TWR applies even if you have received it this round).
Kipping attack does not provoke AOO'S.

Some really kick a$$ stiff like this.


More racial weapons would be neat. Speaking of which, there should be some manner of archetype, feat chain, and/or prestige class that lets halflings get more mileage out of slings.

Oh, and more non-magical ways to augment weapons and armor. Maybe new qualities like "spiked" and "serrated" that can be added to certain weapons for a price.

A lot of the other ideas in this thread are good, but I like the "bomber rogue" archetype the best.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Xenophile wrote:
More racial weapons would be neat. Speaking of which, there should be some manner of archetype, feat chain, and/or prestige class that lets halflings get more mileage out of slings.

More than in Halflings of Golarion?


Weapon specific feats as good as Dervish Dance for the "not-scimitar."


STR Ranger wrote:

Once/per combat fighter only special moves

Give up bravery and gain a new special move whenever bravery would increase: Note-these are NOT feats and cannot be taken by other classes.

maybe a sort of correspondence of alchemical or magic discovery but for the warriors?

you can drop a feat or a particular ability for a special manovr with a particular weapon or in a particular condition?


Gregg Helmberger wrote:
The number one thing I want in the book -- to the point where I will only buy the book if this is present -- is a system of options (or even a set of archetypes) that allow martial characters to be front-line fighters while not wearing any armor at all and not putting DEX through the roof like a rogue. In a great number of human cultures in our world, warriors wore no armor, carried a shield, and used a melee weapon -- I want to be able to do that as a fighter, as a paladin, as a cavalier and a ranger. If Ultimate Combat doesn't have that, I ain't interested.

I can think of no such real world culture which has not been subjugated by an armor-wearing culture once the two came into contact.

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